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Serious Political Problem.


BalkanSabranje
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What the Austrians in this thread aren't telling anyone:

The SS 3 (perhaps the best trained branch of the SS General Service Troops) received training in Graz, not surprising since Graz is a major city with an excellent teaching facilities including a university that's been around since 1585.

 

Why should we offer history lessons in this forum? Anyone can look up the information if he is interested.

 

It seems highly likely that a new solider in the SS 3 would be temporarily stationed at Graz to receive their training. It seems very unlikely that a temporarily stationed soldier would be involved with or even informed of what was really happening in other sections of Graz.

 

Please note that the owner of the TB mentions the medical camp at Graz, not just

a training at the medical faculty (college in the US-terminology where faculty means the staff and not the organisational unit) of the university of Graz, or just being temporarily stationed as a soldier in Graz.

 

The history of the involvement of medicine in the crimes of the Nazis is a very complicated and serious issue. I suspect that you cannot read German. Otherwise I would, for example, recommend you the following book

http://www.studienverlag.at/titel.php3?ISBN=3-7065-1565-2

 

It might be that the owner of the TB has no idea what happened in the medical camp in Graz, but I cannot imagine that someone who spent some time there was not aware of what happened. The reason why I wrote in another posting that it is hard for me to believe that the owner of the TB is not knowing some background is that it seems quite natural for me to search for informations about a place which I am going to select as goal for a TB before sending it off.

 

I am, for example, wondering what it should mean to send a TB to the "medical camp at Graz". Fortunately, this place does not exist any longer. Unlike concentration camps, there does not exist a place of remembrance.

Why did the owner not just write "visit Graz as my uncle has be stationed there"?

 

Of course, the successor of the "Feldhof" (hospital for mental illnesses, see

http://www.lsf-graz.at/cms/ziel/492370/DE/ for some history in German) and the Medical University of Graz (a separate university since this year) exist, but nobody would refer to these institutions as "medical camp at Graz".

 

Moreover, let me add that I feel very much ashamed for what happened during those times although I am way too young to have lived in that time and although my family

has not been involved. It is my right to feel deeply offended by the TB "Divided Family 2". This is not at all intolerant.

 

Unfortunately, people in this thread have pronounced guilt by association.

Here's what's happened as far as justice in this thread seems to be concerned.

1) He was in the SS, an extremly large army divided in many parts.

2) He was temporily stationed in one of the largest cities of Austria.

3) He received medical training there.

 

Noone tried to pronounce guilt - the issue is not the uncle, but the TB. The TB is offending for cachers in the region where it is currently located and we are the only ones who can judge on that.

 

How we've gone from these two things to the six barracks at KZ Gusen where horrors occurred is beyond me. But that's where it's gone. People have decided for themselves that "medical training" = war crime in this case, when, in fact, no real indication of that sort actually exists.

 

Nobody decided that "medical training" implies war crimes. But the medical camp

was not identical to the medical college of the University of Graz which you seem to say.

 

 

I sincerely hope that you now stop to attack BS and to discuss about topics which are not the issue of BS's request. Feel free to discuss about the TB and about possible ways to resolve the issue, but please stop to discuss about the person owning the TB and about his family.

 

Cezanne

Edited by cezanne
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My quote was in response to mcweb's first post soliciting comments on someone he knew who worked at Auschwitz.

Dang, next time you quote somebody please let us know you quoted whom! Makes it a lot easier to follow your train of thought... :grin:

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P.S. Does it matter if the person in my example was a "Jew, Gypsy, Jehovah's Witness, Slav, Pole, homosexual, Russian POW[...] or enlisted in the German Armed Forces that ran the camp? " He didn't want to be there and he didn't want to do what he was doing.

 

It makes a world of difference. Trying to equate Waffen SS soldiers to the victims of Nazi tyranny trivializes the Holocaust. Sorry, but "we are all victims" doesn't wash when you are Gestapo or Waffen SS and are running the horror show. At a minimum, ask for a transfer to a combat unit.

 

I didn't mean to imply that everyone was a victim. Just that the side of the conflict doesn't matter if their feelings were against the war and the person was not there because he chose to be. Take for example, a muslim in the U.S. military who is currently fighting in Iraq. He may or may not agree with the reasons for the war, and may not even want to fight the war. However, he has given his oath to follow the commands of the officers appointed over him, and therefore is doing that. It may not be a perfect example, but it kind of shows what I meant.

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Was he there involuntarily (i.e., a Jew, Gypsy, Jehovah's Witness, Slav, Pole, homosexual, Russian POW, etc.) or was he enlisted in the German Armed Forces that ran the camp?

Please read:

At the outset of the war, one of my great uncles joined the german military (Waffen SS) and like many military members in my family, went into infantry, but also received some medical training. Soon he was on his way to eastern Europe to fight against resistance there (established by allied trainers).

Source

 

Hints:

...outset of the war...

...joined...

...like many military members in my family, went into infantry....

Yes, you may ASSUME that, but many other factors may be involved. I'm not defending this TB, or the uncle in anyway. Just pointing out that we do not know the circumstances. Maybe in your opinion these things you listed mean he voluntarily joined and had no pressure from family, govt, or other sources. That he wanted to kill people, believed in the 3rd Reich, and loved Hitler. All these things MAY be true, but we DO NOT KNOW this. I'm just trying to point out that it is easy to make assumptions on information that doesn't tell the whole story.

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I'm not defending this TB, or the uncle in anyway. Just pointing out that we do not know the circumstances. Maybe in your opinion these things you listed mean he voluntarily joined and had no pressure from family, govt, or other sources. That he wanted to kill people, believed in the 3rd Reich, and loved Hitler.

