Serious Political Problem.

[+Bull Moose]

It's Wehrmacht not Werrmacht, but that's just a minor issue. (Wehr means military forces in this context.)

 

And it's pronounced with a V not a W. Crazy German language.

 

The topic here is not about the figurine, but about the background which is given in the

TB's description.

 

Some of the discussion is about the figurine. Some are implying that there will be great offense taken by someone seeing this in a cache.

 

As someone who has two relatives that hit Omaha beach at 0600 on 6 JUNE 44 (one died, that one lived is the reason I am here today), I have no respect for anyone that put on an SS uniform, but I wanted to point out there is a world of difference between regular Wehrmacht and the SS. Some of the people as depecited in the figurine were indeed just fighting for their own lives.

 

OK, that said, yeah, I agree the goal for this bug, if not the entire bug, is in bad taste. But that's nothing that can be assessed by just looking at the bug in the cache.

[+Bull Moose]

Good to know that the figurine could be a captured Russian, Mongolian, or Korean stuffed into a uniform. This certainly makes it much easier to accept the TB in question...

Gosh, that really makes me mad!

Hmm... Maybe it's just me, but I have a lot more sympathy for a POW forced to fight against his allies than an SS officer practicing genocide.

 

My point is the bug as itself isn't offensive. Coupled with the description on the web, I can see it being offensive.

[Laogai]

My point is the bug as itself isn't offensive. Coupled with the description on the web, I can see it being offensive.

Point taken. Thanks for clarification!

[+Team GPSaxophone]

What I find disturbing about this whole thread is that you are showing no respect to the travel bugs owner. You're basically saying, all descendents of Nazi soldiers should die. They do not deserve respect as human beings.

 

Every battle has a losing side. Would you be equally upset about a travel bug released by a Native American (American Indian) that wants to visit the former tribal lands? How about an English travel bug that wants to see the colonial land formerly belonging to King George? A Japanese TB "dropping in" on a cache in Pearl Harbor?

 

Guess what? Those races/cultures/civilizations still have descendants living in the world. Just because their ancestors were on the "wrong" (i.e. losing) side, doesn't make them any less human. They can still grieve for their loved ones like anyone else. Maybe we should condemn the British because they lost America. Would you be happy then?

 

If you don't like a particular travel bug's mission, feel free to leave it alone. Let someone who isn't so narrow-minded pick it up.

[cezanne]

Some of the discussion is about the figurine. Some are implying that there will be great offense taken by someone seeing this in a cache.

The formulation "seeing it in the cache" was not meant that literally.

 

Since there are not that many caches in Austria, and even less TBs, it is not that uncommon that cachers notice in advance that a TB is waiting in a certain cache and check in advance its goals. For example, I am always doing that in order to know in advance the TB's goal. I do not like to take out a TB whom I cannot help.

 

Moreover, many Austrian cachers follow the recent cache logs in the country and easily come across this TB in a virtual way. (We typically have less than 250 found logs in a month over the whole country, and considerably less in months with cold weather.)

 

That's why I think that the figurine and the TB's description form a kind of unity if the degree of offense is concerned.

 

Cezanne

[+tirediron]

What I find disturbing about this whole thread is that you are showing no respect to the travel bugs owner. You're basically saying, all descendents of Nazi soldiers should die. They do not deserve respect as human beings.

 

Every battle has a losing side. Would you be equally upset about a travel bug released by a Native American (American Indian) that wants to visit the former tribal lands? How about an English travel bug that wants to see the colonial land formerly belonging to King George? A Japanese TB "dropping in" on a cache in Pearl Harbor?

 

Guess what? Those races/cultures/civilizations still have descendants living in the world. Just because their ancestors were on the "wrong" (i.e. losing) side, doesn't make them any less human. They can still grieve for their loved ones like anyone else. Maybe we should condemn the British because they lost America. Would you be happy then?

 

If you don't like a particular travel bug's mission, feel free to leave it alone. Let someone who isn't so narrow-minded pick it up.

Couldn't have said it better myself Saxy! Isn't there a famous quote somewhere about "children are not responsible for the [alleged] sins of the parents? This whole "I think it's wrong, therefore it should be destroyed" attitude is redolent of the same intolerance esposed by a certain political party led by the son on an ex Austrian customs agent...

[Laogai]

What I find disturbing about this whole thread is that you are showing no respect to the travel bugs owner. You're basically saying, all descendents of Nazi soldiers should die. They do not deserve respect as human beings.

Sax, please reconsider this!

Nobody posting in this thread said that all descendents of Nazi soldiers should die.

And (I hope) nobody thinks so!!!!!

[+beejay&esskay]

You're basically saying, all descendents of Nazi soldiers should die. They do not deserve respect as human beings.

Boy, that's a stretch.

 

(By the way, I don't think anyone suggested the TB is the descendent of the great-uncle.)

