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The Truth About "stats"


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As of today there are no universal leaderboards. There are opt in leaderboads for some local groups and on Keenpeople. Most people who want to opt out of stats are really thinking of opting out of the leaderboard which is a moot point since it doesn’t exist anymore.

 

Here is the deal. Some people want to be semi-ghosts. No stats, but online logs. No cache placed counts but caches posted for people to find. How do you manage that? I like being able to look at peoples finds. Sometimes it’s out of curiosity. Sometimes it’s just to see if a local I know of has been busy. Sometimes it’s how to find an archived cache. This really isn’t stats. Sometimes I like to read the logs on a cache I found hard or interesting, or one that just seems to inspire funny logs. I like checking in on my friends logs every now and then. I like tracking down a trade every now and then, it can motivate me to find a cache sooner than I would have. Plus I like looking at the caches a player has hidden and checking the logs or taking a look at the layout of the cache pages. It’s all information. Good information. It’s not wrong or broken.

 

The bottom line is if you sign up, if you log online, if you log in the cache owners log book, if you list a cache you are opting in to anything that uses that information that this site and a few other sites present. Buxley’s maps would not be possible without having the use of this information. The nearest cache page would not be possible without having the use of this information. You can’t even look for a cache to find without the use of this information.

 

The entire stats argument isn’t one about “Stats” it’s all about how the information that is absolutely needed to play this game is presented. Nothing more. Consider, if everyone played as a ghost there would be no logs, no cache listings, no stats, and no information The only way to find a cache is if you knew a friend who’s brothers cousin twice removed heard a rumor that the guy at the DMV had found a new cache who might be willing to share the information if you can find him a date. Opting out is not feasible. If everyone did it, there is no game to play. Ghosts are nothing more than parasites who depend on the health of their host to play the game their way. No host, no information, no game. Not even for ghosts.

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Let not mix using statistical information and tying that information to an individual. While I have no problems the stats pages, I do so some people's privacy point. The real issue is de-coupling the stats utilized to construct the site from individuals. While I don't see how this could be easily done it is in fact a different issue.

 

I think for many its not the stats themselves but the fact that the stats page makes it "too easy"

 

Most of the information for making an Atomic Weapon are open sourced and fairly easy to find. All of these different sources apart are not a security risk. Put them together on a website called "How to make The Bomb" and now you might draw someones attention.

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I think for many its not the stats themselves but the fact that the stats page makes it "too easy" 

:) make what too easy??

(invade the privacy of someone taking part in a public activaty, done openly on the internet, and written and talked about in newsprint and TV often?)

Edited by welch
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Consider, if everyone played as a ghost there would be no logs, no cache listings, no stats, and no information

And if everyone with an account brought up this topic once a year, the server would crash under the load.

 

Personally. I don't care that the information I submit makes stats possible. What I do care about are people using the stats as a baseball bat to beat up cachers who "Don't have enough finds/hides/whatever".

 

I want to go look for a cache, find an interesting place along the way, and have a good time. That's it. And I don't need stats to do that. So while they can be found with a bit of data mining, I see them as a giant pain in the neck with no real benefit.

Edited by bons
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I disagree, RK. You can play and not have stats.

 

This RASH could easily function without compiling any totals. Instead of logs, it's just feedback. Instead of breaking out each type of log, you only show a list of a cacher's last 50 log entries. You can still get a feel of the person's recent activity without knowing they've been caching for the past x years and have x finds. Owners can still get their feedback about their caches and future finders can still get a feel of the past finders' experiences.

 

Stats are not needed for this RASH to function. In fact, I've come to realize that stats are a cause for more ills than the good it provides in the form in which they are available today.

 

[Edited for clarity]

Edited by CoyoteRed
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The "truth" about stats is that they are useless, they are used in illogical ways, they indicate nothing more than a summary total, and often do not indicate true numbers.

 

Let's take those one at a time.

 

"Useless" -- Unless I choose to update online on THIS site my figures bear no resemblance to actual finds/hides. I've found more than my counts show and I've hidden more than my counts show. So for you to determine ANYTHING from my stats would be pointless.