This is also the opinion of the bug owner, who speaks of "respect [to] the man for doing what he thought was right and being brave enough to fight for his convictions"

In other words, the TB owner is certain that the man believed in the Nazi cause and acted on his belief ... not because of being forced, or reluctant, or even merely a conformist.

It is also important to point out that the bug's protagonist never fought against the invading Allied armies, or anywhere on the frontlines of the war. So his actions may not even be justified by the basic patriotic zeal in the face of attacking enemy forces. Indeed, according to the bug owner, the man was involved in anti-Resistance operation in Eastern Europe, which were largely opetations against the civilians, with a good deal of genocide and cultural warfare thrown in for good measure.

Not that it is really on topic...

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WWII proved the Germans were hard working, industrious, creative, and dutiful.  The right and wrong of the war was not in the hands of most of the soldiers who fought.  This was true of both sides and there were heroes on both sides.

What you ignore in your posting, however, is that having being a member of the Waffen SS is not the same as having been a member of the German army at that time (Wehrmacht).

 

Moreover, all what you say regards the uncle and the family of the owner of the TB and not the TB! It's the set-up of the TB which causes the offense. The history cannot be changed, but the TB could.

Edited by cezanne
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I think that "Yellow Jeep Fever" is probably the lamest cache ever to be listed on this website.

 

If anybody ever got the bright idea to send out a little miniature yellow jeep as a travel bug, and it found its way to a cache near me, I'd be pretty steamed.

I have to agree, I think everyone should boycott caches containing little yellow jeeps. LMAO.............. All I can say is I am just glad to live in America.

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WWII proved the Germans were hard working, industrious, creative, and dutiful.  The right and wrong of the war was not in the hands of most of the soldiers who fought.  This was true of both sides and there were heroes on both sides.

What you ignore in your posting, however, is that having being a member of the Waffen SS is not the same as having been a member of the German army at that time (Wehrmacht).

 

Moreover, all what you say regards the uncle and the family of the owner of the TB and not the TB! It's the set-up of the TB which causes the offense. The history cannot be changed, but the TB could.

What's wrong with the setup of the TB?

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This is also the opinion of the bug owner, who speaks of "respect [to] the man for doing what he thought was right and being brave enough to fight for his convictions"

In other words, the TB owner is certain that the man believed in the Nazi cause and acted on his belief ... not because of being forced, or reluctant, or even merely a conformist.

Just because he "did what he thought was right" doesn't mean that he we wanted to be fighting for the Nazi cause.

 

Maybe he "thought it was right" to serve his country by joining the army. Maybe he joined the army years before the nazi regime and was forced to be in one of the more infamous regiments...

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Free speech isn't allowed in Austria.  SO this whole thing is moot.

How often have you been in Austria?

I ignore your insulting closing of your posting.

 

I have a question, however, to those (and only those!!) who argue that there is no reason to feel offended about the TB "Divided Family 2". On which ground did the United States put Kurt Waldheim on their watchlist and thus denied the Austrian federal president from 1986-1992 entry to the US? (I am not a supporter of Waldheim, but note that the "only" thing that could be proved by an independent commission was that he did not tell the full truth about his past and that he repressed parts of his life.)

 

I hesitated to mention the name "Waldheim" as I definitely do not want a discussion on that subject and even less in this forum. Normally I keep out of political discussions regardless of the topic. In this case I stepped in because I did not want to watch that BS becomes attacked by so many people for a very courageous action.

 

I mentioned Waldheim's name just because

I needed a concrete example to point out something which I consider as very odd: People with a "more harmless" CV than the uncle of the TB's owner can easily be denied entry to the US while cachers from the US are telling us on this forum that we do not have the right to feel offended by the TB "Divided Family 2". If there existed an entry procedure for TBs to the US (of course this is only hypothetical), this TB almost surely would get denied entry, but you argue that we should be happy with it in Austria?

 

Cezanne

Edited by cezanne
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Maybe he "thought it was right" to serve his country by joining the army.  Maybe he joined the army years before the nazi regime and was forced to be in one of the more infamous regiments...

That's definitely not possible. The uncle was member of the Waffen-SS.

I have the feeling that many who post in this thread do not have a very detailed knowledge about the SS and its divisions. Otherwise, the terms "soldier" and "fight for the country" would not occur that offen.

Edited by cezanne
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You are asking for our opinion of this man. But more facts are needed. For instance:

 

He did not want to be there, but had no choice. He would have been killed if he didn't do the duties assigned to him.

 

Was he there involuntarily (i.e., a Jew, Gypsy, Jehovah's Witness, Slav, Pole, homosexual, Russian POW, etc.) or was he enlisted in the German Armed Forces that ran the camp?

It doesn't matter if he was a "guest" of the camp or one of the soldiers assigned to it. The owner wants the travel bug to visit the camp so he can learn more about it.

 

I don't like the fact that my company uses hydrochloric acid, sulfuric acid, ammonia, silene, and many other nasty chemicals. No matter how they are disposed of, they damage the environment. Acoording to your point of view, I pour these chemicals in the water supply. In actuality, my job has nothing to do with any of these substances.

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It might be that the owner of the TB has no idea what happened in the medical camp in Graz, but I cannot imagine that someone who spent some time there was not aware of what happened.

Show me where the bug's owner says his great-uncle served for any particular length of time at Graz. Maybe he was there for a month, discovered what happened there, requested a transfer and was shipped out to Eastern Europe.

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cachers from the US are telling us on this forum that we do not have the right to feel offended by the TB "Divided Family 2".

 

Cezanne

I think you have every right to feel however you feel. No one can tell you how to feel. You are the only person who can determine that. I do feel that a lot of people jumped to a lot of conclusions in the post (some wrong, some right), but in the end everyone is entitled to their opinion. I think most of the people that are "attacking" BS are simply trying to defend a TB owner who is not here to defend him/herself. Maybe there are good reasons for the TB and maybe there are not, but this issue will not be resolved in the forums. Those who believe one way will not convince those who believe the other to change their beliefs, feelings, and opinions on this topic.