 

I'm guessing (and I've been trying to be careful not to conclude anything, since we haven't heard from the TB-owner) that the TB owner didn't know the details of what happened at that medical facility in Graz. (If that is actually where his great uncle served.)

 

You aren't responsible for what your ancestors did. But if and when the TB owner reads this thread, I think he'll rethink the appropriateness of the TB's current mission.

 

(I'm qualified to join the Sons of the Confederacy. I wouldn't...and I'm not going to make a Johnny Reb TB either.)

[+Johnnie Stalkers]

 

NIEN!

[+Bull Moose]

cezanne:I can see your point. "In the cache" not only means physically, but also that the description is attached to the cache page.

 

Personally, this whole thread makes me long for the days of more simple discussions about well hung monkey TBs.

[+TeamK-9]

I have to agree with my good buddy saxy. How is something like this any less offensive than the TB of the stuffed animal with the large genitals...

 

I agree that the bug might not be 100% appropriate but it doesn't really advocate that the nazi cause was a good cause, just sort of acknowledges that the stuff happened...

[cezanne]

You're basically saying, all descendents of Nazi soldiers should die. They do not deserve respect as human beings.

 

Up to now I tried to remain calm. Do you really mean what you wrote?

We had quite some diverse opinions here, but really nobody made any such claim.

The discussion was about the offense caused by the TB, and not about the owner and his family.

 

Sending around such a TB shows a lack for respect for the many victims of the Nazi regime. I have some difficulties in believing that the owner of the TB did not inform himself about places like Döllersheim and the medical camp in Graz before sending out his TB, but in case he responds to this thread or to the mail of BS and tells us/BS that he feels sorry for the offense caused and either removes his TB from the game or changes it to a respectful item, I would be satisfied with the outcome.

 

Every battle has a losing side.

 

Now I am really confused. Maybe I am working too long hours ....

About which battle are you talking?

Did you realize that Austrians feel annoyed about the TB?

Do you believe that they have been on the winning side?

 

If you don't like a particular travel bug's mission, feel free to leave it alone. Let someone who isn't so narrow-minded pick it up.

 

I cannot imagine that there exists a cacher in Austria who is willing to pick up the TB "Divided Family 2". So, are you saying that all Austrians are narrow-minded?

Moreover, members of several other nationalities have agreed that the message of this TB is very offensive. Are all these people narrow-minded?

 

 

Cezanne

Edited May 19, 2004 by cezanne

[+Team GPSaxophone]

What I find disturbing about this whole thread is that you are showing no respect to the travel bugs owner. You're basically saying, all descendents of Nazi soldiers should die. They do not deserve respect as human beings.

Sax, please reconsider this!

Nobody posting in this thread said that all descendents of Nazi soldiers should die.

And (I hope) nobody thinks so!!!!!

What I meant by that is, these people won't let them be proud of their heritage.

 

Sure, the Nazis comitted horrible crimes, killed millions of people, etc. However, the Nazis that did that are all (let's see, the war ended roughly 60 years ago, the youngest soldiers would have been 17 or so then, carry the 2...) 77 years old, and most of them are already dead. Did every Nazi in the war kill someone? No. Is every Nazi evil? No. They were soldiers following orders. That doesn't make the killers and murderers of the Nazi regime any less responsible for their own actions, but some of them did good things. Maybe the travel bug owner is the descendant of a war hero. His father/grandfather fought for his country. He was a patriot. Just because his leader was wrong doesn't take that away. He is allowed to be proud of his ancestors, whether they were on the winning side or the losing one.

 

We have similar problems in America. Whites persecuted the blacks (slavery), so to make up for it the descendents of slaves sue the government for reparations (spelling?). Blacks get February as "Black history month" and it is considered PC for them to make jokes about white people. However, make one comment about blacks and you're deemed racist. There is no "White history month". Affirmative action laws discriminate against whites by putting an underqualified candidate in a position just because they are of a different race.

[+Team GPSaxophone]

I agree that the bug might not be 100% appropriate but it doesn't really advocate that the nazi cause was a good cause, just sort of acknowledges that the stuff happened...

Bingo, K-9! You're pretty smart for a kid (no offense)

[cezanne]

He was a patriot. Just because his leader was wrong doesn't take that away. He is allowed to be proud of his ancestors, whether they were on the winning side or the losing one.

He can be proud of whomever he wants to, but do you really believe that the places where he wishes to send his TB to constitute reasonable goals to show his family pride? In my opinion, he is mainly causing a big offense.

 

How can you compare the medical experiments undertaken by the Nazis with fighting a battle? Certainly both things are evil things, but for me there is still a difference between the Nazi crimes, and taking part in a battle as a soldier.

 

Cezanne

Edited May 19, 2004 by cezanne

[+TeamK-9]

Was the TB meant to offend thousands of people persecuted by the Nazi's?

 

Probably not..

