Ftf Or Not

[+strikeforce1]

I placed a simple 3 stage multi-cache last July with intent to activate it with some others. Unfortunately, I didn't finish placing the other legs. A cacher found the final cache without a starting point. My Q: A) should I give him FTF , and post a note once activated that it was already found. Give him a FTF and once activated give the next cacher a 1st FTF, or give the 2nd a 2nd FTF. I thought I saw in some thread where this happened before. Give me your Thoughts / Advice Thanks SF1

[+New England n00b]

Hmmm, well if it was listed on the site, I guess fairness would say FTF. If it was NOT listed, then I'd say - "who wire-tapped may phone?"

[+fly46]

I agree..

Why was it found early? Cause you put your last leg too close to another cache/leg of a cache and he just happened across it?

How could this person find it without the first legs?

 

If the cache was showing on the site, then he found it, plain and simple... But if he stubbed his toe on it while walking through the woods, it doesn't count.

[+strikeforce1]

This might help. I placed the final ( 50 cal. can ) and was working the stages up to a starting point ( 3 micro in all ) . Before I finished the set up ( late in Dec. ) , he was in the area looking for a place to set his own cache up in. He came across mine and logged in as a find. At the time I placed the final cache there were no other caches in teh area at all. He emailed me, that he found the cache but couldn't find a listing on GC. I am going to activate it this week. Q : Should he get FTF for finding the final cache without doing the other stages as well, or should I give it to the first finder once activated. Hope this helps.

Edited April 13, 2004 by strikeforce1

[ghOzt]

In my opinion, let him log it on the cache page the moment the cache is activated. He'll probably have an interesting tale to tell. FTF honors shouldn't be important enough to other cachers that they'll protest his find. (But then again, I've been surprised by this bunch before. )

[+briansnat]

As a cache owner myself, how do I "give" a finder a FTF? Is there some sort of medal I'm supposed to be handing out? I always thought that the first person to sign the logbook is the FTF. I never realized I actually had the power to designate who gets the FTF.

Edited April 13, 2004 by briansnat

[WH]

In my book a find is a find. However its done. if someone finds the cache and signs the logbook , then it counts.

[+carleenp]

My vote is yes, he is FTF.

[+stu_and_sarah]

My vote is yes, he is FTF.

Yes. A very lucky one!

 

Stu

[+Criminal]

As I was scanning down the replies I was thinking exactly what Briansnat said. How do you give someone something that really doesn't exist? If you don't "give" it to him, what are you going to do if he claims FTF. You would have to kill him. You don't want to do that do you?

Edited April 13, 2004 by Criminal

[+Geo Ho]

Your the cache owner . . . it's up to your discretion . . . how generous do you feel?

 

or

 

Happy caching and stuff!

[+flask]

i have one cache where the whole point of it is for the finder to GO ON THE JOURNEY. finding the final stage only doesn't count. for other multis, if they can hop stages and get lucky, i give it to them.

 

FF is kind of another thing though. people get fussy about it. i guess if you're in oklahoma it ought to count. otherwis, it's iffy.

[+WhipArtist]

I recently ran into another cacher while hunting for something, and he said, "I just placed this, but it's not listed yet. You could score a FTF."

 

It was later pointed out to me by others that logging the FTF before the cache was listed was poor form, since others didn't have an equal opportunity to find it. I altered my log to declare it not-an-official-FTF for that reason.

[+Renegade Knight]

Thats is the best FTF I've heard of. Finding it before it's listed!

[+Cool Librarian]

Thats is the best FTF I've heard of. Finding it before it's listed!

Happens quite "frequently" here.

[+The Treasurer]

I recently had a FTF on a cache a full 48 hours before it was approved. I took advantage of the fact that Travel Bugs placed in an as of yet unapproved cache, will show up on the state caching page.

 

A little triangulation and a lot of searching when you get to the area will help to find the cache. That is assuming that the owner has placed three TB's in the cache.

 

And I still consider it a FTF.

