Is The Compass And Altimeter Really Worth It?

5.6k · December 8, 2013

While that is true for many of us, again, you have to ASK the user his intentions first! I don't seem to be able to emphasize this enough!

If the cacher doesn't want to use a separate PND in the vehicle, he/she MAY want to pay the higher price for the 24K Garmin topos just to get the routing capability. So once again, there's no hard and fast rule, and there IS room for argument about the value based upon one's caching regimen! WHY do so many people assume that they fully understand how someone else caches?

While OSM can be substituted for that for free vs. the Garmin 24K topos, I haven't had very good luck with them when it comes to routing in some places. For some reason, there appear to be a great number of discontinuities at intersections, etc., that cause the routing to be unreliable. For walking purposes, they're great for finding streets, POIs, walking paths, etc., in urban locales, though. I always load OSM maps on my 450 unit for caching in other countries. It's often far more detailed (especially in Germany!), and it's often not worth buying a map for a couple of days of use. I use a PND in the car, so I have no personal need for the expensive 24K topos at all -- but someone else very well might.

Am I getting through here, yet? Everyone should forget their own way of caching for a moment and consider that there are other possibilities (sigh).

Edited December 8, 2013 by ecanderson

2.7k · December 8, 2013

Item #1: The original topic of this thread wasn't a question of 'necessity', it was a question of 'value'. Why does that keep getting lost in this thread? The 'worth it' factor depends on the individual and how and where they cache. It is impossible, impossible to unequivocally tell a user whether or not they will find the 'worth it' factor in an electronic compass unless you first understand their caching regimen. Those that attempt to do so are being very presumptuous, and most likely assuming that how and where they cache is the only way it happens. I don't think I've seen anyone in any of these threads actually take the time to first ask a user the right questions that would help them to make their individual decision. There are a great many uninformed opinions in these compass threads being provided as sound advice.

Necessity and value are tied together in this case. A higher value is placed in things that are considered a necessity than on things that aren't.

Item #2: As for the 'worth it' and Topo maps, again, it depends upon where and how you cache. Parking lot caches really don't benefit much from a Topo map. OTOH, where I often cache, I wouldn't consider NOT having the topo. Can't even count how many times I'd have wound up on the wrong side of a stream or other obstacle without this feature, so we both share that as a valuable tool in our particular way of caching. As for 'worth', there's often gpsfiledepot or similar to remedy that, and now 'worth it' isn't even an issue for anyone apart from the time spent to download and install them (vs. buying the 24K Garmin topos, where there really is some cost involved). But again, misses the point of the original topic.

I was responding specifically to a comment talking about rocks and heavy underbrush. I agree, those are things not commonly found in parking lots. However, if we are speaking in general terms we have to take all terrains in to account and not just urban environments.

As for where the arrow points, on a non-electronic unit, no it does not always point towards the cache. When you aren't moving at 2mph or so, the unit has no way of knowing which way you (and the unit) are oriented, and hence can't know the vector to the cache.

This statement is false. Go in to the settings and set the map for NORTH IS UP. When looking at the map page with north set to up and pointing the top of the screen to north you certainly can know the vector to the cache area. Assuaging that you didn't materialize within 30 feet of the coordinates for the cache it shouldn't be difficult for most people even in poor conditions to determine which direction north is.

2.6k · December 9, 2013

Let me just say I've cached with many units that had no 3 axis pointer and I've cached with many units that had 3 axis pointers. I've done this in 48 states, from the Pacific to the Atlantic and from Canada to Key West covering every imaginable terrain over the last 10 years. We find the 3 axis pointer extremely valuable and would never go back to a unit without this feature. To the OP you have a decision to make and I hope this helps you evaluate my advice.

2.1k · December 9, 2013

..... To the OP you have a decision to make and I hope this helps you evaluate my advice.

I checked his profile, he has been inactive for over 9 years. Outside of that, this thread got a lot of dander up!!! :rolleyes:

5.6k · December 9, 2013

As for where the arrow points, on a non-electronic unit, no it does not always point towards the cache. When you aren't moving at 2mph or so, the unit has no way of knowing which way you (and the unit) are oriented, and hence can't know the vector to the cache.

