+Marky Posted May 6, 2004 Share Posted May 6, 2004 There is a very large contingent of FTFders in our area, and Joani and I been thinking that people who go for FTFs should be the ones to give back to the community by hiding caches for every FTF they get. We are pretty much on track with our FTF/hide ratio. What do other people think about this? Joani and I started talking about this because we noticed a handful of cachers in our area who are very active (500 to 1000 finds) have yet to hide a cache. We came up with the idea that since there is only one FTF per cache, the person who gets it kind of owes it the community to put another FTF opportunity out there. Comments/thoughts? Am I way off base here? --Marky Quote Link to comment
+Gazza&Girls Posted May 6, 2004 Share Posted May 6, 2004 Some are Finders. Some are Hiders. Some do a little of both. I'd rather see a few good hides than a hundred of half hearted efforts, no matter what the credentials of the Hider. Quote Link to comment
+woof n lulu Posted May 6, 2004 Share Posted May 6, 2004 (edited) You aren't off base...it's a good theory, but I can't see it happening.. I have never had a first to find, like you said there are a few that seem to hunt only these, and generally they don't give back to community enjoyment. Just a part of life to deal with Edited May 6, 2004 by woof n lulu Quote Link to comment
+Marky Posted May 6, 2004 Author Share Posted May 6, 2004 Some are Finders. Some are Hiders. Some do a little of both. I'd rather see a few good hides than a hundred of half hearted efforts, no matter what the credentials of the Hider. I guess my reasoning behind this thought is that a normal finder takes nothing away from the community by finding the cache, but since there is only one FTF to be had per cache, you are taking this opportunity away if you are actively going after these. It's these people I'm talking about. It really has nothing to do with good hides or half hearted efforts. --Marky Quote Link to comment
Tahosa and Sons Posted May 6, 2004 Share Posted May 6, 2004 We came up with the idea that since there is only one FTF per cache, the person who gets it kind of owes it the community to put another FTF opportunity out there. Comments/thoughts? Am I way off base here? --Marky I just can't seem to fathom the idea that a FTF owes the community. As previously stated some are finders and some are hiders. Well I'm more into hiding them than looking for them. And when someone is skilled enough to find one of my mountain caches I don't believe that they owe the community a cache. I planted the cache for someone elses enjoyment. And let them enjoy the find without the obligation to place another one just because they were the early bird. If this idea followed to the letter I do believe we would have a Cache Density problem of lame caches, because not all finders are good placers, and they would rather hunt than to go thru all the work just to place a quality cache. It usually takes about one hike to find them while it can take several hikes and write ups just to get them planted just right. So maybe planters should get two stars for a quality cache. Quote Link to comment
+JMBella Posted May 6, 2004 Share Posted May 6, 2004 Certainly a FTFer doesn't actually owe the community anything. However it sure is a nice gesture. I've never really thought about it but as it turns out I have around the same amout of FTF as I do hides. I feel pretty good about that. Now i'm off to grab and FTF and subsiquently hide a cache. Quote Link to comment
MOCKBA Posted May 6, 2004 Share Posted May 6, 2004 a normal finder takes nothing away from the community by finding the cache, but since there is only one FTF to be had per cache, you are taking this opportunity away if you are actively going after these. One may also take away from the community by hiding lousy caches ... IMO people really should be very willing and very able to hide. Nudging them is a bad idea. OTOH I actively try to avoid FTFs on some easier local caches, 'cause in these case, my FTF satisfaction will be counterbalanced by the feeling that I've just deprived some of the less crazy FTF hunters from their prizes. If I can't give my dog / my feet / my brain a nice workout with it, is it worth pissing somebody off? Quote Link to comment
Leoness Posted May 6, 2004 Share Posted May 6, 2004 er... some people aren't necessarily in a position to hide caches. Does that mean they're not entitled to FTF? Quote Link to comment
+golem3 Posted May 6, 2004 Share Posted May 6, 2004 Marky, Maybe for one of your caches, you could leave another ammo can (or a gift certificate to a nearby army/navy surplus store) nearby as the FTF prize with a little note. If they don't want to go for it, they don't have to, but they have the opportunity. I can see the other side though about people putting out lame caches if forced to do so, but maybe your idea will inspire an even better cache than your own. I am still looking for a good place for my first cache, but maybe I'll try this idea myself.. Quote Link to comment
