Dear Mr Irish..

[robertlipe]

Reading the cache page works to some extent when you are looking for a local cache to hunt.  However, it doesn't work when planning a trip.

 

Sorry, dude. That's nonsense.

 

I've read tens of thousands of logs to plan my meager number of finds. If you are planning a trip outside your home area and can't affortd the time to research the hunts in the target area, you have relinquished your right to compalin about due dillgence of the placer. Searching a difficultlty 1 and then getting annoyed when finding a guard rail mag keyholder is just unrealisitic. This ain't geocaching in '01.

 

I reiterate, the hunt begins with the web browser; If you're going to hunt blindly, then you can't complain about what you find. (or seek)

 

I've met Lil' Otter and while I can't claim to know her thought process, it seems to me like all she needs is more dillgenence on what she seeks. Having been one of the few '01 generaton seekers on this thread (barely) I'lll concur that the '04 generation seek is double-plus different. If you're looking for a '01-generation placement, you need only adjust your search technique and your expectatiions; you're simply not going to get 300 of them in a 30 mile radius.

 

Searching for "perfect" smileys per square mile-hour takes work and that work begins at your keyboard. Asking the placer -or the site- to create a checkbox for "caches that XXXX might like" is just reasonable. XXXX needs to do homework before leaving his or her terminal.

[+Team DaSH]

Thanks to all of you you for making the last 2 hours of work more interesting.

[+The Lil Otter]

With the loss of virtuals.. created the push for micros at historical/special interest areas.. it was my mistake to think that everyone was yet in the mindframe of showing off special spots within their cities regardless if it was historical or not. With the time I spent in Jacksonville waiting for their CITO event.. was a real eye opener. It was in no way insulting them personally just that it was my first wakeup call to these parking lot/mall hides... I had the best of times last year during my trip and I am sad to see that I distanced so many this year. I have been told to keep my mouth shut and be polite because they put in the efforts... I just wish that geocaching.com would put in the effort for others in my situation that are of the same mindframe.. yet I am told by others here that all information is there IF I did this or that.. it changed alot in one year... Yes.. last year I could rely upon knowing that virtuals usually/most times showed off historical/special interest areas.. now with them mixed in with micros it makes it tougher to find those gems that spark my interests and gives me a grasp upon what was.. just searching for a cache is not good enough for me I wanted a bit more.. Perhaps living in the past (loving historicals) also mirrors my living in the past of what I loved about Geocaching. I know now that even if I run into 30 parking lots in a row.. to keep up the pretense that all is just fine.. that it was my fault for not doing my homework.. that now hours at the computer are needed to find/reseach/redo all .gpx's received from geocaching.com.. I sure didn't have this to do even last July... call me lazy.. but it was fun to see and be surprised on where someone was leading me to through a splotch on my GPS...

 

~The Lil Otter

[+Doc-Dean]

Doing the internet research is part of the fun. When it starts becoming 'not fun' is when I'll start backing off.

[+CYBret]

When I first saw this topic pop up, the first thing I took note of was that Lil Otter had started it. Here's a cacher who's dedication and integrity speaks for itself. You can hear it in her very first post along with her love for this game and the community. I suppose if this is a "someone had to say it" type issue, I'm glad it came from her.

 

Having said that, I have to say that in my eyes this is one of those issues that "Mr. Irish" and the fine folks at Groundspeak can't answer for us. Rather it's a matter of personal responsibility to cache hiders and finders to maintain the integrity of the caches. There are way too many variables (as we've seen in previous examples) for geocaching.com to address. This website is merely a listing service. The heart of the game is maintained by those who play and care and "get it."

 

For my own part, I've experienced the same frustration, though in much smaller doses. The question that struck me one day while searching for the proverbial micro in a bush..."If this was the first cache I ever found, would I have wanted to find a second one?"

 

Maybe that question is a little rough and I certainly don't expect every cache to be a stellar experience, yet is it something the average cache hider even considers? What exactly am I bringing these people to? What am I taking them through? What do I want them to take away from this experience? Maybe all the hider hopes for is you get one more smiley face and another digit on your stats page. Well, at least that's something.

 

For my own part, I don't travel much and simply like to keep my nearest list cleaned out. There are those on that list that are golden--priceless, and there are others that don't quite register the same for me. I always figure in the Karma factor...for every really rough hunt I have to endure the caching gods give me a handful of "lame micros" to keep everything in balance.

[+bigredmed]

With the loss of virtuals.. created the push for micros at historical/special interest areas.. it was my mistake to think that everyone was yet in the mindframe of showing off special spots within their cities regardless if it was historical or not. With the time I spent in Jacksonville waiting for their CITO event.. was a real eye opener. It was in no way insulting them personally just that it was my first wakeup call to these parking lot/mall hides... I had the best of times last year during my trip and I am sad to see that I distanced so many this year. I have been told to keep my mouth shut and be polite because they put in the efforts... I just wish that geocaching.com would put in the effort for others in my situation that are of the same mindframe.. yet I am told by others here that all information is there IF I did this or that.. it changed alot in one year... Yes.. last year I could rely upon knowing that virtuals usually/most times showed off historical/special interest areas.. now with them mixed in with micros it makes it tougher to find those gems that spark my interests and gives me a grasp upon what was.. just searching for a cache is not good enough for me I wanted a bit more.. Perhaps living in the past (loving historicals) also mirrors my living in the past of what I loved about Geocaching. I know now that even if I run into 30 parking lots in a row.. to keep up the pretense that all is just fine.. that it was my fault for not doing my homework.. that now hours at the computer are needed to find/reseach/redo all .gpx's received from geocaching.com.. I sure didn't have this to do even last July... call me lazy.. but it was fun to see and be surprised on where someone was leading me to through a splotch on my GPS...

 

~The Lil Otter

Hang in there, I respect you for bringing this topic up. Quality control and continuous quality improvement are important parts of the game now that it has reached the level that is has.

 

Back when it was a bunch of people who all knew each other, quality took care of itself, when it got bigger, gentle reminders from experienced players and tips from same took care of things.

 

Now its so big that we need to formalize the approach to quality. The Walmicros you complained about are one area, the 1/1 drive and dumps are another. All these need to be considered to be threats to the long term health of the game and of GC.

