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Does Geocaching Need Micro Guidelines?


Eric K
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First off, I don't read every post so if this has been rehashed please excuse me.

 

I've noticed lately there seems to be a rise of micros in areas that seem like they would be able to support a regular type of cache.

 

I think micros are nice for urban areas etc.

 

While I know the site doesn't need more rules should there be some guidelines for placing micros.

 

Maybe some kind of checklist to determine if a regular cache can be placed instead of a micro.

 

It just seems some people get pysched, understandably, about placing caches that they throw a micro in an area that could have a nice regular cache.

 

For people that cache with children the child is more excited about what's in the cache than as for an adult who may be more thrilled by the hunt.

 

Once again, PLEASE don't turn this into a bashing one type of cache thread.

 

Thanks

Eric

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Maybe some kind of checklist to determine if a regular cache can be placed instead of a micro.

 

I personally would not like any more guidelines or checklists. I would like to retain the

privilege to make that decision myself. Afterall, it is each hiders choice as to where to place a cache, and what kind it will be.

 

Making a guideline to stear people back to trads would just be similar to the "make it a point in a multi" rebuttle for virts/locationless. What if I WANT a micro there? (if it fits the current guidelines, then it should be allowed)

 

I would like to see it remain to be MY choice. That way, If I aim to please the kiddies with McToys, I'd place a larger cache. Aiming to please the adult, a micro or multi, puzzle, etc.

 

I just feel its better to allow people a chance to make thier own decisions, and keep the Red Tape to a minimum.

just my .0000 worth

Edited by Pto
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No more rules, please.

 

If you don't like hunting micros in the woods, then don't. I understand and agree with the point you made, but forcing people to place a certain type of cache in a certain type of terrain would not be conducive to the growth of the sport.

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I've noticed lately there seems to be a rise of micros in areas that seem like they would be able to support a regular type of cache.

 

<snip>

 

It just seems some people get pysched, understandably, about placing caches that they throw a micro in an area that could have a nice regular cache.

I understand your point, Eric. I like macro caches better too. It's just my preference. (I have started to make a habit of carrying some tiny trade items, that I can still leave behind in some of the larger micros, such as PVC pipes and Altoid tins.) But I don't believe that we should make rules that make it harder to place micros. Some people prefer micros, which are generally more challenging, just because they're easier to hide in wicked and malicious ways. :lol:

 

We also need to trust the judgment of the person placing the cache; there may be reasons for a micro of which others aren't aware. Are there a lot of muggles? Snoopy children? Animals? Does the ground cover disappear in the winter? And these are just a few examples of things that may be important to the placer, but not apparent to the finder.

 

Another thing to consider is that placing a well-done macro cache can require a significant financial investment, in obtaining a suitable container, necessary supplies, and a sufficient number of good trade items. I don't think it's safe to assume that every geocacher can afford to do that, especially more than once, and I'm disinclined to support rules that preclude those geocachers from placing some sort of cache when they have the creativity and initiative to lead the rest of us on a good hunt. If people find nice locations for caches, they should be able to place whatever sort of cache they feel they can appropriately maintain. They shouldn't be forced to choose between placing an poorly-done macro, or nothing at all.

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I guess I'm not going to say anything that hasn't been said, but this is one of my pet peeves. We have so few areas to place regular size caches that I hate to see it wasted with a micro (espcially if it's just a film container stuck in a cabbage palm). :lol: But... I don't think coming up with more rules is the answer. I finally realized that people get different things out of this sport, not everyone is in it for the same reasons I am. Some people really like the challenge of a well-hid micro while others prefer a regular size cache.

 

But... I just realized that I DO have something to add. In the case of the film container and the cabbage palm the first instinct of some people will be to start tearing the foliage apart looking for a tiny object (the needle in a haystack problem). Even though GC discourages this type of behavior it is inevitable that there will be some people who will ignore that in the pursuit of a find. Still, those people probably don't read the forums or the rules and wouldn't change anyway. I'm inclined to enjoy the sport as is and realize that not every cache is "as I would like."

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I think you're on the right track with this micro checklist thing. I would expand it a bit further to include what type of micro container is most appropriate for a particular location.

