Old Mines...

[+DeskJocky]

I was going to reply to the topic concerning mines but it was locked before I got a chance...

 

The Federal Agency in charge of mines, MSHA, has a program called "Stay Out -Stay Alive". Read more about it at: http://www.msha.gov/SOSA/SOSAhome.htm

 

It is very easy for a quick visit to an old mine to turn very bad, very quickly. The mine roof, aka top, can/is very bad and can fall at anytime. Older mines where the top is supported by wooden timbers which rot over time and can give at anytime. In coal mines methane builds up very easily and is very, very explosive in very low mixtures. A flashlight has the ability to cause an explosion. Also, black damp, the lack of/low oxygen is very common in mines if they are not ventualted propperly. Just some information to pass along...

 

Am I taking a stance on caches located near these areas, no. This is just ment as in informational post...

[+jonboy]

Just as dangerous as the mine shafts themselves, are the ventilation shafts. These were often boarded over at the time the mine closed, usually surrounded with snow fencing. Being that most of these mines were closed fifty years or more ago, the fencing will be long gone and the beams covering the shaft will be covered in leaf litter and half rotten, awaiting some unwary walker like a diabolical pit trap. Hopefully, the 50 plus foot plunge would be fatal, it could be filled with water, allowing the victim to survive the fall, only to drown like a rat.

 

Most dangerous are the newly opened lands that were formerly mined, such as Passaic County Park in Hewitt, where more than eighty shafts are said to exist, with records of their locations now lost. The thrill of discovering one of these mines is undeniable, especially if it is little known, but mines have always been deadly places, and too many of them still are.

[+briansnat]

Most dangerous are the newly opened lands that were formerly mined, such as Passaic County Park in Hewitt, where more than eighty shafts are said to exist, with records of their locations now lost.

 

Anybody game for going out to find and mark these? I hear (from Jonboy and the FOLPI), that Mt Hope has dozens of these shafts alone. Geocachers aren't the only people who roam these lands. Hunters, hikers and ATVers do. On second thought, perhaps we can leave 'em unmarked and they'll swallow up a few ATV's.

 

But seriously, I'd be up for a few trips to explore the area and either mark, or record the location of each shaft.

[avroair]

Yup sounds like fun!!! Wouldn't mind checking them out.

 

Just putting my finishing touches on my *****/***** multi cache: Mines of Moria....

 

Stage 1: You are attacked by a huge hydra which chases you into the mine and the opening colapses behind you.

Stage 2: You find the Tomb of Balin, his book has the next coordinates... Fool of a Took! You are chased by orcs to stage 3.

Stage 3: Bridge at Khazamdum: You have to get past a Balrog and decrpyt the clue to the cache...

Final cache... located just inside the woods with the elves...

 

(BTW this is a joke!)

[+briansnat]

Yup sounds like fun!!! Wouldn't mind checking them out.

 

I think it would be a good idea to know where they are. I'm sure the county could use the info so someday they can be filled, re-boarded up or roped off. Or at the very least know where to look if a hunter goes missing.

[+Harrald]

 

Anybody game for going out to find and mark these? <<SNIP>>

I would like to help. Are you going to try and get the NYNJTC behind you? I'm know Harriman pretty well. But would go to the other parks if needed.

[+briansnat]

I would like to help. Are you going to try and get the NYNJTC behind you? I'm know Harriman pretty well. But would go to the other parks if needed.

 

I just thought of the idea during this thread, so I have no idea who would be behind it, or if the info would actually be of any use. Though I can't imagine how it won't be.

Edited May 21, 2004 by briansnat

[+DeskJocky]

Just as dangerous as the mine shafts themselves, are the ventilation shafts. These were often boarded over at the time the mine closed, usually surrounded with snow fencing. Being that most of these mines were closed fifty years or more ago, the fencing will be long gone and the beams covering the shaft will be covered in leaf litter and half rotten, awaiting some unwary walker like a diabolical pit trap. Hopefully, the 50 plus foot plunge would be fatal, it could be filled with water, allowing the victim to survive the fall, only to drown like a rat.

 

Most dangerous are the newly opened lands that were formerly mined, such as Passaic County Park in Hewitt, where more than eighty shafts are said to exist, with records of their locations now lost. The thrill of discovering one of these mines is undeniable, especially if it is little known, but mines have always been deadly places, and too many of them still are.

Old topo maps usually have mines marked on them. Are they right? Well, close is better then nothing...

 

Or information could be obtained from the Federal Government's Mine Map Repository... http://mmr.osmre.gov/ They are located in Pittsburgh, PA...

