It Is Legal, But Is It Ethical...

[+Team Aspenoro]

I am looking for some opinions to assist me to determine how I should feel on this topic. I would very much appreciate no flaming. With that in mind, I trust that you do not think the following is flaming on my part.

 

In our state, we have 40 state parks. They are funded by daily park passes ($5), annual park passes ($55 reg, $37 sen.), and some trickle down money from the state treasury obtained by taxes. There are two recent constitutional amendments that, on one hand limit tax increases unless approved by the majority, and on the other hand require an increase in school funding each year. State Parks and some other government agencies sit right at the crossroad – read “waiting for their budget reductions.”

 

Now we have a very large State Park on the outskirts of the state capitol city, that has graciously approved at least eleven cache locations. (There is an assumption there regarding approval by the State Parks. Rumor has it that the cache owners will have to file for approval each year starting next year.) There are two primary vehicle-access gates. There is one parking lot at the edge of the park awaiting a gate – read “awaiting funds”. There are many other ways into the park – walking, bicycling, etc.

 

Here is the “gotcha” – the State Parks are maintaining this beautiful park as best they can given the funding cutback. At the same time, we have cache hiders utilizing the park to hide caches. One problem – on their cache pages on this website they are giving very clear directions to parking places outside the park where geocachers can park and search without supporting the park system financially. It is not illegal as far as I know.

 

If folks think that geocaching is a low-profile activity, think again. I found out about geocaching from a seasonal park ranger!

 

or -- I'm ready

[+Mastifflover]

While not illegal I don't agree with trying to side step the park fee. If the same park charges a fee to hide caches in the park that would be a different story.

[+LETaylor]

Question. Do they charge people who enter on foot at the regular entrences, or only those who bring in a vehicle? If pedestrian travel is free, then there's hardly an issue. If on the other hand, they are charging everyone who enters, then there could be an ethical question.

 

It may also be that they only charge for some of the "premium use" areas.

 

Your sense of community responsibility is nice, but you might be making up restrictions where none exist. More information is needed about the park rules.

[+joefrog]

Is it $5 per CAR, or $5 per person? The difference could add up! Just be sure to add that tidbit to the cache page.

 

Around here, the cost for the state parks is usually about $2 per person, and well worth the $.

[+The Leprechauns]

Organizing a CITO event at this park, if you haven't already, would be a great way to say thank-you for cooperating with geocachers. Right at the end of the event, when the budget-strapped park manager is grinning ear to ear next to the huge pile of trash that his staff never had time to clean up, well, that would be an ideal time for you to mention the parking issue. "Yep, that was quite a haul. Makes up for the fact that sometimes geocachers walk into the park instead of driving in and paying the day fee, doesn't it?"

 

Apart from that idea, I say, don't raise the issue with anyone unless the general public is discouraged or prohibited from accessing the park in the manner suggested on the cache pages.

[+Team Perks]

If their policy is to charge per vehicle, then there is no harm in going in on foot. If we can legally get out of paying a park fee by walking a couple hundred extra feet, I hardly feel inclined to spend the money...

[+briansnat]

Can and do hikers, bicyclists, birders and other nature lovers access the park from this point? If so, then why not geocachers?

 

Is there a rule stating that you must enter through the gate and pay? If not, then I don't see the problem. What most of that fee they are collecting goes toward is paying for the upkeep of the facilities that the drivers use. The roads, parking lots, rest rooms, trash removal, pavillions, lifeguards (if there is a beach), etc....

 

As a geocacher, you aren't even using these facilities. You walk in, find the cache, maybe pick up a few beer bottles and leave.

 

Personally, I don't see an ethical issue here and if the park really had a problem with it, theyd' have a ranger at all the trailheads collecting money, or would have fences and signs posted.

Edited June 8, 2004 by briansnat

[+Criminal]

You know, if you tug at your hair while you worry about this your hair will fall out much faster.

 

People who park just outside the gate to avoid the fees are exercising their constitutional right to protest those fees. Who are you (not you personally) to say it's immoral? I know of some radical Bostonians who actually had the nerve to pollute the Boston Harbor with tea while protesting a tax!

[jdoe]

Vehicles cause wear and tear on the environment. If the park doesn't charge for people walking in on foot, then you should not have a problem. On the other hand, if they do charge for pedestrians and the cache description essentially tells them to go though a hole in the wall/fence to get into the park, then I would agree that this is a problem.

[+Rogue_monkey]

Pay the fee, they let you cache in the park which is more then some parks do. and think about it would you rather find caches in a park, or urban caches because these parks have been turned into housing complexes. i pay if i have to and if there is voluntary pay, they give you a park to play in so give them the suport and thanks they need.

[+flask]

at many parks there is a day use fee whether you bring your car or not. if the fee is only for parking and you are not using the parking area, there's no problem.

 

..unless the outside parking areas aren't fully legal.