 

I let my subscription lapse, but I'm also working on finding a Member's Only Cache the same way. I know I won't get credit for it on the website, but I can say I found it.

Edited April 14, 2004 by The Treasurer

[+Renegade Knight]

Thats is the best FTF I've heard of. Finding it before it's listed!

Happens quite "frequently" here.

I was meaning the unassisted variety...

[+Cool Librarian]

If you mean "unassisted" as in no help, hints, or heads up from a person, then so was I.

[+SeventhSon]

You got an FTFBA (First To Find Before Approval)

 

One of my bugs was placed in a new cache, and I got the email notification of its move before the cache was approved. The email had the cords of the cache. I decided to wait, but got the FTF anyway.

 

7

[+TeamJiffy]

Actually, I believe the cache owner has to allow this as a find.

 

Does the following text sound familiar to anyone...?

 

"Congratulations, you've found it! Intentionally or not! ... If possible, let us know that you found it, by visiting the website listed below...."

 

Congratulations, the cache finder found it! Unintentionally!

 

They get to declare a find. They weren't cheating; they stumbled onto it. And just like any geomuggle who stumbles onto the cache has a right to log it as their first find, this other cacher, stumbling across it, has the right to log a find as well. They found it - fair and square - unintentionally, but fair and square.

 

-Jif

[4x4van]

Well, yeah, he was FTF for the final cache, but isn't the point of a multi to find all of the legs? You couldn't log a find (FTF or otherwise) for a multi if you only found the first leg or two, but not the final, could you? Then how is this so different? Let him find the other 2 legs before claiming the FTF, I say.

 

Although that does ignore the fact that the log book in the final has already been signed. Hmmmmm...maybe give him a FTSA (First To Stumble Across)?

Edited April 14, 2004 by 4x4van

[+Cool Librarian]

I guess the difference is that the log book is in the final.

I think if you can figure out where the final is without hitting all of the stages, then good for you. If you sign the log, I think it's a find.

Yes, most multi owners want you to find ALL of the stages. And some hunters want to find ALL of the stages so that they can have the full experience....

 

I only have one multi, and it's only a two stage, but since the final also contains a letterbox, if someone thinks about it, they can get to the final following the directions from the letterbox website. I don't care how they find it, as long as they log in and take a good book!

[MOCKBA]

You couldn't log a find (FTF or otherwise) for a multi if you only found the first leg or two, but not the final, could you?

But you certainly can log it if you found a final w/o finding some of the earlier steps. It probably takes a bit more faith and mental effort to skip a step, but isn't it what caching is about? Just recently I logged an FTF by skipping two out of four steps. It is kind of related to puzzle caching (just like triangulation by TB records described earlier in this thread), and it is fun.

Edited April 14, 2004 by MOCKBA

[+TeamJiffy]

I've already stated my view that the finder has to be allowed to claim this as a find.

 

I'll just speak for my situation: In February, 2003, my wife and I build a Geocaching model of the Solar System across Northern California. If you find all nine planets, you will have the information you will need to find a tenth "bonus" cache that represents a comet.

 

Everyone has to drive at least 200 miles round trip to get these coordinates. But, if someone, for whatever reason, stumbled across our comet cache without finding even one of our planets, I would allow them the find. In this case, they found it unintentionally, but they did find it and sign the log book. So, I must allow their find. That's the rule.

 

Even though a person is supposed to find all nine planets first, they don't have to. Note that if I knew someone cheated, and got the comet cache coordinates from someone else, then I would delete the find as unfair, because they've intentionally violated the entire spirit of the thing. A chance finder is just that - they haven't intentionally violated the cache.

 

Note: If there was a clever way for people to figure out the location with just the information from 7 or 8 planets, I'd allow that too...

 

To me, it's all about the spirit behind the find.

 

Jif

Edited April 14, 2004 by TeamJiffy

[+Planet]

The cacher found it first, he/she is FTF, regardless of anything. That's my opinion. You can't change that fact, the log book is signed, so be it.