 

"Illogical" -- Looking at your stats I see that you rarely find anything with a terrain over 2.5. I might deduce that you are a lazy cacher, going only for the easy ones. But the truth may be that you live in a very flat area. Without doing much more research I have no way of knowing which is the truth.

 

A new cacher might have few finds but years of experience using GPS to find things. Military users come quickly to mind. Their accuracy is often measured in lives saved or lost (instead of tupperware). Looking at his/her 'stats' would give no indication of this.

 

"Summary only" -- Again, without doing research I have no way of knowing that all of your caches are urban caches. Therefore, how am I to rate your opinions on seeking mountainous caches? Just looking at your 'stats' would give me the wrong impression. Yet those are the types of impressions I see people making with 'stats'.

 

There are a dozen more valid arguments against stats. They've been listed many times so I won't repeat them.

 

I will say that you are making a HUGE jump by saying that the opting in/out of stats would be the demise of geocaching.

 

(I can see everyone quickly jumping to look at my stats to see if my points are valid. Is the validity of my points really related to my find count?)

Edited by geospotter
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"Illogical" -- Looking at your stats I see that you rarely find anything with a terrain over 2.5. I might deduce that you are a lazy cacher, going only for the easy ones. But the truth may be that you live in a very flat area. Without doing much more research I have no way of knowing which is the truth.

 

(I can see everyone quickly jumping to look at my stats to see if my points are valid. Is the validity of my points really related to my find count?)

No, I didn't go look at your stats.

 

I went to look at mine to see if I was a lazy cacher... :)

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(I can see everyone quickly jumping to look at my stats to see if my points are valid.  Is the validity of my points really related to my find count?)

I didn't. I'm really not interested. Sorry. :)

 

So the stats are useless? Not for me. I enjoy numbers, how illogical and summary-only they might be. I'd like a similar leaderboard like Dan had. Then, it would be cool to have some less competitive numbers, like breakdowns by country/state, caches per capita, caches per square area, similar stats that they have in SETI@home site.

 

Opting out? By all means. Just make it in a way that opt-outs stay in the leaderboard, just anonymous. Better yet, make the anonymity a default, and those who want to show their names, can do so in their account preferences. No one should be unhappy then. If you don't like to see stats, you don't have to go there, and the bad stats people can't even see your position on the list. Neat! :)

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What I do care about are people using the stats as a baseball bat to beat up cachers who "Don't have enough finds/hides/whatever".

C'mon, is this really a problem? I know it's happened, but at least in the most such cases I've seen everyone else has noticed that the bat swinger is being a jerk, not the one with too few finds/hides/whatever. This is not a high school.

 

Besides, if you really want to be a jerk and bash someone basing on their hides/finds, you can go see their profile page anyway and get your baseball bat there.

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I think you're missing the point. It's not just about a stats site. It's about comparitive stats altogether. It's the numbers lust some use to prove their worth. We're talking no totals in any form anywhere. The RASH can function very well without the ability to see another's totals.

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So the stats are useless? Not for me. I enjoy numbers, how illogical and summary-only they might be. I'd like a similar leaderboard like Dan had. Then, it would be cool to have some less competitive numbers, like breakdowns by country/state, caches per capita, caches per square area, similar stats that they have in SETI@home site.

 

Opting out? By all means. Just make it in a way that opt-outs stay in the leaderboard, just anonymous. Better yet, make the anonymity a default, and those who want to show their names, can do so in their account preferences. No one should be unhappy then. If you don't like to see stats, you don't have to go there, and the bad stats people can't even see your position on the list. Neat! :)

What he said. :)

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So, in other words, even if you don't want to participate in one aspect of an activity, even if you think that aspect of the activity is counterproductive and cause certain undesirable results, tough nuts?

Read it again, that's not what he said. If you didn't want to participate in the "numbers lust", then you would have an option on your profile not to. Then your name and numbers would be hidden from everyone. It wouldn't be on a leaderboard, it wouldn't show on your profile page, and the numbers wouldn't show on your cache logs. I think that this would be the best option.