 

for instance, i know of one public use area where it is only legal to park four or five cars, and yet people regularly park a dozen or so. the landowner (it is a privately owned peice of land that is open to the general public for recreational use.) is starting to get in trouble frequently with the town in which the property is located because of the wear on the shoulder and the complaints of the neighbors. the landowner is considering dropping large concrete blocks and not allowing ANYONE to park there, ever.

 

this isn't just a piece of land that allows people to come and use it. the landowner specifically purhased the land FOR the use of climbers, hikers, bikers, and everybody. everyone is welcome to use the land for no fee. they just don't want more than six cars parked there.

 

the only way to know about any special circumstances is to ask. it's best not to advise people to flout the intent of the land managers.

[+Renegade Knight]

There is no issue here. Everyone who is required to pay a fee is, and everyone who doesn't need to isn't.

 

I think there is a bigger issue with automaticly throwing more money at schools. I moved from a poor school district to a richer one. The system in the richer distict is worse. Go figure.

[+wildearth2001]

Organizing a CITO event at this park, if you haven't already, would be a great way to say thank-you for cooperating with geocachers. Right at the end of the event, when the budget-strapped park manager is grinning ear to ear next to the huge pile of trash that his staff never had time to clean up, well, that would be an ideal time for you to mention the parking issue. "Yep, that was quite a haul. Makes up for the fact that sometimes geocachers walk into the park instead of driving in and paying the day fee, doesn't it?"

 

Apart from that idea, I say, don't raise the issue with anyone unless the general public is discouraged or prohibited from accessing the park in the manner suggested on the cache pages.

I was gonna suggest just that, but add one thing

 

hold a fundraser before hand to raise money to build the gate, then when you show the land manager the pile of trash(and he is smiling), tell him you have one more thing to do, and start to unload the stuff for the gate. Even if it is just a simple gate, they will appreciate it a lot

[AC Student]

I hid this cache within a local fee-for-vehicle-entry park. Pedestrians and bicycles can enter the park for free. The park is a wonderful resource for the community and is short on funds for basic upkeep. In the cache page I suggested parking outside the entrance to avoid the fee. I have no guilty feelings about it. In fact I would feel that I was doing a disservice to fellow geocachers if I didn't give free parking advice.

[+Stooper and B.]

We live in a State with a similar fee system: day pass or annual pass per vehicle and trail pass per bike rider (only on the trails). You can walk or bike the roads for free.

 

Now, even though the fees are set up and justified by saying they go towards the upkeep of the facilities, the actuality is the fees get dispersed throughout the entire park and park system. It is certainly your right to avoid these fees by not bringing your vehicle into a park, but you are using it to some degree. If you pay/avoid paying that's your choice, but I would encourage all who use the parks to give a little back.

 

If you do avoid paying, consider giving to the park Friends group or voluteering your time. This way you ensure your money or efforts go directly to the park.

[+Renegade Knight]

As an aside to this topic. A lot of cachers who formerly didn't buy year passes for the park systems often start doing so.

[+Rogue_monkey]

I hid this cache within a local fee-for-vehicle-entry park. Pedestrians and bicycles can enter the park for free. The park is a wonderful resource for the community and is short on funds for basic upkeep. In the cache page I suggested parking outside the entrance to avoid the fee. I have no guilty feelings about it. In fact I would feel that I was doing a disservice to fellow geocachers if I didn't give free parking advice.

if the park is short on fees why not pay the fee so they can clean up this "wounderful resource for the community" they let you cache there pay the fee and give back to the park and let it be a clean place to cache.

[Earthdog Patrick]

Our state facilities have main gates that charge daily fees to get into areas that have beaches, other facilities, camp sites, etc. But you can also access them from other facility parking, Scenic Lookouts, Boat Ramps, Model airplane fields, Archery ranges, shooting ranges, hunter parking ,etc. , and it it perfectly fine to use these parking areas to get in--you may have a long hike to the gated area facilities, however. At one State park, the gatehouse guard let a carfull of us in for free when we told him we were just Geocaching--he even told us where to park to get to the trailhead to search for the cache...

[AC Student]

I hid this cache within a local fee-for-vehicle-entry park. Pedestrians and bicycles can enter the park for free. The park is a wonderful resource for the community and is short on funds for basic upkeep. In the cache page I suggested parking outside the entrance to avoid the fee. I have no guilty feelings about it. In fact I would feel that I was doing a disservice to fellow geocachers if I didn't give free parking advice.

if the park is short on fees why not pay the fee so they can clean up this "wounderful resource for the community" they let you cache there pay the fee and give back to the park and let it be a clean place to cache.

I did pay the parking fee when I hid the cache. I needed to scout out a hiding spot and didn't know how far it would be from the entrance. It ended up being just a quarter mile. Seekers can either drive in and pay the fee or park outside the entrance and walk or bike in for free. I suppose if someone really wants to help out the park he or she could pay the fee even if walking in, or could pay more than the required $4 if driving in.