 

Also you have to notice that the family member who was in the SS signed up to be a German Military man. You have to use logic here. Not all Nazi's are German and not all Germans were Nazi's. He signed up for the German army and served as he was told, he might have been serving under a Nazi leader, but just because he was in an army led by a Nazi, doesn't mean that he was a Nazi.

 

He was in an army led by a member of a political group, does that mean he was a member of that political group?

 

Probably not..

 

Nazi's were a political party, actually to be exact, dictionary.com referes to nazi's as "A member of the National Socialist German Workers' Party, founded in Germany in 1919 and brought to power in 1933 under Adolf Hitler. "

 

So he was in an army led by a member of a certain political party, but does that mean he was the same political affiliation?

 

Probably not..

 

And in closing, I'd like to highlight I comment on the bug's page:

Though I don't agree with the politics of the regime he fought for, I can respect the man for doing what he thought was right and being brave enough to fight for his convictions. To place himself in harms way for his country and family - right or wrong, he stills a hero in our family.

 

Did you read that comment and thoroughly consider it before complaining to Groundspeak?

 

Probably not..

[+Divine]

What I find disturbing about this whole thread is that you are showing no respect to the travel bugs owner. You're basically saying, all descendents of Nazi soldiers should die. They do not deserve respect as human beings.

What I meant by that is, these people won't let them be proud of their heritage.

:)

[uperdooper]

[+Divine]

Was the TB meant to offend thousands of people persecuted by the Nazi's?

 

Probably not..

 

[snip]

 

He was in an army led by a member of a political group, does that mean he was a member of that political group?

 

Probably not..

 

[snip]

 

So he was in an army led by a member of a certain political party, but does that mean he was the same political affiliation?

 

Probably not..

That's all beside the point. The bug owner probably didn't want to offend anyone, and it's possible that the great uncle wasn't a 'real' Nazi but a real hero, and the bug owner probably (most likely) didn't inform him/herself of the nature of Medical Camp Graz. That doesn't remove the fact that the TB as it is now is highly offensive for thousands of people, as probably an airplane TB sent to southern Manhattan and Pentagon commemoriating those brave enough to to die for their convictions would be. Even if the owner of that bug didn't agree with the ideology behind that, and didn't want to offend anyone.

[Laogai]

Let's say I was related by family to some of those plane hijackers who crashed into WTC couple of years ago. (No, I'm not.) Of course, I in no way agree with that action, but what if I wanted to create a small airplane Travel Bug and set it to visit caches in southern Manhattan and near Pentagon? Not to glorify the murdering of innocents, but just to honor the memory of 'my uncle' who was brave enough to die for his convictions. You think the cache owners would be happy to help the TB towards its goal?

 

Or a TB commemorating 'my uncle' who served in My Lai and did what what he believed what was right?

 

Or a TB in honor of 'my brother' who served in Abu Ghraib and who is presently court-martialled. The TB would have some of those neat photos attached, where my bro was doing his job with the detainees.

Great idea! I think I'll release this bugs soon. My bet is there'll be an uproar in this forum within a few hours.

Got the picture?

[+Red Clover]

After checking back with the local community (that unanimously expressed their conviction of TBs like this not being tolerable) we plan to throw the TB out of our cache and bury him in one of the TB graveyards.

 

On the "destroy stuff" line of thought. What did you do w/ the TB dog tag and figurine? Did you mail them back to the owner? Send him the money to replace them?

 

If you didn't do either of these things I can agree you have destroyed his stuff.

 

I may not agree with what you have to say ... but I will defend your right to say it. A valuable quote. I may not agree w/ something but I'd not restrict anyone else (but my kids depending on age and context) based on what I personally consider offensive.

 

edit: clarity

Edited May 19, 2004 by Red Clover

[+Perfect Tommy]

We are talking about Waffen SS here, right? Those fellows weren't Boy Scouts. Anybody remember the fuss over Bitburg? Even the combat Waffen SS units were known for their atrocities. My only suggestion is to try to educate the TB owner about the Waffen SS through his own bug. Take the bug to any number of concentration camps, experimental medical facilities, prison camps, extermination camps, etc. and take pictures of the handiwork of the Nazis and their legacy. If someone launched a Jihad Plane TB with a goal to visit Ground Zero and it ended up in my cache, I'd take it around to every single 9/11 memorial around instead. In short, co-opt the bug's mission but don't destroy the bug.

[cezanne]

After checking back with the local community (that unanimously expressed their conviction of TBs like this not being tolerable) we plan to throw the TB out of our cache and bury him in one of the TB graveyards.

 

On the "destroy stuff" line of thought. What did you do w/ the TB and figurine? Did you mail them back to the owner? Send him the money to replace them?

 

If you didnt do either of these things I can agree you have destroyed his stuff.

 

Please consider that BS is not a native speaker of English and that he felt a strong offense when he found the Divided Family 2 TB in his cache. In how many foreign languages are you able to express yourself consisely in all kinds of situations?