 

Earlier I argued that no one knows the exact enlistment/duties of the uncle, or the exact representation of the TB. I will also argue that no one whose country was not dramatically affected by the travesties of the SS and Nazi party can possible know what it's like, or how they would act or feel in the same situation you are in. Many (including myself) like to think we know how we would react, but there is no way to know that for sure unless you have been there and lived it.

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Why should we offer history lessons in this forum? Anyone can look up the information if he is interested.

Even though you aren't obligated to provide history lessons, I'm grateful for the effort you are making in trying to explain to Americans why "Waffen SS" and "medical camp at Graz" aren't the equivalent of "infantry" and "VA Hospital".

 

I hope my fellow Americans will read a little about what these imply before talking about a soldier just doing his duty.

 

So....

 

The TB is (on the Internet) in a TB graveyard. It's probably physically in the possession of BS. And at some point the TB owner will return to this site at see that there is an issue with his TB. I hope he contacts BS and tries to resolve this issue.

 

Until then, I'm not sure this thread is going to make much headway on reaching a consensus.

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It seems our TB owner is MIA. Given how heated this thread is getting--not to mention how personal, too--I'm all for pouring a beverage, popping some corn, putting my feet up and wait for the owner to own up. Or, at the very least, show up in this forum and give some response to us, the unsettled masses.

 

I'll wait.

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I don't like the fact that my company uses hydrochloric acid, sulfuric acid, ammonia, silene, and many other nasty chemicals. No matter how they are disposed of, they damage the environment. Acoording to your point of view, I pour these chemicals in the water supply. In actuality, my job has nothing to do with any of these substances.

 

Maybe I'm missing something. How does that fact that your company disposes of harmful chemicals equate with the systematic extermination of Jews, Gypsies, etc. by the Nazis? Is it because you, like the Gestapo and the Waffen SS, are just doing your job/following orders? Do you really think that being an employee at a company that (presumably legally) uses and disposes of chemicals is equivalent to being a soldier in the Waffen SS - an instrument and appartus of the Nazis? And I thought mcweb was trivializing the Holocaust...

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I've just read through the three pages of arguing about this bug and whether or not it's offensive. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I am not going to enter the argument to voice mine.

At least not my opinion about the bug.

However...

BalkanSabranje pulled the bug out of his cache on the 18th, at least according to the bug's page. And since the previous holder of the bug put it there on the 17th that would be about right.

BalkanSabranje started this thread on the 18th.

Did he make a reasonable effort to contact the bug' owner? Not in that short length of time. I would figure on two e-mails several days apart, in case the first one was lost.

Did he contact TPTB? Yes, but he did not give them a reasonable amount of time to respond. Once again, figure on two e-mails several days apart.

In other words, this thread should not have been started for at least a week after he took the bug from his cache.

That it was started as quickly as it was does not speak well for BalkanSabranje.

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I don't like the fact that my company uses hydrochloric acid, sulfuric acid, ammonia, silene, and many other nasty chemicals. No matter how they are disposed of, they damage the environment. Acoording to your point of view, I pour these chemicals in the water supply. In actuality, my job has nothing to do with any of these substances.

 

Maybe I'm missing something. How does that fact that your company disposes of harmful chemicals equate with the systematic extermination of Jews, Gypsies, etc. by the Nazis? Is it because you, like the Gestapo and the Waffen SS, are just doing your job/following orders? Do you really think that being an employee at a company that (presumably legally) uses and disposes of chemicals is equivalent to being a soldier in the Waffen SS - an instrument and appartus of the Nazis? And I thought mcweb was trivializing the Holocaust...

You did miss the point. The point is SS does not equate to Evil Rat Bastard any more than Sax equates to Evil Spoiler of the Environment even though he works in High Tech which is known for it's noxiouse chemical waste. In other words look at the specific case.

Edited by Renegade Knight
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Did he make a reasonable effort to contact the bug' owner?

 

That it was started as quickly as it was does not speak well for BalkanSabranje.

I don't see a problem.

 

His moving the TB to a graveyard is an easily reversible action.

 

He (presumably) has physical possession of the TB.

 

So I don't see an issue with him wanted to move it out of his inventory, especially since he finds it so hateful.

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I don't like the fact that my company uses hydrochloric acid, sulfuric acid, ammonia, silene, and many other nasty chemicals. No matter how they are disposed of, they damage the environment. Acoording to your point of view, I pour these chemicals in the water supply. In actuality, my job has nothing to do with any of these substances.

 

Maybe I'm missing something. How does that fact that your company disposes of harmful chemicals equate with the systematic extermination of Jews, Gypsies, etc. by the Nazis? Is it because you, like the Gestapo and the Waffen SS, are just doing your job/following orders? Do you really think that being an employee at a company that (presumably legally) uses and disposes of chemicals is equivalent to being a soldier in the Waffen SS - an instrument and appartus of the Nazis? And I thought mcweb was trivializing the Holocaust...

You did miss the point. The point is SS does not equate to Evil Rat Bastard any more than Sax equates to Evil Spoiler of the Environment even though he works in High Tech which is known for it's noxiouse chemical waste. In other words look at the specific case.

Thanks, RK.

 

I have absolutely nothing to do with the mean, nasty chemicals that pollute the environment. That choice is made high above my station and I have no influence over it.

 

Here's the comparison:

Maybe the great-uncle had absolutely nothing to do with the mean, nasty things that the Waffen became known for. That choice was made high above his station and he had no influence over it.

 

It is entirely possible that he was in the Waffen before those atrocities happened. I can't find anything that says the Waffen was created for that purpose. It's a task that was given to an existing unit. It evolved into a killing machine.