+workerofwood Posted May 6, 2004 Share Posted May 6, 2004 I think any personal goals that help the caching community are good. With this in mind I commend those that try to keep a ratio like 1 hide for every 10 finds, or that try to hide more larger caches than micros. As to hiding a cache for every FTF, that seems a good personal goal too (hmmm... means I'm due for a few more caches!). I would view something like this as a challenge, not a rule, much like many other aspects of the game... and that keeps it interesting. I would welcome any others that tried to do this, but not look down on someone who chose not to. Quote Link to comment
+Pobre Rico Posted May 6, 2004 Share Posted May 6, 2004 I went out one morning with a list of the 5 closest caches to where I was. It just happened to be that I was FTF on 2 of them. I would have been FTF on a third one if it weren't for the fact that a teen-aged couple had decided to spend the night sharing a sleeping bag in the park within 20 feet of the cache. I don't know if I should have to hide 3 caches because of accidentally being the first person to find 3 caches before anyone else. I've set a goal for myself of hiding 1 cache for every 15 I find. So far I've hidden 6 and found 73. Looks like I'm ahead of schedule. I usually leave a special item in the caches I place for the first finder. Maybe you could leave a special item for the FTF and specify on the cache page that it is for the first finder who intends to hide a new cache. Just a thought... Quote Link to comment
Toron Posted May 6, 2004 Share Posted May 6, 2004 Doesn't sound like this topic was proposed as a RULE as much as it was proposed as an unwritten goal for cachers to keep in mind. This sport is full of such concepts (ie if possible, hide your cache on a rocky/hard surface that will minimize impact from cacher traffic). I think it is a fine concept in so far as it supports the spirit of developing the caching environment in an area. It is stated perfectly as it is, a goal. I could certainly see a rule like this resulting in lame caches, but thankfully it wasn't proposed as such. If my FTF's exceed my hides, I will probably use this topic as an inspiration to go out and place a good find to stay even. (FTF's so far=0, I should change my forum name to lazycacher ) Quote Link to comment
+shunra Posted May 6, 2004 Share Posted May 6, 2004 There is a very large contingent of FTFders in our area, and Joani and I been thinking that people who go for FTFs should be the ones to give back to the community by hiding caches for every FTF they get. We are pretty much on track with our FTF/hide ratio. What do other people think about this? Joani and I started talking about this because we noticed a handful of cachers in our area who are very active (500 to 1000 finds) have yet to hide a cache. We came up with the idea that since there is only one FTF per cache, the person who gets it kind of owes it the community to put another FTF opportunity out there. Comments/thoughts? Am I way off base here? --Marky All this would achieve would be encouraging an explosion of new hides, not necessarily of quality. Think of it: every cache would require a new one to be placed, and that one too, and that one too, etc. I think even as a suggestion this should be DIScouraged. Another thought: if that ever became modus operandi, many people would give up on FRFs, and try to get STFs. Now that's a whole nother game: All the cachers in the area rush to the cache site early enough to assume that they *might* be early enough for an FTF, but instead of getting it, they hide in the area and stick it out. Obviously, he would be seen by the people already lurking around the cache... At some point, someone gives up and logs a find. At that point, everyone jumps out of the bushes and races to be second... Nah. Give me honest FTFs, and don't push me to hide more than the quality caches I want to hide anyway. Quote Link to comment
+The Leprechauns Posted May 6, 2004 Share Posted May 6, 2004 There's nothing wrong with encouraging folks to "give something back" to the community, through discussions like this one. I'm not big on new rules, though. Besides Marky's idea of hiding a cache if you FTF a cache, there are lots of ways to give something back: 1. CITO a cache area at a geocache nearby your home. When it's all cleaned up, keep it that way. It doesn't even need to be your cache, just a place that is convenient for you to visit frequently. 2. Quit being an FTF whore. After I racked up about 25 FTF's in my first year of geocaching, I've pretty much stepped aside from the FTF race. It is fun to watch enthusiastic newcomers do the same race. Having found most of the caches in my area, it's no longer worth the time and gas money to dash 30 miles just to find one new cache. I now wait until 5 or so new ones have popped up in an area, then I clean them all out at once. 3. Encourage others to hide good caches. Once I left a $20 bill in a *very* challenging geocache placed by CCCooperAgency, which takes a 10 mile or 12 mile hike depending on the route chosen. I stipulated that the person who took the money had to use it to hide another new cache that was a similar challenge. We now have a great new cache along the Appalachian Trail because of this gift. Another way is to leave a new cache container inside or next to your own new cache, as a FTF prize. 4. Take a weekend break from racking up your find count and do a maintenance run. Fix up all your own caches that you haven't visited recently. Make note of all OTHER caches in your area that need a new pen, logbook, container, etc., and add a few of these to your list, especially if you haven't found them yet. 5. Retrieve any hamsters that you may have placed in a geocache, but which have not been picked up yet. They really appreciate it. Quote Link to comment