This statement is false. Go in to the settings and set the map for NORTH IS UP. When looking at the map page with north set to up and pointing the top of the screen to north you certainly can know the vector to the cache area. Assuaging that you didn't materialize within 30 feet of the coordinates for the cache it shouldn't be difficult for most people even in poor conditions to determine which direction north is.

Nothing false about it. I stand by my statement exactly as written. Perhaps the individual can divine a vector using additional information beyond that provided by the GPS, but the GPS has no clue. Perhaps I put it badly?

The non-electronic compass arrow cannot point to the cache, or north, or anything else, if you are not moving. It requires motion (change in position based upon GPS coordinates) to gauge your own vector and from that makes an assumption about where things are (including the cache) based upon your direction of travel. What you are describing requires that you be carrying a real magnetic compass or have a pigeon's innate sense of where north is in order to orient yourself in the direction of the cache. In the middle of the woods, it's not always possible to have a very precise idea of where north is, especially in a dry climate like ours. No, I'd rather have the arrow pointing toward the cache than presume to trust my own idea of north, especially this time of year when the sun is so far south in my latitude.

2.6k · December 9, 2013

..... To the OP you have a decision to make and I hope this helps you evaluate my advice.

I checked his profile, he has been inactive for over 9 years. Outside of that, this thread got a lot of dander up!!!

You got that right

Second time recently I was swept away in a resurrected thread.....still, it is a subject that comes up a lot. In a few years all units will probably have mapping and electronic compasses and it will become a dead topic.

2.7k · December 9, 2013

Nothing false about it. I stand by my statement exactly as written. Perhaps the individual can divine a vector using additional information beyond that provided by the GPS, but the GPS has no clue. Perhaps I put it badly?

The non-electronic compass arrow cannot point to the cache, or north, or anything else, if you are not moving. It requires motion (change in position based upon GPS coordinates) to gauge your own vector and from that makes an assumption about where things are (including the cache) based upon your direction of travel. What you are describing requires that you be carrying a real magnetic compass or have a pigeon's innate sense of where north is in order to orient yourself in the direction of the cache. In the middle of the woods, it's not always possible to have a very precise idea of where north is, especially in a dry climate like ours. No, I'd rather have the arrow pointing toward the cache than presume to trust my own idea of north, especially this time of year when the sun is so far south in my latitude.

Technically you can't have a vector without magnitude. When you are standing still what you have is an angle. A GPS without an electronic compass will incorrectly calculate the angle when it detects motion that did really happen. This false movement can be eliminated by changing the settings from course up to north up. What you are telling the GPS is to stop trying to determine what direction you are facing and to assume that you are always facing north.

As far as being required to carrying a real magnetic compass or to have a pigeon's innate sense of where north is in order to orient yourself in the direction of the cache is pure stupidity or just plain being stubborn. Unless you waited until you got to the cache coordinates before turning on your GPS or you memory is only 10 seconds long you've had more than enough time to determine which way north is simply by using your GPS. Electronic compass or no electronic compass it makes no difference. Simply observe your motion on the map for a few seconds (or looking at the compass screen) and it is obvious which direction you are going. When you stop moving you shouldn't forget the direction you were going, if you do you may need to see a doctor about that condition, and you should still be facing that very same direction.

There is no need to follow an arrow with a mapping GPS. Just look at the map. When you move if the cache icon is getting closer to the center dot then you also getting closer to the cache coordinates. If the cache icon moving further away then so are you. It's really basic stuff and no electronic compass is needed.

5.6k · December 9, 2013

Ref the first: I'm not unfamiliar with the proper use of the terminology. The magnitude of the vector is the distance to the cache. The unit does, within a few yards, know this value even if it is unable to compute an angle. It knows where you are, and it knows the coordinates for the cache, but without a magnetic compass, it does inherently not know the orientation of the unit with respect to north. When you are standing still without an electronic compass, you don't have an angle to begin with. If you do, it's due to the inclusion of factors outside of the GPS information. As I said in the beginning, and to which you took exception for reasons still unclear, "When you aren't moving at 2mph or so, the unit has no way of knowing which way you (and the unit) are oriented, and hence can't know the vector to the cache." (added emphasis this time) I don't refer of a vector from the your coordinate location, I refer to a vector from the unit's current orientation, which includes how many degrees it is currently rotated (or you are rotated, however you want to look at it) against the computed vector such that it can tell you a proper direction in which to move... In short, what the arrow is designed to display when an electronic compass exists and the firmware is being used to do the math, or without the electronic compass, you are moving fast enough that it can compute the angle of your current movement and use that to do the math instead.

