How Far Will You Go To Log A Find?

[+4chin seeker]

SY3518 Benchmark

 

How Far will you go to log a find?

 

I noticed that all of the easily found benchmarks around Everett Washington have been logged.

I had tried to find some Benchmarks that had not been logged yet, but I was unsuccessful. Until, I ran across one located on top of a 100 year old 5 story Hospital. This is not something you can just walk up to. So I put my head to work and came up with a plan. . I had to contact the hospital facilities manager and tell him about the bench mark located on top of his building. He was surprised and had never heard of such a thing. Then I explained to him I was doing a research paper for college, and asked if I could get a look at the object in question. To make it more interesting, the NGS survey call this a elevated tank in 1927, then many years later reported that a tank never existed on the roof at all, it was a elevator shaft. I was interested by this, but the facilities manager was intrigued by this. The history behind this benchmark is interesting. A short time later I had a " First To Find", for a local Benchmark

[+Colorado Papa]

How Far will you go to log a find?

This is copied from a forum (100/100) from last year.

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While it's fun to play the numbers game, you have to always remember to keep it in perspective. A count of benchmarks found is in no way a good perspective of how interested or dedicated a hunter is. Too many extranious factors, like:

 

How much time do you have to spend hunting? Where do you live? Some parts of the country are loaded with benchmarks. Others are not.

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What a good comment! How much time is spent at a local library researching old maps for old railroads and roads that no longer exist? How about looking for BMs that were wiped out by floods?

 

I pride myself in not finding a BM. I would much rather confirm a BM was wiped out by a railroad being abandonded and all tracks and signals removed. Or a road being relocated. Or read about a flood. Unfortunately, no credit is given for NOT FINDs, but more time was spent at a library researching old documents than in the field.

 

The numbers don't really mean a thing. The question should really be about dedication and time spent for a location. Did it require doing research to determine where the river bed once was? What were the names and locations of the roads back when?

 

I've seen too many entries that say "Found as described" which is an easy "PLUS". See how many they find if the roads have been relocated, railroads have been abandonded, mountains have been moved.

 

It's a different world out there.

Have a question about TQ0699. I see you logged it as destroyed but it was found and pictured three months earlier. When did the flood happen?

Edited April 23, 2004 by Colorado Papa

[+4chin seeker]

Have a question about TQ0699. I see you logged it as destroyed but it was found and pictured three months earlier. When did the flood happen?

Well, that certainly is a different perspective you take to benchmark hunting. I don't think either of our perspectives are wrong? As you pointed out, there are a lot of factors in life that limit ones time.

 

My wife and I have both gone back to school full time. I am working on a 2nd Degree as Sep 11th has wiped out the Aerospace market, I need to diversify my education. We also have two children. We just don't have the time to do the research involved for hunting old benchmarks that don't exist. I have searched for plenty that I could not find nor has anyone else found. But I can't lay claim to researching them either.

 

When I retire, I would consider taking benchmark hunting to a higher level. As for now I can not. No matter what perspective a person may take on benchmark hunting, if that are joining in on the hunt. They must be having a good time. That is what it is all about.

 

As for your question about Benchmark TQ0699, that I has marked as destroyed. I don't recall the exact dated of the floods as we have had a couple in this area over the winter. It seems that both might have taken place after Christmas. The day that we searched for this benchmark was approximately 3 weeks after a flood. The store owner had also noticed the benchmark over the past years. He was able to point out exactly where it used to be. The location he gave was with in 30ft of the given coords for this benchmark.

 

I hope that satisfies your question.

[+gnbrotz]

Assuming the original mark was at the apex of the described glass pyramid, wouldn't the point used for reference now be "destroyed", since it is no longer observable/usable?

 

That being said, it's still a neat story! Thanks for sharing it.

[+4chin seeker]

Assuming the original mark was at the apex of the described glass pyramid, wouldn't the point used for reference now be "destroyed", since it is no longer observable/usable?

 

That being said, it's still a neat story! Thanks for sharing it.

Well, you have a excellent point. Being new to benchmark hunting, I had net even considered that benchmark could be technically missing do to the replacement of the flat pyramid structure. I just assumed that it was the elevator shaft it's self. So do you or anyone else think this should be logged as destroyed rather than found? There is now a exhaust vent that could serve as a benchmark, I guess. I suppose that NGS would have to make that call. Speaking of NGS, do they look at or use the logs that we report at all? Thanks for the info guys!

[mloser]

You have to read the description carefully, and in the case of an existing structure there is almost always a point on top that is the station. Flat roofs do no good because they have no single point to mark from. If the pyramid is gone, you can submit a picture to NGS and they will determine if it is destroyed.