+SixDogTeam Posted May 6, 2004 Share Posted May 6, 2004 Right On!! We have 31 FTF's and 42 Hides... Quote Link to comment
+Renegade Knight Posted May 6, 2004 Share Posted May 6, 2004 I couldn't even tell you my FTF numbers but there are a few. Like Lep I've pretty much stepped back from the FTF race. On occasion there is a trade item that I'll jump in the car and dash that 30 miles for but not too often. Hell I pretty much agree with Lep's whole post. Everything except for that Hamster part. Everyone knows Gerbils are nicer. Quote Link to comment
+TeamJiffy Posted May 6, 2004 Share Posted May 6, 2004 Marky, Maybe for one of your caches, you could leave another ammo can (or a gift certificate to a nearby army/navy surplus store) nearby as the FTF prize with a little note. If they don't want to go for it, they don't have to, but they have the opportunity. I can see the other side though about people putting out lame caches if forced to do so, but maybe your idea will inspire an even better cache than your own. I am still looking for a good place for my first cache, but maybe I'll try this idea myself.. Marky has certainly done what you suggest. His cache,Take and MAKE a Cache provided material for many folks to place caches around the San Jose area. It succeeded wonderfully. With his and Joani's clever hides, they have given much to the Bay Area caching community. I like Marky's idea, while recognizing that some folks are better finders than hiders. I would prefer to really encourage people to do this, rather than say they must do this. (how can you force them to do something, after all!!?) But other than that subtlety, I support his idea. Especially in an area like San Jose where "FTF" on a cache is valued, and hotly pursued. In other areas, where the culture has not formed to value FTF's, his idea probably won't make much sense, because people in those locations would not think they "got" something by getting a FTF, so there is nothing to "pay back". -Jif Quote Link to comment
+Nazgul Posted May 6, 2004 Share Posted May 6, 2004 There is a very large contingent of FTFders in our area, and Joani and I been thinking that people who go for FTFs should be the ones to give back to the community by hiding caches for every FTF they get. We are pretty much on track with our FTF/hide ratio. With 1 FTF and no owned caches (yet) does that make me pretty close to the ratio or infinitely bad? I appreciate the point you're trying to make, but if people aren't inlcined to put out their own caches I'm not sure it's in anyone's interest to nudge or badger them into doing so. There are other ways to give back as well, like helping others with cache maintenance or whatever. Perhaps a note in the FAQ about geocaching etiquette could mention that "taking" FTFs is fine but as a limited and desireable commodity of sorts, perhaps FTFers should consider giving back in some way that they deem appropriate? Dunno. [end of noob thoughts] Quote Link to comment
+shunra Posted May 6, 2004 Share Posted May 6, 2004 Well, when I find an inspiring cache, regardless of whether I have an FTF or not, then it inspires me to create something similar, and I don't need further prompts or quota. Quote Link to comment
+southdeltan Posted May 6, 2004 Share Posted May 6, 2004 I always figured that for X number of caches you find you should hide some. I try to keep it around 1 cache hidden for every 10 found or so. This may seem like a lot but caches get archived so it doesn't end up being too many. I'm not real strict on that however. I know that as my finds build I won't be able to keep this up. Of course, this is my personal style. I can't fault anybody for playing the game how they want to, but you'd think that after 100's of finds they'd hide a few to give back. Oh well I could care less about FTF. I would MUCH rather find a cache that has some history behind it. I think I have 5 to 10 FTF's but I can only think of 1 time I dropped everything to be the FTF. southdeltan Quote Link to comment
+WalruZ Posted May 6, 2004 Share Posted May 6, 2004 (edited) I can tie this all together. One of the very enthusiastic FTF seekers in part of Marky's range is the same fellow who hid 35 caches to commemorate his 35th birthday. His ratio isn't suffering. Marky got many of the FTFs on that set (and had to work for them, trust me.) I live in this fellow's zip code and have run into him caching. at midnight. often. My ratio isn't that good. I suppose I should make a trip to the Costco Photo department... [] Edited May 6, 2004 by WalruZ Quote Link to comment
+WalruZ Posted May 6, 2004 Share Posted May 6, 2004 (just kidding...) I do believe that people who have > 500 finds and have not placed any caches should get off their duffs and do so. Even in our cache-dense area I still find places that are worth visiting. Quote Link to comment