 

In urban areas, film cans and altoids tins should be the only micro's allowed, unless in a city park or greenbelt, in which case decon containers and pine cone caches would be most appropriate. If it's a large park with a riverbank, I would think that ammocans and tupperware should be the rule, Unless that particular municipality has an active bomb squad, in which case a new class of "urban virtual" cache would be imposed.

 

In rural areas micro's should be outlawed in all cases except for on sherman tanks, which should be magnetized mini altoid tins.

 

Outside of city limits in rural areas should be limited to 5 gallon buckets and above, except for in Idaho where only ammocans filled with quality swag would be allowed.

 

All Custom cache containers should also be pre-approved by an approver at least 3 states away to keep them a secret locally.

 

yup...thats how I'd do it :lol:

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Well now, I agree a micro in the woods is as much fun as a dental visit except at the dentist usually the dental assistant causing you pain is cute and female.

 

So I'd be all for an unwritten rule that says "No micros unless you can't possibly place any other kind of cache".

 

The reason for having it unwritten and enforced by peer pressure is that I'd hate for it to become a guideline and then a rule and then a reason to deny a cache.

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So I'd be all for an unwritten rule that says "No micros unless you can't possibly place any other kind of cache".

 

The reason for having it unwritten and enforced by peer pressure is that I'd hate for it to become a guideline and then a rule and then a reason to deny a cache.

I would agree except for the fact that unwritten rules are usually ignored anyway.

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As a newbie who wants to start hiding caches, I'd appreciate having some suggestions (not rules) about the preferable conditions for placing micros. I don't have enough experience yet to make a decent determination of that myself.

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I must offer my 2 cents on this topic. I also do not like like seeing micros in a spot that would support a regular cache. Of course if they are part of a mulit it is more understandable . My thought is that cachers place micros in the woods, because they are to cheap to put money into a regular cache. A well hidden regular cache can be a challenging cache to find.

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First, I'm not against micros, some of my best hunts have been micros. But then some of the worst are too. Many points brought up (why micro's: cost, ease, etc) are valid, but what I often see is a lack of thinking and imagination. The best example I can think of is a film can hidden at the base of a fence post, while 20 feet away was a tree with a wonderful hole in it. The whole could have taken up to a small trad (sandwhich size) cache, or several different possible ways of concealing a micro (of any size).

 

Conventional thinking can lead to uninteresting caches, no matter what size they are. Another cache I was hunting recently was well concealed at the base of a tree, nice hide, hard to find - but 30 feet away was a 20' stump that had a portion on the side that opened like a secret door, with room for a 5 gallon cache if you wanted. Let's just say if that cache is archived I know where my new cache will go...

 

So, can we make rules to make good, reasonable and proper placements? Not really, each hider and cache site is unique - some we will like, some we won't, and if anyone ever comes up with a good way to tell them apart prior to the hunt, he'll make a whole lot of friends (and maybe a few bucks). :lol:

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I am no big fan of micros but understand that sometimes they are the only things that fit.

 

I AM against micros on private property (including lightpoles and city street signs)

 

I AM against film cans in bushes. Invariably the area around the bushes gets needlessly trampled and someone's landscaping work often gets damaged. It doesn't take too many geo-cachers pawing around the courthouse lawn to tear up an area.

 

I like the "rules" stated in the Geo-caching.com guidelines and am somewhat perturbed when I see hem broken and am "illegal" cache placed. Those illegal caches all too ofen come up missing and some cacher is going to waste some time tracking down a ghost.

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As a newbie who wants to start hiding caches, I'd appreciate having some suggestions (not rules) about the preferable conditions for placing micros.

Don't place a micro in a location that a larger cache will fit.

I agree. Though a lot of us like micros (I'm not a big fan), I dislike searching for micros in the woods, especially where a full sized cache can easily go. Just found one of these yesterday. It was a nice hike, but kind of a letdown to find a film canister filled with change (no logbook you have to e-mail the owner with the amount of change to claim the find). And it was hidden in a crevice in a rock formation that easily could have concealed a .50 cal ammo box.

 

Even though I rarely trade, I still enjoy finding the box and the sense of anticipation I have when I pull it out and open it. I also enjoy going through the goodies and reading the logbook. You get none of that with micros. Even the logbook usually only fits the person's name and the date they found it. No room to write about the hunt.

