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What Constitutes A No Find?


Etoa Nrish

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I am new to this forum and if the answer to this question has been posted or discussed elsewhere I apologize. If so please direct me to the appropriate link.

 

My question is, what constitutes a no find? Specifically, if I find the benchmark location with the broken center post and a disk "shadow" around it but no disk, I have been logging it as a find but with a note that the disk is missing. Is this accepted practice?

 

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Previous discussions here seem to indicate that this is a 'not found', and that is how I log these sorts of recoveries. (GeckoGeek pointed this out above). You are looking for a specific station, in this case a brass disk, and you haven't found it. Without the disk you cannot be sure you found the location of the mark you are looking for. All you know is that you found something that looks like where a disk used to be. It is not a 'destroyed' for the same reason--you don't really know what is destroyed.

Edited by mloser
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Well if the NGS history should indicate that the disk is missing, then I would log it as a find. Otherwise I use a note on Geocaching and a *FOUND IN POOR CONDITION* if I submit to NGS. I think that it is helpful to explain what you found and less important whether you log it as a find, a DNF or a note. B)

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I am new to this forum and if the answer to this question has been posted or discussed elsewhere I apologize. If so please direct me to the appropriate link.

We've had quite a discussion about this sort of thing. Read the pinned "link" above about Ask Ngs Questions About Reporting Criteria.

This is one entry from Deb Brown of NGS.

If a disk is gone but the shank remains it's technically destroyed BUT the position might still be usable. I'm sure some of those are listed as destroyed in the database and if you find any let me know because I'd like to change that code to POOR and add an explanation in the text.

Therefore, log it as a find with an explanation about it being in poor condition. Edited by Colorado Papa
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This disk-gone problem is a really good example of a 'gray area'. B)

 

I think Deb's remark applies to the concept that the correct geodetic point (mathematical location in space) was found.

 

Since you don't have either:

 

1) professional equipment and mathematics that can locate a point with an accuracy of an inch

 

2) complete knowledge of all geodetic monuments that were ever set in the immediate area, whether in the NGS database or not,

 

you cannot be 100% sure you have the correct point.

 

....unless you can read the disk. B)

 

So, without being able to read the disk, we're in a probability zone of less than 100%. Within that, there are levels, of course. With our handheld GPS only, we have a blindspot 15 feet wide or so, in which we can't be certain of anything. On a GPS-only basis, I think it's overly presumtious to claim a find on a disk-gone. If you have a one or two really good to-reach items like 2 feet SW of power pole 171A, or 1 foot from the SW end of the bridge railing, your probability is very high. If you don't have a really positive to-reach item, then you are limited to the GPS radius, which could theoretically have had 2 or 3 disks mounted in it, the probability depending on the circumstance (like whether the place is a local high-point). Without a good to-reach item AND the mark is scaled, it would be really very presumtious to claim a find on a disk-gone, in my opinion.

 

There is no database that has every geodetic, property boundary, etc. etc. disk that ever was monumented. If there was such a thing, this would be dead easy, but we don't have that; not even the NGS does.

 

We all like to claim a find. I certainly have an inherenet bias towards thinking I have the correct point when I find a drill hole with a shank in it, but that bias isn't so good for the quality of the database.

Edited by Black Dog Trackers
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If you don't have a really positive to-reach item, then you are limited to the GPS radius, which could theoretically have had 2 or 3 disks mounted in it, the probability depending on the circumstance (like whether the place is a local high-point).  Without a good to-reach item AND the mark is scaled, it would be really very presumtious to claim a find on a disk-gone, in my opinion.

I just looked at your statistics. WOW!!! What an abundant supply of benchmarks you have just in ONE county!!! No wonder you make the remarks about doubt. If I had the luxury of upteen benchmarks in one area, I, too, would wonder about accuracy if I found something that might have been a benchmark.

 

But I'm in an area, and in most of the search areas elsewhere, I have only enough PIDs to partially fill one page with marks scattered miles apart. Take a look at this example.

Edited by Colorado Papa
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Take a look at this example.

:D Dang!!! I blew it. <_< If I would have downloaded these points, I could have FOUND/NOT FOUND more. I pulled into the airport (no security or fences) thinking there had to be BMs here but did not have the description or coordinates. Had the laptop and cell phone but the batteries were run down. Dumb, dumb, dumb... :D

BTW, this is only about 100 miles from my home base. How far is it across Fairfax County?

Edited by Colorado Papa
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Yes, I see your point. It is similar to what I was trying to get at with:

which could theoretically have had 2 or 3 disks mounted in it, the probability depending on the circumstance (like whether the place is a local high-point)
. In your point, the probability of more than one disk in a random remote location is essentially zero.

 

However, even in Colorado, in a small mountaintop situation you could still have several agencies mounting disks within a few square feet, depending on the local geography of the top.

 

So there's no absolutes in this. It depends on the probability of more than one possible monumentation in a given spot and you have to use your best judgement on that.

 

This experience is one that I won't forget. Although in Fairfax County, the location was out in the country - in this location no house or building could be seen. Yet, there were 3 benchmarks placed by 3 agencies at the same remote and ordinary intersection, with no obvious reason whatsoever for the popularity of the place. If that county mark had been pried off, leaving the shank and hole behind....... I would've been very tempted to call it a find.

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Just be sure you looked as hard as you could and read the description well. However, posting a NOT FOUND on Geocaching is not as severe as posting the same recovery with NGS. To post a NOT FOUND on NGS I make sure I am absolutely certain the mark is not where described, not just that I haven't looked hard enough or misread the description. I have gone to a few locations 2, 3 and most recently, 4 times. I finally recovered the 4-visit mark as not-found.

 

Oh yeah, if you are in an area where someone else is also hunting marks, be forewarned that your NOT FOUND may be followed up with someone finding the mark. I certainly feel the peer pressure on here to "get it right" before I put it in writing.

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