 

If a city gets full of walmicros, local people will interpret the game as that. If a city is full of obtuse puzzle caches, that is how the game will be perceived locally. The image of the game as a family friendly game that you can do on a Saturday afternoon after work will be replaced by the inaccurate image, no matter how we market the game.

 

Approvers and most importantly cachers, need to adopt the idea that quality is important and setting up a cache is worth spending some time on. If an area can only support micros, then the locals need to get good at these and the approvers need to be willing to challenge quality.

 

One thing that has yet to be brought up in the quality discussion is the concept of talking to your approver BEFORE you place the cache. I am working on the Nebraska arm of an International cache exchange. Looking back, my original idea was pretty fragile and would have been failure prone. Getting some feedback from the approver on the concept, helped me improve the idea before setting it up. Perhaps this should be part of the quality process? That you are required to talk about the cache with your approver before placing it.

 

Sorry for the rant. Like I said at the top, you were brave to bring this up and your comments are going to help improve the game.

[+Lazyboy & Mitey Mite]

Now its so big that we need to formalize the approach to quality. The Walmicros you complained about are one area, the 1/1 drive and dumps are another. All these need to be considered to be threats to the long term health of the game and of GC.

 

I totally disagree with you.

 

My "quality" caches get hit once or twice a year. My "lame" micros get hit all the time. The only whining I ever hear about city micros and such are here, on the forums, by a very vocal group of whiners.

 

The health will be just fine the way it is right now.

[+geospotter]

Lil Otter and BigRedMed,

 

I applaud your concern and foresight with regard to the future of geocaching. We would be foolish to blindly stumble along without regard to the future.

 

Others, please be careful when calling those that disagree with you "whiners". I'm sure that at one point "whiners" suggested being able to download cache info to PDAs. That "whine" became PQs that are used everyday by hundreds (thousands?) of cachers. Does it improve their caching enjoyment? I would have to say "Yes", otherwise why bother with the downloads.

 

I'm sure that many of the improvements that have been made to this site started off with what many might consider a whine.

[+Lazyboy & Mitey Mite]

I'm sure that many of the improvements that have been made to this site started off with what many might consider a whine.

Not everything that has been done to this site is an improvement in my eyes. The website itself is looking better than ever but I know many of us old timers aren't happy with the changes the game has gone through, and the whiners are mostly responsible for that.

[bug and snake]

What is the justification for the word 'official' in the title of this website? How does a website get to be official in something like geocaching? It seems to me that the whole concept of the site being a listing site stands in contradiction of the claim to being 'The Official Global GPS Cache Hunt Site'.

 

GC.com is a commercial entity. This is what gives them the right to refuse or restrict their listing in any way that they wish. Posts bemoaning the rules regarding virtuals, for example, are of no consequence with regard to bringing pressure to bear in the hope of changing the rules. If the people who run the company believe that it is better for the continuance of their organization to make a certain ruling then that is what they will, quite rightly, do.

 

To change the rules in any way requires that there be a connection made between that change and the profitability of the company. (i.e. the website) Please note that I am aware that the people who are Groundspeak (and, by extension, GC.com) are avid and committed cachers. But first, and foremost, they need to make a living too. Remember that when you feel yourself becoming heated about something that does not seem right to you. Your point of view and the GC.com point of view is NOT the same.

 

Did you ever wonder what percentage of site 'members' use the forum? I believe that it is a low number. But, did you ever wonder what percentage of site members are participators in their local society? You see, GC.com is such a good resource that many people see little or no reason to become involved in a local chapter. If, however, the local chapters were to become more prevalent in the geocaching community, to the extent that a national organization were to evolve, encompassing the locals, then the caching fraternity would have some clout. That is when listing rules would change. The only lever that works with a commercial entity is the one that gets under the income aspect. It is right that this is so! It takes a certain type of person to get out there and to start a company that becomes successful, as this one has(?). It follows that that person is the type to have strong beliefs and is willing to follow through with them. Without that, we would not have this site as a resource.

 

Yes, I do want to see a listing rule changed. Well, probably more than one. But I am willing to go with what is here until (if) there is a suitable group to speak up for me.

I have seen, and made input, regarding my pet change and I have seen nothing happen as a result. I understand why. It may change in the future but it is of a low commercial importance so I am not holding my breath. They should not count in regard to the .1 mile rule. I would like to see virtual caches treated in the same, or similar, way as bench marks - they should not count in regard to the .1 mile rule. There is nothing actually there, so the argument about finding one cache while looking for another does not hold water. Like many others on the forum, I am not out looking for valuable items in cache containers. What is that expression again? Oh yeah, 'the hunt is the thing'..... So, there is little in the way of valid argument against the virtual cache. If the hunt really is the thing then even if the 'hider' and the 'seeker' do not agree on the value of a 'virtual' locations value, so what! If 'the hunt really is the thing' and you get there, you have completed another hunt successfully. That is not to be seen as an argument to allow every light pole and manhole cover to posted as a virtual. If the description is less that interesting then, quite rightly, the approver would be correct to question it or refuse it.

 

Anyhow, that was a very long drawn out way to say "I LIKE VIRTUALS" coz I would rather get to an interesting place than to a breath strip container stuck to some parking lot 'whatever' with a bit of Velcro. Please note that this is not an anti-micro thing. It's a 'if micros are OK then give us virtuals too, please' thing.

 

End of rant.....

[+Doc-Dean]

What is the justification for the word 'official' in the title of this website?  How does a website get to be official in something like geocaching?  It seems to me that the whole concept of the site being a listing site stands in contradiction of the claim to being 'The Official Global GPS Cache Hunt Site'.

umm... they just call it official and there is no one to contradict it.

 

For instance, I am the OFFICIAL Geocaching Physician...

Just ask anyone.... no one knows any different to say I am not...

 

See how easy it is!!

[+southdeltan]

I'm sure that many of the improvements that have been made to this site started off with what many might consider a whine.

Not everything that has been done to this site is an improvement in my eyes. The website itself is looking better than ever but I know many of us old timers aren't happy with the changes the game has gone through, and the whiners are mostly responsible for that.

So basically - anybody who has a different opinion is a whiner.

