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Let's Hear It For Duracell!


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Just found a new type of rechargable battery in my local general store. Bought the charger + 2x battery combo for a test. After only 3 hours of charging, they gave me nearly 18 hours of power on my gps unit!

I can't find any evidence of their capacity on the site.

 

If they're over 2100mAh, I'd consider them when my current set stop recharging.

 

Cheers,

 

Stu

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I haven't actually timed how long they last but 2 AAs are supposed to last around 30hrs in my Garmin 60c. My Rayovac IC3 charger powers up 4 AAs (that''s two sets for my 60c) in under 15 minutes! They're supposed to be good for 1,000 charges, granted with some loss of capacity.

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I recently picked up some 2300 Lenmar AA's with a one hour AC or DC charger for $39 at Fry's. Thats for four batteries, the charger and both cords. So far I love them.

Thats a smokin deal...I am gonna have to go finally get some! Can't turn down an offer like that...and I hear they are an excellent brand as well...

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I use the rechargable NiMH too, they are great and don't have the memory problem old NiCads do. When weight is a consideration (hiking) I use Litium Ion batteries as they are many times lighter than other types of batteries. Unfortunately I have not seen rechargable Litium Ion batteries yet in AA or AAA.

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But then again, I host their site and run it, so i know where everything is :-)
Off topic, but that page takes forever to load. The others aren't much better. If I had broadband, it wouldn't matter, but with my dialup, I won't be back there.

 

On topic, those things really don't like the cold, do they? Performance really drops off as the temperature falls.

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It's cheaper by the dozen here. For $27 plus shipping, you can get 12 AA 2250 mAh and a charger adaptable for at home or in the car.

 

I've been using their brand for almost a year now with no complaints.

Wow, they appear to have good deals. I bought Panasonic Nickel-Metal Hydrides from Costco for $20.00; it includes 6 AA, 2 AAA, and a fast charger. The AA's are 2100 mAh; the AAA's, I think are 750 mAh.

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I use the Sanyo's that are 2nd on this list:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/ACCS/BATTS/BATTS.HTM

 

Got them for a great price @ Costco. (2100 AAs and 800 AAAs)

 

My Canon A70 gets great run time off the AAs. And both my Geko 201 and Kameleon get good run time off the AAAs. Unfortunately Costco has recently stopped carrying the Sanyo sets locally so I'm hunting for a few more sets of AAAs for these devices.

 

Thorin

Edited by thorin
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I use the rechargable NiMH too, they are great and don't have the memory problem old NiCads do.  When weight is a consideration (hiking) I use Litium Ion batteries as they are many times lighter than other types of batteries.  Unfortunately I have not seen rechargable Litium Ion batteries yet in AA or AAA.

And you probably won't ever see them in those sizes, for two reasons: 1) Individual lithium ion cells produce about three volts of potential vs. 1.2 - 1.5 for the more usual types. 2) They require a very different type of charger. If LIs were made in standard sizes, it would be way too easy for somebody to stick them in a regular charger and possibly cause great injury to themselves or others.

Edited by Balboagirl
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It's cheaper by the dozen here. For $27 plus shipping, you can get 12 AA 2250 mAh and a charger adaptable for at home or in the car.

 

I've been using their brand for almost a year now with no complaints.

Wow, they appear to have good deals. I bought Panasonic Nickel-Metal Hydrides from Costco for $20.00; it includes 6 AA, 2 AAA, and a fast charger. The AA's are 2100 mAh; the AAA's, I think are 750 mAh.

As long as they keep offering deals like that, I won't buy from anyplace else. In fact, I'm finding I need more batteries for my remotes and wireless stuff so I'm looking at buying that battery/charger kit again. You might want to note, the price doesn't change, but the batteries get better. Last year at that price, they were offering the 2000 mAh batteries.

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2) They require a very different type of charger. If LIs were made in standard sizes, it would be way too easy for somebody to stick them in a regular charger and possibly cause great injury to themselves or others.

Well that would assume a lack of education. The same problem was encountered with alkalines back when rechargeables first came out. More parallels in different technology advances can be made as well, but that didn't stop the development of those advances. I think we'll see something similar or better developed for the same usage.

