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More Drama By Duane (upinyachit)


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I'm no lawyer, but the more I look at TBs like this and that silly monkey TB, I think stuff like this may eventually get geocaching.com in trouble under the Children's Internet Protection Act. The only way around that will be exactly what most of us have argued against; mandatory, verified membership. If TPTB want to host TBs, caches, user profiles etc that appear to violate that act, they will need to limit users of the website to adults.

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Am I missing something here? Does every log get scrutinized by TPTB or, is it just Duane's logs that are under the microscope? Who is spending all that time and energy?

 

I sure hope I don't ever have to face that kind of harrasment.

 

If someone were to see my username in a log, they could be offended, unless they looked at my profile, they would not understand the usage of "hooker".

 

Why should I have to explain that? It is my username, and that's the way it is.

 

JayBee (aka JayBee_One_Kanobi)

May the farts be with you.

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and third but definitely not last, Are we really becoming the United States of the OFFENDED? What happened to freedom of speach, freedom of expression?

Yes, and remember that a web site is free to exclude things like this if they want.

 

Aren't you glad you live in America.

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<snip> It wont be long before the TB's will now be moderated as well since there are people with 1. Bad taste. 2. Easily offended by bad taste. Myself I could care less if I saw the tb's that are "questionable" Kids see it everyday (unless constipated), and many more say it. </snip>

So by this logic we should allow kiddie porn TB's too right? Or is "THE MAN" gonna censor those too?

 

The word doesn't belong in the TB name.

 

The inference doesn't belong in Duane's screenname.

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If someone were to see my username in a log, they could be offended, unless they looked at my profile, they would not understand the usage of "hooker".

 

Ive been told that, in Spanish my username has a completely different meaning. "Is that what you intended?" I often hear. NO. I dont speak Spanish, and dont care what it means there.

 

So, what does Pto really stand for/mean?

 

Why should I have to explain that? It is my username, and that's the way it is.

 

Exactly. IM just glad the offended crowd didnt take Spanish 101......

Edited by Pto
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The Miller test comes from the U.S. Supreme Court's 1973 decision in Miller v. California. It creates a three-part test to determine if an item is obscene. All three parts must be satisfied. Note: Most pornography does not meet this test, and is not legally obscene. The test asks: (i) whether “the average person, applying contemporary community standards” would find that the work, taken as a whole, appeals to the prurient interest,

(ii) whether the work depicts or describes, in a patently offensive way, sexual conduct specifically defined by the applicable state law, and

(iii) whether the work, taken as a whole, lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value. Miller v. California, 413 U.S. 15, 24 (1973).

But it looks to me like the subject of this thread has more to do with indecency than obscenity. "Prurient appeal is an element of the obscene, but the normal definition of "indecent" merely refers to nonconformance with accepted standards of morality. . . Webster defines the term as 'a: altogether unbecoming: contrary to what the nature of things or what circumstances would dictate as right or expected or appropriate: hardly suitable: UNSEEMLY . . . b: not conforming to generally accepted standards of morality: . . . .' Webster's Third New International Dictionary (1966)." F.C.C. v. Pacifica Foundation, 438 U.S. 726 (1978).

 

Now, the government isn't involved here, and the "owners" of this particular forum have the legal right to establish whatever sort of behavioral standards they like. Which isn't to say that they should, or that more precise guidelines wouldn't be advisable. It's just to say that legal definitions aren't particularly useful in this context, except insofar as Groundspeak or GC.com might be breaking the law by hosting particular content. Indecency, however, is entitled to First Amendment protection, and any government regulation which sought to sanction anyone for the type of conduct at issue in this thread would likely run afoul of Reno v. ACLU, 521 U.S. 844 (1997). I doubt that there would be any significant opposition to moderator removal of the type of material that actually could get anyone in legal trouble.

 

All of which is to say, in short, that I doubt the Attorney General is really concerned about any of this, and Groundspeak's and/or GC.com's policies regarding moderation of content are largely left to their own judgment. The debate should be about whether or not that judgment has been exercised wisely.