 

Micros are great for urban caches and other high traffic areas, but not deep in the forest.

Edited by briansnat
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I would say get with your fellow cachers in "your" area. Find out what type they prefer to find. if you live in an area with many children go for the traditional, etc. Also look at what is in your area already. If there are 200 micros and only 30 traditionals, go for th etraditional. This is how the "unwriten" rule can work. after all if the people that you know in your area that cache are sick of 1 type, they can easily persuade others to not make more of them.

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As a newbie who wants to start hiding caches, I'd appreciate having some suggestions (not rules) about the preferable conditions for placing micros. I don't have enough experience yet to make a decent determination of that myself.

WOW...I'm an SO glad (seriously) to see one of our newcomers actually look for ideas and suggestions and guidelines for cache hiding before actually going out and making those first few hides. I wish more of our newcomers were willing to put this kind of thought into it, instead of rushing out and hiding something that "has been done umpteen times before" just to get a few "Found It" Emails.

 

Here's one experienced cacher's (mine) set of opinions on cache hiding:

 

Dave's Opinions on Geocache Hiding

 

Not an all-encompassing list, open to respectful agreement/disagreement, etc etc, but something to start with.

 

-Dave R. in Biloxi

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Just posting to all to say thanks for keeping this on topic.

 

The replies have been very interesting and most importantly NO BASHING or personal attacks have taken place.

 

I've been reading through the replies and it's always interesting to learn more than just your viewpoint on a subject.

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I don't mind micros, personally. But my kids are not thrilled with them, so we usually avoid them.

 

I do wish, however, they would relax the proximity standard for micros. We just placed a cache in a smallish park that had only one other cache in it -- a micro. We had a tough time getting far enough away from the micro location to place our traditional cache -- only made it by a hair. Therefore we had to give up the super cool location we had planned on, and just go for an average placement.

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I personally like paintfiction's approach:

 

Paint's anti-micro campaign - WIP

 

Paint's anti-micro campaign - Bend Over

 

And many others.

 

I like it for several reasons:

  • He's raising awareness of micro -vs- traditional cache hiding
  • He's being positive
  • He's issuing a challenge to other cachers to follow suit

And it's working. Just do a search for anti-micro:

 

Search for Anti-Micro caches

 

Notice that another cacher has made a contribution to the cause. I'm personally designing an ammocan hide that will be a contribution to the effort.

 

Anyway, that's my $0.02.

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Here's one experienced cacher's (mine) set of opinions on cache hiding:

 

Dave's Opinions on Geocache Hiding

 

Not an all-encompassing list, open to respectful agreement/disagreement, etc etc, but something to start with.

Dave, I gotta say that's a very measured and objective write-up. I think anybody placing their first couple of caches would be wise to consider your thoughts.

That's very kind of you to say, thanks.

 

You should have seen the original edit! In the "Location" section I had some fairly pointed rants about my experiences in certain "lame micro infested" metro areas in the South and mid-South (which have been discussed at length in other threads, so I'll spare the discussion here). I linked it for feedback on local forums in my "home areas" of Miss. and Ala. on that edit, and got some good and appropriate feedback, which resulted in the more tame/measured/objective version you see published now...still with plenty of pointed personal opinions, but more useful to a wider audience (and hence, why I've linked it here).

 

Feel free to link it (and other similar docs published elsewhere on the 'Net by other fellow cachers). If we keep making baby steps, maybe eventually we'll start to see the fruits of these labors.

 

-Dave R. in Biloxi

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I would say get with your fellow cachers in "your" area. Find out what type they prefer to find. if you live in an area with many children go for the traditional, etc. Also look at what is in your area already. If there are 200 micros and only 30 traditionals, go for th etraditional. This is how the "unwriten" rule can work. after all if the people that you know in your area that cache are sick of 1 type, they can easily persuade others to not make more of them.

Best way to handle it. The local groups are able to develop an awareness of what local land management wants and will let you get away with. The local caching groups are also better able to aide new players in cache placements.

 

Micros have a place, but its not in the woods where real caches can work. As stated earlier, even if you don't trade, there is still something about sitting near the cache and reading the old logs. Especially when the cache is one that gets people from out of the area or has been in place a while, these logs can be the best part. Micros don't do that.