 

Of course "throw out" (rauswerfen in German) was not meant in the sense that he took the TB and put it into the next wastebasket. He was referring mainly to the virtual action of logging the TB out of his cache and logging it into a TB graveyard because he does not want to have it in its inventory.

 

All other actions you suggest cannot be taken unless the owner of the TB responds to the mail BS has sent to him .... All this has been explained already several times in this thread.

 

 

Cezanne

Edited May 19, 2004 by cezanne

[+Divine]

After checking back with the local community (that unanimously expressed their conviction of TBs like this not being tolerable) we plan to throw the TB out of our cache and bury him in one of the TB graveyards.

On the "destroy stuff" line of thought. What did you do w/ the TB and figurine? Did you mail them back to the owner? Send him the money to replace them?

As I've read it in this thread, the TB owner has been contacted. If they haven't replied, it's pretty dadgum difficult to send anything to them.

 

If you didnt do either of these things I can agree you have destroyed his stuff.

Umm, come again? If they haven't sent the TB owner (who they have contacted but whose snail mail address or bank account information they don't know) any money or the TB itself, you deduce the TB owner's stuff has been destroyed? Riiight...

 

I may not agree with what you have to say ... but I will defend your right to say it.  A valuable quote.  However I do not agree that you have a right to resrict to what I may or may not hear/see/do based on what you find offensive.

I've heard Michael Moore has something to say, but somewhere he's restricted to say it. (Not necessarily by you, of course.)

 

My only suggestion is to try to educate the TB owner about the Waffen SS through his own bug. Take the bug to any number of concentration camps, experimental medical facilities, prison camps, extermination camps, etc. and take pictures of the handiwork of the Nazis and their legacy. If someone launched a Jihad Plane TB with a goal to visit Ground Zero and it ended up in my cache, I'd take it around to every single 9/11 memorial around instead. In short, co-opt the bug's mission but don't destroy the bug.

That's actually pretty good idea.

[MOCKBA]

Blacks get February as "Black history month" and it is considered PC for them to make jokes about white people. However, make one comment about blacks and you're deemed racist.

You are not alone to trivialize the problem as "merely PC". If you have taken time to read the thread, you would probably reconsider.

Cachers were not offended by the mere fact that the bug owner has an SS ancestor and was to a degree proud of his great-uncle, or that he sent out a bug to re-trace the great-uncle's travels. Cachers were not out to destroy t-bugs with the messages they merely find distasteful, either.

The point is that the travel-bug's mission is to visit the sites of Nazi crimes against humanity, while wearing a Nazi uniform and with the message of Nazi pride. This is far beyond the treshold of political correctness. This is truly hateful and inciting, and cachers were essentially at loss at what are the proper steps to prevent the damage.

It's like if somebody is very proud of one's KKK ancestor, and sends a Klansman bug to revisit the sites of assassinations and bombings perpetrated by the Klan, with the message of pride and unrepentance. And if people take offense ... will you also say that these people are narrow-minded and too PC and the question is mute since the blacks also tell racist jokes?

[squirrel71]

Hello.

 

QUOTE (Perfect Tommy @ May 20 2004, 01:32 AM)

My only suggestion is to try to educate the TB owner about the Waffen SS through his own bug. Take the bug to any number of concentration camps, experimental medical facilities, prison camps, extermination camps, etc. and take pictures of the handiwork of the Nazis and their legacy. If someone launched a Jihad Plane TB with a goal to visit Ground Zero and it ended up in my cache, I'd take it around to every single 9/11 memorial around instead. In short, co-opt the bug's mission but don't destroy the bug.

 

A few weeks ago I had nearly the opportunity to get this bug when it was deposit in a cache near Aachen. I didn´t catch this bug that day because after I had also searched for some other caches it was too late in the evening so I cancelled that cache. But I must confess I wasn`t aware about the special issues of the specially named locations the cache should go to at that time but I can understand that cachers might be offended by this TB.

 

Well if I had cached the TB I would have taken it into this cache

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...&log=y&decrypt=

 

It´s placed on a trail of remembrance of the battle of hurtgenwald ( hurtgen forest) 60 years ago.

 

http://www.hurtgen1944.homestead.com/Index.html

 

So would this cache have been PC and educational enough for this TB ?

 

Squirrel71

[+bons]

Please consider that BS is not a native speaker of English and that he felt a strong offense when he found the Divided Family 2 TB in his cache. In how many foreign languages are you able to express yourself consisely in all kinds of situations?

I'm really enjoying the irony that the person who started this thread is being forgiven for not telling us that he contacted the owner, using the words "thrown out" to describe holding onto something, and saying that he was moving it into the TB graveyard with no explanation of why.