 

[+sbell111]

Sorry, dude. That's nonsense.

...

Very mature, Robert.

 

I guess you missed the point of the many posts that suggest that a combination of attributes and search options could make it easier for people to identify the caches they would enjoy to find. If you believe that reading 1000 cache pages is the best use of your time, go for it. Nobody wants to stop you.

 

I for one, would rather weed out as many caches that I know that I will not enjoy before I begin to look at the pages.

[+CYBret]

umm... they just call it official and there is no one to contradict it.

 

For instance, I am the OFFICIAL Geocaching Physician...

Just ask anyone.... no one knows any different to say I am not...

 

See how easy it is!!

<--- Official Geocaching preacher.....hmmm...no...can't say that I like that title....

 

how about "His HOLINESS, the Official Geocaching Preacher...hmmmm..yeah...we're gettin' there.

 

 

Bret

[+southdeltan]

Did you ever wonder what percentage of site 'members' use the forum? I believe that it is a low number. But, did you ever wonder what percentage of site members are participators in their local society? You see, GC.com is such a good resource that many people see little or no reason to become involved in a local chapter. If, however, the local chapters were to become more prevalent in the geocaching community, to the extent that a national organization were to evolve, encompassing the locals, then the caching fraternity would have some clout. That is when listing rules would change. The only lever that works with a commercial entity is the one that gets under the income aspect. It is right that this is so! It takes a certain type of person to get out there and to start a company that becomes successful, as this one has(?). It follows that that person is the type to have strong beliefs and is willing to follow through with them. Without that, we would not have this site as a resource.

I agree with you that MOST geocachers do not participate in the forums. This comes up at events and most either don't know what they are, don't have the time - or mainly don't like the "mess" that goes on here.

 

In my experience, in our area geocachers are much more involved in the local "organization". Not sure what this has to do with GC.com - local websites don't tend to list (many) geocaches.

 

Regardless of what people say about "numbers" - they want their finds/etc tallied in one spot - GC.com is by far the best.

 

------------

 

Back to the original topic.

 

I agree you should read the cache page. I don't agree about logs because they often give away too much information.

 

However - the problem is this - cache pages often have LITTLE relevant information. Of course, some people get told to not put the info in there because it "ruins" the hunt.

 

Reading the cache page doesn't help much if the page doesn't have useful information - and today, more and more of them have less and less useful info.

 

southdeltan

[bug and snake]

But, did you ever wonder what percentage of site members are participators in their local society?  You see, GC.com is such a good resource that many people see little or no reason to become involved in a local chapter.  If, however, the local chapters were to become more prevalent in the geocaching community, to the extent that a national organization were to evolve, encompassing the locals, then the caching fraternity would have some clout.  That is when listing rules would change.

I agree with you that MOST geocachers do not participate in the forums. This comes up at events and most either don't know what they are, don't have the time - or mainly don't like the "mess" that goes on here.

 

In my experience, in our area geocachers are much more involved in the local "organization". Not sure what this has to do with GC.com - local websites don't tend to list (many) geocaches.

 

Regardless of what people say about "numbers" - they want their finds/etc tallied in one spot - GC.com is by far the best.southdeltan

I was trying, in my usual convoluted manner, to find out how many (percentage?) people are involved with the 'locals'. The point simply being to suggest that if change is needed, or wanted, here, then a communication from a society would have more clout than a lone cacher stating a personal opinion on the forum.

 

I know that is marginal regarding 'being on topic' but I relates slightly!

 

Edit: shortening the quote

Edited April 30, 2004 by bug&snake

[+Monkeybrad]

Is everyone intentionally overlooking the fact that most of this can already be done. Use your pq's and a third party software application to weed out things that you know you do not like (puzzle caches for instance) then do a little homework on your own. It is not difficult to figure out who the predominant hiders in an area are, take a look at a random sampling of their caches, if they appeal to you include them, if not pass on over. It really does not take that long. Of course, you could just opt for my approach and do all of them, all the while being thankful that someone took the time to hide the cache, even if it is lame in my opinion.

 

Steve, I think you missed the point of Robert's post, it seems to me that he was just pointing out that the technology and information is already there, and that everyone seems to be asking for the sight to do the work for them instead of them investing some of their own time. I may be wrong, but that is how I read it.

[MOCKBA]

cache pages often have LITTLE relevant information.

anybody has any experience or desire to AI / bot-categorize the caches? By parsing out both cache description and the logs? Some possible ideas are

- length of logs, possibly normalized by finder's distribution

- dnf ratios and median time elapsed between finds

- specific keywords and keyword combinations

- finds by a group of geocachers who have found a certain seeding set of caches

[+sbell111]

My feeling is that since some type of attributes are in the works (if my recollection is correct), it will not be difficult to make these attributes searchable via PQs. In my opinion, this whole discussion simply looks forward to site improvements that are already in the planning stage. Frankliy, it amazes me that this thread every made it beyond eight or ten posts and a markwell or two.

[+SeventhSon]

Just curious ...

 

When you guys find these "lame" micros, and decide they were placed just to up someone's hide count, and then help the number runners up their find count, do you consider the hunt a big enough waste of your time that you won't waste more of your time logging them online? Or do you log them and up your find count?

 

The initial reason for being hidden is to be found. The rest is just gravy.

 

7

Edited April 30, 2004 by SeventhSon

[+drat19]

I do not particularly enjoy doing yet another guard rail cache, but it is not my cache and it was not placed especially for me, so who am i to pass judgement on it.

Your point has merit, no question about it. Here's another way to look at it (and I'm not saying my way is "right" any more than yours here, promise):

 

As a leading cacher in your area (and by "leading" I don't necessarily mean your stats - a "leading"cacher, in my opinion, means someone who cares about the integrity of our game and in making it better for all who participate, and all who choose to join us), you DO have a certain level of ownership for the overall reputation of your area in the caching community. While it's true that you and JoGPS and your other local 'leaders" are not necessarily the hiders of the caches we're calling "lame" on this thread, the fact is that among the caching community, Nashville is known as "JoGPS/Monkeybrad/<and other prominent names> Country"...just as the Miss. Gulf Coast is "drat19 Country", Win-Sal, NC is "Honeychile Country", etc. Word gets out as to "who to contact" when planning to visit a certain area. Are you or I the only hiders in our areas? Of course not. But like it or not, our names are known and associated with our respective areas.