 

P.S. It occurs to me--as part of that debate--that Groundspeak and GC have corporate partners, sponsors, and advertisers to be concerned about, and that we all benefit from the support that those revenue streams provide to the sport. They, in turn, have public images to protect. If those folks no longer wanted to be associated with us, for whatever reason, then we would all suffer. Just something to think about when we're considering why moderators might want to keep the forums and cache pages clean.

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and third but definitely not last, Are we really becoming the United States of the OFFENDED? What happened to freedom of speach, freedom of expression?

Yes, and remember that a web site is free to exclude things like this if they want.

 

Aren't you glad you live in America.

Yes I am Glad, don't think I could LIVE anywhere else, I am too opinionated, would probably have been shot or hung in any other country by now. ;)

 

How bout you mtm-man ;)

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So by this logic we should allow kiddie porn TB's too right?

Someone's always gotta go with an extreme to prove a point. ;)

 

Kiddie porn is illegal. Slang references to excrement is not.

Sorry, my bad. They'll just be regular porn TBs... ;)

 

My point is that this (the word) is well beyond accepted "family" standards, as Mopar and mtnman have pointed out.

 

This is not just my opinion, it's one of the words NetNanny, Yahoo! AOL and plenty of other programs zap sites for.

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P.S. It occurs to me--as part of that debate--that Groundspeak and GC have corporate partners, sponsors, and advertisers to be concerned about, and that we all benefit from the support that those revenue streams provide to the sport. They, in turn, have public images to protect. If those folks no longer wanted to be associated with us, for whatever reason, then we would all suffer. Just something to think about when we're considering why moderators might want to keep the forums and cache pages clean.

Well said.

 

It would be a shame to see the people providing the fun with the YJTB's pull the contest, wouldn't it.

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Still waiting to hear from CO Admin...

 

Personally, I don't like the fact that someone can change the words that I wrote. It's like I said something completely different.

 

IF Duane was not asked to change the text and someone just went in and did it on their own, then that's simply not right.

 

But like I said, still waiting to hear CO Admin's side of the story.

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P.S. It occurs to me--as part of that debate--that Groundspeak and GC have corporate partners, sponsors, and advertisers to be concerned about, and that we all benefit from the support that those revenue streams provide to the sport. They, in turn, have public images to protect. If those folks no longer wanted to be associated with us, for whatever reason, then we would all suffer. Just something to think about when we're considering why moderators might want to keep the forums and cache pages clean.

Well said.

 

It would be a shame to see the people providing the fun with the YJTB's pull the contest, wouldn't it.

Yet, Yahoo! relies on many sponsors and their forums are a complete madhouse.

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But the Webster definition of "chit" isnt the context it's used in, now is it?

 

I rather like the Howard Stern test. If anyone has pushed the envelope, that man has.

 

Would Howard Stern be allowed to say "BaBaBooey gave me a chit for the lunch he picked up for the guests."? Probably.

 

What if he said "If you try and F with my I'm gonna get up in your chit!"?

Bet there would be a $500,000 fine going out in the mail addressed to him that afternoon.

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P.S. It occurs to me--as part of that debate--that Groundspeak and GC have corporate partners, sponsors, and advertisers to be concerned about, and that we all benefit from the support that those revenue streams provide to the sport.

Ack. Another website I used to enjoy, Flightsim.com, was quite similar to geocaching.com in the respect that most of the content of the site was created by hobbyists and amateurs and made available, for free, by the website. But as more and more advertisers took notice of the site, and as more and more corporate sponsors were lined up, the website slowly degenerated into what it is today ... basically nothing more than a shill for the advertisers and corporate sponsors. Is that what the future holds for geocaching.com?

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But the Webster definition of "chit" isnt the context it's used in, now is it?

 

I rather like the Howard Stern test. If anyone has pushed the envelope, that man has.

 

Would Howard Stern be allowed to say "BaBaBooey gave me a chit for the lunch he picked up for the guests."? Probably.

 

What if he said "If you try and F with my I'm gonna get up in your chit!"?