 

Are you saying this wouldn't work for you because your concerned about others lusting after numbers? You play your game and I'll play mine. There are a great many people who want to see stats. Unfortunately for us, there are a few VERY vocal people who don't want to see them, and don't want to have any sort of number associated with their name.

 

As an aside, if stats do get implemented so that people can opt-out of their stats being shown, I think it should also be setup so that they can no longer view other's stats. I mean, you wouldn't want to be hypocritical would you?

 

--RuffRidr

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I probably should be quoting more as I was refering to Carleen's ditto of Divine's post. I believe he was advocating a leaderboard where everyone participated, but had the option of being anonymous.

 

The problem with even just some playing for numbers is that the effects of stats spill over into the "real" caching world as outlined in another thread.

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yay another seti user.. umm but anyway! I enjoy looking at the stats of people in my area seeing what they've found and checking the logs. It gives me an idea of what to expect on my local level when Im looking into doing a cache. The actual numbers mean little to me. But it is a way to "connect" w/ some of the people in my area that i've not met. Gee Team Pez did these 3 caches w/in a few days of me kinda thing. (only name I could think of at the moment) What was there expierence..

 

However I do know one person that is completely against having his numbers posted. I told him he could always log notes instead of "finds". That is what he now does and he's happy w/ that. He still contributes online but has defeated the "im a number" feeling he used to have.

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I probably should be quoting more as I was refering to Carleen's ditto of Divine's post. I believe he was advocating a leaderboard where everyone participated, but had the option of being anonymous.

 

The problem with even just some playing for numbers is that the effects of stats spill over into the "real" caching world as outlined in another thread.

I guess I don't see stats as equating to playing for numbers. I simply find them interesting. But what can I say? I'm a fantasy sports nut who follows all kinds of wierd stats there, many of which don't have much real meaning in terms of the game. I also am the curious type who likes information. So I just simply enjoy seeing stats. I liked the annonymous suggestion as a middle ground. In reality I don't care all that much one way or the other but liked Divine's comments on the topic.

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This is now the 5th thread you have started about Stats in the past 30 days. Are you going to keep asking the same questions and posting the same opinions in different ways until you get the answer you're looking for?

By my count this is the second variation of this angle. This topic is about not confusing information for a leaderboard.

 

This is about the 5th time you have resembled the people you alude to when you complain about people in the forums who don't post anything with content that is worth your time. Do you have an angle on stats vs information that would contribute to this topic?

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Hmmm, I've only had a chance to glance at the thread so I may be missing something (*shock* :D ).

 

If I understand right, some do not want a leaderboard AT ALL. WHile I do not wish to participate, I see no reason why those who choose to should not be allowed. They'll have to live without ME in the ranking, but tough. My not wanting to share MY stats with the world should have no impact on those who want to share/compare THEIR stats... Just leave me to play my game in relative obscurity and you can play yours in relative open-ness. I'm fine with that...

 

edited for missing words, funky space bar

Edited by New England n00b
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I do far more lurking than posting, and in my observation I rarely see people being attacked for having low #s of finds / hides / etc. What I do see is the occasional person with 5 finds under their belt in the Getting Started boards asking how thier cache should be rated. They are usually advised to wait until they get a few more finds... No attacks, just constructive advice. I'm sure there are exceptions, but I don't see this as a regular problem.

 

The leaderboard issue really boggles my mind. I think it's interesting to see where I stand in the area / country / world (at 49 finds, I'm pretty much at the BOTTOM!). But if I didn't like stats, I would just avoid logging in to sites like KeenPeople, and be done with it. I'd love to see GC.com add a leaderboard by region and overall, and I love the idea of allowing people to opt for anonymity... I'd even like to see FTF stats be added to the site. But stats should be counted and available.

 

Stats are a part of geocaching. A few people not participating in them has little overall impact other than noise in the data stream, but I agree with an earlier post - if large numbers of folks didn't participate in them it would impact far more than themselves. My observation is that the statistics are not "in your face" - you need to look for them. So if they bother someone, why were they looking at the stats? Just log your finds and don't look at KeenPeople, or the stats tab in people's profiles.