 

As a local leader, I believe I have an obligation to work with my fellow local cachers to try to keep the quality and reputation of our area high. No, that doesn't mean imposing my own personal hiding style on others...most folks have a heck of a lot more creativity than I do. However, it does mean that if a new hider in my area rushes out and makes their first hide without taking some time to experience a good cross-section of hiding styles, and places a leaking Ziploc container, or guardrail cache near a pile of dog-poop, I can offer them a gentle constructive criticism that maybe that cache might be perceived less than favorably by visiting cachers (or local cachers, for that matter), for these x, y, and z reasons. I might also advise them that while one or two of these "quick and easy "caches are just fine and welcomed by many, unfortunately there are many metro areas in the country where such styles have become pervasive and those areas are known for "only that", and some more interesting caches get overlooked because of that...and that we need to work together so that our area retains a POSITIVE reputation for a VARIETY of hiding styles, and ENCOURAGES caching visitors to come, and to tell their friends after they've been here.

 

I usually try to arrange an in-person visit with local newcomers to talk about these things, because the spoken word and facial/vocal inflection go a long way toward expressing to these folks that I mean WELL and want to work TOGETHER with them, and not be JUDGMENTAL. The written word in Emails and here on the forums, alone, can often be interpreted as being negative, arrogant, pompous, and any other adjective that we all think about when we read posts around here.

 

Yes, we need better tools to try to help cachers filter out categories of caches they'd prefer (or not prefer) to hunt, but we also need to TAKE OWNERSHIP in working with our fellow cachers to keep the cache quality high.

 

-Dave R. in Biloxi

Edited April 30, 2004 by drat19

[+drat19]

My feeling is that since some type of attributes are in the works (if my recollection is correct), it will not be difficult to make these attributes searchable via PQs. In my opinion, this whole discussion simply looks forward to site improvements that are already in the planning stage. Frankliy, it amazes me that this thread every made it beyond eight or ten posts and a markwell or two.

True, Lil Otter's original post spoke to looking for filtering tools on the site (hence the "Dear Mr Irish..." thread title), but whether intentionally or not, it also has brought into great focus and mostly intelligent discourse the issue so many of us are now aware of: That our game is evolving in a direction that maybe it ought not to go (in the opinion of some, including myself).

 

No, it doesn't mean that it's now ONLY about what many of us are calling "lame" micros, but it DOES mean that in many areas, those caches are becoming dominant and pervasive, and are taking the focus away from so many other styles of caches and hides that the game STILL has to offer, both to newcomers as well as to us grizzled veterans.

 

-Dave R.

[+Kitch]

For instance, I am the OFFICIAL Geocaching Physician...

Just ask anyone.... no one knows any different to say I am not...

 

That's cool...I'm opening up the

Offices of PsychoCaching the clinic of geocaching phobias,fears, and anxiety.

 

I'm more then willing to let this franchise out to other locations.

 

To keep this on topic...this cache is a micro on the side of the road. BUT!!! I'm proud of it. It's a great view.

[+King Boreas]

To keep this on topic...this cache is a micro on the side of the road. BUT!!! I'm proud of it. It's a great view.

 

Thank you.

[+The SuzyQs]

What is the justification for the word 'official' in the title of this website?  How does a website get to be official in something like geocaching?  It seems to me that the whole concept of the site being a listing site stands in contradiction of the claim to being 'The Official Global GPS Cache Hunt Site'.

umm... they just call it official and there is no one to contradict it.

 

For instance, I am the OFFICIAL Geocaching Physician...

Just ask anyone.... no one knows any different to say I am not...

 

See how easy it is!!

Yes, and we have an appointment with the OFFICIAL Geocaching physician on May 2nd at 11:30am. and you all are invited to attend...

[+Salvelinus]

Just curious ...

 

When you guys find these "lame" micros, and decide they were placed just to up someone's hide count, and then help the number runners up their find count, do you consider the hunt a big enough waste of your time that you won't waste more of your time logging them online? Or do you log them and up your find count? 

 

The initial reason for being hidden is to be found. The rest is just gravy.

 

7

I have 3 of those "lame" ones I did not log and have no intention of ever logging them. If I knew what they were before I went for them...I never would have.

 

My primary reason for hiding caches is not for them to just be found. Just finding something is not why I geocache at all. I hide caches so others will have a quality search and be able experience interesting and beautiful places. They may even learn something they didn't know before. At the end hopefully they will find something of mine that reflects what I hoped they would get out of the experience.

 

Salvelinus

Edited April 30, 2004 by Salvelinus

[+Renegade Knight]

...it was my mistake to think that everyone was yet in the mindframe of showing off special spots within their cities regardless if it was historical or not....

robertlipes post at the top above is a good summery.

 

It isn't so much a mistake to think that people will want to showcase the nice parts of their town. The mistake is to think that once they have caches in those spots they will stop placing caches...

Edited April 30, 2004 by Renegade Knight

[+Snoogans]

...it was my mistake to think that everyone was yet in the mindframe of showing off special spots within their cities regardless if it was historical or not....

robertlipes post at the top above is a good summery.

 

It isn't so much a mistake to think that people will want to showcase the nice parts of their town. The mistake is to think that once they have caches in those spots they will stop placing caches...

You split an arrow that time Robinhood? Excellent Point!

[+Volwrath]

I agree with RobertLipe. If one does his (or her) research, one can cut down on the number of lame caches to attempt. Another good idea is if you are traveling to Jacksonville, or Omaha, or Nashville, go to that area of the countrys forum and ask the regulars what the best caches are.

 

EDIT:GSAK is an excellent tool to weed out caches.

Edited April 30, 2004 by Volwrath

[+hikemeister]

My two cents worth -- and it won't take 500 lines to make the point -- if you don't like those 'cheap' caches then don't waste your time looking for them.

 

[+IceCreamMan]

blah.. blah.. blah.. etc.. etc.. etc..

 

(sighs)..