[+RJFerret]

The owner's perception doesn't alter the facts. The finder knows he found it. The logbook was blank so he was first.

 

How are you going to alter his memory or record of history???

 

That said, the owner has the power to delete an online log or tear a page out of the book and then delude himself... However the initial person still would have claimed the FTF prize. To maintain the delusion I suppose the owner could send another FTF prize to the next finder...

 

Sounds like an aweful lot of trouble just to maintain a delusion.

 

Yeesh!

 

On a less serious note, last winter I FTF a cache I anticipated by traingulation, reason, and brute force (search an entire trail for track in the snow). Although I could have skipped the initial stage, I opted to do it. Found it a couple days before it came online and the first online loggers had a surprise 'cause I hadn't gotten to log it online as of then. C'est la vie! Still one of my most proud finds given all the extra work and effort I put into it.

 

I could have skipped the first part and simply hunted for tracks along the final (as I had an expectation) but felt that would be cheesy. I also left a commensurate 2nd finder's prize--something fairly common around here.

 

Don't stress or micromanage--it's a HOBBY after all, treat it as recreation and have FUN!

 

Enjoy,

 

Randy

[martmann]

Yup, the cache has been found, and the first one to find it, found it first.

[+Cache Viking]

Sounds like a find to me. Then again it is your Cache if you are posting that you must find all to get find on final then you make the rules.

[+Cool Librarian]

well said, MM!

Edited April 15, 2004 by cool_librarian

[+BuckyD]

I'd say "be happy that someone found it". Imagine putting a cache out there and waiting months for anyone to come along, let alone someone to stumble upon it and sign the log.

 

It's only a game, after all, and FTF isn't even a part of the geocaching.som stats -- yet.

 

FTF aside, in an urban environment during my 4 months of caching I've noticed more than a couple incidents of muggles stumbling on caches and writing "what the *-#* is this?!? --Wolf (or some other strange name)" in the log and putting it right back where it was. I'd say they could log the find if they wanted to... They found it.

 

As the geocaching sheet in almost every cache says "intentionally or not"...

 

*Just my 2-pence*

[+shunra]

This might help. I placed the final ( 50 cal. can ) and was working the stages up to a starting point ( 3 micro in all ) . Before I finished the set up ( late in Dec. ) , he was in the area looking for a place to set his own cache up in. He came across mine and logged in as a find. At the time I placed the final cache there were no other caches in teh area at all. He emailed me, that he found the cache but couldn't find a listing on GC. I am going to activate it this week. Q : Should he get FTF  for finding the final cache without doing the other stages as well, or should I give it to the first finder once activated. Hope this helps.

If you have a problem with allowing him to log his find as an FTF on your cache, you could always do the following:

 

- Activate the cache, and let him log his FTF;

- Archive it;

- Go to the cache, remove the first page from the log book or replace the book, but leave everythign else as is;

- Submit a new cache listing for exactly the same location, same box, same description.

 

This will leave everyone happy. You'll allow someone else to claim an FTF on your "new" cache, and he will have his FTF anyway, PLUS the ability to log your new cache again

Edited April 15, 2004 by Shunra

[martmann]

This might help. I placed the final ( 50 cal. can ) and was working the stages up to a starting point ( 3 micro in all ) . Before I finished the set up ( late in Dec. ) , he was in the area looking for a place to set his own cache up in. He came across mine and logged in as a find. At the time I placed the final cache there were no other caches in teh area at all. He emailed me, that he found the cache but couldn't find a listing on GC. I am going to activate it this week. Q : Should he get FTF  for finding the final cache without doing the other stages as well, or should I give it to the first finder once activated. Hope this helps.

If you have a problem with allowing him to log his find as an FTF on your cache, you could always do the following:

 

- Activate the cache, and let him log his FTF;

- Archive it;

- Go to the cache, remove the first page from the log book or replace the book, but leave everythign else as is;

- Submit a new cache listing for exactly the same location, same box, same description.