"Simply observe your motion on the map for a few seconds..." There's the rub. This assumes you're in a terrain situation where you can sustain enough motion along a straight line to get an accurate sense of your heading with a north up map orientation, or that you have recently been in a situation that permits this. Beating your way through the bush or zig-zagging your way along the side of a mountain doesn't make that sort of activity easy, especially under heavy canopy where there's a lot of coordinate drift to begin with.

Again, without a mag compass, it's not that you can't just keep moving and watching the map, and through what amounts to a process of successive approximation (reminds me of golf) work your way toward the target. No one here would sensibly argue that. It's what we all had to do by default before we have had occasion and availability to a mag compass in a bad situation where we can't keep up a sustained 2mph+ pace to keep the arrow pointing where we'd like it.

The issue is that for whatever reason, some people (like me) have had a desire or imminent requirement to stop in their wanderings, shoot a new bearing to the cache from whatever awkward position the terrain has left them, and see if they can sort out a decent approach to where they're going. IF a person caches in terrain of that sort, that's when I'd argue that it's real doggone handy to have the pointer and distance right in front of your nose so that you can survey the problem without any additional guesswork, or having had to keep watching the map screen just prior to that -- perhaps in the middle of a rock scramble (not!).

As noted earlier, that's not the only useful purpose for the magnetic compass feature when caching (convenience when performing any sort of triangulation being the other), but for this purpose, the ultimate usefulness of the feature does increase for people that cache in some rather difficult terrain. As I say, there are a lot of folks who never cache in this sort of terrain, or are caching pretty exclusively in an urban/suburban or even rural environment where the street/road grid might provide a constant and reliable reference to "north" and just looking at the map gives you all you really need to know (using your example, above). If that's the vast majority of a cacher's experience, then while the convenience is still very much there, the ultimate value of the mag compass is diminished significantly since there are alternatives that work just fine. Once again, the level of utility of any feature on a GPS unit depends a lot upon how and where a person caches. I'm kind of sick of the blanket statements that are offered without any backup. At least you've presented your side clearly and with some thought, and I appreciate that.

December 9, 2013

..... To the OP you have a decision to make and I hope this helps you evaluate my advice.

I checked his profile, he has been inactive for over 9 years. Outside of that, this thread got a lot of dander up!!!

Perhaps nine years ago he got a life! :laughing:

1.4k · December 9, 2013

I wouldn't buy a GPS without the electronic compass. It's nice to be able to stop for a few seconds and look at the compass and your surroundings without having the compass stop working.

2.1k · December 10, 2013

I see two subjects in the topic's title:

Is The Compass And Altimeter Really Worth It?

A lot of discussion about the former above - but that concerning the latter, a relative paucity.

IM(Not So)HO, I would not suggest replacing an otherwise capable GPSr that doesn't have a barometric altimeter with another $300 +GPSr with such to obtain that functionality while a far cheaper alternative exists:

http://www.campmor.com/outdoor/gear/Product___89502

I purchased that model about a dozen years ago and never leave home without it!

But wait.....there's more:

Currently - 30.25 inHg, and rising!

2.7k · December 10, 2013

Ref the first: I'm not unfamiliar with the proper use of the terminology. The magnitude of the vector is the distance to the cache. The unit does, within a few yards, know this value even if it is unable to compute an angle. It knows where you are, and it knows the coordinates for the cache, but without a magnetic compass, it does inherently not know the orientation of the unit with respect to north. When you are standing still without an electronic compass, you don't have an angle to begin with.

Unless you change the settings to NORTH UP. Then you do because north is now locked to the top of the display.

... "Simply observe your motion on the map for a few seconds..." There's the rub. This assumes you're in a terrain situation where you can sustain enough motion along a straight line to get an accurate sense of your heading with a north up map orientation, or that you have recently been in a situation that permits this. Beating your way through the bush or zig-zagging your way along the side of a mountain doesn't make that sort of activity easy, especially under heavy canopy where there's a lot of coordinate drift to begin with.