[+Rattlehead]

I'd be interested in helping out too.

[+SERG312]

I'd definetly be up for this. I'll be checking for dates.

[magellan315]

I had have to drive in from PA for this, but sounds like an interestig thing to do for a weekend. Kind of like a safety CITO, I'm sure the park management types would find this useful. Maybe we can work something out with them.

 

Keep me in the loop on this one

[+briansnat]

Old topo maps usually have mines marked on them. Are they right? Well, close is better then nothing...

 

Most USGS maps do have some mines on the maps, but in some cases many maps that are in common use don't. For instance one popular hiking map in a mine rich area had all the mines removed from the latest addition at the request of the state of NY.

 

Also, in northern NJ and southeastern NY, there are mines that date back to the 1700's and haven't been active for 100-200 years, so they are unlikely to be listed anywhere, or at least anyplace where they can be found without extensive research. Or, even if the mine appears on a map, related ventilation shafts don't .

Edited May 21, 2004 by briansnat

[+Team Shibby]

Count me in! So long as I am free, I'll be there to help out with this! Sounds like fun

 

Kar of TS!!

[+Renegade Knight]

...Most USGS maps do have some mines on the maps, but in some cases many maps that are in common use don't. For instance one popular hiking map in a mine rich area had all the mines removed from the latest addition at the request of the state of NY. ...

All this does is make it so you can't go looking for trouble but you won't know when to look to stay out of it either.

[avroair]

Hmmm... so if we all show up at a mine and talk about geocaching and mining... does that make it an event?

 

I am tired of attending non-wannabe events... hey wait, scratch that, I organized the last one...

[+jonboy]

I don't understand how you guys think it will be safer if a bunch of you gather together and clamber all over the mines looking for shafts. Four years ago a camper in Fahnestock State Park was found floating in a flooded mine shaft, after a prolonged search. Apparently the cold water slowed down the decomposition that makes the body rise to the surface, so he was not found when the mine was initially checked.

 

The locations of the mines themselves are pretty well known, it is the locations of the ventilation shafts that are less known. There is a very good reason why those responsible for public safety restrict this information, it is to prevent people from doing just what you are advocating.

 

NJSAR has coordinates for many of the mines in Northern New Jersey, but I would be irresponsible if I shared them with you. In addition, I might be liable to a law suit if one of you were killed or injured. Have any of you stopped to consider your legal exposure if your little jaunt results in a accidental death? How to you propose to find these boarded over shafts? By stepping on them and falling through? Sounds like a great plan! This kind of foolhardy activity could provoke the authorities to close off the land to the public, especially if it results in a fatality and messy litigation.

[+briansnat]

How to you propose to find these boarded over shafts? By stepping on them and falling through?

 

Its a matter of time before some unlucky hiker, or hunter does this very thing. If they are located and marked somehow, maybe that can be prevented.

 

Heck, I was on Hope Mtn 5 times before I knew of the existence of the shafts. Twice on group hikes (where the leader was apparently unaware of them, as he made no mention), twice wandering around by myself exploring it and once with a friend. I guess we were pretty lucky. The next person might not be. And the summit has evidence that people visit it fairly regularly. There were fresh empty beer cans up there and I found pair of ladies panties .

Edited May 21, 2004 by briansnat

[nikcap]

Not that I'm trying to derail this thread. (Pun definitely intended)

I recently ran into this thread about the Ogden and Edison Mines.

 

As for marking the mine shafts, I see Jonboy's point. Waypointing the locations of old mines will only benefit those that really care, the two college kid with a six pack would not benefit from this. However, this doesn't mean we shouldn't mark the points anyway and get them on record.

I would also contact the Central Jersey Grotto, I know that several years ago some of the members marked a bunch of mines in North Jersey.

Edited May 21, 2004 by nikcap

[+DeskJocky]

Hmmm... so if we all show up at a mine and talk about geocaching and mining... does that make it an event?

 

I am tired of attending non-wannabe events... hey wait, scratch that, I organized the last one...

Ahh, show up at a mine without a good purpose will get you polietly escorted to the door. Start asking where their vent shafts are, might get you on the infamous Homeland Security database....

 

If you find any old vent shafts, I would advise smoking or having any open flames. Methane is lighter then air, thus would be rising out of the shaft. If something goes boom, I wouldn't want to be any where near it... Matter of fact, there is a federal law that says you are not allowed to have an open flame within so many feet of a vent shaft without a federal permit...