As for NGS reading our postings, some of the staff looks at this forum, but they don't look at the benchmarks we find and don't find. I would recommend going to the NGS datasheet page at http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/cgi-bin/datasheet.prl and using the recovery section to note your recovery. They are very quick at updating the descriptions and I get a big kick out of seeing my initials on a recovery, especially one that was previously not found and I located.

As for research, that is a major part of my enjoyment of this hobby. I want to find the stations that are harder to locate, and when the time comes I won't hesitate to request access to special areas. I have already asked and received permission to access prohibited locations of a local military site, dug holes 2 feet deep, poked with a steel rod, and the list goes on and on. The key is that I ASK PERMISSION, and don't just expect people to understand what I am looking for or doing. I have never been turned down. Gotten some strange looks, yes, but denied, no!

One of my biggest research tools is USA Photo Maps, which I pour over in detail before heading out into the field. Looking over an aerial photo will often give clues to old roads, houses, fences, fields, etc, that can help you when you get to a location. I have found a few benchmarks that were 'not found' along roads that had been moved. The marks were along the old road or roadbed and still existed but the last person to look didn't know the road had shifted. The aerial photograph made the difference!

[mloser]

By the way, based on your picture I would submit that station as destroyed. Follow the directions on the NGS site in my last post. Basically you email pictures to Deb Brown and she makes the determination. The mark has a convoluted enough history that I don't think anyone really knows what the original mark was anyway!

[+4chin seeker]

By the way, based on your picture I would submit that station as destroyed. Follow the directions on the NGS site in my last post. Basically you email pictures to Deb Brown and she makes the determination. The mark has a convoluted enough history that I don't think anyone really knows what the original mark was anyway!

Alright, I E-mailed Deb Brown the photo and all the details that I thought she would need to make a determination as to the fate of this benchmark.

 

You know, this conversation/topic really went 180 degrees from the direction that I thought it would go. That is alright, I have learned a few things along the way. That is what this is all about, learning and having fun in the process.

[ckhd]

Back on topic...

 

I believe in quality over quantity. That's why I primarily look for ones that are previously "not found", or have been last reported in 1970 or earlier. I like to find the ones that are along abandoned highways and railways.

 

I can spot benchmarks while driving 65mph down the highway. There are literally about 50 Arizona Dept of Transportation benchmarks between my workplace and my home (some are even in the NGS database), and about 4 NGS benchmarks that I can see while driving past. What challenge is that?

[+4chin seeker]

Nothing back from NGS yet.

[+gnbrotz]

...So do you...think this should be logged as destroyed rather than found?

Yes. That is how I would personally log it both here and with the NGS. I see you have already submitted it to Deb Brown for her input, and based on her previous comments here, I expect her to concur. I also believe that there are quite a few regulars here who would also agree with this, and since they haven't chimed in yet, I'll mention a few of them by name: embra, Black Dog Trackers, RogBarn, happycycler.

 

I think I know enough about these folks from these forums, and from actually meeting/knowing some of them to speak for them on this issue. Further more, if they do disagree with me, I know they won't be bashful about making that known and slapping me back in line!

 

There are those of us (myself included) who believe that properly documenting a destroyed mark is much more work than recovering most marks. You have obviously spent some time on this mark and while it's a shame it won't help your "numbers", I admire the work you put into it. It's nice to see this kind of effort, especially from a "newbie". Keep up the good work!

[mloser]

You won't hear back from her... at least I don't think I did the time I submitted a mark that was destroyed. You WILL be able to look the station up on the NGS database in a couple of weeks and see that it is destroyed however.

 

I am not sure how others feel, but I really like to see my submissions on the NGS database. The best are those that were previously marked 'Not Found' and are now found. I also take special effort to redescribe marks so that they are easy to find. Many stations benefit from simple additions to the description--naming the road, making sure a nearby power pole number is correct, new measurements, etc.

 

Gnbrotz, I hope you are starting to consider me a non-newbie! I have been doing this for only 2 months so far but have over 100 finds, and think I take it seriously enough to be one of the gang.

[2oldfarts (the rockhounders)]

Most of the ones we have found have been close to the road.

 

The furthest we have hiked has been just over a mile one way (and no trails to the mark.) About 10% have been about 1/4 mile or so, one way.

 

We try to find marks placed in the 1930's and earlier.

 

Good hunting,

 

John

[+gnbrotz]

Gnbrotz, I hope you are starting to consider me a non-newbie! I have been doing this for only 2 months so far but have over 100 finds, and think I take it seriously enough to be one of the gang.

mloser, I don't consider you a newbie, and only used the term with 4chin seekes since he applied it to himself.