I think you are making this harder than it has to be. Unless your beating your way through the bush blindfolded then getting your bearing isn't really all that difficult.

The issue is that for whatever reason, some people (like me) have had a desire or imminent requirement to stop in their wanderings, shoot a new bearing to the cache from whatever awkward position the terrain has left them, and see if they can sort out a decent approach to where they're going. IF a person caches in terrain of that sort, that's when I'd argue that it's real doggone handy to have the pointer and distance right in front of your nose so that you can survey the problem without any additional guesswork, or having had to keep watching the map screen just prior to that -- perhaps in the middle of a rock scramble (not!).

I agree that it is very handy. I have owned and currently own GPSs with a 3-axis compass. However it isn't a feature that I see as necessary and I if it greatly increased the price of the GPS I wouldn't consider it worth it.

...I'm kind of sick of the blanket statements that are offered without any backup.

I don't like blanketed statements either. Like "I wouldn't buy a GPS without the electronic compass." I agree that they are not very helpful.

At least you've presented your side clearly and with some thought, and I appreciate that.

Thanks for the compliment and I can say the same about you. I really enjoy conversation like this. Were even-tho we don't see eye to eye I've still learned something and the conversation has stayed civil.

December 10, 2013

I see two subjects in the topic's title:

Is The Compass And Altimeter Really Worth It?

A lot of discussion about the former above - but that concerning the latter, a relative paucity

I use my altimeter a fair bit {but not starting a discussion about it} as well as the compass, used to have an altimeter watch and still have my Thommen 6000 meter altimeter from years ago and I always have my Suunto Global compass with me, crampons and ice axes too, just too much fun!

Edited December 10, 2013 by Forkeye

5.6k · December 10, 2013

I guess we've been focusing on an assumption that the question is directed at geocaching. For that activity, an altimeter is not often very helpful -- the primary objective being to find a cache. If the logging of routes in an effort to find a cache is important to the cacher, then its utility increases. There again, it all depends on how and where a cacher does his caching . It's not much use in Hayes, Kansas .. you can get tired of seeing an altitude of 2010' 2010' 2010' 2010' 2010' all day (I gotta quit picking on those folks!) until the weather starts to roll in and foul up the calibration (guess it might be handy for predicting a low pressure front that's on the way, but heck -- out there, you can see the weather on its way), but as an example to the contrary, in Colorado west from the Front Range, plotting the results can be very entertaining. Counting driving, it's nothing to move from 5000 to 12000 feet in a day of caching.

In all, it's a much more useful tool for most folks for activities other than geocaching.

December 10, 2013

In all, it's a much more useful tool for most folks for activities other than geocaching.

Geocaching is not the main use of the etrex I own, but it is used for geocaching when on the ground.

I do a lot of flying and for me the metal in the aircraft skin annoys the etrex compass and the etrex barometer in the pressurised cabin reads the cabin pressure! So for me the etrex 20 eliminates those specific items that will read wrong for my particular use. Oh and there is no stopping in aircraft so an etrex compass is superfluous to aviation needs.

5.6k · December 10, 2013

Chuckle. I've read stories about people wondering why when they try to read their altitude in an aircraft when traveling that they don't get anything close to the right number. We know which posters have the barometric altimeter! The math is tough for Z axis GPS positioning -- what's your experience with the current production of non-barometric GPS units and accuracy of altitude as displayed vs. your own cockpit gear?

Interesting that the skin is causing so much grief for the compass. Even the more exotic aluminum alloys don't contain any nickel or iron. What's your take on that?

As for "no stopping" -- don't forget those who 'drive' helioflopters ... not that they'd need to stop for a position fix, of course... but like I say - somebody's use model will create an exception to darned near anything one could say as a blanket statement.

2.6k · December 10, 2013

I use my altimeter sometimes for earthcaches. I get a kick out of comparing it to the elevation signs when traveling through the mountains.....thousands of feet high and often they are accurate to the foot, pretty impressive.

6.4k · December 10, 2013

The altimeter is useful if recording the tracks and want to know accurate elevation changes for a trip. Without one, you get fairly inaccurate data. For people hiking and climbing mountains it can be useful information.