 

What makes this particularly funny is that the person who started this TB is being flamed for having suggested that this TB visits areas where his ancestor may have served, and cezanne doesn't seem willing to cut him a break for his mistakes.

 

If the person who started this TB got half the forgiveness and the breaks cezanne suggests the person who started this thread deserves, this would have never been an issue.

 

See you in the funny papers!

[+Team GPSaxophone]

The point is that the travel-bug's mission is to visit the sites of Nazi crimes against humanity, while wearing a Nazi uniform and with the message of Nazi pride.

I don't see that anywhere on the bug's page (I bolded the parts that mention the great-uncles Nazi connection)

 

Current GOAL:  To leave Florida and head back to Germany, from there to Dollersheim (Austria), and then the medical camp at Graz (Austria). Maybe to eastern Europe where he fought, and finally back to Florida and the Silent Professionals cache where he can meet his cousin (DF1).

 

About this item:

World War II was a trying time for many families in America and Europe, especially those who had family in both, and as in the American Civil War, many had family members on both sides of the conflict. My family was no different. My dad's family had originally come from Germany, and many stayed there and still do to this day. At the outset of the war, one of my great uncles joined the german military (Waffen SS) and like many military members in my family, went into infantry, but also received some medical training. Soon he was on his way to eastern Europe to fight against resistance there (established by allied trainers). The odd thing is that on the American side, my other great uncle was training resistance members in the same area to fight the Germans. Though I don't agree with the politics of the regime he fought for, I can respect the man for doing what he thought was right and being brave enough to fight for his convictions. To place himself in harms way for his country and family - right or wrong, he stills a hero in our family. Divided Family 1 is about our American side.

some medical training sure doesn't mention anything about medical experiments and such.

 

Just because *you* know of certain things that happened at those places doesn't mean the bug's owner or his great-uncle do.

Edited May 20, 2004 by Team GPSaxophone

[+Renegade Knight]

You know, I've been avoiding this thread and finally read it.

 

I'm English, Irish, Scottish, have a German Heritage and my father was adopted. He has dark skin of indeterminate origin. He could pass for Hispanic, Italian or Arab. One of my daughters is Nordic Blond so a Viking was probably involved along the way.

 

By rights I should probably put a bullet in my own head to quell the conflicts that my heritage brings together in who I am. There is no conflict. There is good and bad in everything, everyone, and every culture. My biggest goal is to be a good parent, provide for my family and hope my kids do the same for their kids.

 

There is no culture on earth that didn't get it's butt kicked or didn't do some kicking in their time. Being in the USA is essentially a guarantee that your ancestors butt's were being kicked or your ancestors would of had no reason to come here.

 

WWII proved the Germans were hard working, industrious, creative, and dutiful. The right and wrong of the war was not in the hands of most of the soldiers who fought. This was true of both sides and there were heroes on both sides. Recently I visited the site of an internment camp that was located in South Central Idaho. The USA rounded up it own citizens of Japanese decent and put them in camps during WWII. They were prisoners. It was not one of our better moments as a nation. Were I to turn my back on that, turn my back on reality I would be less of a person for it.

[+New England n00b]

In Nazi society there was no real freedom of expression. The Nazi's are gone (thankfully), but the culture of no freedom of expression remains.

 

Different side of the same coin.

[+Red Clover]

You know, I've been avoiding this thread and finally read it.

 

I'm English, Irish, Scottish, have a German Heritage and my father was adopted. He has dark skin of indeterminate origin. He could pass for Hispanic, Italian or Arab. One of my daughters is Nordic Blond so a Viking was probably involved along the way.

 

By rights I should probably put a bullet in my own head to quell the conflicts that my heritage brings together in who I am. There is no conflict. There is good and bad in everything, everyone, and every culture. My biggest goal is to be a good parent, provide for my family and hope my kids do the same for their kids.

 

There is no culture on earth that didn't get it's butt kicked or didn't do some kicking in their time. Being in the USA is essentially a guarantee that your ancestors butt's were being kicked or your ancestors would of had no reason to come here.

 

WWII proved the Germans were hard working, industrious, creative, and dutiful. The right and wrong of the war was not in the hands of most of the soldiers who fought. This was true of both sides and there were heroes on both sides. Recently I visited the site of an internment camp that was located in South Central Idaho. The USA rounded up it own citizens of Japanese decent and put them in camps during WWII. They were prisoners. It was not one of our better moments as a nation. Were I to turn my back on that, turn my back on reality I would be less of a person for it.

Lets hear it for RK!!! Very nicely done.

 

On a similar train of thought. I recently had someone bash me for wanting to set up a cache near the only segregated cemetery in my area. They called me racist. I disagree. I used that cemetery as a lesson to my son on how stupid it was that people were once ( ) judge by the color of their skin.. and that even in death we were not equal in the past. My 7 yr old son said " thats stupid why would it matter?".