 

And you probably won't ever see them in those sizes, for two reasons:  1) Individual lithium ion cells produce about three volts of potential vs. 1.2 - 1.5 for the more usual types.

 

Built-in resistance can be added. These batteries were originally developed for the more power hungry devices because that's where the big money is right now. I would advise against discounting the possibility of them being developed for lower power usage. That will eventually come as the technology becomes cheaper to develop and manufacture.

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I agree with Balboagirl. These are 2 major differences/problems that will prevent standard AA cels in Lithium ion rechargeable.

Regarding NiMH, a person who owns a store that sells batteries, power supplies, chargers told me that some of the cells marked 2300 and 2400 MAh are testing lower. And that this chemistry/type of cell may be at its peak capacity (about 2200)--and that the higher rated cells do not have as long a life (number of recharge cycles.)

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Lithium ion (LiON) cells typically have a fully charged voltage of 4.2 volts and a nominal voltage of 3.6 volts. If somebody were to make a LiON AA replacement, they would have to include a voltage regulator in the pack (to reduce the voltage to 1.2-1.5), along with all of the normal protection circuitry required *inside* the pack (because LiON batteries can violently explode if shorted or overcharged).

 

The cost for a single LiON AA battery would be outrageous, not to mention that the space required for the regulator and protection circuit would reduce the volume available for storing energy, possibly to the point where it would be no better than an alkaline. Maybe you make a 2-cell or 4-cell AA replacement pack, to amortize the cost of the regulator over two or four cells instead of one. But then you have difficult pack insertion issues due to the springs on both sides of the battery holder.

 

IMHO, if it made any economic and marketing sense to do this, it would have already been done. For all I know, it might have already been tried and was a marketplace failure.

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Lithium ion (LiON) cells typically have a fully charged voltage of 4.2 volts and a nominal voltage of 3.6 volts. If somebody were to make a LiON AA replacement, they would have to include a voltage regulator in the pack (to reduce the voltage to 1.2-1.5), along with all of the normal protection circuitry required *inside* the pack (because LiON batteries can violently explode if shorted or overcharged).

 

The cost for a single LiON AA battery would be outrageous, not to mention that the space required for the regulator and protection circuit would reduce the volume available for storing energy, possibly to the point where it would be no better than an alkaline. Maybe you make a 2-cell or 4-cell AA replacement pack, to amortize the cost of the regulator over two or four cells instead of one. But then you have difficult pack insertion issues due to the springs on both sides of the battery holder.

 

IMHO, if it made any economic and marketing sense to do this, it would have already been done. For all I know, it might have already been tried and was a marketplace failure.

Everything you point out is true... today. But it is also true that we have not yet seen the last of miniaturization. Although current studies have pointed out there is a limit that is close to being approached, it hasn't taken into account any new technology advances that can push that out. My post merely pointed out you can't discount that future advancement. I remember a day not too long ago when it was thought you couldn't get smaller than a 6 lb. laptop because the powercell required to run it had to be a specific size to provide ample power for a given time. Getting back to rechargeables, remember when cordless phones first came out? The powercells were packaged much the same way you described mainly to get past the cost concerns and the concerns of using the wrong type batteries to recharge. Same concerns, different technology. We have not yet seen the last of the advancements that will improve the technology and decrease the costs.

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I took the advice given in this thread to look at the deals at batteryspace.com, and I just got my fabu new battery charger & 12 AA NiMH 2250 mAh batteries. I found a coupon online even and got a splendid deal. Thanks!

 

Question for the smart battery geek people: Is it best to charge the batteries and then store them until needed, or should I charge as I go? Maybe there's no difference, but I was curious.

 

One funny thing. The charger arrived with one set of instructions.. in Danish. How'd they know I'm a native Danish speaker?! :-) If anyone needs their instructions translated, lemme know ..

 

../Mosaica

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Yes, I would like to know the same, do you leave them in the charger until you need them or not?