December 10, 2013

what's your experience with the current production of non-barometric GPS units and accuracy of altitude as displayed vs. your own cockpit gear?
Interesting that the skin is causing so much grief for the compass. Even the more exotic aluminum alloys don't contain any nickel or iron. What's your take on that?

Etrex 20 and even the Etrex H do a commendable job even without differentials acting. Aircraft skins are a composite of many non structural materials including metal tubes and electrical cabling that are mainly unshielded for weight savings. E-compassed handhelds don't stand much of a chance when the motor block is several inches away.

:rolleyes:

5.3k · December 11, 2013

Interesting that the skin is causing so much grief for the compass. Even the more exotic aluminum alloys don't contain any nickel or iron. What's your take on that?

Magnetic fields are not only caused by magnetic materials. Try dropping a magnet through a copper tube sometimes to see the Lenz's law in action!

Any current running through the aluminum skin will cause a magnetic field. Motion of the conducting surfaces of the place through the Earth's magnetic field will cause currents large enough to affect the compass.

-- Dave

December 11, 2013

Magnetic fields are not only caused by magnetic materials. Try dropping a magnet through a copper tube sometimes to see the Lenz's law in action!

Oh yes, very slow, how about a non magnetic aluminum pop can spinning in a 3 phase rotating magnetic field.

December 12, 2013

It takes about ~20 seconds for a decision to be made about hand-held equipment to be used on a flight deck!

Garmin Etrex 30 was immediately swapped out for an Etrex 20 after that initial 20 seconds.

For recreational geocaching I use one of these with my Etrex 20.

http://www.suunto.com/Products/Compasses/Suunto-M-9/

Suunto-M-9-3395.png?width=270

The accuracy at rest is just as good and there is no issues with buggy firmware!

Edited December 12, 2013 by PigSti

December 12, 2013

Never had any issues with my Etrex 30 or 62sc Compasses, but I still carry a Suunto with me, only because the army taught me how to use one decades ago, now I have an ACR ResQlink+ in case I crash and burn too, they can come and get me.

I cant see any aircraft using an Etrex 20 or 30. Garmin has aircraft specific gps units,if the aircraft didn't have one, and since the 30 can do every thing the 20 can do why would they swap it out, there are just a bunch of people that seem to hate the advanced Garmin models, and will do anything to bash them, perhaps because they bought the wrong one?

Edited December 12, 2013 by Forkeye

December 12, 2013

Never had any issues with my Etrex 30 or 62sc Compasses, but I still carry a Suunto with me, only because the army taught me how to use one decades ago, now I have an ACR ResQlink+ in case I crash and burn too, they can come and get me.

I cant see any aircraft using an Etrex 20 or 30. Garmin has aircraft specific gps units,if the aircraft didn't have one, and since the 30 can do every thing the 20 can do why would they swap it out, there are just a bunch of people that seem to hate the advanced Garmin models, and will do anything to bash them, perhaps because they bought the wrong one?

It took PigSti several posts to mention that his primary reason for avoiding an uncompensated "electro-magnetic" compass in a handheld gps device is that he is a pilot of a small airplane. That logic makes perfect sense to anyone who has experience with such an uncompensated compass in an automobile, even though the electronic compass "should" automatically disable itself above walking speeds.

December 12, 2013

The Etrex series was never intended to be used on a flight deck, or really in a vehicle, how could anyone drive or fly and look at a postage stamp size screen, and for sure the compass is not going to work in those applications either, though mine works fine in my submarine when I last used it.

December 12, 2013

The Etrex series was never intended to be used on a flight deck, or really in a vehicle, how could anyone drive or fly and look at a postage stamp size screen, and for sure the compass is not going to work in those applications either, though mine works fine in my submarine when I last used it.

Gee, I'm glad that I did not know that some gps devices were not to be used in automobiles. I took my first Magellan for a ride as soon as I got it in the mid '90s. After stopping in a roadside rest parking lot, I drove the car forward and back while comparing it to a cheap vacuum cup compass. Mag Compass worked fine out of the car; gps compass worked fine inside the car while moving.

The next day, I bought a compensated magnetic car compass for the first time in years to go with the gps. The new compass stuck on the windshield too, but it also had adjustment screws to compensate for the car's magnetic distractions.

December 12, 2013

A caching sense at gz is worth more than a pointer surely?