[+Team GPSaxophone]

On a similar train of thought. I recently had someone bash me for wanting to set up a cache near the only segregated cemetery in my area. They called me racist. I disagree. I used that cemetery as a lesson to my son on how stupid it was that people were once ( ) judge by the color of their skin.. and that even in death we were not equal in the past. My 7 yr old son said " thats stupid why would it matter?".

"Everyone's equal. Some are more equal than others."

[+Anne Bonney]

 

  ...right or wrong, he stills a hero in our family.

I think what got me going on this thread was this closing statement by the bug's owner. That's the rubbing point for me. The bug owner also states that his uncle was "Trained to fight the Resistence". Hmmmm.

 

The questions regarding what the bug owner may or may not know about the actions/level of complicity/etc. of his uncle is hard to know, but "got some medical training" may just be a spin to cover the bug owner's very through knowledge of what may be his uncle's participation in annilitating "enemies". Or not. I'd sure like to hear from him on this. (He sure has an audience waiting for him, huh?)

 

Whether any of you respondants to this thread like/buy into/support "PC" or not, there's something way beyond that in what is represented by the figurine used, the listed locations to travel to, and the extremity of the actions of the reigning German regime. And, bottom line for me: If the survivors of victims are this offended, then respect needs to be given to their response. This isn't just one guy getting miffed. It's an entire region, or more, based on what the Austrian respondants are telling us.

 

Yes, we can learn from history (if we choose to) but, even better than that, we can learn from the ones who live with the aftermath, or success (depending). There's no better source, as any vet I know will tell you. My respect goes to those who are feeling such offense. It's my way of trying to make sure I listen before I put my preconcieved notions out there. I sure would want someone to listen to me if I were in their shoes. It's a lot better to listen and politely disagree than to just slam the door and stay entrenched. IF that's PC, so be it. I consider basic human compassion and as much reparation I can afford. And, it's so much more meaningful than a fistful of money--or would be to me if I needed to make a choice.

 

I'm with the poster who suggested the bug's goals be co-opted and redirected by those who might consider doing so.

 

I, too, would pay to have the bug sent to me, and I would pay to replace the bug tags with the owner. I have a couple of uncles in Britan who have some feelings about what is represented by the figurine.

[+Divine]

The point is that the travel-bug's mission is to visit the sites of Nazi crimes against humanity, while wearing a Nazi uniform and with the message of Nazi pride.

I don't see that anywhere on the bug's page

For example, the medical camp at Graz is mentioned. You know (oh yeah, you probably don't), they didn't heal sick little jewish kids there. And you didn't see the uniform the figurine is wearing?

 

Just because *you* know of certain things that happened at those places doesn't mean the bug's owner or his great-uncle do.

That's become very clear in this thread. It's not the first time I hear people arguing knowingly about some historical facts and it turns out they don't know anything about the matter they're speaking of. Happens in these forums too.

 

The main point hasn't been on flaming the TB owner. It's possible that he has never realized what kind of a hot potato that kind of a bug can be. But the ignorance of the TB owner doesn't make the TB any less offensive. Similar TB would be a little white hooded Klansman figurine visiting the southern places in the US where the owner's great great uncle has 'served', and who's owner just didn't know all the facts behind the secret society his ancestor was a member of.

 

The fact that you don't know you're doing something wrong doesn't make the deed itself right.

[+New England n00b]

Offense is where you find it. You have to choose to be offended.

 

Ah... who cares. Free speech isn't allowed in Austria. SO this whole thing is moot.

 

Destroy the stupid TB. And, as far as the TB owner is concerned, you ARE destroying it. Keeping it locked in limbo somewhere, or making THEM pay for YOU to send it back because YOU are offended effectively destroys the TB.

 

Heil whoevers-in-charge-at-the-moment.

 

[WH]

I guess I should hold off on sending my miniature replica of the Enola Gay as a TB to Hiroshima then huh.

[+Divine]

I guess I should hold off on sending my miniature replica of the Enola Gay as a TB to Hiroshima then huh.

Nah, if they get offended, they just choose to do so. Like Louisiana chose to get offended by low-riding pants. Another fine example of free speech.

[+bons]

For example, the medical camp at Graz is mentioned.

Ok. Let's discuss "the medical camp at Graz".

 

The path of the TB:

To leave Florida and head back to Germany, from there to Dollersheim (Austria), and then the medical camp at Graz (Austria). Maybe to eastern Europe where he fought, and finally back to Florida and the Silent Professionals cache where he can meet his cousin.

.

The history in question:

My dad's family had originally come from Germany, and many stayed there and still do to this day. At the outset of the war, one of my great uncles joined the german military (Waffen SS) and like many military members in my family, went into infantry, but also received some medical training. Soon he was on his way to eastern Europe to fight against resistance there (established by allied trainers).

What the Austrians in this thread aren't telling anyone:

The SS 3 (perhaps the best trained branch of the SS General Service Troops) received training in Graz, not surprising since Graz is a major city with an excellent teaching facilities including a university that's been around since 1585.