 

From the logs it looks like most everyone is choosing the free option, which is what I would do when seeking a cache. I believe that I already pay more than enough in taxes to support the local park system, if the government wouldn't spend the money unwisely on some of its other expenditures. Also as a general rule I choose not to pay for anything that is offered for free, which is why my avatar label is merely 'geocacher' rather than something clever.

[jdoe]

if the park is short on fees why not pay the fee so they can clean up this "wounderful resource for the community" they let you cache there pay the fee and give back to the park and let it be a clean place to cache.

If a park is short on fees then the park should do something about that. If the park doesn't charge pedestrians to enter the park, then they should. If it is just a matter of "cleaning up" then volunteer/community groups should be rally together to clean up the parks.

[4Mergansers]

One one hand: If you lived two blocks away from the park, would you feel inclined to purchase a parking pass to visit it, even if you walked to it each time?

 

One the other hand: If you lived in that house two blocks away from the park, would you be ticked at all the people parking in front of it to avoid the parking fee?

 

I believe in the right of the individual (in this case to protest the parking fee) up to the point it starts to infringe upon the rights of other individuals.

 

Also, I need more hands.

[+Renegade Knight]

One one hand: If you lived two blocks away from the park, would you feel inclined to purchase a parking pass to visit it, even if you walked to it each time?

 

One the other hand: If you lived in that house two blocks away from the park, would you be ticked at all the people parking in front of it to avoid the parking fee?

 

I believe in the right of the individual (in this case to protest the parking fee) up to the point it starts to infringe upon the rights of other individuals.

 

Also, I need more hands.

We have a University downdown here in Pocatello. They have been growing and students like to park free in the surrounding neighborhoods. At some point the people complained and now you have to have a special city parking pass to park in these neighborhoods.

 

The university in it's wisdom has decided it doesn't like the free on street parking on a main roadway through town. One that doesn't infringe on these neighborhoods. They put forth a proposal for funding to do this project and fully expect the students to protest it. This university though doesn't really seem to listen to the community or it's students.

 

In the case of the neighborhood there was a valid issue whether or not the solution is universially agree on. In the case of the main street parking, The university is taking very careful aim at it's foot with a large gun. It the funding is provided they will wonder later why the students hate the administration, why the community is angry over spending half a million dollars to eliminate parking and move a sidewalk to dark areas so women feel less safe on the streets, and why business owners are reluctanct to sponsor the university who just stole some of the parking used for their own businesses.

 

What does this have to do with the park? They face similar issues at times and do similar things to protect the surrounding neighborhoods. But sometimes they take very careful aim at their own feet and don't even notice until they pull the trigger.

[+Rogue_monkey]

you all make very remarks to what i have said. about pitching in and doing the clean up and the gov and wasting money.

 

i guess in the end what i'm saying is i wouldn't list just the free parking spots. in fact i would list the fee spots and say that there is other parking around. don't get me wrong i like free stuff but i also like hiking in parks better then cities. i quess why i pay the fees is because where i live the money goes back to the parks and you can see that while visiting different parks under the same management.

[+All4OfUs]

As an aside to this topic.  A lot of cachers who formerly didn't buy year passes for the park systems often start doing so.

We did this. We saw some caches descriptions that called for a parking permit and after determining how much the pass was, we went ahead and bought one. We didn't want to miss out on caches just because we didn't have a pass. Just our bit to help the park system out.

[+Runfrog]

pay-up chumps and then enjoy all of colorados fine parks..... it costa a lot of money to maintain these parks due to their usage.. colorado residents included not just wacky eastcoasters trying to find the old west.. it don't exist pardner.. pay the fee

[GeoWorms]

The situation here in CA is the same--they only charge for parking, not for park access. Of course, the fee goes to park upkeep, not parking lot upkeep.

 

I look at it the same way I look at premium membership. You can use the park for free, you can use geocaching.com for free. If no one went the extra mile to support them, they wouldn't be as nice as they are. On the other hand, no one who won't/can't pay should be forced to.

[+Alan2]

Save your hair. If your concience tells you to pay the fee, do so. And let others decide for themselves.

 

Alan

Edited June 10, 2004 by Alan2

[+haggaeus]

If the park has a visitors center, there usually is a donation box or a gift shop - you can support the park there without even having to drive and park.

[+norbu]

I'd pay, but I tend to be lazy, and paying gives me a safer spot for my car, often with more trees for shade and company. Most parks, it is a very low, per car fee. Parking inside also lends itself to spending more time in the park for other activities, or more caches, as it is usually a more central locale, or at the very least it cuts down on walking time.

I won't get political/financial/moral about it, but think about it, taxes or fees...until other major changes happen, is there another choice? I also agree with making donations, even when you don't have to.

what you give will come back. intent counts.