December 12, 2013

Oh for sure, once you know the general area, you know pretty much where one would hide things. Having accuracy to a meter or less would just take away all the fun of looking.

Edited December 12, 2013 by Forkeye

2.1k · December 13, 2013

Are the worth the $50 and does the compass help that much in geocaching?

Avoiding topic drift by referring to the original question, yes, if one's GPSr does not have Compass and Barometric Altimeter, one can buy this watch for $42.30 (S&H inc.):

http://dx.com/p/fr821a-sports-digital-altimeter-compass-barometer-stopwatch-wrist-watch-black-grey-247442

Then one can continue to use their original GPSr without having to replace it.

Disclaimer: There was considerable contention regarding the utility of the compass as applied to geocaching. I choose to not particpate in the contention and, consequently, will not address the "..help that much in geocaching.." question. <_<

December 13, 2013

I don't really find a need for an electronic compass for geocaching, or for hiking its just nice to have, all you really need is a good map most of the time and the smarts to know how to use it and keep track of things. I always have my Suunto with me, as my trusty backup, but that will cost you $60-$70 too.

Edited December 13, 2013 by Forkeye

5.6k · December 13, 2013

Avoiding topic drift by referring to the original question, yes, if one's GPSr does not have Compass and Barometric Altimeter, one can buy this watch for $42.30 (S&H inc.):

http://dx.com/p/fr82...ack-grey-247442

Then one can continue to use their original GPSr without having to replace it.

Pretty slick. All you need to do to get that watch to point in the direction of a cache is, er, oh, right! Point it at the cache! Now THAT'S real utility!

2.7k · December 13, 2013

Avoiding topic drift by referring to the original question, yes, if one's GPSr does not have Compass and Barometric Altimeter, one can buy this watch for $42.30 (S&H inc.):

http://dx.com/p/fr82...ack-grey-247442

Then one can continue to use their original GPSr without having to replace it.

Pretty slick. All you need to do to get that watch to point in the direction of a cache is, er, oh, right! Point it at the cache! Now THAT'S real utility!

Having a device that points in the direction of the cache despite your orientation is handy but far from necessary and can be confusing. These forums are full of post from people who are looking for a more accurate GPS or who think there is something wrong with their GPS because all of the caches they find are 5 feet or more off from where their GPS says it should be. People can easily become too dependent on the device to the point where need to go to the point where they have become mindless zombies blindly following an electronic arrow where ever it may point. My mantra to people new to geocaching has become "Stop looking at the dadgum GPS and use your eyes."

December 13, 2013

Totally agree Glenn, I just don't get the requirement for more accuracy. Just walk right up, bend down and pick up the cache, no more thinking, no more fun. Remember back in the 90s when SA was on, didn't have too much trouble then either. You actually had to look and think, check out a couple of places perhaps. The gps compass was a waste of time.

Edited December 13, 2013 by Forkeye

9.5k · December 13, 2013

Totally agree Glenn, I just don't get the requirement for more accuracy. Just walk right up, bend down and pick up the cache, no more thinking, no more fun. Remember back in the 90s when SA was on, didn't have too much trouble then either. You actually had to look and think, check out a couple of places perhaps. The gps compass was a waste of time.

This game started when SA was disabled. Not before. A 300 foot error looking for a can in the woods would have taken more than just look at "a couple of places".

Edited December 13, 2013 by TotemLake

8.3k · December 14, 2013

Totally agree Glenn, I just don't get the requirement for more accuracy. Just walk right up, bend down and pick up the cache, no more thinking, no more fun. Remember back in the 90s when SA was on, didn't have too much trouble then either. You actually had to look and think, check out a couple of places perhaps. The gps compass was a waste of time.

This game started when SA was disabled. Not before. A 300 foot error looking for a can in the woods would have taken more than just look at "a couple of places".

Yep. President Clinton ordered SA turned off midnight May 1, 2000. Dave Ulmer hid his stash May 3, 2000 and posted the coordinates on the internet news group sci.geo.satellite-nav.

From: Dave (news2yousNOneSPAM@hotmail.com.invalid)

Subject: GPS Stash Hunt... Stash #1 is there!