 

It seems highly likely that a new solider in the SS 3 would be temporarily stationed at Graz to receive their training. It seems very unlikely that a temporarily stationed soldier would be involved with or even informed of what was really happening in other sections of Graz.

 

Unfortunately, people in this thread have pronounced guilt by association.

Here's what's happened as far as justice in this thread seems to be concerned.

1) He was in the SS, an extremly large army divided in many parts.

2) He was temporily stationed in one of the largest cities of Austria.

3) He received medical training there.

 

How we've gone from these two things to the six barracks at KZ Gusen where horrors occurred is beyond me. But that's where it's gone. People have decided for themselves that "medical training" = war crime in this case, when, in fact, no real indication of that sort actually exists.

 

Go ahead and keep justifying your actions and making excuses. But if you piss on my leg and tell me it's raining I'm not going to believe you.

Edited May 20, 2004 by bons

[+Cache Viking]

Well said bons.

[+NCGrimbo]

All I have to say on this is that if anyone finds the following TB's offensive, feel free to do to them what BalkanSabranje does to the the one he's having problems with.

 

http://www.geocaching.com/track/details.aspx?id=82237

http://www.geocaching.com/track/details.aspx?id=78159

 

Yes, these are BalkanSabranje's TBs. I'm sure he'll understand that you've destroyed his TB's because you were offended by smurfs and Thomas Bernhard.

 

BTW: Anyone that censors TB's is no better than the SS.

[+Perfect Tommy]

Maybe someone can take the bug for a visit to Malmedy

[+Divine]

Anyone that censors TB's is no better than the SS.

Now that's putting things into right context.

[GeoWorms]

All I have to say on this is that if anyone finds the following TB's offensive, feel free to do to them what BalkanSabranje does to the the one he's having problems with....

 

I think it's pretty obvious that the original poster is not advocating that any individual who is offended by a TB can pronounce judgement by himself, and take whatever action he feels like.

 

 

I wrote the following to TPTB yesterday...

Please give me a hint as how to correctly solve this problem...

After checking back with the local community...

Any serious advice is welcome...

 

He is appealing for a community judgement in four separate places in his original post.

 

If he really belived anyone who's offended by a TB can "destroy" it he never would have posted this thread to begin with.

[+mcweb]

I shouldn't even get involved in this post, but I have a question for those who have been actively following and participating in this forum.

 

I met someone who was at Auschwitz during the war. He did not want to be there, but had no choice. He would have been killed if he didn't do the duties assigned to him. These duties included pulling dead bodies from the gas chamber and stacking them on carts to be taken away. He also took anything of value from these bodies, including watches, gold teeth, and rings (cutting off fingers to retrieve them). I'm sure that he hated every minute of it. Is he a bad person just because he did these things? I'd like to know what the people in this forum think about this man.

 

McWeb

[MOCKBA]

After great hesitation, I decided to jump back in to try to redirect this thread back to the topic.

Several cachers think, for whatever reason, that this thread is to decide if former Nazis are all bad people, or to defend freedom of TB speech. The first question is pretty much OT. The second one may need to be moved elsewhere. It's been a hilarious sub-thread to say the truth, where the US cachers, in an a single breath, tell the Europeans to live up to the American high standart of free speech, and at the same time mourn the totall loss of American free speech to political correctness. Go figure.

The problem with Divided Family 2 TB was not a matter of political philosophy. The bug could have been made out of Nazi infantryman figurine; or it could have said nothing but good about a long deceased SS man; or it could have set a goal of visiting Hitler's hometown, or the camp run by killer doctors of the Nazi regime, or the locations where SS forces supressed Resistance fighters and commited uncounted atrocities against civilians. Either of these goals, though potentially objectionable to some, is pretty much tolerable; certainly nobody said otherwise on this thread.

The problem is that the bug tried to achive all of the above at once. That's just way overboard. Something's gotta give.

And many of the solutions offered thus far tried to ameliorate one component of the mix, while leaving others intact. E.g. to replace the figurine; or to alter the goal. It's hard to decide without the bug owners' input though. And the high-flying polemics of late doesn't help either.

Edited May 20, 2004 by MOCKBA

[+Perfect Tommy]

You are asking for our opinion of this man. But more facts are needed. For instance:

 

He did not want to be there, but had no choice. He would have been killed if he didn't do the duties assigned to him.

 

Was he there involuntarily (i.e., a Jew, Gypsy, Jehovah's Witness, Slav, Pole, homosexual, Russian POW, etc.) or was he enlisted in the German Armed Forces that ran the camp?

[+mcweb]

You are asking for our opinion of this man. But more facts are needed. For instance:

 

He did not want to be there, but had no choice. He would have been killed if he didn't do the duties assigned to him.