 

~The Lil Otter

I was pleased to meet Lil Otter at our CITO event here in Jacksonville last weekend and was surprised to find that we were from the same small town in Wisconisn. Unfortunately, I also heard a good bit of whining, of the type in her post, about the quality of caches in our area.

 

What really irks me about her whinning, is that while listening to her describe her preparations for her trip, I soon realized she didn't do any. Just pulled pocket queries for the large urban centers (effectively screening out some of the best hides) and didn't bother to read any descriptions. Someone takes the time and effort of hiding a cache, she doesn't even bother to take the time and effort to read the description and she trashes the owner?

 

Her attitude can be summed up - "Well gosh, if you Jacksonville Folks would just limit your hides to the kind of caches that I enjoy I could come from out of town and not waste my time reading cache descriptions or doing those icky micros."

 

When I travel I spend a great deal of time selecting caches to do (part of the fun). Hey, don't invest the time if you don't want. but don't whine about not getting the experience you desire.

 

Having cached in numerous areas, I can attest that each has it's own charms and it's own pains. One thing Jacksonville has is LOTS of caches. We have lots of hikes. We have lots of history. What we also have is lots of micros. Anyone who can't find a large number of just the kind of caches they like in Jacksonville, just hasn't put out much effort. In Lil' Otter's case, she put out NO effort.

 

I've also done some caching in Nashville (which she also trashed). Some of the best caches I've done are in Nashville. If she bi-passed it so as not to be sullied by the numerous micros, she missed the boat. It's a great town, regardless of the kinds of caches you enjoy.

 

What alarmed me about her post is that she seems to believe her opinion should dictate what caches are and aren't allowed. How arrogant! But then Wisconsin is somewhat of a Lefty state. Folks up there like to have a hand in running other peoples lives (one reason it's a great place to be FROM). Guess the politics just pours over into their hobbies as well.

 

Reminds me of one of my favorite bumper stickers - "I don't care how they do it up north"

 

On one point I aggree with Lil Otter. Tools for screening caches more effectively would add the value of gc.com. Except for obsessive/compulsives (like myself) who are drivin to methodically clean out an area.

[+Lazyboy & Mitey Mite]

I'm sure that many of the improvements that have been made to this site started off with what many might consider a whine.

Not everything that has been done to this site is an improvement in my eyes. The website itself is looking better than ever but I know many of us old timers aren't happy with the changes the game has gone through, and the whiners are mostly responsible for that.

So basically - anybody who has a different opinion is a whiner.

 

Here let me simply it for you. I know you love to lump people in categorys but here ya go,

 

Whiners=I hate micros

Whiners=I hate locationless

Whiners=I hate virtuals

 

I hate whiners, must make me one too.

[+Snoogans]

blah.. blah.. blah.. etc.. etc.. etc..

 

(sighs)..

 

~The Lil Otter

I was pleased to meet Lil Otter at our CITO event here in Jacksonville last weekend and was surprised to find that we were from the same small town in Wisconisn. Unfortunately, I also heard a good bit of whining, of the type in her post, about the quality of caches in our area.

 

What really irks me about her whinning, is that while listening to her describe her preparations for her trip, I soon realized she didn't do any. Just pulled pocket queries for the large urban centers (effectively screening out some of the best hides) and didn't bother to read any descriptions. Someone takes the time and effort of hiding a cache, she doesn't even bother to take the time and effort to read the description and she trashes the owner?

 

Her attitude can be summed up - "Well gosh, if you Jacksonville Folks would just limit your hides to the kind of caches that I enjoy I could come from out of town and not waste my time reading cache descriptions or doing those icky micros."

 

When I travel I spend a great deal of time selecting caches to do (part of the fun). Hey, don't invest the time if you don't want. but don't whine about not getting the experience you desire.

 

Having cached in numerous areas, I can attest that each has it's own charms and it's own pains. One thing Jacksonville has is LOTS of caches. We have lots of hikes. We have lots of history. What we also have is lots of micros. Anyone who can't find a large number of just the kind of caches they like in Jacksonville, just hasn't put out much effort. In Lil' Otter's case, she put out NO effort.

 

I've also done some caching in Nashville (which she also trashed). Some of the best caches I've done are in Nashville. If she bi-passed it so as not to be sullied by the numerous micros, she missed the boat. It's a great town, regardless of the kinds of caches you enjoy.

 

What alarmed me about her post is that she seems to believe her opinion should dictate what caches are and aren't allowed. How arrogant! But then Wisconsin is somewhat of a Lefty state. Folks up there like to have a hand in running other peoples lives (one reason it's a great place to be FROM). Guess the politics just pours over into their hobbies as well.

 

Reminds me of one of my favorite bumper stickers - "I don't care how they do it up north"

 

On one point I aggree with Lil Otter. Tools for screening caches more effectively would add the value of gc.com. Except for obsessive/compulsives (like myself) who are drivin to methodically clean out an area.

Mannnnn, another long post. I didn't pull the rip cord this time. I enjoyed EVERY word. I respect civility. That was a great FIRST HAND response.

 

Sn gans

[+PandyBat]

The best solution I have heard is to limit the number of caches any one person can hide. It could be a fixed limit such as x number of hides or a dynamic limit such as x hides per month.

 

I believe that this would improve the quality of hides dramatically. I have observed time and time again that it is primarily the numbers-obsessed cache-bagging crowd who hide too many of the lame roadside micros that so many are complaining about. I believe that there are relatively few of these people and even less that will actually admit to it. They hide way more than their share and impose their brand of geocaching on the rest of us by flooding the listings with their junk hides. Why should anybody be allowed to dominate the game by the shear number of caches they hide? Why should they be permitted to hide an unmaintainable quantitiy of caches? It's getting harder and harder to find the good ones in their sea of crap. It's a problem that needs to be addressed! The game will be better if and when these cache polluters are put out of business.

I agree with this statement. If you go back to the original idea behind geocaching and to how geocaching is promoted even to this day, it was to find "treasures" and enjoy interesting places and sites. The simple guidelines of find the cache, take something, leave something and sign the logbook are being whittled down to more like find the micro and sign the logbook. That's because it's becoming nothing more than people trashing every nook and cranny with film canisters and altoids tins just for the easy hides and to get their numbers up. I just don't like that this is becoming the norm for geocaching. Limiting the number of caches hidden per member per month would eliminate lame hides and give the hider time to actually prepare a good cache instead of throwing a film canister out somewhere that gives the finder no sense of the area or why they were brought to that cache in the first place. But it also limits the people that regularly hide good caches.