Newsgroups: sci.geo.satellite-nav

Date: 2000/05/03

Well, I did it, created the first stash hunt stash and here are

the coordinates:

N 45 17.460

W122 24.800

Lots of goodies for the finders. Look for a black plastic bucket

buried most of the way in the ground. Take some stuff, leave

some stuff! Record it all in the log book. Have Fun!

Stash contians: Delorme Topo USA software, videos, books, food,

money, and a slingshot!

So if you were finding things in the woods before May 2, 2000 it was a precursor to geocaching and probably called something else.

And even with today's units and satellites finding a can in the woods can be a bit of a challenge with the errors in your GPS and the hiders GPS. And if the hider was using an earlier smartphone you might have to check quite a few places.

Edited December 14, 2013 by jholly

5.6k · December 14, 2013

Having a device that points in the direction of the cache despite your orientation is handy but far from necessary

Will someone PLEASE SHOOT THIS STRAW MAN? I do not recall anyone -- ANYONE -- claiming that this feature is "necessary". Neither was that the question originally posed in this thread.

and can be confusing.

It won't be any more confusing for those users who don't have it and still somehow imagine that they should reach 0 feet and be standing on the cache. If that's what they think should happen, they'll quickly be disabused of that notion as they start looking for caches.

My mantra to people new to geocaching has become "Stop looking at the dadgum GPS and use your eyes."

That's sound advice once you've begun to approach GZ at some reasonable distance (depends upon terrain what's 'reasonable'). Useless advice when there's a serious forest/trees syndrome and/or you're still a long way away from your objective.

5.6k · December 14, 2013

Totally agree Glenn, I just don't get the requirement for more accuracy.

Can someone explain how we've wandered into a discussion of accuracy? No relevancy that I can see to the original question.

2.1k · December 14, 2013

Totally agree Glenn, I just don't get the requirement for more accuracy.
Can someone explain how we've wandered into a discussion of accuracy? No relevancy that I can see to the original question.

Certainly, it is human behavior no different than that of the physical world. In terms of a GPSr, it like standing stationary while recording your waypoint multiple times and seeing your location wander. In physics it is called random walk.

I'll be back later....I need to catch up on Judge Judy reruns now......

5.6k · December 14, 2013

More akin to what we often call 'cache creep', I'd say. Sooner or later, somebody needs to replace it nearer the original coordinates.

December 19, 2013

In short, NO

Garmin's firmware is just too buggy to warrant the extra expense!

If their units were reliable and worked flawlessly then I would say YES YES YES but alas you would be dreaming...

Don't waste your time and trying to figure out why they don't work properly, it's the firmware!

Stick with the simpler ones and buy a Suunto hand compass to go with it.

Saves you a lot of time and worry, trust me I know!

https://forums.garmin.com/showthread.php?30468-etrex-30-compass-issue
https://forums.garmin.com/showthread.php?25918-Lost-tracks-on-eTrex-30
https://forums.garmin.com/showthread.php?36205-Etrex-30-huge-problem-with-the-compass-(FW-3-00)
https://forums.garmin.com/showthread.php?33266-Garmin-Etrex-30-Total-Ascent-Wrong-after-upgrading-to-firmware-2-80

5.6k · December 19, 2013

In short, NO

Garmin's firmware is just too buggy to warrant the extra expense!

If their units were reliable and worked flawlessly then I would say YES YES YES but alas you would be dreaming...

Don't waste your time and trying to figure out why they don't work properly, it's the firmware!

I suspect all of those comments have been colored by the poor experience of Montana/Monterra units. The Oregon 450 with its 3-axis is very stable apart from one bug which is rare (sometimes fails to load new gpx on power up), and is solved with a reboot. Apart from that one bug, which I've only seen twice since owning my 450 for a couple of years now, I have zero ongoing firmware issues in the field. Certainly no 'buggy firmware'. No, it didn't start out that way, but it's that way now, and it's now we're talking about!

Even better - since it's been around a while, not only is the firmware more mature, you can get a 450 for a lot less than other models. Black Friday specials of $169 were hard to beat for a unit with its capabilities.

Edited December 19, 2013 by ecanderson

December 19, 2013

I suspect all of those comments have been colored by the poor experience of Montana/Monterra units.

I didn't know the Etrex 30 was also called the Montana/Monterra units!