+CYBret Posted May 6, 2004 Share Posted May 6, 2004 There's nothing wrong with encouraging folks to "give something back" to the community, through discussions like this one. I'm not big on new rules, though. Besides Marky's idea of hiding a cache if you FTF a cache, there are lots of ways to give something back: (yadda yadda yadda) Excellent points (not so much with the hamster, but you know what I mean). Payment in kind might ultimately contribute to the problem rather than make it better. Your ideas are intriguing, Leprechaun, and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter. Bret Quote Link to comment
+briansnat Posted May 6, 2004 Share Posted May 6, 2004 (edited) Nearly anything that encourages new quality hides is a good thing. My only concern is that when a hide is required, it will often wind up in the bush next to the Burger King drive up window. Personally, I still haven't figured out what the big deal is about a FTF. Edited May 6, 2004 by briansnat Quote Link to comment
+workerofwood Posted May 6, 2004 Share Posted May 6, 2004 Having already stated that a better hide:find ratio would be a good thing... it was pointed out that my OWN ratio could stand some work So I took the time I was going to spend searching this afternoon, and placed a couple more caches that I had been meaning to 'get around to' (no 5-stars, but no garbage either). So there you go Marky... already encouraging new hides! (now go hide one yourself so I can get an FTF!) Quote Link to comment
+Touchstone Posted May 7, 2004 Share Posted May 7, 2004 A noble goal Marky. I would also be concerned about lame cache hides. As an alternative, how about hosting an Event/CITO Cache? Putting one of those together certainly constitutes "giving back". Quote Link to comment
+Marky Posted May 7, 2004 Author Share Posted May 7, 2004 With 1 FTF and no owned caches (yet) does that make me pretty close to the ratio or infinitely bad? Lots of great comments and ideas with no personal attacks. I really appreciate that. This comment made me laugh the most though... I definitely think this is more of a personal goal type of thing, and not intended as any type of rule. I'm also thankful for all the great cache hiders in our area. They keep Joani and I entertained, and outside having fun. --Marky Quote Link to comment
Find Now, Log Later? Posted May 7, 2004 Share Posted May 7, 2004 (edited) I guess my reasoning behind this thought is that a normal finder takes nothing away from the community by finding the cache, but since there is only one FTF to be had per cache, you are taking this opportunity away if you are actively going after these. I'm not quite sure what you are getting at here ... are you talking about FTF prizes? Having been FTF on a few caches myself (probably 350 - 400 by now), I note from experience that a significant percentage of those caches (I'd guess something like 15% - 20%) had at least one of these problems: Bad coordinates (From being off a hundred feet or so to being miles and miles off.) Extremely inaccurate ratings (Both over- and under-rating of caches.) Defective Puzzles (Incorrect formulas, for example.) Ill-advised placements (where as a result of feedback, cache owners disabled their caches and moved the cache or elements of multicaches to better locations.) Illegal placements (Speaks for itself. The caches should never have been hidden in those locations.) Damaged Caches (The cache had already been discovered by animals or muggles and was strewn about an area.) The list could go on and on ... I think that helping to sort out such issues early in a cache's existence "takes away" a lot of aggravation for subsequent seekers. In my book, that equates to "giving back to the community." Edited May 7, 2004 by Bassoon Pilot Quote Link to comment
+Lazyboy & Mitey Mite Posted May 7, 2004 Share Posted May 7, 2004 I been thinking that people who go for FTFs should be the ones to give back to the community by hiding caches for every FTF they get. We are pretty much on track with our FTF/hide ratio. I think it's a great idea. It would be nice to see people adopt this concent. I have one cache called Quid Pro Quo and it was designed to get people to hide caches in our area. It worked. Quote Link to comment
+Marky Posted May 7, 2004 Author Share Posted May 7, 2004 I think that helping to sort out such issues early in a cache's existence "takes away" a lot of aggravation for subsequent seekers. In my book, that equates to "giving back to the community." That is a very good point that I overlooked. --Marky Quote Link to comment
+joefrog Posted May 7, 2004 Share Posted May 7, 2004 Bad coordinates (From being off a hundred feet or so to being miles and miles off.)Extremely inaccurate ratings (Both over- and under-rating of caches.) Ah, we're used to those around here. Lots of our hiders use Magellans! Quote Link to comment
MOCKBA Posted May 7, 2004 Share Posted May 7, 2004 that a significant percentage of those caches (I'd guess something like 15% - 20%) had at least one of these problems So what? The vast majority of these problems do not detract from the fun of hunting it. Indeed, inexperience goes naturally with the virgin appeal. Quote Link to comment