Bet there would be a $500,000 fine going out in the mail addressed to him that afternoon.

Only because of the "F" word, not because of the particular use of "chit" and come to think of it, The FCC has passed a ruling stating that the use of the "f" word is OK unless it is used in the context of a sexual description. So under these new rulings, saying "F" you, or don’t "F" with me is OK as far as the FCC is concerned.

 

So I guess we can determine from this standard that the specific word doesn’t matter. What matters is how the word is used. Applied to this situation, the use of CHIT is/was wrong, but I think Upinya.... stated very clearly in his post that he was just thrown off a bit by the fact that it was changed/edited without prior notice or given the chance to change it himself. That is the point/question of him starting this post, not weather or not the use of the word should be allowed.

 

So lets all stay "on topic" here and only add something that is relevant to the subject of the original post ;) Is it "fair" or "proper" for an Admin to edit/change a cachers log entry without first contacting the cacher and giving him/her the chance to make the edit themselves?

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So lets all stay "on topic" here and only add something that is relevant to the subject of the original post ;) Is it "fair" or "proper" for an Admin to edit/change a cachers log entry without first contacting the cacher and giving him/her the chance to make the edit themselves?

If something violates the terms/guidelines/rules that this privately owned website sets forth, then I think the owners and the people they empower should have the right to remove it. (How's that for staying on topic? ;))

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So lets all stay "on topic" here and only add something that is relevant to the subject of the original post  ;) Is it "fair" or "proper" for an Admin to edit/change a cachers log entry without first contacting the cacher and giving him/her the chance to make the edit themselves?

If something violates the terms/guidelines/rules that this privately owned website sets forth, then I think the owners and the people they empower should have the right to remove it. (How's that for staying on topic? ;))

muche better and shorter ;)

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Well, let's see, I don't even know where to begin. All I know is that I paid my membership fee and bought four travel bugs from this site after two years. During the two year period, I hid quite a few caches that cost me hundreds of dollars. So my credibility should be right up there with the big dogs.

 

Anyway, I attented Sax man's campout this weekend and had a blast. During the three days my family was up in Raton, Bons handed off a Travel Bug to me called "PIECE OF @#$!". I thought that made a great joke considering my username and everyone laughed. When I got back to Pueblo, my wife and I decided to place it in The Do Drop By cache. I made a log entry and said, Decided to drop this ____ off at my favorite place.

Have fun

Upinyachit

 

The next thing I know, my log entry was edited by CO ADMIN. I understand this is a family site but geez, first of all I didn't even use the real word, I used chit. After all, it is part of my user name. My point is that he or any other mod could have PM and I would have edited myself. Maybe geocaching needs CO ADMIN, but I personally feel I am a game to him. When is the madness going to end? I thought everything was going to be fine since I paid my dues and some members were able to see how cool upinyachit really is. I also wonder why he said this when he closed my last topic?

 

"Closing this before it goes out of control and someone gets hurt. It really has nothing to do with Geocaching anyway."

 

CO Admin is right, my geocaching feelers are hurt. From the first caches in NY that you guys won't unarchive to the puzzle cache that is keeping me from listing The Runyon Cache. All I am saying is that I thought bygones were bygones, but it appears Co Admin just won't lay off.

 

Well, off to work. Hopefully this will be a civil discussion without any hasties out there. Maybe someone out there has the true answer.

 

Duane

Upinyachit

Duane,

 

You do love your drama, so the simple answer is: You already knew the true answer. You have had lots of conversations with members of Groundspeak and the volunteers and have been asked in many ways multiple times to stop using the word 'chit'. Yet you continue to do so, and then complain when someone does something about it.

 

If it is confusing to you as to why you are allowed to continue to have the username 'upinyachit' but not able to use the word 'chit' then we can make it simple. Change your username. But quit pushing this button, it is getting tiresome.

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You agree not to:

(d) Upload, post or otherwise transmit any content that infringes any patent, trademark, trade secret, copyright or other intellectual property or proprietary rights of any person, including without limitation under any privacy or publicity rights.