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What would happen? Families would go to the cache, find the TB and instead of having a nice Saturday afternoon in the country with their children, get to have a painful discussion about Nazi otracities. Is this what you signed up for? Alternatively, it could become the least visited cache in Austria as long as it has the TB in it.

 

Actually, Bidredmed, I hope that "painful discussion" does occur. With the way that school history textbooks are sanitized these days, the atrocities get reduced to little soundbites and lose their capacity to truly horrify. Finding out that Uncle so-and-so may well have had a hand in this puts the situation into a context that provides a "teachable moment" for parents to have an honest discussion about why genocide happens. The best memorial to the victims of the Holocaust is to remember how evil the ideals of Nazi Germany really was, so that this won't never happen again.

 

It's been said before, but I'll repeat it again: the owner of the TB said he DOES NOT agree with his Nazi uncle! Maybe if we all repeat it enough times it'll sink in, but I doubt it. When politically correct people make up their mind, the facts never are enough to convince them.

Someone here said a bug called "Darkie Catcher" would be similarly offensive. You know, if the bug was called "Kill the Jews" or something I would see how you could be offended. Shame on you for creating a strawman. Believe me, if it was really anti-Semitic I'd be jumping down the TB owner's throat with spike heels- I'm in the process of converting to Judiasm myself.

 

Please don't throw out the travel bug. Replace it in a cache, say kaddish for the victims of the Holocaust, pray for those who died on both sides. And be da*n grateful that you live in a country with freedom of speech.

 

mrs. bons

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Did he make a reasonable effort to contact the bug' owner?

 

That it was started as quickly as it was does not speak well for BalkanSabranje.

I don't see a problem.

 

His moving the TB to a graveyard is an easily reversible action.

 

He (presumably) has physical possession of the TB.

 

So I don't see an issue with him wanted to move it out of his inventory, especially since he finds it so hateful.

The point of my post was not that he placed it in the graveyard. As a matter of fact, there is nowhere in my post that I mentioned what he did or didn't do with the bug itself.

My point is that he started this thread before making a reasonable effort to resolve the problem in a more civilized manner.

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I already explained that the expression "throw out" has a literal meaning in the German language (at least in the Austrian usage) which is not at all destructive.

 

This is talking in circles. For all intents and purposes, the TB *IS* destroyed.

 

If you take the tires off my car, and remove the fuel tank - my car is useless. What makes my car useful is that I can go places in it. What makes a travelbug useful is that it goes places. By 'holding' it, whether you physically destroy it or not, or 'taking the tires off' so to speak - you are destroying it's functionality. As far as the owner is concerned, it IS destroyed, because it can no longer function as intended. Then to make THEM pay to get it back is the height of arrogance. it's like selling someone their car back after you've slashed the tires. REAL nice of you.

 

As for my comment stating that there is no free speech in Austria (and the resulting insulting closing comment) - That was a so-called 'de-facto' statement. There may well be free speech, but if someone like you gets an attitude about someone elses TB the way you are doing, there is, in statement of fact, no free speech.

 

The bottom line here is you are choosing to be offended, and nothing anyone says to you is going to change your mind. A post somewhere in here said the the US posters are telling Austrians they cannot be offended. This is wrong - those of us on this side of the issue are saying that you are CHOOSING to be offended. In itself, that is fine. But you are taking actions against someone you do not know based on the offense you have taken upon yourself. And that is what, I at least, find so... offensive. You don't see me lobbying for your account to be banned, though. I'm offended, but I can DEAL WITH IT.

 

So can you.

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trust me, living now is the best answer. what you dwell on is what you experience. as you have all proven with your many posts in this thread, there are 2 or more sides to anything. for one person, it is bad, for another neutral, and yet another good.

for example, your boss is yelling at you for a mistake you made that cost some profit. for you it is bad. for the boss' friend it is good as he enjoys the man's asssertive and aggresive personality, and your getting yelled at makes for very funny conversation while they enjoy their lunch at the country club. any good, any bad, is perspective.

 

not to say there are not good and bad things. we all agree that some things are in general bad, or good. but let us not try to describe every possibility in a thread about a TB.

 

sorry that I didn't have anything to specifically say about the TB, but I still wanted to share my opinion on the discussion here.

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What makes a travelbug useful is that it goes places.  By 'holding' it, whether you physically destroy it or not, or 'taking the tires off' so to speak - you are destroying it's functionality. 

 

First, I did not take any action. I live at quite a distance of the cache.

Second, do you really believe that the TB would continue its journey if it had stayed in that cache?

 

Then to make THEM pay to get it back is the height of arrogance.  it's like selling someone their car back after you've slashed the tires.  REAL nice of you.

 

Do you think that the owner of the TB would prefer that it remains in a cache off its target forever, or gets vandalized because someone feels offended? (I am not saying that the latter would happen, it is just a hypothetical question.)

Until now I was believing that the TB is probably of value to the owner, in particular of a value that is not connected to money (i.e., the cost of the TB tag).

 

If the owner does not want to change the set-up of his TB to make it less offensive, I cannot see any other way than sending it back to him to avoid that it is getting lost almost surely somewhere during its mission.

 

There may well be free speech, but if someone like you gets an attitude about someone elses TB the way you are doing, there is, in statement of fact, no free speech.

 

A TB cannot speak. More seriously, I did not build up an attitude about the owner of the TB, simply about the TB and the way it makes Austrians feel. I am very glad that someone else wrote in this thread that it is hard for a non-Austrian to judge which emotions he/she would have about the TB if he were Austrian.

 

But you are taking actions against someone you do not know based on the offense you have taken upon yourself.  And that is what, I at least, find so...  offensive.  You don't see me lobbying for your account to be banned, though.  I'm offended, but I can DEAL WITH IT. 