 

However, I don't feel that I've absorbed your input here enough to speak for you.

 

Admittedly, I have been less active in benchmarking lately, so my own posts haven't had much "interaction" with yours. I will say though, that I do find your posts well thought out and helpful, and your "stats" certainly speak for themselves!

 

Also, as it applies to this topic, you had already offered a similar opinion.

 

Welcome to the gang!

[+GEO*Trailblazer 1]

Greg drove 1500 miles or more to log some here a little while back,

I drove from SW Missouri to Plymouth Mass. to log one.

 

Well thre was more than 1..

[mloser]

Thanks Greg,

I appreciate your appreciation. I always wanted to find a benchmark when I was younger but I wasn't aware there were descriptions for them, and sometimes went looking armed only with a USGS map. Since the margin for error on those maps is large I never succeeded.

 

With spring and daylight savings time here I have been out hunting quite a bit, often heading out after work to grab a mark or two and using my daughter's soccer practice time to search. I have embraced benchmarking with my usual intensity, learning as much as I can about benchmarks and their uses. I haven't met any other benchmarkers yet but I imagine I will at some point. There are a few in my area and I have corresponded with one.

 

As for my postings here, I don't know nearly as much as many of the forum users, especially those who were surveyors. I am just a hobbyist, so I tend to give advice only about what I know and what I have done, which is search for and report benchmarks. I think I have been pretty successful because of my enjoyment of the research process, so that is what I tend to share.

 

As for my search criteria, I agree with everyone who has posted here about what they look for...

CKHD, I agree with quality over quantity. The not founds are the best! 2oldfarts, my favorites also are the older marks (but there aren't too many real old ones around here. 1942 is a old in my area). BUT, I am also trying to find every mark in each USGS quad, so I am somewhat methodical about my searches sometimes. I tend to set out trying to find all the marks along a route, or in an easy-to-drive area, marking them on my map and on each description sheet as I find or not-find them. I usually go with a specific not-found mark as my main goal, and pick up whatever other marks I can on the way there or back.

 

Matt

[mloser]

And oh yeah, I went from Pennsylvania to Seattle to get a few. Ok, it was a business trip, but I DID drag 3 coworkers along on the hunt. So I think I deserve a little credit for distance... or persistence... or making my coworkers question my sanity.

[+GEO*Trailblazer 1]

No matter it wus fun huh!

 

Everywhere I go on a trip now a days I search out the area of travel and see what is along the way.

[2oldfarts (the rockhounders)]

mloser, try searching by designation "1925" state of Pa. I don't know how close they will be, but they are from 1925.

 

Good hunting,

 

John

[+4chin seeker]

 

There are those of us (myself included) who believe that properly documenting a destroyed mark is much more work than recovering most marks. You have obviously spent some time on this mark and while it's a shame it won't help your "numbers", I admire the work you put into it. It's nice to see this kind of effort, especially from a "newbie". Keep up the good work!

Thanks for the pat on my back. I did do some research on the benchmark, however not nearly as much as some of the hardcore gang on here. I do enjoy a good hunt non the less. I think I may just start looking for the ones that have not been found yet. You guys just may have converted me.

[+4chin seeker]

And oh yeah, I went from Pennsylvania to Seattle to get a few. Ok, it was a business trip, but I DID drag 3 coworkers along on the hunt. So I think I deserve a little credit for distance... or persistence... or making my coworkers question my sanity.

If you come to Seattle again.... Shoot me a E mail and maybe we can hunt a Benchmark together. I can lear a few trick from you, and maybe show you some local sights.

[+gnbrotz]

...I think I deserve a little credit for...making my coworkers question my sanity.

AHA! The true mark of a serious benchmark hunter. Don't try to fight it.

[+4chin seeker]

They are very quick at updating the descriptions and I get a big kick out of seeing my initials on a recovery, especially one that was previously not found and I located.

It looks like NGS had updated the Benchmark as Destroyed and has added all kinds on data to the Benchmark page. I have no idea what this data means. Anyone have a Idea? Further more, I don't see my initials anywhere . Did I get jipped or will my initials show up in time?Benchmark SY3518

[+gnbrotz]

I just checked the datasheet on the NGS site and the last entry I see is from 1999. In my experience, it can take up to 30 day for a new report to be added, though I have seen it in as short as a week.

 

Where did you look that you saw it changed to "Destroyed" status?