 

[edit for spelling]

Edited by javamutt
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It's obvious that I'm not making myself clear.

 

There is more to the issue than the numbers of finds one has. The finder is only part of the equation. The other part is the cache the finder finds.

 

Look, I like looking at the numbers as well. However, because there are some that feel a need to increase their finds to establish status they sacrifice quality game play. This means they aren't as discreet or thoughtful with the cache itself. It's all about grabbing a find and moving on. IMHO, the cache is your primary responsibility. You should be thoughtful of the person who put the cache out and those who are to come behind you. Compromise the cache and you do a disservice to the cache owner, the cachers that have already found the cache, those that have yet to find the cache, and the sport itself.

 

As many have said, caching is not a competition, but many try to make it so. Sure, mostly it's friendly competition, but there are a few who will compete at all costs and be damned about the consequences. It only takes one cacher blowing through an area in effort to rack up a number of finds who is indiscreet or leaves caches in plain view to decimate a cache population.

 

Many here have publicly said that the numbers get them out the door. Do numbers make them take risks with the cache? I'm not saying that everyone who is driven by numbers will compromise a cache, but I am saying that too many do. It's obvious that it does.

 

With all that said, because some cachers are driven by numbers and some of those are driven to the point of compromising the caches found, and an officially santioned stats page/leaderboard will drive many into an even more fierce competition, I feel the harm outweighs the good by a large margin.

 

From my standpoint it's not about privacy or not wanting to compete with others, it's about the caches I've placed and the caches I've enjoyed. I don't want competition to destroy that.

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My guess is that those who feel competetive about numbers would feel that way and keep their own numbers if no stats were available. Just like birders (where some are competetive about numbers and others are not), they would have their lists and share them with others. We don't have a leaderboard, but it is not hard to find out who the top people are. I think if a person is likely to compromise a cache either in placing or hiding in a race to increase numbers, they likely would have the personality to do that whether or not formal stats exist. Basically I don't know that the situation is happening to the extent that it would make it worthwhile to get rid of stats or avoid further stats, and I'm not sure that those actions would have any effect on it anyway.

 

Anyway, I do hope that those who feel competetive about stats are taking care of the caches and being responsible. I guess I haven't ran across that as a problem in my area.

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Basically I don't know that the situation is happening to the extent that it would make it worthwhile to get rid of stats or avoid further stats, and I'm not sure that those actions would have any effect on it anyway.

Then it's obvious that you have not been privately emailed detailing the activities of a certain cacher.

 

Add to that the discussion a while back about cache machines and marathon guided cache tours and you have examples of destructive competitiveness.

 

Not trying to get into a discussion on cache machines or guided cache tours here, only presenting them as examples of the negative side of stats.

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I like stats. I have fairly respectable numbers. Numbers do not equal respect ( I feel a semantics war coming on). As a high number cacher who runs with other high number cachers I can say positively that we do not run any more risk of compromising a cache than anyone else, unless you are thinking statisitcally, since we do more caches our chance of getting caught would naturally be higher. Actually, we probably are less likely to compromise a cache. We have experience on our side. We are very aware of muggles, we are very discreeet at caches, we have a fairly elaborate set of plans for dealing with muggles in an area to make sure that the cache location is not compromised. We always make sure the cache is hidden back the way we found it. I want the next person who hunts the cache to have just as much difficulty finding it as I did. I think that ity is far more likely that a new cacher would cause the cache to be compromised, perhaps you should propose banning newbies (for the good of the sport, of course). Just because you run hard does not mean you are irresponsible. Just because you find alot of caches does not mean you are missing out on some part of the sport. I see the same waterfalls and stop to take pictures of wildflowers along the trail. If a spot is particularly nice we stop and check it out, if it is not interesting we keep moving to the next one. The only difference I have found between us and some of the more relaxed cachers I know is, we get up early, stay out late and cache all day on the weekends. We also try to pick up what we can during the week. We travel nearly every weekend to cache, and keep the same schedule when we are on the road. Why? We love to Geocache. This is what we do for fun.