December 19, 2013

Believe what you want. Those compass horror stories are probably as old as Vincent Price. Dont have any issues with either my 30 or 62sc compass. But I can understand the compass haters of the world must have the last word.

December 19, 2013

Believe what you want. Those compass horror stories are probably as old as Vincent Price. Dont have any issues with either my 30 or 62sc compass. But I can understand the compass haters of the world must have the last word.

Whatever..

2.1k · December 19, 2013

I'm done with those useless handheld GPSrs. For $102 US, I'm going with this:

http://dx.com/p/freelander-n10-multifunction-gps-sports-rubber-band-digital-waterproof-wrist-watch-yellow-black-190536?utm_source=dx&utm_medium=edm&utm_campaign=20131209watches

Then, with my barometric altimeter - compass wristwatch, I'll have it all and my hands can be used for my smartphone and portable CB radio, 10-4, good buddy?

http://dx.com/p/fr821a-sports-digital-altimeter-compass-barometer-stopwatch-wrist-watch-black-grey-247442

5.6k · December 19, 2013

I suspect all of those comments have been colored by the poor experience of Montana/Monterra units.

I didn't know the Etrex 30 was also called the Montana/Monterra units!

Sorry to hear none of their more recent models are doing well. As noted, there's no reason to avoid the Oregon x50 series on the basis of code issues.

1k · December 19, 2013

https://forums.garmin.com/showthread.php?30468-etrex-30-compass-issue
https://forums.garmin.com/showthread.php?25918-Lost-tracks-on-eTrex-30
https://forums.garmin.com/showthread.php?36205-Etrex-30-huge-problem-with-the-compass-(FW-3-00)
https://forums.garmin.com/showthread.php?33266-Garmin-Etrex-30-Total-Ascent-Wrong-after-upgrading-to-firmware-2-80

Those are some pretty old message threads. I believe my eTrex 30 is up to firmware v3.40 now. The compass has been fixed for a really long time. More than a year, I think.

Yeah, the compass was pretty sad at first. I had to calibrate it about every 2 hours while hiking. And after every battery change. They got it fixed with a few months of when I bought it, though. It works quite well now, and I don't think I'd buy a GPS without one.

2.6k · December 20, 2013

https://forums.garmin.com/showthread.php?30468-etrex-30-compass-issue
https://forums.garmin.com/showthread.php?25918-Lost-tracks-on-eTrex-30
https://forums.garmin.com/showthread.php?36205-Etrex-30-huge-problem-with-the-compass-(FW-3-00)
https://forums.garmin.com/showthread.php?33266-Garmin-Etrex-30-Total-Ascent-Wrong-after-upgrading-to-firmware-2-80
Those are some pretty old message threads. I believe my eTrex 30 is up to firmware v3.40 now. The compass has been fixed for a really long time. More than a year, I think.

Yeah, the compass was pretty sad at first. I had to calibrate it about every 2 hours while hiking. And after every battery change. They got it fixed with a few months of when I bought it, though. It works quite well now, and I don't think I'd buy a GPS without one.

Quite right. The 30 was the last of the newer Garmins to get the compass squared away.

December 21, 2013

The Etrex still isn't where it needs to be and I don't know if there is any help for the Etrex30 compass.

The main problem is Garmin introduces new units to the market long before they are ready.....it takes a couple of years with their customers serving as field testers for Garmin to get them right.....before they are 100% Garmin is introducing a buggy new unit.

Well that's good then!

My older 62 hasn't missed a beat yet my previous 2013 Etrex30 v3.4 had to go back twice for service. On the 3rd time I got it swapped out for an Etrex 20.

I'm quite happy with the 20 as a backup with it's internal maps but it still goes into the backpack while the Etrex H, Suunto compass and a Hema map are on hand. Call me old fashioned but for me it's still the process that counts..

Edited December 21, 2013 by PigSti

December 21, 2013

Believe what you want. Those compass horror stories are probably as old as Vincent Price. Dont have any issues with either my 30 or 62sc compass. But I can understand the compass haters of the world must have the last word.

ORLY!

I totally agree ,it is shamefull of Garmin to release dud products and take what seems to be forever to fix them, people need to stop buying them as fast as Garmin pushes them out the door!

Giggle!

Is The Compass And Altimeter Really Worth It?

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