 

So when should we expect to see reviewers removing all items fitting that description from cache/travel bug pages, profile pages, avatars, logs, etc.?

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You agree not to:

(d) Upload, post or otherwise transmit any content that infringes any patent, trademark, trade secret, copyright or other intellectual property or proprietary rights of any person, including without limitation under any privacy or publicity rights.

 

So when should we expect to see reviewers removing all items fitting that description from cache/travel bug pages, profile pages, avatars, logs, etc.?

shhhhh

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If something violates the terms/guidelines/rules that this privately owned website sets forth, then I think the owners and the people they empower should have the right to remove it. (How's that for staying on topic? ;))

On topic, good. Leaves the legitimate side issue though. Yes, they do have that right. And so they should! But, surely, along with that right, goes the moral obligation to apply the rules evenly across the board.

We are told, when we ask for some change in the terms (read rules) that, as forum members, we are a very small percentage of the caching population. Yet the word in question is banned from the forum. When I 'quoted' a section of the cache page that triggered this, the image was removed in less than a minute. When I say removed I mean 'removed from my forum post' - it remained on the cache page for sometime after. I haven't checked the bug page. Neither am I going to - this whole thing is starting to bore me.

I am not a Duane fan in the broad meaning of things but it does look to me that too many people are using the guy for entertainment. Setting him up for a fall.

He has been asked in a couple of posts here to take the step of changing his user name. (one of those was mine) It's up to him to do that or not. The double standard that is apparent in this matter may not have been deliberate. Lets wait for CO Admin to have his say before getting too worked up.

And how about we slack off a bit till then at least?

 

edit for spelling... Why can't speel chuckers know when I mean 'off' and when I mean 'of'?

Edited by bug&snake
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(d) Upload, post or otherwise transmit any content that infringes any patent, trademark, trade secret, copyright or other intellectual property or proprietary rights of any person, including without limitation under any privacy or publicity rights.

 

I guess this applies to my Avatar as well. And Mopar's Avatar. Actually about half of the avatars.

 

One person pushes a little bit. Then mass hysteria ensues. Next thing you know none of us can watch the Simpson's because 1 old lady in Any town, USA was offended by a fart joke and instead of changing the channel, wrote a letter to the FCC.

 

I would hate to think I have to lose my avatar over a poop joke, which actually was pretty harmless. If dear cachers, you are offended by this, then I suggest you fix yourself a cold beverage and go watch the sunset because perhaps your spun a little tight.

 

I am a long, long way from accepting Duane's attitude, methods or behavior. I have mercilessly flamed the man on several occasions. But Duane has every right, paying member or not, to question TPTB when he feels he is being treated unfairly. Should it be a Forum topic? Not in my opinion. However, I fully support his right to ask the question.

 

Duane, it's your bed dude. You made it and you have to lie in it. Changing your name would help people be more accepting of any changes you have or are making. But that my friend, is your choice alone.

 

Can't believe I just argued Duane's point. Isn't that one of the signs of the Apocalypse?

 

It's a Travesty, a sham, a mockery. It's a travashamockery! ;)

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Am I missing something here? Does every log get scrutinized by TPTB or, is it just Duane's logs that are under the microscope? Who is spending all that time and energy?

 

Duane lives in Colorado these days. CO Admin, oddly enough, also lives in Colorado. It's not a big surprise CO Admin would see one of his log entries.

 

As for the rest, well ... Other site users (Criminal comes to mind) are often able to express themselves in a manner that totally goes over the heads on the younger geocachers while still amusing the more 'worldly' adults out there.

 

Perhaps the problem here is a lack of imagination.

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BTW, regarding profanity, you have to look at the big picture.

 

If it is allowed then eventually this site will fall under sites that have to be screened out by some IP's because of the content.

 

Example: I'm sure there are a lot of AOL users out there. It would be a shame if more AOL users never saw the site because the content was deemed to be offensive by AOL.

Ya know until you brought that up, I never thought of it in that context, but it makes sense.

 

Use any profanity enough on a site, and eventually the adult content has to ring an alarm.