 

That said, the stats do not create competition, and even without a leaderboard you will have competition. Human nature drives us to achieve. Everyone has their own view of what that achievement is. i find this entire discussion to be a little ludicrous. Would anyone give any credence to a discussion that everyone should drive a blue golf cart and wear brown jumpsuits? In effect, this is the same thing. People judge you everyday based on things as stupid as what kind of car you drive, and how nice your clothes are. The blue golf cart and jumpsuit model would fix that, right? The only thing to do is to move on play the game (or life) by your understanding of the rules at your own pace, always keeping in mind that you understanding of the rules is not necessarily correct and is certainly not the only one.

 

It would be a shame if the very vocal few were to get their way on this issue. Stats are like money, they are not the point of the game they are just a way of keeping score. It is not a game that anyone is going to win, but there is nothing wrong with seeing how you are doing according to your understanding of how the game is played.

 

BTW I am all for the opt-for-anonymity idea, however, that should be a binding decision. If you want to opt out of the stats portion of the game, you should not be able to opt back in at a later date. If this is not included, it will just become another wrinkle in the caching for position on the leaderboard game. A kind of high-tech sandbagging.

 

I hope that at some point the forums can be more about playing the game and less about how you think other people should play the game.

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Some stats serve a purpose, some don't. Most don't. I see the argument that stats should be visible because others like to read the posts, see the issues, see where they stand, etc. I've said it before and I still think that each user should have the option of hiding his/her stats from prying eyes. My stats are my business, not yours.

 

I log all events, virtuals, locationless, that I do or find. It's rather tough to score a virtual or locationless without a log, and folks saw me at the events. Regular caches, however, are another story. I only occasionally, at my whim, post an online log for standard caches. Otherwise I don't post an online log or note if the cache is just fine and active; I just sign the log book. If there are issues with the cache, I email the owner. I'll post a DNF for some caches I've given up on, otherwise it's anyone's guess what my numbers are.

 

Don't like it? Ah, well.

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Stats are a part of geocaching. A few people not participating in them has little overall impact other than noise in the data stream, but I agree with an earlier post - if large numbers of folks didn't participate in them it would impact far more than themselves.

Exactly!

 

The system is FINE just the way it is. I believe a sound majority of geocachers prefer the statistics to be displayed exactly as they are right now.

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It would be a shame if the very vocal few were to get their way on this issue. Stats are like money, they are not the point of the game they are just a way of keeping score. It is not a game that anyone is going to win, but there is nothing wrong with seeing how you are doing according to your understanding of how the game is played.

Exactly! (again)

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Wah! Wah! Wah!

 

Renegade Knight is sensitive. My five year old daughter found all of his difficult caches and didn't log the visits. Boo hoo! Shame on her! If you don't want so called "ghost visitors" then don't post coordinates on the internet. I'm with ckhd on this one. I'll do it my way if you don't like it then do whatever it is you need to make it so my 5 year old can't simply follow the arrow and arrive at the destination. If this game is so serious then where are the high stakes? Who are the winners and who are the losers? All the stats show is how much of a life you really don't have. Sensi!!

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RK I completly agree. Stats to me are probably the second best part of this game next to the finds. I often read the online logs of caches I have found... often when out in the field I don't get to look at the log book as much as I'd like... so I read the logs online. Almost daily I searched the closest caches in my area just to look at recent visits and I follow the caching activities of many of my fellow cachers, and they follow mine.

 

Without the online logs I doubt I would participate in geocaching like I do. Anyone who doesn't log online is taking an essential part of the game away. As a cache owner the feedback is all the reward you get (besides seeing the cache degrade), as a cache finder the logs are a great source of information and humor.

 

When I see another cacher's find count I have a good idea of how serious they are and how much experience they have. And I will be the first to admit that when I read in the forums I often check the find counts of people and I will disregard some comments of those who have few or no finds. Notice I said comments and not opinions (I always consider opinions before I disregard them)

 

Here is a small list of cache problems I associate to those who do not log caches:

Stolen/traded ammo cans

Missing travel bugs

Stolen trade items or replaced with junk

Moved caches

 

we all know that these things happen and are not logged. While some can be associated with muggles the rest has to be done with someone with a GPS and knowlege of the game. So when I meet cachers who do not log (I have, twice) I instantly do not trust them like I would someone with a username and history.