 

Also worth nothing, if the mine is active, or temp. idled, they are federally regulated. What does that mean, when you break laws, you are breaking federal laws, thus you can get a trip to the federal big house...

[+briansnat]

Also worth nothing, if the mine is active, or temp. idled, they are federally regulated. What does that mean, when you break laws, you are breaking federal laws, thus you can get a trip to the federal big house...

 

I don't believe we'd be breaking any federal laws here. We're talking largely about mines that have been closed for 100-200 years and will never be re opened, as they are now on parkland.

Edited May 21, 2004 by briansnat

[magellan315]

It does not have to be released to the public. I think finding the vent shafts and letting the appropriate agencies know where they are would be a good thing.

1. They can mark them on their maps in the event SAR needs to search an area for a missing person.

2. Budget permitting they can do something more permanent to seal them: rebars and concrete come to mind. Especially if they are close to an area with trails.

3. They could choose to put up warning signs letting people know that they are in the area of a vent shaft, especially in an off trail situation.

 

As far as finding them that should be a matter of finding older maps matching the location on a new map and, carefully, checking it out. Not much different from what some archeologists do.

 

Personally I see this a type of CITO. Instead of cleaning a park we are helping the land managers locate a possible safety hazard for future reference. As long as we work with with the proper land managers I would think they would be glad for the help, given the limited budgets they face.

Edited May 21, 2004 by magellan315

[+Worf's Pack]

Back when I was petending to go to college. Did a bunch of Spelunking used carbide lamps brought in rafts. We tried some mines in the Adirondacks. Went through chambers with rafts. Only a few inches of air to get from one camber to another.

Came back a year later large sections of roof was colapsed. The part I rafted through was gone. A buddy slipped gashed his hand on the sharp rock. Took an hour to drive him to a hospital to get stiches. Mines are subject to change hopefully when your not in them.

[+wvcoalcat]

Briansnat is totally correct that no State/Federal laws will be violated as the idea is to search for abandoned mines. Active/idled mines have their shafts/entries/ventilation boreholes etc. fenced to help protect the public's safety. These mines also have their facilities mapped already. Why look for them? All that is needed is some common sense and a great amount of caution.

 

I've conducted property surveys in areas that old mines have extracted coal almost literally to the "grass roots" (areas where the coal seam is very close to the surface). One time while traversing around a hillside I found a hole in the ground approx. four feet in diameter where the mine had subsided, exposing the old workings. It was full of fast moving water and was about ten feet deep.

 

I've also surveyed for the West Virginia Abandoned Mine Lands Program and have been to sites that people have fallen into long abandoned shafts. In this area, depending on the seam being mined, some of these shafts are anywhere from 200-900 feet deep. While the idea to find these abandoned mines is a noble one, personally I feel it could be a dangerous undertaking.

[+briansnat]

While the idea to find these abandoned mines is a noble one, personally I feel it could be a dangerous undertaking

 

It could be, but walking around carefully looking for signs of these shafts is a lot safer than wandering around the area totally oblivious of their existence, which is what I (and I'm sure many others) was doing before I found out about them.

[+wvcoalcat]

Of course you're correct.

 

As I've been surveying in various aspects of the mining industry for about 20 years I do seem to be a bit overly cautious. Around here we have quite a few younger people that explore "caves" that are actually abandoned mines, totally unaware of the dangers involved.

 

Another thing is that we say "shafts", which might not be the actual case. There are three types of mine entries.

 

Drift mine. One that enters from the side of a hill at the mineral outcrop.

 

Slope mine. One that enters from the side of a hill too (most often), but enters above the seam and tunnels down through the overlying strata, at a grade, to reach the seam.

 

Shaft mine. One that is a verticle opening to the seam.

 

I hope I didn't offend by explaining the differences.

 

If finding and marking one of these old mines helps one person it will have been well worth your effort. Heck, I'd probably go too if I was in your area.

[+briansnat]

As I've been surveying in various aspects of the mining industry for about 20 years I do seem to be a bit overly cautious. Around here we have quite a few younger people that explore "caves" that are actually abandoned mines, totally unaware of the dangers involved.

 

Another thing is that we say "shafts", which might not be the actual case. There are three types of mine entries.

 

Drift mine. One that enters from the side of a hill at the mineral outcrop.

 

Slope mine. One that enters from the side of a hill too (most often), but enters above the seam and tunnels down through the overlying strata, at a grade, to reach the seam.

 

Shaft mine. One that is a verticle opening to the seam.

 

I hope I didn't offend by explaining the differences.

 

If finding and marking one of these old mines helps one person it will have been well worth your effort. Heck, I'd probably go too if I was in your area.