 

Thanks Mtn-man

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I can just picture some southern belle opening an ammobox, placing the back of her hand to her forehead, fanning herself with the other and stating “My delicate sensibilities have been offended”! before fainting.

 

I think several of you need a big whack with a Get Over It! stick.

 

And Duane? Stay away from the light! I’m not sure you’ll enjoy the company all that much.

Oh, I forgot to mention...sometimes when I'm caching, I see real doggy doo-doo! (Uncontrollable sobbing)

...and I see dead animals sometimes too - so now I can make models of them and put them in caches?

 

Just because things CAN be done doesn't mean they HAVE TO BE. That is the line that we call common decency.

The point of novelty poo is to delight the sophomoric and offend the prudish. You know where I stand.

 

As for censoring TB’s or logs, gc.com gets the final decision, not you or me. But to debate the social merits of a novelty item is laughable if not ridiculous

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I did not want to, BUT, guess I have to put something in. First Duane's "handle"... DON"T CHANGE IT !!! when I first saw it, I read the "ch" as in CHeck, not caCHe, after all it is the beginning of the syllable. ;)

 

Just for your clarification

 

UPINYACHIT

 

UP

 

IN

 

YA (your)

 

CHIT ( )

 

Has nothing to do with caching or checking.

 

;)

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If someone were to see my username in a log, they could be offended, unless they looked at my profile, they would not understand the usage of "hooker".

 

Ive been told that, in Spanish my username has a completely different meaning. "Is that what you intended?" I often hear. NO. I dont speak Spanish, and dont care what it means there.

 

So, what does Pto really stand for/mean?

 

Why should I have to explain that? It is my username, and that's the way it is.

 

Exactly. IM just glad the offended crowd didnt take Spanish 101......

Actually I thought it was Klingon... ;)

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I can just picture some southern belle opening an ammobox, placing the back of her hand to her forehead, fanning herself with the other and stating “My delicate sensibilities have been offended”! before fainting.

 

I think several of you need a big whack with a Get Over It! stick.

 

And Duane? Stay away from the light! I’m not sure you’ll enjoy the company all that much.

Oh, I forgot to mention...sometimes when I'm caching, I see real doggy doo-doo! (Uncontrollable sobbing)

...and I see dead animals sometimes too - so now I can make models of them and put them in caches?

 

Just because things CAN be done doesn't mean they HAVE TO BE. That is the line that we call common decency.

The point of novelty poo is to delight the sophomoric and offend the prudish. You know where I stand.

 

As for censoring TB’s or logs, gc.com gets the final decision, not you or me. But to debate the social merits of a novelty item is laughable if not ridiculous

Couldn't agree more. The only difference we have is in what we consider to be a novelty.

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some people make a cache look like poop, so what is wrong with a cache that looks like poop. As for everything else being discussed in here, i plead the 5th

I would find a cache that looks like this in the exact same light I would find a TB that looks like this one.

 

"To be immature, unnecessary, and in bad taste."

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1st, I want to apologise to Duane for being part of this problem. I really thought giving the bug to him would be funny and wouldn't start anymore insanity. I was wrong. I'm sorry.

 

2nd. Duane's log received a lot more attention than I would expect. I see the bug has been edited since I held it but I have a fear that Duane's log in his own cache was edited long before that bug was. It definately was edited a lot more quickly. I'm assuming and hoping that that fear is completely off base. Nevertheless, I do have that fear. And I'm sorry but I can't belive my logs and everyone else's logs get the same going over his get. Is it really worth the admin's time to watch him so closely?

 

Really, I think it's time that the site itself gets an editing feature. If **** is a bad word then **** shouldn't be stored in the database. The database should do that job for the admin. It shouldn't be a part of the admin job to read certain logs and sanitize it for everyone's else's protection, especially when it's apparently not their job to read the travel bug names.

 

And yeah Duane, I think it's time you changed your name to Duane. Because at this point you could walk on water and be blamed for comparing yourself to Jesus. You're a nice guy, but it took meeting you to realize how nice of a guy you are and unfortuantely there's too many people who aren't ever going to get that chance.