 

So maybe a better solution would be to limit the number of micros that could be hidden per member per month? If someone wants to make a new account everytime they want to get around this rule, then let them. But I am banking that the ones that hide 100's of micros just for the numbers won't make new accounts because they want to keep their stats tied to just one account. Limiting would at least cut down on the lame micros a little bit. Also making a micro hider explain or describe to the approvers why this is a good spot for a micro would help. Making them include that description on the cache page might make them think before dropping a micro somewhere that has no dynamic interest attached to the area it's hidden in.

Or maybe seperating the micros from the rest of the caches like the benchmarks are? Just suggestions.....

 

When I first started geocaching, I was so excited and I wanted to go out and hide a cache right away. But someone adviced me that I should wait and find a few caches before hiding one to get the feel for what it takes to hide a cache. Well, I certainly don't see where that advice even holds water anymore since it's no big deal to TPTB where a cache is hidden as long as its not hidden on private property and no consideration is taken into account for the historical/scenic/adventure aspect of where the micro is hidden. I see the point in micros and some I like and most I hate. But when I do a search and 75% of the caches I have offered to me are micros hidden in the stupidest of places, I start to find them boring. As does my daughter. Most micros are not very family friendly.

 

Just suggesting that a simple solution would be to go out and hide traditional caches and that it might encourage others to do the same is just plain bull. It's not going to matter to those hiding micros just for the numbers.

 

If GC.com can ban other variations of caches from being hidden, why would limiting micros be so hard? I certainly don't want to see micros banned from this site like locationless and virtuals (bring them back, please), but there does need to be some policing in the placing of micros in order for them a part of this game and to keep this game fun, inventive and creative.

 

Some of us liked things better before numbers hungry cachers started spreading junk caches like they were sowing seeds. I have nothing against caching for numbers..its part of this game. But myself and others have strong feelings about poor cache quality moving this game further and further from its roots.

I couldn't have said it better myself!

[+PandyBat]

Have to give Drat19 a big, ditto, on his post. As I had mentioned in an early post I think there are Geocachers out there who would appreciate the creation of a "micro" icon. Just like there are icons for traditonals, virtuals, multis, ect. Given the proliferation of micros in some areas it would help if we had a way to identifiy when pulling up an entire page of caches without having to read each page.

I like this suggestion. That would be most helpful to sort the micros from the rest of the caches.

[+PandyBat]

I predict this thread will become a flame fest.

 

My favorite parting shot of late:

 

"Everyone plays their own game. There is no sense in trying to police another's mindset as long as it falls within the general parameters of the game." Me (quoting myself from the poll that I posted on 10/23/03.)

 

Sn   gans

Do you think this quote pertains to EVERY thread topic?

 

The game is ever changing, ever evolving.....as well as the mindset of those playing it. Where's the drawn line?

[+PandyBat]

With the loss of virtuals.. created the push for micros at historical/special interest areas..  it was my mistake to think that everyone was yet in the mindframe of showing off special spots within their cities regardless if it was historical or not.  With the time I spent in Jacksonville waiting for their CITO event.. was a real eye opener.  It was in no way insulting them personally just that it was my first wakeup call to these parking lot/mall hides... I had the best of times last year during my trip and I am sad to see that I distanced so many this year.    I have been told to keep my mouth shut and be polite because they put in the efforts...  I just wish that geocaching.com would put in the effort for others in my situation that are of the same mindframe..  yet I am told by others here that all information is there IF I did this or that..  it changed alot in one year...  Yes.. last year I could rely upon knowing that virtuals usually/most times showed off historical/special interest areas.. now with them mixed in with micros it makes it tougher to find those gems that spark my interests and gives me a grasp upon what was..  just searching for a cache is not good enough for me I wanted a bit more.. Perhaps living in the past (loving historicals)  also mirrors my living in the past of what I loved about Geocaching.    I know now that even if I run into 30 parking lots in a row.. to keep up the pretense that all is just fine..  that it was my fault for not doing my homework..  that now hours at the computer are needed to find/reseach/redo all .gpx's received from geocaching.com..  I sure didn't have this to do even last July...  call me lazy.. but it was fun to see and be surprised on where someone was leading me to through a splotch on my GPS...

 

~The Lil Otter

Hang in there, I respect you for bringing this topic up. Quality control and continuous quality improvement are important parts of the game now that it has reached the level that is has.

 

Back when it was a bunch of people who all knew each other, quality took care of itself, when it got bigger, gentle reminders from experienced players and tips from same took care of things.

 

Now its so big that we need to formalize the approach to quality. The Walmicros you complained about are one area, the 1/1 drive and dumps are another. All these need to be considered to be threats to the long term health of the game and of GC.

 

If a city gets full of walmicros, local people will interpret the game as that. If a city is full of obtuse puzzle caches, that is how the game will be perceived locally. The image of the game as a family friendly game that you can do on a Saturday afternoon after work will be replaced by the inaccurate image, no matter how we market the game.

 

Approvers and most importantly cachers, need to adopt the idea that quality is important and setting up a cache is worth spending some time on. If an area can only support micros, then the locals need to get good at these and the approvers need to be willing to challenge quality.

 

One thing that has yet to be brought up in the quality discussion is the concept of talking to your approver BEFORE you place the cache. I am working on the Nebraska arm of an International cache exchange. Looking back, my original idea was pretty fragile and would have been failure prone. Getting some feedback from the approver on the concept, helped me improve the idea before setting it up. Perhaps this should be part of the quality process? That you are required to talk about the cache with your approver before placing it.

I like your thinking, bigredmed! This is how I feel too. If the approvers don't care about quality, then who will and what will the game be like in 5 years if something isn't done about the quality and placement of caches?

[+geoPirat]

Hi Lil Otter from Germany!

I read this topic with interest, because here in Europe / Germany the geocaching sport is at a point where you in the states have been years ago.