 

I have done both and find that charged batteries setting around for a week show up as 1/2 battery meter on my Vista. Fresh out of the charger gives a full battery meter. However, I don't notice the batteries that have been setting around last any less though. (I haven't timed it either and also understand GPS'r burn batteries at different rates depending on Electronic compass, WAAS, and loosing Sat links)

 

I have an Engergizer charger and once the batteries are charged they stay room temp. I have another brand that the charger and batteries are always warm. Any comments on this?

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Charged rechargable batteries will stay charged for a longer period of time if kept in the freezer/fridge. Just be sure to bring them to room temperature prior to utilizing. Depending on the charger, leaving them in the charger is not recommended by the manufacturer.

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Charged rechargable batteries will stay charged for a longer period of time if kept in the freezer/fridge. Just be sure to bring them to room temperature prior to utilizing. Depending on the charger, leaving them in the charger is not recommended by the manufacturer.

Ok maybe I'm just missing something but to me that doesn't make any sense. Why do batteries discharge faster when they're cold then? (ie: Car batteries in the great Canadian winter :back: )

 

Thorin

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From what I've read alot of manufacturer's mention that batteries can become warm/hot to touch during charging. Especially with "quick" chargers.

 

Now if you mean hot as in fire hazzard then yes I'd say you should be concerned. Does the charger in question have an auto shutoff?

 

Thorin

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I took the advice given in this thread to look at the deals at batteryspace.com, and I just got my fabu new battery charger & 12 AA NiMH 2250 mAh batteries.  I found a coupon online even and got a splendid deal.  Thanks!

 

Question for the smart battery geek people: Is it best to charge the batteries and then store them until needed, or should I charge as I go?  Maybe there's no difference, but I was curious.

 

One funny thing.  The charger arrived with one set of instructions.. in Danish.  How'd they know I'm a native Danish speaker?!  :-)  If anyone needs their instructions translated, lemme know ..

 

../Mosaica

Well the charger you have is a smart charger and will stop charging when the batteries reach full capacity and then trickle charge as needed. I have noticed it runs warm when charging, but when the batteries have reached full capacity, is room temperature cool to the touch.

 

I tend to leave the last pair in that I charged in the charger until needed. As for the other batteries, I keep them stored in the car until needed or until I feel they've been sitting too long, then I'll top them off. I figure about 2 months of non-usage is as far as I store them before I'll do that.

 

The batteries do feel what I would consider to be unusually warm to the touch, but I have taken that is the case with fast chargers. As an aside, you typically don't want to use the batteries when they are this warm as they will discharge too fast - same with when they are cold. You want them to be cool to the touch in ambient temperature. Depending on the environment, this can't be helped but I haven't seen any degradation of the batteries since I bought mine over a year ago.

Edited by TotemLake
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Has anyone noticed any performance differences when using NiMH batteries becasue of the lower (1.2V) voltage? I love the convenience of the 15-minute rechargeables and the life in powering my GPSr (although the sefl-discharge has to be kept in mind in storage).

 

But I have the impression that my Meridian Gold takes much longer to initially acquire satellites when turned on when using NiMH as opposed to standard alkaline (1.5V) batteries - after that it its fine. Practiacally, it is just an inconvenience. Is that must my imagination, or does anyone else have some similar experience/facts/

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I have the same symptoms regardless of the battery type.

 

I just take it as current conditions and location as well as the ephemeral data being out of synch with the current constellation causing the issue. I've seen my MeriPlat pickup a great signal within seconds of it being turned on with my NiMH's and othertimes takes several minutes.

Edited by TotemLake
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Charged rechargable batteries will stay charged for a longer period of time if kept in the freezer/fridge. Just be sure to bring them to room temperature prior to utilizing. Depending on the charger, leaving them in the charger is not recommended by the manufacturer.

Ok maybe I'm just missing something but to me that doesn't make any sense. Why do batteries discharge faster when they're cold then? (ie: Car batteries in the great Canadian winter :back: )

 

Thorin

I am not an expert so someone could probably explain this better:

Your car battery is a Sealed Lead Acid battery, SLA. One property of SLA batteries is their perfomance is degraded when cold (not so much they "loose charge" as they come back to life when they warm up).

 

For other types of rechargables, NiMH, NiCad, they work by a chemical process going on inside the battery. This process is active to some extent even when the battery is not being used. Putting them in the freezer slows down this chemical reaction.