[+4chin seeker]

I just checked the datasheet on the NGS site and the last entry I see is from 1999.  In my experience, it can take up to 30 day for a new report to be added, though I have seen it in as short as a week.

 

Where did you look that you saw it changed to "Destroyed" status?

 

When I looked at the list of bench marks on the GC site, this benchmarks is listed as destroyed and also at the bottom of the benchmark web page a WHOLE lLOT of new data is listed. Below the 1990 entry even. It is dated 04/26/04.

 

I was just wondering

Edited April 27, 2004 by 4chin seeker

[+Colorado Papa]

It looks like NGS had updated the Benchmark as Destroyed and has added all kinds on data to the Benchmark page.  I have no idea   what this data means.  Anyone have a Idea?  Further more, I don't see my initials anywhere . Did I get jipped or will my initials show up in time?Benchmark SY3518

If you are looking at Benchmark SY3518, you are looking at the wrong page. The updates there are only your own input. Below is the page at NGS. I don't see where they have updated it. I do not think this is destroyed since it refers to THE STATION IS THE CENTER OF WATER TANK ON ROOF OF GENERAL HOSPITAL and not a ball or point or whatever. Also, the wording SY3518 HISTORY - 1927 FIRST OBSERVED CGS and THIS IS AN INTERSECTION STATION indicates to me that it was seen from the ground at another location and was used only as a landmark such as a watertower or windmill.

 

***********************************************************************

SY3518 DESIGNATION - EVERETT GENERAL HOSPITAL ELEV SHAFT

SY3518 PID - SY3518

SY3518 STATE/COUNTY- WA/SNOHOMISH

SY3518 USGS QUAD - EVERETT (1973)

SY3518

SY3518 *CURRENT SURVEY CONTROL

SY3518 ___________________________________________________________________

SY3518* NAD 83(1991)- 47 59 58.72543(N) 122 12 27.20382(W) ADJUSTED

SY3518* NAVD 88 -

SY3518 ___________________________________________________________________

SY3518 LAPLACE CORR- 4.41 (seconds) DEFLEC99

SY3518 GEOID HEIGHT- -23.32 (meters) GEOID03

SY3518

SY3518 HORZ ORDER - THIRD

SY3518

SY3518.The horizontal coordinates were established by classical geodetic methods

SY3518.and adjusted by the National Geodetic Survey in December 1991.

SY3518

SY3518

SY3518.The Laplace correction was computed from DEFLEC99 derived deflections.

SY3518

SY3518.The geoid height was determined by GEOID03.

SY3518

SY3518; North East Units Scale Factor Converg.

SY3518;SPC WA N - 112,058.184 397,458.554 MT 0.99994438 -1 01 23.3

SY3518;UTM 10 - 5,316,564.670 559,112.923 MT 0.99964294 +0 35 20.1

SY3518

SY3518 SUPERSEDED SURVEY CONTROL

SY3518

SY3518 NAD 83(1986)- 47 59 58.72239(N) 122 12 27.20321(W) AD( ) 4

SY3518 NAD 27 - 47 59 59.38000(N) 122 12 22.70000(W) AD( ) 3

SY3518

SY3518.Superseded values are not recommended for survey control.

SY3518.NGS no longer adjusts projects to the NAD 27 or NGVD 29 datums.

SY3518.See file dsdata.txt to determine how the superseded data were derived.

SY3518

SY3518_U.S. NATIONAL GRID SPATIAL ADDRESS: 10TEU5911316565(NAD 83)

SY3518_MARKER: 53 = ELEVATED TANK

SY3518

SY3518 HISTORY - Date Condition Report By

SY3518 HISTORY - 1927 FIRST OBSERVED CGS

SY3518 HISTORY - 1954 MARK NOT FOUND CGS

SY3518 HISTORY - 1960 GOOD CGS

SY3518 HISTORY - 1968 GOOD CGS

SY3518 HISTORY - 1983 GOOD USPSQD

SY3518 HISTORY - 19990228 GOOD USPSQD

SY3518

SY3518 STATION DESCRIPTION

SY3518

SY3518'DESCRIBED BY COAST AND GEODETIC SURVEY 1927 (GCJ)

SY3518'STATION IS THE CENTER OF WATER TANK ON ROOF OF GENERAL HOSPITAL.

SY3518'THIS IS AN INTERSECTION STATION.

SY3518

SY3518 STATION RECOVERY (1954)

SY3518

SY3518'RECOVERY NOTE BY COAST AND GEODETIC SURVEY 1954 (FN)

SY3518'THERE IS NO TANK ON THE ROOF OF THE GENERAL HOSPITAL IN EVERETT.