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Hi Duane! I am going to stay out of the whole editing argument. I just want to add my vote for you to change your name. It just causes too much angst. You know I hate angst! All that angst cannot be good for you either! Change your name, calm down, and be a happy cacher! ;)

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(d) Upload, post or otherwise transmit any content that infringes any patent, trademark, trade secret, copyright or other intellectual property or proprietary rights of any person, including without limitation under any privacy or publicity rights.

 

I guess this applies to my Avatar as well. And Mopar's Avatar. Actually about half of the avatars.

Key word there is INFRINGE.

Most companies understand and allow non-commercial, unedited, personal use of logos and trademarks. They understand that free publicity by fans of their products is good. GC.com allows it. Automotive manufacturers allow it. Even record companies that will sue a 13yr old girl for downloading a MP3 bythe teen idol de jour have no problems with that same girl making a fan website.

When the company stopped using the logo over 20yrs ago there is even less of an issue.

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three things, i think:

 

1) duane's name: i don't think your kids will get it. i still don't get it. it looks like "up in yachit" to me. i just assumed that "yachit" was a place in minnesota or something.

 

2)the TB does not strike me as offensive.

 

3)where can i get one? i've been wanting to start a TB like that for MONTHS, only i had a different name.

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(d) Upload, post or otherwise transmit any content that infringes any patent, trademark, trade secret, copyright or other intellectual property or proprietary rights of any person, including without limitation under any privacy or publicity rights.

 

I guess this applies to my Avatar as well. And Mopar's Avatar. Actually about half of the avatars.

Key word there is INFRINGE.

Most companies understand and allow non-commercial, unedited, personal use of logos and trademarks. They understand that free publicity by fans of their products is good. GC.com allows it. Automotive manufacturers allow it. Even record companies that will sue a 13yr old girl for downloading a MP3 bythe teen idol de jour have no problems with that same girl making a fan website.

When the company stopped using the logo over 20yrs ago there is even less of an issue.

Do you have their "express written consent"? Then it legally is an infringement. But you are correct, Daimler Chrysler will probably prosecute you for using it. But that does not mean it is not a legal infringement of the copyright laws that protect it.

 

and yes, this is off-topic ;)

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(d) Upload, post or otherwise transmit any content that infringes any patent, trademark, trade secret, copyright or other intellectual property or proprietary rights of any person, including without limitation under any privacy or publicity rights.

 

I guess this applies to my Avatar as well. And Mopar's Avatar. Actually about half of the avatars.

Key word there is INFRINGE.

Most companies understand and allow non-commercial, unedited, personal use of logos and trademarks. They understand that free publicity by fans of their products is good. GC.com allows it. Automotive manufacturers allow it. Even record companies that will sue a 13yr old girl for downloading a MP3 bythe teen idol de jour have no problems with that same girl making a fan website.

When the company stopped using the logo over 20yrs ago there is even less of an issue.

So, you mean if it is not messed with it is OK?

FUBAR.jpg

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The topic is about editing logs and, directly related, proper names for users and for travel bugs. Further discussion of the intellectual property rights aspects of the Groundspeak terms of use should be directed to a separate thread. If you want to continue that tangent, open a new thread. Thanks.

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The topic is about editing logs and, directly related, proper names for users and for travel bugs. Further discussion of the intellectual property rights aspects of the Groundspeak terms of use should be directed to a separate thread. If you want to continue that tangent, open a new thread. Thanks.

Wait a minute! I thought moderators jumped to immediate action and shut down threads without explanation when they got off topic!

 

How dare you try to steer a discussion back on thread and politely suggest starting a new thread for a topic debating gc.com policies!!! What is the world coming to?

 

;)

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OH THE CHILDREN!!!SAVE THEM FROM THE POO!!!!

please, who enjoys poop references more than kids. quite honestly, i'm way more offended by the born again christian leaflets i found in a cache this weekend. kids know whats funny about poop, i'd rather deal with that than explain the rightwing religous propaganda.

 

any we all know that some people love controversy and arguing about it in multi-page threads only feeds their needs.

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