 

This will leave everyone happy. You'll allow someone else to claim an FTF on your "new" cache, and he will have his FTF anyway, PLUS the ability to log your new cache again

What if the same person was FTF again, that'd be funny.

[+shunra]

Duplicate deleted - sorry...

Edited April 15, 2004 by Shunra

[+shunra]

If you have a problem with allowing him to log his find as an FTF on your cache, you could always do the following:

 

- Activate the cache, and let him log his FTF;

- Archive it;

- Go to the cache, remove the first page from the log book or replace the book, but leave everythign else as is;

- Submit a new cache listing for exactly the same location, same box, same description.

 

This will leave everyone happy. You'll allow someone else to claim an FTF on your  "new" cache, and he will have his FTF anyway, PLUS the ability to log your new cache again

What if the same person was FTF again, that'd be funny.

Funny perhaps, but legitimate even in the opinion of the hider. After all, the finder would still need to come back and be the first to sign the log sheet.

[+Confucius' Cat]

You couldn't log a find (FTF or otherwise) for a multi if you only found the first leg or two, but not the final, could you?

But you certainly can log it if you found a final w/o finding some of the earlier steps. It probably takes a bit more faith and mental effort to skip a step, but isn't it what caching is about? Just recently I logged an FTF by skipping two out of four steps. It is kind of related to puzzle caching (just like triangulation by TB records described earlier in this thread), and it is fun.

I agree. If a cache is placed as a "puzzle" or a multicache, and I am able to work the puzzle in an alternative manner, it certainly should count as a find.

 

If I stumble across a cache, I've found it.

 

I oftentimes look around in likely places just on the off chance that I might stumble on one. To me that would be a really neat find. If and when I do find one that way, I will sign the log and log the find.

 

If I know there is a new cache in an area but I don't have the coords, I will look around in that area if I am there unplanned. One of these days I will get lucky.

 

If you did not hide it and you discovered its location then you have found it. If you are the first to do so, you have an FTF. Simple, no-brainer.

 

Now if the hider told you where to look before the cache was listed and you logged it first, that would be cheating. If you have no unfair knowledge of it the find is legitimate.

 

I also would consider it bad form to actually hunt for (not stumble over) a cache and find it before it is listed based on "inside" information. Look what happened to Martha Stewart. Shamey! Shamey!

[+Torry]

I do much of my caching while on lunch breaks ( or other breaks, or just goofing off) and rarely have time to mess with multis. I have done a few or attempted a few and if I can skip the intermediary parts of the tour I will.

 

Give the guy his FTF and congratulate him on his good fortune.

 

It's only a game, dagnabbit!

[mishapman]

I agree. An honest find is a find.

 

One can place a cache before it is approved. Anyone can find it before it is listed. First finders keepers.

[+Team Lyons]

Geezzz...........This is just a game. In the grand scheme of things this means nothing. Who cares....

[martmann]

Geezzz...........This is just a game. In the grand scheme of things this means nothing. Who cares....

What an informative and invaluable post!

[Major Catastrophe]

Geezzz...........This is just a game. In the grand scheme of things this means nothing.  Who cares....

What an informative and invaluable post!

(To say nothing of, exactly correct.)

 

IMO, either give the guy his FTF and make a friend, or pick up the whole thing and move it somewhere else. And maybe make an enemy. Life's too short...

[RandMan]

Since the cache hasn't been submitted for activation yet, simply move the cache to another location, change logbooks, update the information in the other stages, and start new! This way your problem will be taken care of because now you can honestly say that when the individual accidently found the cache, it wasn't ready! It would be the same as if I found a new, unsubmitted cache on the drivers seat of the car of a fellow cacher before he/she has a chance to place it. I wouldn't be able to log it until it was officially placed!

 

Rand (RandMan)

[AZcachemeister]

Or you could stalk a suspect cacher, follow them into the desert> mountains> woods. And pounce on the cache as soon as they left the area!