 

I could say more but I should really get back to work

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... I can say positively that we do not run any more risk of compromising a cache ...

That's not what I've heard. I hope you're not party to the events I've been made privy to.

 

Look, it seems I'm the only one dumb enough to stand up against some negative elements in the world of caching. Others have spoken up only to be shouted down or bullied by a few supporters of, or in, this group. Seeing this, and the fact these same individuals having the status of "respectible numbers," I can see why many will keep their comments to themselves. I'm not the only "very vocal few." I get private support so I know there are others out there that feel the same way. So, I'll speak up even though it might not be the smartest thing to do.

 

I will concern myself with how others will play the game, thank you, when they put my caches at risk or attempt to cheat on one of my caches. There is no compromise. I will not back down. Charisma does not trump ethics. Intimidation will not work.

 

(I particularly like "always keeping in mind that you understanding of the rules is not necessarily correct and is certainly not the only one." Sure, I can buy that if you're saying that you can claim a Found It on a missing cache and log it as a virt. If that's your rule, then you're not playing by the same rules as the rest of us.)

 

Now that we've established that let's move on. I will repeat that in this very forum folks have mentioned that stats have motivated them to cache. They see others gaining, so they cache more. To say "stats do not create competition" is not true. People have admitted it!

 

Stats do create competition. Competition, in turn, can lead to lack of focus on cache integrity. That is not something I want to be part of. Nor is it something I want my caches to be part of. I don't want anyone to hunt my cache just because it's there. I don't want it to be just another number. I want it to mean something.

 

Is that wrong? If so, how is it wrong? Why is anyone wanting to force me to be part of this competition? Is it a case of "Tough nuts. If you don't like it, take your ball and go home?"

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Wah! Wah! Wah!

 

Renegade Knight is sensitive. My five year old daughter found all of his difficult caches and didn't log the visits. Boo hoo! Shame on her! If you don't want so called "ghost visitors" then don't post coordinates on the internet. I'm with ckhd on this one. I'll do it my way if you don't like it then do whatever it is you need to make it so my 5 year old can't simply follow the arrow and arrive at the destination. If this game is so serious then where are the high stakes? Who are the winners and who are the losers? All the stats show is how much of a life you really don't have. Sensi!!

was this kind of personal attack really necessary?

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I like stats....

Brad:

As you know, you and I have disagreed on some issues (one in particular about the "cache quality" in your area), but I hope you share with me that our disagreement has been "OK" because it's been a respectful difference of opinion...we haven't gotten "personal" with it. It's OK to "agree to disagree".

 

Having said that, I'm posting to let you know that I pretty much agree 100% with your post on this thread. I will also add/amplify the following:

 

I can state with absolute certainty from personal experience that while having 1000+ Finds does not necessarily earn "respect", it most certainly does earn a recognition of EXPERIENCE when you state an opinion about our great game. When I started "power caching" that was certainly not my intent...I just love the game, the new and interesting places it takes me, and the satisfaction of "solving the problem" each time. However, since I travel to many different parts of the country for my job, and since I cache after work whenever I can, I pretty much without fail get personal contact from cachers in each area who are glad to see a "big number" cacher making the rounds in their area. Although it's never been my intent for that to be the case, it's a fact: The Stats Do Matter.

 

(I also have enough humility and enough lack-of-superiority-complex to publicly post when I've been outfoxed by hiders and other searchers who are smarter than I am. Case in point: http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...&log=y&decrypt= (see April 2, April 1, and March 30 logs)).

 

And again as has been stated elsewhere in this thread, this doesn't mean that lower-number cachers are any less worthy of respect or that their opinions don't matter...of course they are worthy and of course the opinions matter. It just means that to many people, EXPERIENCE, as quickly illustrated by Find numbers (whether on "hard" caches, "easy" caches, or some combination), ALSO matters.