 

Go to the local cache group and work towards a local understanding of when a given type of cache is desirable. GC is too big to have more rules, and local groups can discuss and come up with agreements that certain cache types are preferred for certain locations.

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While I know the site doesn't need more rules should there be some guidelines for placing micros.

What the site needs is fewer guidelines applied as hard-and-fast rules and/or fewer rules disguised as guidelines. And both rules and guidelines would benefit greatly from a rewrite by someone with a stronger command of the language.

Edited by Bassoon Pilot
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Limiting how many micros a member may place is the only way to slow down their infiltration. They are taking over the game. Pretty soon it won't be geocaching, it'll be geo-microing. I think more people hide micros because the equipment to put one together is so much easier to pack around in a fanny pack than it is for a bigger container.

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...

In rural areas micro's should be outlawed in all cases except for on sherman tanks, which should be magnetized mini altoid tins.

So weird....

 

This is completely off topic, but just today I pulled a magnetic key holder with a log in it off a tank lin a small town in Pennsylvania - some would say rural. I had slapped it on there a few weeks ago, because the thing kept haunting me as such a perfect place to hide a micro. I guess it seems like that to other people too.

 

But I never set up the cache page or went for approval. I called the VFW it was located at. While they were not totally negative about it, and I probably could have gotten them to say "ok", they told me they had surveillance cameras pointed at the tank to deter vandalism. That made me think better of the whole idea. Didn't want to set up a situation where people were getting their pictures taken.

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I would like to see two adjusments made regarding micros.

 

An icon that designates a cache as a micro, just as there are icons for virtuals, regular caches, multi's, ect. Especially for those of us who do not have memberships. Micros are becoming very common and a way to immediatly identify them when viewing a search would help. There are areas that have a very high micro population and it would be nice to screen them out with out having to read every description, especially if they have not indicated the type of container in the description.

 

The second is some sort of limit to the number one person can place. Micros are very cost effective to place, which may lead people to place large quantities of micros.

Edited by magellan315
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While I know the site doesn't need more rules should there be some guidelines for placing micros.

No. We shouldn't limit ourselves in the type of cache we can place.

I hate to sound like a real party-pooper here and I assure you I intend NO personal attack on cache_ ... _can

 

BUT!

 

How about I come to your house and place a film can in your favorite rose bush. Maybe a magnetic key holder on your porch light? Perhaps a breath strip holder placed on your bedroom windowsill? Would you still hold that opinion?

 

Would ANY cacher approve of total strangers placing caches on their property, in their driveways, attached to their garden sheds?

 

I doubt it. Then why would it ever be appropriate to place caches on other people's property when there can be no assumption that said property is owned "by the people" and available for use to all?

 

Mailboxes are owned by the U.S. Postal Service and NO approver should ever allow a cache to be placed on one.

 

Streetlights, stoplights, pedestrian crossing lights, stopsigns, speed limit signs, etc. are usually owned by the local or state utility company or street department and are intended only to be used for their primary purpose. They are NOT intended to serve as mailboxes, billboards or geo-caches. Most local governments have laws and ordinances stating thus.

 

There are cachers out there that have little concern about such niceties as remembering that bushes get trampled when caches are hidden within. They will forget that a telephone junction box is not only private property but a sensitive site from a security and community safety standpoint. They forget that the VFW is a private organization and it's displays are private property.

 

I love you guys but this game gets out of control sometimes.

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I had a long drive today in a truck with a broken radio so I had a lot of time to listen to the voices....

 

but enough about my problems...

 

Here's another angle for us to think about when we place illegal caches:

 

Suppose that Joe Cacher loads up a few dozen urban micros that some number-hungry chronic put out on mailboxes, lightpoles, etc. Joe Cacher happily marches out to find said cache.

 

--At a mailbox a postal inspector sees him reeaching underneath for that Hide-A-Key and replacing it. Said inspector calls for a local gendarme and arrests poor Joe for tampering with USPS property. Joe gets ticketed.

 

-- Same thing happens at a speed limit sign in front of the library, except a city cop catches ol'Joe and tickets him for tampering with city property.

 

-- While reaching into an access panel on the corner street light Joe grabs hold of what he THOUGHT was a waterproof match container only to discover, belatedly, that it was really a wire nut and 220volts at 150+ amps course through his body. His poor widow is left with nothing but a pair of tickets, a slightly fried GPS and the log pages Joe downloaded before heading out.