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Your car battery is a Sealed Lead Acid battery, SLA.

Well, not completely sealed, as one of the byproducts of the reaction is Hydrogen gas, which means that the battery must at least be vented. Whoever came up with the idea of a battery that you can't service needs to be shot. Of course, that's more money for the battery manufacturers.

 

One other reason that lead/acid (Pb H2SO4) batteries can't be frozen is that the acid is diluted with water. When water freezes, it expands, usually cracking the case of the battery.

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So answer me this! If the Garmin 60CS will operate on two standard AA's at 1.5 volts each for a total of 3 VDC, rechargables at 1.2 VDC each for a total of 2.4 VDC, a car power cord at 12 VDC, and a external power source of 36 VDC, then why would it not be able to handle Lit Ion at 5 VDC each for a total of 10 VDC? There is a range in which many unit will work, GPSrs will work until the batteries are dead, so that is way below the starting voltage, and apparently they will work with way more voltage the the typical AA will deliver.

 

By the way NIMH cells will get hot (at least 120 degrees when charged with a fast charge unit) and will remain cool when on the maintenace charge. NIMH will discharge at a slower rate if charged a a slower rate, and discharge faster if charged at a fast rate. Store NIMH cells with a surface charge, not fully charged, not fully discharged. Cycle (charge then discharge) NIMH cells at least once a month to keep them potent and increase the life of the cell. Never dead short the cells when fully discharged as some may suggest (this was a hold over from the NICD cells that liked the dead short thing for storage)when storing the cells. NIMH will not develope a memory like the NICD cells did but it is still benificial to discharge them all the way before recharging them, helps them on capacity.

 

I run battery packs for RC cars that run in the $100 range of six sub c size cells, so you might say that I have had an expensive education on rechargables and their habits and treatment.

 

Thumper :lol::lol::lol:

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Thumper, do you recommend putting charged NiMH in the freezer/fridge? I have more batteries than I can keep in the charger and in use at the same time.

 

I have 1 slow charger I leave loaded and 1 fast charger. Do you recommend leaving batteries in a fast charger or taking them out once charged?

 

I don't have a 60cs but just a guess here. Often electronic devices will operate between 12-36 volts. With batteries they are rated at a certain voltage and amp draw. So if the 5V Lit Ion doesn’t work it may because their current rating doesn't match the demand of your GPSr. Same way you can't use AAA in place of D cells. They are both 1.5 V. (Besides the fact they won't fit.)

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All batteries are based on chemical reactions. When the chemicals are cold, the reactions slow down. This means that a battery cannot deliver as much power when cold as it can when warm. The effect of this is that batteries appear to lose most of their power when cold, only to magically regain it when warmed up.

The other side of the coin is that the batteries slowly self-discharge because of impurities in the chemicals and other things. Cold temperatures slow down the self discharge as well. So keeping the batteries cold will improve the shelf life, but you still have to warm them up to get the power back out of the battery when you need it.

 

I use nothing but rechargables in my GPS and in my digital camera. I have two sets of batteries for each. One set stays in the unit, the other in the carrying pouch. When the batteries in the unit are drained, I swap sets. When I get home, the drained set goes into the charger immediately, and then becomes the spare set in the pouch as soon as they're charged. I have discovered that when caching in below zero F, it's helpful to keep the spare batteries in an inside pocket, and, if possible, keep the GPS unit in an inside pocket too, The catch is to find an inside pocket that still lets the GPS get enough signal to stay locked.

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All batteries are based on chemical reactions. When the chemicals are cold, the reactions slow down. This means that a battery cannot deliver as much power when cold as it can when warm. The effect of this is that batteries appear to lose most of their power when cold, only to magically regain it when warmed up.

The other side of the coin is that the batteries slowly self-discharge because of impurities in the chemicals and other things. Cold temperatures slow down the self discharge as well. So keeping the batteries cold will improve the shelf life, but you still have to warm them up to get the power back out of the battery when you need it.

Time for your friendly neighborhood battery company employee to step in again to clear up a few issues. Keep in mind, I do work for one of the battery companies. It's the one with the pink rabbit who loves to play his drum in his flip-flops.