+WalruZ Posted May 8, 2004 Share Posted May 8, 2004 I think there's a more general form of the question that could be asked. What do you think of geocachers who have been active for years, who have found hundreds of caches - over a thousand even - and don't hide caches? Aren't they sort of 'sponging' off the work and creativity of everyone else around them who does hide caches? I'm sure you can make excuses or allowances, but isn't what they're doing similar to 'trading down' - taking, and not giving? Quote Link to comment
+bons Posted May 8, 2004 Share Posted May 8, 2004 (edited) isn't what they're doing similar to 'trading down' - taking, and not giving? No. Last I checked the cachers were placed there for people to find. At no point in time was there anything on a FAQ or hide a cache page that I've seen that indicates I'm required to place 1 lame micro for every X caches found or FTF. In fact, given the number of people who complain that there are too many caches in their area and that the .1 mile is stifiling them I think not placing a cache would be giving back to the community. In this case you're "giving back" the unused land for someone who really wants to atke the time to place a nice cache to place one. I want better caches. I want quality. Since there is a limit to the number of caches that can be placed in an area and since this is a growing sport I'm sure quanity will come of it's own accord. I see no need to rush it at a cost of quality. Edited May 8, 2004 by bons Quote Link to comment
+Marky Posted May 8, 2004 Author Share Posted May 8, 2004 I guess this really only makes sense to people who actually actively go for FTFs and have an active group of FTFders in their area. This is obviously not the case in a lot of places. And nowhere in any of my posts am I advocating lame micros. --Marky Quote Link to comment
+The Navigatorz Posted May 8, 2004 Share Posted May 8, 2004 I want better caches. I want quality. I want...I want....I want. How about.. I give....I give...I give. As JFK once said... Ask not what geocaching can do for you. Ask what you can do for geocaching. Quote Link to comment
+bons Posted May 8, 2004 Share Posted May 8, 2004 I'm sorry. Do you have an issue with either the cache I placed or the cache I adopted or the cache I helped my wife place? I'd love to discuss any issues you have with them. Quote Link to comment
+Nurse Dave Posted May 8, 2004 Share Posted May 8, 2004 Hmm, intersting idea. But I say just as a rule if you expect to find caches you should place caches, but there are people that place more than their share and some that place less, so it all evens out. I'd rather people place caches because they find an interesting area that they would like to leave a cache in rather than because they feel they need to. Quote Link to comment
+Lazyboy & Mitey Mite Posted May 8, 2004 Share Posted May 8, 2004 I'm sorry. Do you have an issue with either the cache I placed or the cache I adopted or the cache I helped my wife place? I'd love to discuss any issues you have with them. I believe his complaint might be more about you complaining about quality than anything else, if I read it correctly. Quote Link to comment
+bons Posted May 8, 2004 Share Posted May 8, 2004 I apologise then. I wasn't trying to complain about quality. I was trying to express a fear that creating an obligation that people place a cache for every cache that they're FTF (or any similar reason) would cause new problems as people placed caches, not because the wanted to and because they took pride in them, but because they were obligated to. If someone doesn't want to place a cache, an obligation to do so isn't going to make anyone happy. It won't make the placer happy. It won't inspire future hiders. In fact, it's likely to become an unmaintained TNLNSL McCache. That doesn't sound like a direction I want geocaching to go. Quote Link to comment
+Lazyboy & Mitey Mite Posted May 8, 2004 Share Posted May 8, 2004 As I mentioned earlier I did place Quid Pro Quo which requires the placeing of a cache of your own. Many non hiders have elected not to go after it. Right now I'd settle for any cache as long as the coordinates were good. There isn't anything close to my home. Quote Link to comment
Find Now, Log Later? Posted May 8, 2004 Share Posted May 8, 2004 As JFK once said... "Ehh, Bobby ... whey-uh ahh the blond hahlitts du jour?" Quote Link to comment
+Quest Master Posted May 9, 2004 Share Posted May 9, 2004 Right now I'd settle for any cache as long as the coordinates were good. There isn't anything close to my home. The hiders in your area probably quit the game after finding one too many micros stuck to a phone booth. Quote Link to comment
+Confucius' Cat Posted May 9, 2004 Share Posted May 9, 2004 Bad coordinates (From being off a hundred feet or so to being miles and miles off.)Extremely inaccurate ratings (Both over- and under-rating of caches.) Ah, we're used to those around here. Lots of our hiders use Magellans! So how does a Magellan lead to under rating? And the Magellan coordinates wouldn't be bad if the Garmin engineers hadn't flunked basic math. Quote Link to comment
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