 

----- The widow gets a lawyer who, with a little research, discovers that the Geo-caching.com's guidelines don't allow these kinds of placements. He prepares his case for the $17 million lawsuit based on the assumpion that the Late Joe Cacher would NEVER have done anyhing illegal and merely ASSUMED that his actions were permissible under state and local ordinance and APPROVED and ENCOURAGED by geo-caching.com. As far as Joe was concerned, everything was fine since he had read and understood the terms and trusted in geo-caching.com, its approvers, officers and shareholders.

 

Far-fetched? We've seen a lot of weaker and more trivial cases get big bucks

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Micros have a place, but its not in the woods where real caches can work.

Perhaps you missed it but a micro is a "real" cache. It's not a fake cache. It's not a wannabe cache. It's not kindof a cache. It's a real cache.

 

----------------------

 

Now I can understand someone not wanting to hunt a particular type of cache. You're free to define what you want geocaching to be to you. You can decide what caches to hunt, which ones to ignore, what kinds to place, and list them with whatever services you choose within those services guidelines.

 

But when people start suggesting that a service needs to change their guidelines to cater to the type of cache they personally enjoy then I really have to wonder how selfish they really are.

 

You have the choice not to look for it. You have the choice to log a DNF or a note instead of spending hours doing something you would not enjoy. But when people start thinking they have an obligation to prevent other people from placing caches that other people enjoy on the grounds that it's not their personal cup of tea then I have to wonder what the future of this sport really is.

 

Maybe we should have the phone book stop listing Japanese restaurants since so many people don't like sushi. Maybe iTunes should remove all the Country and Western songs from their playlist. Maybe the dictionary shouldn't list all those slang definations.

 

Or maybe we can learn to accept that there are caches listed that we personally aren't interested in and get on with our lives.

 

-----------------

 

Humor note about the Geo Court and the micros Torry keeps being worried about.

 

The cache in question wasn't a micro. It's described as an Ammo Box (small). Bad placement can occurr with any size container. It's just as possible to have the police called or someone hurt on a regular sized cache as it is on a micro. Actually, I think I've read about more problems in the forums with regular sized caches than with micros.

 

So if we follow Torry's line of reasoning and the historical data, I'm thinking that any limitation to what can be placed would probably affect regular sized caches a lot more than micros.

 

-----------------

 

Be careful what you ask for. You might get it.

Edited by bons
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Or maybe we can learn to accept that there are caches listed that we personally aren't interested in and get on with our lives.

 

I would be more interested in micros if there were two changes:

 

1) There weren't so danged many of them. They are taking over the sport. This is why I would like to see a limit on how many can be hidden by member.

 

2) People would learn to hide them in the appropriate places and not hide them in places that would support a larger container.

 

I'm tired of people saying its not about the cache, it's about the hike getting there. Well then why don't we just get rid of all caches altogether and just post coords to a place we find fascinating? Because if it wasn't for caches, many of us wouldn't even visit or know about the places that we have seen so far in search of a cache of some type. Geocaching wouldn't be what it is now if it wasn't for the caches.

 

But when people start thinking they have an obligation to prevent other people from placing caches that other people enjoy on the grounds that it's not their personal cup of tea then I have to wonder what the future of this sport really is.

 

What happened to locationless and virtuals then?

You're absolutely right about no one having the right to change guidelines to cater to a certain type of cache for a certain type of person. But when a certain type of cache starts taking over the sport, or people start getting stupid in their hiding patterns with a particular cache type, then something needs to be done. Micros are everywhere! They are not limited to urban areas. They are not limited at all.

I don't hunt micros as much as other caches. Especially when some are hidden so stupidly that its almost impossible to find them. The whole point is to find them, right? And when I run out of regular caches to do within a hundred mile area from me, then all that will be left will be micros. I can do a search and at least 50% if not more are micros. What will it be like in a few more years from now? I guess I will be done with geocaching at that point.

 

I wonder if there is a way for Jeremy to find the stats ratio on micros vs traditional caches. It would be interesting to see the comparison. It would also be interesting to see the comparison from just a year ago.

 

So while there are caches that I'm not interested in, what am I to do when those are the only ones left to do?