 

What's wrong with that?

-Dave R. in Biloxi

Edited by drat19
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Stats do create competition. Competition, in turn, can lead to lack of focus on cache integrity. That is not something I want to be part of. Nor is it something I want my caches to be part of. I don't want anyone to hunt my cache just because it's there. I don't want it to be just another number. I want it to mean something.

 

Is that wrong? If so, how is it wrong? Why is anyone wanting to force me to be part of this competition? Is it a case of "Tough nuts. If you don't like it, take your ball and go home?"

Maybe some people jeapordize caches by being in a hurry to go from cache to cache, but there are a lot of other dangers too. Newer geocachers not realizing to hide it like they found it. Cachers who feel the cache was hidden too much, so they leave it more open. Muggles, too many to count. I go for the numbers sometimes, but I make sure to hide it the way I found it, and I'm sure a lot of other feel that way too. Stats may creat competition, but not everyone is competitive about stats, but like to keep track of their numbers too. If you don't want people too see your stats, fine, you should have that right. I don't think anyone is forcing you to cache differently.

 

One thing you can't control is what people can find your caches or not. People cache for different reasons, not just the way YOU want them to hunt. If they find your caches for the numbers, that's their business. The only way to prevevnt them is by making the cache harder to find or make it into a multi. But if you don't want people to force you to cache in a certain way, don't expect everyone to cache the way you do.

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Wah! Wah! Wah!

 

Renegade Knight is sensitive. My five year old daughter found all of his difficult caches and didn't log the visits. Boo hoo! Shame on her! If you don't want so called "ghost visitors" then don't post coordinates on the internet. I'm with ckhd on this one. I'll do it my way if you don't like it then do whatever it is you need to make it so my 5 year old can't simply follow the arrow and arrive at the destination. If this game is so serious then where are the high stakes? Who are the winners and who are the losers? All the stats show is how much of a life you really don't have. Sensi!!

Well, well, well.

 

Where do I even begin? Your five year old daughter is a big part of what this game is about. When I said to the family "Hey lets go find a cache" my kids later thanked me for finding a hobby everyone could enjoy. They don't log, but I do, and I don't force them.

 

Your entire rant was wasted because you didn't take time to think. You just don't seem to grasp there is a bigger picture of which this topic was one small piece and kids like yours and mine who like geocaching are another.

 

I don't lose sleep over ghosts, stats, or much of anything that is said in these forums. The contrast in opinons is enjoyable, the make me think and every now and then I learn something that causes me to change my mind. Start worrying about setting a better example for your 5 year old. If she ever places a cache you can bet that she will enjoy reading the comments and that is part of the point of this entire topic and why opting out isn't a good thing.

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I don't lose sleep over ghosts, stats, or much of anything that is said in these forums. The contrast in opinons is enjoyable, the make me think and every now and then I learn something that causes me to change my mind. Start worrying about setting a better example for your 5 year old. If she ever places a cache you can bet that she will enjoy reading the comments and that is part of the point of this entire topic and why opting out isn't a good thing.

As is usually the case, I'm with you, RK. I wish that poster had stated his/her difference of opinion constructively and respectfully, instead of making it a personal attack. "It's OK to respectfully agree to disagree".

 

-Dave R.

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OK, for some stupid reason I thought you were saying

 

Not mostly, but significant enough to warrant thorough dialog on this subject.

 

I think most of the "ignorance-based" issued could be easily dealt with through education. Stuff like pay attention to where you found the cache so you can put it back, watch for muggles before retrieving or replacing, move away from hiding spot before signing in, all can be dealt with by making it TOMA (Top Of the Mind Awareness). This is stuff that is not pushed here enough that many people miss it.

Edited by CoyoteRed
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I don't lose sleep over ghosts, stats, or much of anything that is said in these forums.  The contrast in opinons is enjoyable, the make me think and every now and then I learn something that causes me to  change my mind.  Start worrying about setting a better example for your 5 year old.  If she ever places a cache you can bet that she will enjoy reading the comments and that is part of the point of this entire topic and why opting out isn't a good thing.