 

Buxley's stats say, we have about 5.700 Caches in Germany (about 17.600 in Europe) compared to the 81.400 caches in the USA. That means, caches are pretty rare here . The typical cache rate on a day is 1 hour per cache (incl. driving), in some urban area (Hamburg etc.) it is better.

 

Because you have to invest so much time in one cache, I am disappointed if it is "just a cache" with nothing interesting to see. So I try to prepare by reading the cache pages. I have not yet discovered the "find the "nice / interesting" caches method on my PC .

 

My point: Even with "few" caches in an "old fashioned" style in Europe does not really make a cachers life much easier. Investing time in the preparation is always a good investment. Filtering instruments like you mentioned would be nice. But please no more rule and limits, life at GC.COM has enough rules - and who could enforce / control them?

 

But an important thing I wanted to mention: By reading this thread I was linked to your homepage - and for me your caching history is very inspiring. What a great time to drive through your country for months - just traveling and caching! Wow - I am envious ! Thanks for this thread, your thoughts are definitely worth discussing.

[+wimseyguy]

pandybat wrote:

I like your thinking, bigredmed! This is how I feel too. If the approvers don't care about quality, then who will and what will the game be like in 5 years if something isn't done about the quality and placement of caches?

Actually the point that drat19 and I have tried to make earlier in this thread is that WE the geocaching community need to be more proactive in our self policing.

It is a cache owners responsibility to verify find claims(especially virts). It is a cache owners responsibility to maintain their property and the cache log.

It came as no surprise that the majority of the soggy logs we encountered were in the cache type being discussed in this thread (and others).

Is it that much of a stretch from this attitude to say that the community leaders everywhere, approver or not have some responsibilty to their locale?

If someone, new or old is flooding the area with low quality caches let them know.

That is the only way there can be any quality control in this RASH.

 

I know I am repeating myself-but this thought is lost several pages back:

I probably will not tell a friend or new cacher that his latest effort is lame and sucks. I would say something if he/she/it places dozens more like it.

I will report caches that are placed in NC State parks without permits, as some of us are working to improve that relationship.

The worst caches I have ever found (yes, I did log the find, and experiences some slight enjoyment) have been placed by fairly new players.

Where did they learn from?

[+Mastifflover]

Have to give Drat19 a big, ditto, on his post. As I had mentioned in an early post I think there are Geocachers out there who would appreciate the creation of a "micro" icon. Just like there are icons for traditonals, virtuals, multis, ect. Given the proliferation of micros in some areas it would help if we had a way to identifiy when pulling up an entire page of caches without having to read each page.

I like this suggestion. That would be most helpful to sort the micros from the rest of the caches.

We already have this ability with pocket queries.

[+Mastifflover]

Also making a micro hider explain or describe to the approvers why this is a good spot for a micro would help. Making them include that description on the cache page might make them think before dropping a micro somewhere that has no dynamic interest attached to the area it's hidden in.

If we are going to put limits and make a cache hider somehow prove that his cache is "worthy" than why limit it to micros. The same should be applied to traditionals. I've found traditionals that would fail the test, it just took a longer walk to get there.

[+clearpath]

I love lame micros.

[+drat19]

Also making a micro hider explain or describe to the approvers why this is a good spot for a micro would help. Making them include that description on the cache page might make them think before dropping a micro somewhere that has no dynamic interest attached to the area it's hidden in.

If we are going to put limits and make a cache hider somehow prove that his cache is "worthy" than why limit it to micros. The same should be applied to traditionals. I've found traditionals that would fail the test, it just took a longer walk to get there.

I agree! Maybe the only thing worse than chasing 50, 60, 70 lamppost base dumpster micros is hiking through the woods to search for a leaking container with soggy contents wrapped in a soggy, mildewed plastic garbage bag.

 

THANKFULLY, that seems to have been a trend from the "early" days of Geocaching, and we're seeing less of it (folks are realizing that if you feel a container needs a plastic bag to help protect it, maybe the container wasn't water-tight enough in the first place). Now if only we could get our newbies to start realizing that those disposable Ziploc containers look great on the store shelves, but quickly deteriorate into leaking sieves once exposed to the elements and repeated handling by cache finders. (This is where gentle coaching by experienced cachers in an area goes a long way).

 

-Dave R.

[+Snoogans]

I predict this thread will become a flame fest.

 

My favorite parting shot of late:

 

"Everyone plays their own game. There is no sense in trying to police another's mindset as long as it falls within the general parameters of the game." Me (quoting myself from the poll that I posted on 10/23/03.)

 

Sn   gans

Do you think this quote pertains to EVERY thread topic?

 

The game is ever changing, ever evolving.....as well as the mindset of those playing it. Where's the drawn line?

WHY in heck does a line need to be drawn? Who should be the supreme and mighty, exalted one to draw it? YOU?

 

SHEESH!!!

 

I use that quote whenever people like YOU and the originator of this thread mistakenly THINK their own personal aesthetic should dictate how others experience this great sport/game.

 

I respect the opinions of others. I would never have the audacity to try to enforce my own personal aesthetic on them to MAKE them experience the game as I DO.

 

While I actually agree with some of this I totally don't believe in narrowing horizons. I actually understand that my opinion is JUST my opinion.

 

This is my new favorite quote:

 

"Failure is a hard pill to swallow until you realize the only failure you can really have in this sport is the failure to enjoy yourself."

TotemLake 4/26/04

 

SOMEONE FAILED TO HAVE FUN ON A CACHE HUNT. (and didn't accept responsibility for their own experience for whatever reason they can rationalize in their own petty mind.)

 

OH, THE HUMANITY!!!!

 

EVERYONE OUT OF THE POOL WHILE WE CHANGE THE RULES TO SUIT THEM.

 

Ummmm, NOT.

 

Sn gans

[+JMBella]

Dear Mr. Approver,

I am writing to kindly ask you to please approve my micro cache. Although it is in fact hidden in a light pole, the view of the local landfill from that location is spectacular. Also, it is in the parking lot of an abandoned clothing factory (aka sweat shop), which was previously a newspaper printing facility, which was previously someone house, which was previously a vacant lot with trees on it. Historians say some of those trees were nearly 200 years old! So you can see this location has tremendous historic significance as well. As you know this area is starving for new caches. With only 342 caches hidden in a 15 mile radius, this cache will be a welcome addition. The next closest cache is whole 529 feet away!!! BTW, I was arrested while hiding it because the police thought I was a drug dealer and I was trespassing. When the owner of the property found out, he actually bailed me out. He happens to be an avid geocacher himself and gave me written permission to place my cache!