 

To clarify:

1. Not all batteries suffer cold weather performance. Lithium batteries do not use a water based electrolyte like alkaline cells. If it gets cold enough to freeze the electrolyte in a lithium cell, you've got bigger problems than a non-functioning GPSr. The lack of a pulse and respiration might be slightly inconvenient.

 

2. Batteries do suffer a small amount of discharge due to impurites in the raw materials. However, this rate of decline in batteries is extremely small and is practically impossible for the average consumer to detect in their devices. I can't speak for some of the off-brand Chinese imports but if it comes from one of the major US companies, this won't be a problem that you'll see. We've got rooms full of very expensive and sophisticated equipment to look for this type of discharge. If you do think you have a battery that died prematurely, contact the manufacturer. We all put our contact info on our packages. We all want back those rare cells that were DOA for tear-down analysis. It helps us improve our processes. Honestly, if you use the batteries within 5-10 years, any loss of performance from impurities, if it happened, would be in the low single digit percentages.

 

3. Don't bother storing your batteries in the fridge. We don't. We store them in warehouses and ship them in standard trailers. None of these are climate controlled. The same goes for the distribution centers for the retailers. Putting the batteries in the fridge to prolong the shelf life may have been marginally true at one time but it is not needed for modern cell designs. Storing them in the fridge only takes away space for important stuff, like beer.

 

Speaking of which, now I'm thirsty.

 

EDIT: typo

Edited by Runaround
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Geocyclist, I echo what runaround says, and I also do not store in a cold climate, just room temp. After the cells have been charged in a fast charger I would remove them, also if charged in a slow charger after the given charge time I would remove them. Just seems like a waist of time and electricty to try to put five pounds in a two pound sack, so to speak.

 

Thumper :lol::lol::lol:

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I took the advice given in this thread to look at the deals at batteryspace.com, and I just got my fabu new battery charger & 12 AA NiMH 2250 mAh batteries.  I found a coupon online even and got a splendid deal.  Thanks!

 

Question for the smart battery geek people: Is it best to charge the batteries and then store them until needed, or should I charge as I go?  Maybe there's no difference, but I was curious.

 

One funny thing.  The charger arrived with one set of instructions.. in Danish.  How'd they know I'm a native Danish speaker?!  :-)  If anyone needs their instructions translated, lemme know ..

 

../Mosaica

Well the charger you have is a smart charger and will stop charging when the batteries reach full capacity and then trickle charge as needed. I have noticed it runs warm when charging, but when the batteries have reached full capacity, is room temperature cool to the touch.

 

I tend to leave the last pair in that I charged in the charger until needed. As for the other batteries, I keep them stored in the car until needed or until I feel they've been sitting too long, then I'll top them off. I figure about 2 months of non-usage is as far as I store them before I'll do that.

 

The batteries do feel what I would consider to be unusually warm to the touch, but I have taken that is the case with fast chargers. As an aside, you typically don't want to use the batteries when they are this warm as they will discharge too fast - same with when they are cold. You want them to be cool to the touch in ambient temperature. Depending on the environment, this can't be helped but I haven't seen any degradation of the batteries since I bought mine over a year ago.

All batteries exhibit self-discharge, which is most noticeable with nickel-based batteries. Generally, a nickel-based battery discharges 10% to 15% of its capacity in the first 24 hours after charge, after which the discharge rate is another 10% to 15% per month. The Li-ion self-discharge is about 5% in the first 24 hours, and 1% to 2% thereafter.

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Unfortunately, there are no AA replacement Li-Ion batteries on the market that I am aware of. The biggest problem is one of voltage. Typical alkaline and rechargable cells operate at 1.2 to 1.5 volts. Lithium primary cells run around 1.5 volts. A Li-Ion cell in the same size operates at about 3.6 to 3.7 volts and cuts out at about 2.5 volts. It's a matter of the chemistry.

 

There is also a concern about using the right type of charger. If you were to drop a Li-Ion battery into your Ni-Cad or NiMH charger, the results would be, well, impressively explosive. It certainly doesn't do a lot for customer satisfaction and repeat business when you burn someone's house down.

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