As is usually the case, I'm with you, RK. I wish that poster had stated his/her difference of opinion constructively and respectfully, instead of making it a personal attack. "It's OK to respectfully agree to disagree".

 

-Dave R.

Yes. A debate is fine. Not just fine, it is good! But if this thread starts becoming about personal grudges or a desire to post personal attacks, then I don't want much to do with it. What is amusing is that I don't actually have all that strong of feelings about the stats issues, but I find the topic interesting. :D

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Well said Drat 19. We are on the same page on this one.

 

Now on to the ever popular Coyote Red...

 

Did you read my post? You seem to have a gift for taking things out of context. My statement that stats do not create competition was followed by the statement that human nature does. Art does not create the desire to draw, it is a byproduct of that desire. One could just as easily say that bad news is caused by reporters. The only way you know something is happpening is is you see it or if it is reported to you. Let's not blame the commision of an act on the reporting of it. I notice you didn't respond to the whole blue golf cart jumpsuit ananlogy that was supposed to explain this to you. You state competition can lead to a lack of focus on cache integrity. I agree with you it can, but it does not necessarily. A splinter can lead to gangrene and the loss of a limb, perhaps we should outlaw wood.

 

Why do you feel forced to compete? When you drive down the street do you feel like everyone else is forcing you to race them. You keep saying that you don't want to be forced to take part in this competition. The way I see it, you are the only one trying to force other people to follow his opinion here. I am just giving a different point of view.

 

While we are discussing it, I find this an interesting piece of reverse discrimination. You seem to be saying that people with high numbers are always bullying others, keeping their opinions "shouted down". Do you feel that power cachers opinions are somehow less valid than your own. (btw you could make a clever argument showing the dangers of stats using this).

 

I know you are feeling a little paranoid right now, and i can't speak for everyone, but I am not trying to intimidate you and i have not seen anyone else do anything like that today, No one is talking about cheating your caches. Stats are not an ethical question, how you get them are an ethical issue and I am not quite sure how charisma plays into this.

 

You made a cryptic statement at the beginning of your post, that you hope i am not party to events you are privy to. What are you trying to say? My nose is clean and I resent your implied accusation. I realize that you are still angry over our discussion on the MTGC.org message boards regarding your trolling for opencaching.com. But you might want to re-evaluate things, do not be angry with me because your arguments did not stand up to scrutiny. And while we are on the subject of your pettiness, you might want to quit using your CCCooperAgency story as an analogy for cheating. There are people who read the boards who know both sides of it and your version makes you look like a real a**. If you are going to use the didn't find the cache logged it as a virt story, it would only be fair to tell everyone that she asked you if ti was OK and when you said no, she deleted the log herself. Your responses to her in that matter were as petty and childish as your arguments were over opencaching.com and as your statments here have been.

 

It is a shame that your geocide did not take, but your geocide note was a lovely piece of prose. You certainly were passionate when you told everyone that you were never coming back. May we assume that your level of p[assion on this issue is the same. If so, we'll see you on the other side of the argument in a couple of weeks. I guess you just couldn't go through the day without trolling for an argument. I am glad that you have a forum to express your opinion on, I just wish you would take a little more time and thought when forming those opinions.

 

By the way, if you want to push yourself as a champion of truth, you have to tell it sometimes.

 

 

A special note for the moderator of this forum:

While I do not consider the expositiomn of fact to be a personal attack, to make it easier when deciding on whether or not this post conatins personal attacks, just for the record. I think that Coyote Red is a micro-managing (removed by moderator), whose utopian views regarding geocaching hide a deeper desire for fascist control of this sport. I also think he makes illogical arguments only because he does not have the forethought to work them out in advance. On top of that his momma dresses him funny.

Edited by mtn-man
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My personal attack is an answer to the innuendo of CoyoteRed's post. I see that while I was responding the thread has taken a turn back to reasoned discussion which I welcome. I apologize to the viewers of this thread for my flippant reply. i do not however apologize for my statements or take them back. Except for the one about his momma dressing him funny, I have no basis in fact for making that statement, so CR I do apologize for that.

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