 

Was he there involuntarily (i.e., a Jew, Gypsy, Jehovah's Witness, Slav, Pole, homosexual, Russian POW, etc.) or was he enlisted in the German Armed Forces that ran the camp?

Thank you! You made my point entirely for me. The people of this forum do not have the information about this man, and they don't have all the information about the TB owner's uncle. We do not know if he served voluntarily or because he was expected, forced, or otherwise made to serve in the SS. We don't know if he agreed with killing innocent people in horrible ways, or if he actually killed anyone. We don't know if he seved as medic or as a doctor or just had some medical training. We also don't know what the purpose of this TBs goal is. Maybe the owner just wanted to remember the past (much like the half a million visitors that go to Auschwitz every year). Maybe he was trying to raise awareness that not everyone on the German's side was bad, or maybe he wanted to show that even though his uncle fought for the Germans, his family still loved and honored his memory.

 

The point I'm trying to make is: not enough information is given to come to a conlusion about the explicit meaning behind this bug. Everyone can form their own opinion; however, there is no way of knowing until the TB owner decides to explain some of his reasons, and that may never happen.

 

McWeb

 

P.S. Does it matter if the person in my example was a "Jew, Gypsy, Jehovah's Witness, Slav, Pole, homosexual, Russian POW[...] or enlisted in the German Armed Forces that ran the camp? " He didn't want to be there and he didn't want to do what he was doing.

[+Perfect Tommy]

Granted, we do not know the great uncle's role. Was he a cook or clerk in a combat unit or was he an officer at a concentration camp? It appears we will never know. He was Waffen SS though. And that fact and the places this totem-TB that the owner wants it to visit are obviously disturbing to the people of that region. Much as a Nathan Bedford Forrest TB would not be appreciated in certain precincts in America.

 

P.S. Does it matter if the person in my example was a "Jew, Gypsy, Jehovah's Witness, Slav, Pole, homosexual, Russian POW[...] or enlisted in the German Armed Forces that ran the camp? " He didn't want to be there and he didn't want to do what he was doing.

 

It makes a world of difference. Trying to equate Waffen SS soldiers to the victims of Nazi tyranny trivializes the Holocaust. Sorry, but "we are all victims" doesn't wash when you are Gestapo or Waffen SS and are running the horror show. At a minimum, ask for a transfer to a combat unit.

 

Frankly, I believe that if the bug owner had not mentioned that his great uncle was Waffen SS you would not get this kind of reaction if instead he was Wehrmacht/Regular German Army.

[cezanne]

I'm really enjoying the irony that the person who started this thread is being forgiven for not telling us that he contacted the owner, using the words "thrown out" to describe holding onto something, and saying that he was moving it into the TB graveyard with no explanation of why.

 

The issue here is not about forgiving. Everyone here could have easily asked BS in case of unclear points in his original posting in which he simply asked for suggestions. I am glad that some of you provided valuable suggestions instead of flaming BS for his post. The fact that he posted this message here shows that he is a diligent person. He could have avoided himself a lot of frustration if he had refrained from asking his question in this forum.

 

As to your specific points, it seems to me that it became quite clear that he wanted to move the TB to a TB graveyard to avoid that it remains in the inventory of his cache or his own inventory.

I already explained that the expression "throw out" has a literal meaning in the German language (at least in the Austrian usage) which is not at all destructive. I ask you again: In how many foreign languages are *you* able to argue with native speakers of that language who are not willing to take into account that a foreigner is not always able to choose the word which fits 100%.

 

What makes this particularly funny is that the person who started this TB is being flamed for having suggested that this TB visits areas where his ancestor may have served, and cezanne doesn't seem willing to cut him a break for his mistakes.

 

I do not regard this a funny. I just feel with BS since I can understand his situation.

Perhaps you should try to go to a forum where you have to argue in a foreign language. Let me then know afterwards your experience.

 

If the person who started this TB got half the forgiveness and the breaks cezanne suggests the person who started this thread deserves, this would have never been an issue.

 

There is another thing you apparently got wrong. The issue here is not to put the owner of the TB into the category of "bad guys". Neither of us is knowing him, and it is not possible to judge someone whom you do not know.

The issue here is also not judging the uncle.

The issue is just judging the TB and saying that it's not appropriate and very offensive in the way it is currently set up.

 

 

Cezanne

Edited May 20, 2004 by cezanne

[Laogai]

Was he there involuntarily (i.e., a Jew, Gypsy, Jehovah's Witness, Slav, Pole, homosexual, Russian POW, etc.) or was he enlisted in the German Armed Forces that ran the camp?

Please read:

At the outset of the war, one of my great uncles joined the german military (Waffen SS) and like many military members in my family, went into infantry, but also received some medical training. Soon he was on his way to eastern Europe to fight against resistance there (established by allied trainers).

Source

 

Hints:

...outset of the war...

...joined...

...like many military members in my family, went into infantry....