 

Did you read this thread? Which action did I take? You are talking of freedom of speech and at the same time you mention "lobbying towards banning of *my* account"? The only thing I did was providing some background information and defending BS (whom I have never met up to know - I do not even his real name)

when I felt that the attacks on him were unfair.

I did not attack in a single line the owner of the TB, neither his uncle.

If you felt offended by what I did, I am sorry for that, but it is certainly easier to deal with such an offense than if the offense caused by the TB.

 

 

 

 

Cezanne

Edited by cezanne
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The point of my post was not that he placed it in the graveyard. As a matter of fact, there is nowhere in my post that I mentioned what he did or didn't do with the bug itself.

My point is that he started this thread before making a reasonable effort to resolve the problem in a more civilized manner.

Once again:

He moved it immediately to the graveyard because he did not want to have the TB in his cache for a longer time. Since the cacher owner has not logged on to gc.com for a while, it is not that likely that he will respond quickly if at all. The same is true for gc.com: If you contact them with a technical issue, then probably they will answer after a week. If you contact them with an issue like the present one, it is very likely that you will receive no response at all. Contacting the main approver for Austria, also did not result in a satisfactory solution.

 

BS could have provided some more details in his first posting on what he already done, but anyone here is able to ask questions if he/she wants to know more.

 

As your complaint about the order of his actions is regarded:

What is wrong with spending the waiting time until perhaps gc.com or the TB owner will respond, with asking for suggestions in this forum? I cannot see any advantage in putting the TB virtually into a graveyard, keeping slilent and asking for suggestions only after some weeks.

 

BS's posting was a request for suggestions how to proceed, not a posting to judge the owner of the TB or the uncle. Therefore, I cannot see any problem in asking for suggestions before the TB owner has replied.

 

Cezanne

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Actually, Bidredmed, I hope that "painful discussion" does occur. With the way that school history textbooks are sanitized these days, the atrocities get reduced to little soundbites and lose their capacity to truly horrify. Finding out that Uncle so-and-so may well have had a hand in this puts the situation into a context that provides a "teachable moment" for parents to have an honest discussion about why genocide happens. The best memorial to the victims of the Holocaust is to remember how evil the ideals of Nazi Germany really was, so that this won't never happen again.

Do you know our history books? Or do you talk about history books in the US or some other part of the world?

 

I agree with you that painful periods of history are repressed too often and many people prefer to "forget" nasty parts.

 

The aspect that is missing in your comment is the description of the TB: The offensive thing is not that it deals with a very sad chapter of history which will hopefully not repeat. If the goal of the TB were to visit places of Nazi crimes as an act of remembrance and if this happened with a feeling of mourning about the victims, then this thread would no exist.

 

Cezanne

Edited by cezanne
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Just to clear up some issues:

 

In general, the 'you' in my post was not referring to you, but the original poster, but it some way does refer to 'you' in regards to your support of their actions... Sorry for that confusion - poor choice of wording on my part.

 

First, I did not take any action. I live at quite a distance of the cache.

Second, do you really believe that the TB would continue its journey if it had stayed in that cache?

 

If the TB stopped because noone wanted it, that is fine. You shouldn't be able to FORCE someone to TAKE a TB... I know of one person who (in humor) refused to move a TB due to the fact that it honored a sports team he didn't like. He left in the cache for someone else to take. If it goes nowhere, then it goes nowhere. No big deal.

 

Do you think that the owner of the TB would prefer that it remains in a cache off its target forever, or gets vandalized because someone feels offended? (I am not saying that the latter would happen, it is just a hypothetical question.)

Until now I was believing that the TB is probably of value to the owner, in particular of a value that is not connected to money (i.e., the cost of the TB tag).

 

If the owner does not want to change the set-up of his TB to make it less offensive, I cannot see any other way than sending it back to him to avoid that it is getting lost almost surely somewhere during its mission.

 

Again, 'you' have to take the offense. if someone comes up to me and calls me a big, fat stinky cheese-head - it's MY choice to be offended or not. Most likely I'd raise an eyebrow and think some humorous, disparaging thought about the insulter and walk away. In regards to makign them pay - say someone doesn't like yellow jeeps and I buy a yellow jeep. They don't like it, so they slash my tires, tell me they did it, then make me pay for it. How is that fair, just because they don't like yellow jeeps? Obviously the subject matter of the TB here is much more serious, but the principle of it remains the same.

 

A TB cannot speak. More seriously, I did not build up an attitude about the owner of the TB, simply about the TB and the way it makes Austrians feel. I am very glad that someone else wrote in this thread that it is hard for a non-Austrian to judge which emotions he/she would have about the TB if he were Austrian./QUOTE]

 

I was not commenting on a personal feeling of yours towrds the owner, just the TB. Not sure why that wasn't clear - perhaps a language issue. No big deal.

 

I can understand the feelings that some, if not most, Austrians would have about this. I, too, would take offense at a TB distributed by Muslims commemorating 9/11 (in a postive way, that is, not denouncing it). But I would just leave it there and be done with it.

 

Alternatively, if an American Indian were to make a TB memorializing the Trail of Tears, in which over a million American Indians were essentially walked to death (starvation, disease, etc) on their way to a reservation, should I be offended? Some of my very own ancestors might have been involved (on the wrong side) in that forced march. But I would not be offended... Sometimes you have to face what cruelty has happened and move on...

 

As far as the free speech is going on there - by removing the TB, "you've" taken someone elses right to express an opinion. In America, if someone says something stupid and hateful, they just make themselves stupid and hateful and get ignored by most of the population. Someone might tell them off, but that's pretty much about it. There are exceptions, of late, in our overly litigious(sp?) society, but I'm talking about the common man...