SY3518'INSPECTION OF THE ROOF AND ASSERTIONS OF VETERAN HOSPITAL OFFICIALS

SY3518'INDICATE THERE NEVER WAS A TANK ON THE ROOF. HOWEVER, THE TOP OF

SY3518'THE ELEVATOR SHAFT IS A LOW, SQUARE BRICK STRUCTURE WITH A FLAT,

SY3518'PYRAMIDAL GLASS ROOF, AND WAS PROBABLY ERRONEOUSLY IDENTIFIED AS A

SY3518'TANK. THIS WAS NOT VERIFIED BY TRIANGULATION.

SY3518

SY3518 STATION RECOVERY (1960)

SY3518

SY3518'RECOVERY NOTE BY COAST AND GEODETIC SURVEY 1960 (LGT)

SY3518'THE HOSPITAL ENGINEER STATES THAT THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A WATER TANK

SY3518'ON THE HOSPITAL ROOF. AS MENTIONED BY F.N. IN 1954, THE TOP OF THE

SY3518'ELEVATOR SHAFT MAY HAVE BEEN MISTAKEN FOR A WATER TANK. THIS IS

SY3518'THE EVERETT GENERAL HOSPITAL AND HAS NO CONNECTION WITH A VETERANS

SY3518'HOSPITAL WITH WHOSE OFFICIALS F.N. MADE CONTACT IN 1954.

SY3518

SY3518 STATION RECOVERY (1968)

SY3518

SY3518'RECOVERY NOTE BY COAST AND GEODETIC SURVEY 1968 (NET)

SY3518'THE RECOVERY NOTES PRETTY WELL ESTABLISH THE FACT THAT THIS

SY3518'POSITION APPLIES TO THE TOP OF THE ELEVATOR SHAFT ON THE GENERAL

SY3518'HOSPITAL IN THE NORTHWESTERN PART OF EVERETT.

SY3518

SY3518 STATION RECOVERY (1983)

SY3518

SY3518'RECOVERY NOTE BY US POWER SQUADRON 1983 (JEA)

SY3518'STATION RECOVERED AS LAST DESCRIBED BY N.E.T. IN 1968. STATION IS

SY3518'TOP OF ELEVATOR SHAFT ON GENERAL HOSPITAL.

SY3518

SY3518 STATION RECOVERY (1999)

SY3518

SY3518'RECOVERY NOTE BY US POWER SQUADRON 1999

SY3518'RECOVERED IN GOOD CONDITION.

Edited April 27, 2004 by Colorado Papa

[+Colorado Papa]

When I looked at the list of bench marks on the GC site, this benchmarks is listed as destroyed and also at the bottom of the benchmark web page a WHOLE lLOT of new data is listed. Below the 1990 entry even.  It is dated 04/26/04.

 

I was just wondering 

OK, I see what you are talking about on the GC site. Looks like a new bug has popped up. This "extra" data is showing up at the bottom of all benchmark pages. I agree that I've never seen all this extraneous data before. Go to the bottom of JK1366 as another example.

Request Details

Session Id: gx1jdknmykz03prffu1gqm45 Request Type: GET

Time of Request: 4/27/2004 7:54:01 AM Status Code: 200

Request Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) Response Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8)

Trace Information

Category Message From First(s) From Last(s)

etc...

etc...

etc...

Edited April 27, 2004 by Colorado Papa

[+4chin seeker]

I do not think this is destroyed since it refers to THE STATION IS THE CENTER OF WATER TANK ON ROOF OF GENERAL HOSPITAL and not a ball or point or whatever. Also, the wording SY3518 HISTORY - 1927 FIRST OBSERVED CGS and THIS IS AN INTERSECTION STATION indicates to me that it was seen from the ground at another location and was used only as a landmark such as a watertower or windmill.

 

This elevator shaft that has been mistaken for a water tower is about 20 feet wide and 30 feet tall. If I were going to use it as a point of reference I would look for the center of the shaft as well. When the tower/shaft used to have a pyramid ( triangle ) shaped roof, It makes sense that the center of the shaft/tower would be located at the highest point of the pyramid ( triangle ). This way the benchmark could be use/viewed from 360 degrees around. As opposed to only using the cent of one side of the shaft, that would only allow you to see the benchmark from one direction.

 

Again I am just a neeeeeewBeeeee and maybe surveyors have some rules that do not follow everyday line of thought on this subject. That is just my .02 cents worth I must sat I am getting more and more interested with each post.

 

Or am I just not understanding the idea/use of this tower?

[+4chin seeker]

Still no new updat on the Benchmark []