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1) There weren't so danged many of them. They are taking over the sport. This is why I would like to see a limit on how many can be hidden by member.

Maybe the sport is evolving naturally in favor of micros. Perhaps more micros is the natural balance of geocaching.

 

2) People would learn to hide them in the appropriate places and not hide them in places that would support a larger container.
And yet,oddly enough, I never see complaints that someone placed a regular where a much larger container would still be supported. That's a guideline that favors larger caches over smaller and much like the guidelines that favors caches over virtuals. I suspect it'll have similar results, or possibly worse ones. If people are worried about the proliferation of cheap caches, I'll tell you right now that I'd prefer those caches be magnetic key containers than cheap tupperware. I don't think that you can legistlate time, effort, and cost in a way that will give you the results you personally desire.

 

I'm tired of people saying its not about the cache, it's about the hike getting there. Well then why don't we just get rid of all caches altogether and just post coords to a place we find fascinating?

I suspect Dave Ulmer, who placed the first cache, would be very happy if that's exactly what happened. I could be wrong about that but that's the impressision I've been given. Personally, I wouldn't mind one bit but I'm not going to lobby for that type of change. If it happens, it'll happen naturally.

 

Because if it wasn't for caches, many of us wouldn't even visit or know about the places that we have seen so far in search of a cache of some type. Geocaching wouldn't be what it is now if it wasn't for the caches.

Yep. And that includes the now defunct locationless and the now harder to submit virtual. And now there's a third type you'd like to see limited. After all, isn't it your goal to insure that geocaching will cease to be be what it is now?

 

Micros are everywhere! They are not limited to urban areas. They are not limited at all.
They have the same limitations as other caches. You seem to want them to have their own extra set of limitations, just like virtuals. Has it occurred to you that the proliferation of micros you don't like is a direct result of the limitations on virtuals and a change of rules regarding micros will simply result in a proliferation of lame decon boxes or lamer tupperware?

 

I don't hunt micros as much as other caches. Especially when some are hidden so stupidly that its almost impossible to find them. The whole point is to find them, right?

No. The point is to go somewhere, look for something, and have a good time. If we always have to find it in order to have a good time, then we ought to quit trying to actually hide it. There is no shame in a DNF and often there's a lot of fun in one. At least for me there is.

 

And when I run out of regular caches to do within a hundred mile area from me, then all that will be left will be micros. I can do a search and at least 50% if not more are micros. What will it be like in a few more years from now? I guess I will be done with geocaching at that point.
Either that or Jeremy will add the ignore feature to the site or you'll learn to do it in any of the tools that allow you to ignore any caches you don't want to find.

 

So while there are caches that I'm not interested in, what am I to do when those are the only ones left to do?
Ignore them and let someone else have a good time with them. That's what they're there for after all. You're not expected to like every cache. You're not expected to look for every cache. You don't have to find them all.
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My concern with micro caches in rural/wilderness areas is that the undergrowth is getting trampled on where people are looking for these items. Unless the hiding place is fairly easily determined with or without clues, I would think the traditional larger sized container would be more appropriate.

 

I am not a staunch environmentalist, but do hate to see the vegetation trampled on.

 

LazyCat

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Another thing about microcaches.... Look into the future, 10 years from now. GPS will have to advance so that they are accurate to within inches instead of yards. Because the earth will be saturated with caches. They will have to be hidden every 5 yards apart. :)

 

LazyCat

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I wonder if there is a way for Jeremy to find the stats ratio on micros vs traditional caches. It would be interesting to see the comparison.

In a 200 mile radius:

 

491 Micros

1469 Other (Regular, Large, and Unknown)

~25% of all caches in my area are micros.

For the state of Connecticut (I left out events and locationless):

 

Caches by container:

Micro: 76 (14.5%)

Regular: 377 (72.1%)

Large: 5 (1%)

Other: 25 (4.8%)

Virtual: 21 (4%)

Unknown: 19 (3.6%)

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I think the idea of having a different icon for micro caches (like virtual, mystery, etc have) would help out a lot. Then if people don't want to do micros, it would be easier to avoid them. Just my .02.

"Micro" is not a type.

 

IT IS A SIZE!!!

 

Thank you for your attention.

Edited by CoyoteRed
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