 

Did you read this thread? Which action did I take? You are talking of freedom of speech and at the same time you mention "lobbying towards banning of *my* account"? The only thing I did was providing some background information and defending BS (whom I have never met up to know - I do not even his real name) when I felt that the attacks on him were unfair.

I did not attack in a single line the owner of the TB, neither his uncle.

If you felt offended by what I did, I am sorry for that, but it is certainly easier to deal with such an offense than if the offense caused by the TB.

 

1) Yes I read it.

2) See above for my 'you' explanation

3) If you actually slow down and read what I wrote, I said I WAS NOT trying to get you banned, even though I disagreed with you. In other words, supporting your right to speek freely.

4) Re-reading my post, I never said you insulted the owner of the TB or his uncle. What are you talking about?

5) Being offended is alright, the actions involved in this discussion, are, in my opinion NOT alright.

 

That is all I have to say about this. Like it or not, I cannot agree with you on this matter. And you don't seem to be willing to look at the other side of the coin, as I have done above in this post, so there is no point. Let the original poster (and you) think that graveyarding a TB isn't the same as 'destroying' its function. Whatever. Hope you sleep well. I'm done with this conversation. It's clear this is another brick-wall thread that has no hope of ever making anyone open up a little bit.

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n00b. Why are you bothering?

 

Nothing you can say will change the mind of someone who will not listen to you.

 

It seems obvious to me that the person who started this TB made some mistakes, didn't use the best wording possible, and as a result a bunch of people got upset. They didn't set out to offened anyone or start this whole mess, but that's what happenened.

 

It also seems obvious to me that the person who started this thread made some mistakes, didn't use the best wording possible, and as a result a bunch of people got upset. They didn't set out to offened anyone or start this whole mess, but that's what happenened.

 

I can accept that. I might even able to be learn something from it.

 

You're arguing with a brick wall n00b. And while I admire your conviction, there's nothing more than can be accomplished here. You cannot change the mind of a man who is willing to understand that "threw out" means "kept", "contacted TPTB" means "contacted the TB owner and TPTB", and "placed in the graveyard" means "temporarily placed in the graveyard because I didn't want it in my inventory, only my statistics" but refuses to belive that "medical camp at Graz" could mean anything other than what he thinks it means, even if the person who wrote it doesn't know the history like he knows it and has only read the US History books (which he obviously holds in distain). This is a person who will condemn you when he thinks you don't know what he knows but appears to be incapable of forgiving someone else for the same mistakes he allows his friends.

 

There's nothing that can be accomplished by arguing with a person like that. It's like teaching a pig to fly. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.

 

Just walk away.

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It's like teaching a pig to fly. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.

 

Just so we don't confuse the non-native speakers of English:

 

The normal saying is "teaching a pig to sing". (C'mon, you couldn't get close to teaching one to fly!) :huh:

 

As one of the non-singing pigs, I'm not annoyed. But I do look forward to hearing from the TB owner when he makes one of his infrequent stops here. (Maybe a link to this thread should be posted on his TB page?)

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What would happen?  Families would go to the cache, find the TB and instead of having a nice Saturday afternoon in the country with their children, get to have a painful discussion about Nazi otracities.  Is this what you signed up for?  Alternatively, it could become the least visited cache in Austria as long as it has the TB in it.

Actually, Bidredmed, I hope that "painful discussion" does occur. With the way that school history textbooks are sanitized these days, the atrocities get reduced to little soundbites and lose their capacity to truly horrify.

I also wonder which history books are meant here?

 

Anyway, I can already imagine a nice sunny Saturday afternoon with a geocaching family having these painful discussions with their kids of painful history:

 

- ...and then, my child, they cut his head off with a biiig knife and showed it to the camera. They were very mean men.

 

- Honey, don't you ever dare to sodomize detainees with chemical lights or broom sticks! No? 'Atta boy, here, have some candy.

 

- Son, even if you kill 6 million of them, you still can lose the war, and besides it's wrong. WRONG, you hear me?

 

- ...and then these bad men killed all the women and children in that village. Little children just like you too, dear. Now, let's go have something to eat.

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You know, if the bug was called "Kill the Jews" or something I would see how you could be offended. Shame on you for creating a strawman.

I think what I was trying for was an agreement that some subjects or missions could be out-of-bounds for a TB.

 

Now that you agree with that, the discussion revolves around the details of this one. Out-of-bounds? Who decides?

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Nothing you can say will change the mind of someone who will not listen to you.

Maybe insulting more would help? :huh:

Or just being incredibly sarcastic. Divine, do you have children? I ask not to be snotty, just to be curious.

 

Yes, I do think it's my job as a parent to teach my kids about things that won't be discussed in the schoolbooks (note to cezanne- I was speaking of US history books, sorry that I didn't make that clear). I think it's pretty safe to say that I won't be mentioning sodomy to my kid. Sheesh. I mean, if you was explaining to my son where babies come from, how I phrase the answer will be far different right now at age four, then it would be at age ten, or age thirteen. Same goes with the Holocaust.

 

PR

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What would happen?  Families would go to the cache, find the TB and instead of having a nice Saturday afternoon in the country with their children, get to have a painful discussion about Nazi otracities.  Is this what you signed up for?  Alternatively, it could become the least visited cache in Austria as long as it has the TB in it.

Actually, Bidredmed, I hope that "painful discussion" does occur. With the way that school history textbooks are sanitized these days, the atrocities get reduced to little soundbites and lose their capacity to truly horrify.

I also wonder which history books are meant here?

Probably the reference is to US school history books.

 

My experience is that a [uS high school] world history class normally runs out of time around World War I so what we learn of WWII is from other sources.

 

I guessing, though, that Austrians are a bit more educated on WWII and don't feel the need for a "teachable moment" on this subject.