 

Just a side note. If you don't approve this cache I will start a flame thread in the forums claiming I've been treated unfairly and that you, as an admin, suck a**.

 

Thank you in advance for you consideration.

 

 

I don't want to play a game where I need to ask permission and explain the worthiness of every single one of my caches. If you don't like what's playing on the radio, change the station. There are already enough guidelines. If a cache is placed within those guidelines it should be approved. That doesn't mean you need to go find it.

[+Snoogans]

I don't want to play a game where I need to ask permission and explain the worthiness of every single one of my caches. If you don't like what's playing on the radio, change the station. There are already enough guidelines. If a cache is placed within those guidelines it should be approved. That doesn't mean you need to go find it.

AMEN.

 

A geocacher was complaining about lame virtuals and micros at a recent event.

 

I asked him, "So did you log them?"

 

His reply: "I can't NOT log a cache."

 

I actually agreed with him although I didn't tell him. I didn't want to validate his point. I stopped hunting virts by that hider. Ummm, he didn't.

 

Sn gans

[+Mastifflover]

I respect the opinions of others. I would never have the audacity to try to enforce my own personal aesthetic on them to MAKE them experience the game as I DO.

 

While I actually agree with some of this I totally don't believe in narrowing horizons. I actually understand that my opinion is JUST my opinion.

 

This is my new favorite quote:

 

"Failure is a hard pill to swallow until you realize the only failure you can really have in this sport is the failure to enjoy yourself."

TotemLake 4/26/04

 

SOMEONE FAILED TO HAVE FUN ON A CACHE HUNT. (and didn't accept responsibility for their own experience for whatever reason they can rationalize in their own petty mind.)

 

OH, THE HUMANITY!!!!

 

EVERYONE OUT OF THE POOL WHILE WE CHANGE THE RULES TO SUIT THEM.

 

Ummmm,  NOT.

 

Sn   gans

Bravo!!!! If there were audio you would hear me clapping.

[+drat19]

JMB...

I'm a little confused by your most recent post. In this part of your post...

 

I don't want to play a game where I need to ask permission and explain the worthiness of every single one of my caches. If you don't like what's playing on the radio, change the station.  There are already enough guidelines. If a cache is placed within those guidelines it should be approved. That doesn't mean you need to go find it.

 

...you have continued your point that we shouldn't foist our own opinions on what makes a "good" cache or not...if they're in the guidelines, let 'em go, and searchers can decide whether or not to go find 'em. OK, fair enough counterpoint. I believe the original poster on this thread was actually of the same mind...if we can't (or don't think it's right to) prevent the proliferation of these types of caches we've been talking about, then at least give searchers improved tools to be able to choose not to search for them.

 

Then, in the other part of your post...

 

Dear Mr. Approver,

  I am writing to kindly ask you to please approve my micro cache. Although it is in fact hidden in a light pole, the view of the local landfill from that location is spectacular. Also, it is in the parking lot of an abandoned clothing factory (aka sweat shop), which was previously a newspaper printing facility, which was previously someone house, which was previously a vacant lot with trees on it. Historians say some of those trees were nearly 200 years old! So you can see this location has tremendous historic significance as well.  As you know this area is starving for new caches. With only 342 caches hidden in a 15 mile radius, this cache will be a welcome addition.  The next closest cache is whole 529 feet away!!! BTW, I was arrested while hiding it because the police thought I was a drug dealer and I was trespassing. When the owner of the property found out, he actually bailed me out. He happens to be an avid geocacher himself and gave me written permission to place my cache! 

 

Just a side note.  If you don't approve this cache I will start a flame thread in the forums claiming I've been treated unfairly and that you, as an admin, suck a**.

 

Thank you in advance for you consideration.

 

...you validated what many of us have also been saying on this thread, which is that many areas have become OVERRUN with this type of cache. I read your sarcasm (I'm a fellow NY'er, but I've been transplanted out of NYC for 14 years now, maybe I'm missing it) (seriously) as a comment that you AGREE with the point about this proliferation in many areas maybe taking our game in a direction many people think it ought not to go.

 

Have I read you right?

-Dave R. in Biloxi

[+PandyBat]

I predict this thread will become a flame fest.

 

My favorite parting shot of late:

 

"Everyone plays their own game. There is no sense in trying to police another's mindset as long as it falls within the general parameters of the game." Me (quoting myself from the poll that I posted on 10/23/03.)

 

Sn   gans

Do you think this quote pertains to EVERY thread topic?

 

The game is ever changing, ever evolving.....as well as the mindset of those playing it. Where's the drawn line?

WHY in heck does a line need to be drawn? Who should be the supreme and mighty, exalted one to draw it? YOU?

 

SHEESH!!!

 

I use that quote whenever people like YOU and the originator of this thread mistakenly THINK their own personal aesthetic should dictate how others experience this great sport/game.

 

I respect the opinions of others. I would never have the audacity to try to enforce my own personal aesthetic on them to MAKE them experience the game as I DO.

 

Sn gans

Whoa....Calm down.

 

I'm not trying to dictate how this game is played. I'm discussing and offering suggestions just like everyone else.

[+southdeltan]

I'm sure that many of the improvements that have been made to this site started off with what many might consider a whine.

Not everything that has been done to this site is an improvement in my eyes. The website itself is looking better than ever but I know many of us old timers aren't happy with the changes the game has gone through, and the whiners are mostly responsible for that.

So basically - anybody who has a different opinion is a whiner.

 

Here let me simply it for you. I know you love to lump people in categorys but here ya go,

 

Whiners=I hate micros

Whiners=I hate locationless

Whiners=I hate virtuals

 

I hate whiners, must make me one too.

Um... ok...

 

I'm not sure how you know what I like to do... but I think that post speaks for itself.

 

People have a right to like or dislike anything they want to. That doesn't make them a whiner.

 

southdeltan