 

Actually, the locations of the mines themselves are known. The mine in question was filled in (well at least the entrance) 40 some years ago, but it has 14 levels tunneling as far as 2,000 feet into the mountain.

 

What we are referring to here are the associated verticle ventilation shafts that could potentially have drops of several hundred feet. They were boarded up when the mine was closed, but are probably covered by rotting wood now. There are nearly 50 of these shafts dotting this mountain. A new hiking trail was built nearby, so I'm sure there will people climbing the mountain to check out the view from the top.

 

I spent several days wandering the place totally ignorant of the existence of these shafts, until Jonboy informed me of them. I confirmed their existence with local mine historians. They said they know they are there, but not the exact locations (with the exception of a few).

Edited May 28, 2004 by briansnat

[+KidRipley]

Yup sounds like fun!!! Wouldn't mind checking them out.

 

I think it would be a good idea to know where they are. I'm sure the county could use the info so someday they can be filled, re-boarded up or roped off. Or at the very least know where to look if a hunter goes missing.

 

I would like to help. Are you going to try and get the NYNJTC behind you? I'm know Harriman pretty well. But would go to the other parks if needed.

 

I just thought of the idea during this thread, so I have no idea who would be behind it, or if the info would actually be of any use. Though I can't imagine how it won't be.

 

I don't understand how you guys think it will be safer if a bunch of you gather together and clamber all over the mines looking for shafts. Four years ago a camper in Fahnestock State Park was found floating in a flooded mine shaft, after a prolonged search. Apparently the cold water slowed down the decomposition that makes the body rise to the surface, so he was not found when the mine was initially checked.

 

The locations of the mines themselves are pretty well known, it is the locations of the ventilation shafts that are less known. There is a very good reason why those responsible for public safety restrict this information, it is to prevent people from doing just what you are advocating.

 

NJSAR has coordinates for many of the mines in Northern New Jersey, but I would be irresponsible if I shared them with you. In addition, I might be liable to a law suit if one of you were killed or injured. Have any of you stopped to consider your legal exposure if your little jaunt results in a accidental death? How to you propose to find these boarded over shafts? By stepping on them and falling through? Sounds like a great plan! This kind of foolhardy activity could provoke the authorities to close off the land to the public, especially if it results in a fatality and messy litigation.

 

BRIANSNAT---

If they are found, and could be deemed hazzards? do you think it would be possible to mark co-ords and have a danger symbol put on the maps (like a cache) ? so if you are caching in area you could be a little more alert to a possible hazzard.

 

JONBOY-------

As for your "secret lists" It's safer and more "responsible" to keep them secret because knowing there might be a hazzard is worse than finding it through an accident?

 

ALSO, for the "those who need to know" idea; So...if I am out on a search, I would have to rely on that info being passed down from the IC(s) ? ya know the ones who dont seem to understand map scale...(specific location withheld) 2006&'07....where maps/sat photos given to task units that were so bad that you couldnt see features that were easily 1000 ft across (school complex w/ ball fields, that was hidden by the "pushpin icon" on print out) and/or the 6 or so tennis courts and a 1 acre pond. And I am supposed to rely on that for my safety??? So cool off with that "need to know" attitude.

Yeah, I wouldnt mind being utilized more, but I am not comfortable with NOT advising a hazzard for some remote fear of some clown trying his hand at spelunking might end in a call out.

You would probably be MORE open to litigation for NOT making public notice of a known hazzard. Sorry your argument sounds good at face value, but, after a little thought...not so much. ---sorry I am (still) a bit upset that I felt hindered on those searches due to poor intel, and we spent more time trying to locate our task area(s) than performing search.--------

 

How can you avoid a hazzard if you dont know where it is? You will always have the "wet paint touchers" no matter what. (wet paint toucher= someone who sees the sign "wet paint" but still has to touch it to check for themselves)

 

ANYWAYS,,,,,,

 

The Park Authorites might be more inclined to "make safe" such hazzards if it is known they are a hazzard, not just relying on OLD info that it was "secured when abandoned" (which may have only been a couple pieces of scrapwood placed over a hole 50+ yrs ago) or at least signs in areas to be extra alert for such things. They might even be able to get extra monies for the improvements. Or at least have a detail go and assess the danger, might be nothing or only need a piece of chianlink fence to cover a small opening. or a steel plate to be anchored over a shaft. Heck, they might NOT know every vent shaft of well ever made, could be good thing to report any open hole to proper authority.

 

Like saying dont mark a minefield, someone might step on a mine.???