 

(I would say fewer than 10% of Americans could even identify Austria on a map of Europe.)

 

And this sort of teachable moment isn't what a geocaching family is looking for on their hunt.

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The aspect that is missing in your comment is the description of the TB: The offensive thing is not that it deals with a very sad chapter of history which will hopefully not repeat. If the goal of the TB were to visit places of Nazi crimes as an act of remembrance and if this happened with a feeling of mourning about the victims, then this thread would no exist.

There you go assuming that the bug's mission is something other than what is on the bug's page. Nowhere does it say that the bug is meant to visit those sites "to rub it in" or something along those lines. Just because the owner didn't say "visit as an act of remembrance" doesn't mean he had malicious intent.

 

Current GOAL:  To leave Florida and head back to Germany, from there to Dollersheim (Austria), and then the medical camp at Graz (Austria). Maybe to eastern Europe where he fought, and finally back to Florida and the Silent Professionals cache where he can meet his cousin (DF1).

 

About this item:

World War II was a trying time for many families in America and Europe, especially those who had family in both, and as in the American Civil War, many had family members on both sides of the conflict. My family was no different. My dad's family had originally come from Germany, and many stayed there and still do to this day. At the outset of the war, one of my great uncles joined the german military (Waffen SS) and like many military members in my family, went into infantry, but also received some medical training. Soon he was on his way to eastern Europe to fight against resistance there (established by allied trainers). The odd thing is that on the American side, my other great uncle was training resistance members in the same area to fight the Germans. Though I don't agree with the politics of the regime he fought for, I can respect the man for doing what he thought was right and being brave enough to fight for his convictions. To place himself in harms way for his country and family - right or wrong, he stills a hero in our family. Divided Family 1 is about our American side.

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n00b. Why are you bothering?

Nothing you can say will change the mind of someone who will not listen to you.

 

But I had tried to listen already from the beginning. I certainly misunderstood him partially (as the usage of "you" is regarded").

 

It seems obvious to me that the person who started this TB made some mistakes, didn't use the best wording possible, and as a result a bunch of people got upset.

...........

 

It also seems obvious to me that the person who started this thread made some mistakes, didn't use the best wording possible, and as a result a bunch of people got upset.

 

Basically I agree, but only to some extent.

Apart from the fact that the background of the TB is a much more serious issue than posting a question on this forum, there is another important difference: If someone got upset by the manner BS asked his question, they could very easily ask for clarifications here and they did receive responses.

 

This not the case for people who come across the TB and feel offended. Apart from the fact that the owner is not reacting at all to attempts to contact him, there are many Austrians and Germans who do not feel to be able to discuss about rather complex topics like the Nazis in English and thus would have major difficulties to communicate their discomfort with the TB's mission.

 

but refuses to belive that "medical camp at Graz" could mean anything other than what he thinks it means, even if the person who wrote it doesn't know the history like he knows it and has only read the US History books (which he obviously holds in distain).

 

BS did not comment on that aspect. It was me who wrote that I find it hard to believe that the owner of the TB knows nothing about the background. My belief is, however, not based on US history books (I am somewhat familiar with what is typically taught in US high schools). It is simply hard to believe for me that in the times of the www where information is so easily accessible someone would send out his TB to a place about which he has not tried to find some information.

But I have to admit that I am a scientist, and most probably I have a different kind of thinking and a greater drive for finding out as much as possible about the truth however it might look like. I never was satisfied with the small portion of knowledge that is taught in schools.

 

This is a person who will condemn you when he thinks you don't know what he knows but appears to be incapable of forgiving someone else for the same mistakes he allows his friends.

 

Neither BS nor myself did condemn any person here. One last time: The issue here is not condemning anyone. Even before reading your postings and the postings of others along the same lines I did not condemn the owner of the TB. The topic of this thread is how to proceed with the TB, and not with the owner.

 

I, however, agree with you that further discussions will not be fruitful, so I am going to quit this discussion.

 

Cezanne

Edited by cezanne
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There you go assuming that the bug's mission is something other than what is on the bug's page. Nowhere does it say that the bug is meant to visit those sites "to rub it in" or something along those lines. Just because the owner didn't say "visit as an act of remembrance" doesn't mean he had malicious intent.

The places he listed (medical camp at Graz and Döllersheim) are not places which can be visited as act of remembrance. It would be a different story for concentration camps, newly built synagogues (at places of old ones which have been destroyed) etc.

 

Moreover, my personal assumptions are not important. I am trying to communicate what people for whom the Nazi regime belongs to their history will feel if they come across the TB. The important thing is not whether the owner of the TB had malicious intent or not.

 

It is well known in communication theory that the message sent by a person and the message received by the audience is not necessarily the same. It might well be that the message the TB owner was intending to send is much more harmless than the message that is arriving at the destination. It makes no sense at all to discuss what the owner of the TB might have had in mind, what counts is that the message communicated by his TB is very offensive for the people at the place where the TB has been sent to.

 

Hence there are three possible alternatives: (1) the TB owner chooses to react and tells us that he did not want to communicate an offensive message and modifies the

description accordingly (then everything will be fine), or (2) he reacts, but tells us that his TB will remain unchanged, or (3) he does not react at all.

 

While it is clear how to deal with case (1), it is still open how to deal with (2) or (3).

 

 

Cezanne

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There you go assuming that the bug's mission is something other than what is on the bug's page. Nowhere does it say that the bug is meant to visit those sites "to rub it in" or something along those lines. Just because the owner didn't say "visit as an act of remembrance" doesn't mean he had malicious intent.

The places he listed (medical camp at Graz and Döllersheim) are not places which can be visited as act of remembrance. It would be a different story for concentration camps, newly built synagogues (at places of old ones which have been destroyed) etc.

So what if a Japanese man were to visit Pearl Harbor? Using your reasoning, he could not possibly visit there as an act of remembrance.

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As your complaint about the order of his actions is regarded:

What is wrong with spending the waiting time until perhaps gc.com or the TB owner will respond, with asking for suggestions in this forum? I cannot see any advantage in putting the TB virtually into a graveyard, keeping slilent and asking for suggestions only after some weeks.

 

BS's posting was a request for suggestions how to proceed, not a posting to judge the owner of the TB or the uncle. Therefore, I cannot see any problem in asking for suggestions before the TB owner has replied.

 

Cezanne

The problem is the last three pages of unnecessary anger and argument.

The bug was already in the virtual graveyard, what was the need for immediately starting this thread?

Do you feel that you have gotten your point across to anyone? Or has anyone convinced you that you might be mistaken?

When I read the initial post I knew where this thread was going to go. Why didn't BalkanSabranje? And, considering what's been said in the posts, why hasn't he closed the thread as being off-topic?

The initial question was "Why isn't there a 'Should be archived' button for travel bugs?" But the question was lost in his outrage about that particular bug.

Somebody should close this thread.

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Do you feel that you have gotten your point across to anyone?

 

As the question is regarded whether or not the TB is offensive, yes I do. Not to all, but to some. Do not forget that many people read this forum, but do not write here (because they are sufficiently wise ...).

 

When I read the initial post I knew where this thread was going to go.  Why didn't BalkanSabranje?

 

My guess is because he is by far not that used to posting in the English-language forums on this server than you, and thus naively believed that a topic with such a serious background would not degenerate in the manner it now happened.

 

The initial question was "Why isn't there a 'Should be archived' button for travel bugs?"

But the question was lost in his outrage about that particular bug.

 

This was only one of several questions asked. It was not the fault of BS that most people did not respond to the particular question you are referring to. Summarizing, it seems, however, that the majority of those who responded to the question thinks that no such option is needed.

 

Somebody should close this thread.

 

Not many people are able to accomplish that.

 

Cezanne

Edited by cezanne
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You know I think I will take this moment to completely forget about all the major heated political discussions going on in the last 3 pages.

 

And I will use that moment to remember the title of this topic "Serious Political Problem" the title is followed by a description that says something to the extent of "why isn't there a should be archived for TBs?"

 

Why isn't there? Because it doesn't come up often enough for it to be a problem. Other than the case at hand. And if everyone could just settler their political differences and live in the present, and not the past, than this case would not be a problem.

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Wow!!! If I had to rate this discussion in the manner of a cache I would definately give it a 5/5 :blink:

 

Most of the discussion gets off track and I think everyone has made some really good comparisons (and some really stupid ones IMHO), but it still all distills down to some less convoluted questions.

 

1. If I'm offended by something in my cache or a cache I am visiting, do I have a right to get rid of it?

 

2. What is considered offensive? Let's face it, a lot of people are easily offended.

 

I suppose we could encumber the entire system more and make every TB be reviewed and sanitized so that NO ONE is offended.... I guess that would possibly leave rocks as a possiblity, but some pro-rock people may find it cruel to the rock :lol:

 

I understand that people are upset and high emotions rarely lead to clear thinking, but arguing your beliefs to other people tends to be nothing more than mental masturbation.

 

For my 2 cents I think of situations like this...

 

When you run across things like this it provides a good reason to reflect upon what you are finding offensive.

 

You find something related to the SS or Nazi Germany/slavery/islam/cowboys and indians/Bush/Clinton.... yada yada yada - maybe this is just the type of opportunity to discuss it with whomever is present (kids or friends).

 

I would be inclined to go on and on, but I'm just basically saying that like everything in life, IT"S WHAT YOU MAKE OF IT.

 

As for TB's, you usually know what bug is where and if you don't want younger eyes to see something... don't take them to that cache until it goes on... even better, go there alone and move it on it's way and then come back with the kiddo's.

I only mention the kids since I feel that as adults we are supposed to be able to deal with upleasant situations.

 

I would like to say thank you to all those that have posted to this thread, I've learned a lot and it made me think, but that's just me making the best of a situation :sad:

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2. What is considered offensive? Let's face it, a lot of people are easily offended.

 

I suppose we could encumber the entire system more and make every TB be reviewed and sanitized so that NO ONE is offended.... I guess that would possibly leave rocks as a possiblity, but some pro-rock people may find it cruel to the rock :blink:

 

When you run across things like this it provides a good reason to reflect upon what you are finding offensive.

 

You find something related to the SS or Nazi Germany/slavery/islam/cowboys and indians/Bush/Clinton.... yada yada yada - maybe this is just the type of opportunity to discuss it with whomever is present (kids or friends).

 

The whole debate about this issue can be seen in your post.

 

The issue can't be seen in black and white.

 

The thing about this debate is that we have an apple/apple debate but we are debating between blah red delicious store bought apples versus some hand picked from the orchard apple of a unique variety. We are trying to group 20 year old port and a bottle of white zin and, while they are both wine and both made from grapes, the two are not even close to each other. We are comparing picowatts to kilowatts.

 

What we need to consider is that the Waffen SS were some of the people responsible for the autrocities that echo forward even today. This is a far greater pain than simply taking offense at something. I am offended by Bill Clinton's behavior as president. He conducted himself shamefully at times. At his worst, he isn't even a blip on the offensive meter when calibrated for the nazi's.

 

Being offended by a TB or other contents needs to be balanced by the perspective of how serious the offense is. In this case, you have a pretty high score on the severity meter.

 

The cache owner should have pulled the TB and contacted the owner. If he fails to respond, then the cache owner should send the TB to the TB graveyard. Normally, I wouldn't see it that way, but in this case, the offensiveness crosses the line where the balance shifts this way.

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