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NYS DEC Policy on Setting Caches in Public Lands


LakeGeoBen

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Hey now that your done kicking the once sleeping dog at the DEC how about poking the Parks people.  I bet they will come up with a permit that costs $50.

PLEASE GET OFF YOUR DARN COMPUTER, go out and find a cache!

Try reading the forums a bit before responding. If you did you would realize the dog apparently woke up on his own and now we are trying to deal with it. In fact, I responded in a similar fashion but if you read Keystone's response early in the thread you'll see this situation most likely was not brought on by a particular cacher.

I did read this forum, this is some of what I read.

 

OK. I just called my regions permit department. They never heard of geocaching (no surprise there) and they never heard of a Temporary Revocable Permit.

 

I brought up geocaching, and he hadnt heard of it...then I described it, and he thought it sounded vaguely familiar. I asked what he thought about it being done on DEC land, and he said it would most probably NOT fly on Wildlife Management Areas, and it would most likely be left up to each specific Ranger to decide if it would be allowed in each specific Forest area in their Region.....

He suggested I contact one of the two Rangers for the Region and discuss it directly with them.....

 

also have an email out to NYS Parks to clarify their policies. There's a link to their maps here

 

I'll be following them up with certified mail this week

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Personally, I think we would want to avoid $25 and liability insurance as the standard we set for NY State. We don't want that to be the case study that falls into the hands of everyone else. Next we will be buying permits, and specified containers from them.

 

One of the CITO Events in the Albany area I believe, were told they they would have to get insurance to hold there clean up event, and that insurance would start at $300. That was just to clean up! Can you imagine what would happen once that was the blanket policy for everyone? Geocaching would grind to halt, except for the Grandfathered caches.

 

A pro active approach is a great one to take, however 50 angry, unprepared cachers calling up there local DEC office (or state park, or whoever) does not make us look like the most organized bunch of people! We do all need to work together.

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A pro active approach is a great one to take, however 50 angry, unprepared cachers calling up there local DEC office (or state park, or whoever) does not make us look like the most organized bunch of people! We do all need to work together.

Ok...so let's work together...

 

What should we do...talking about working together is a start, but that seems to be all that's happening here and at the NYGO site...

 

I would like to do something, what should it be?

 

I think that getting a clear picture of the NYS DEC policy on geocaching is a good first step...there have been a number of significantly different secondhand assessments of DEC policy on this and the NYGO site, but they cannot all be correct, they differ too much.

 

Depending on what the actual policy is, then drafting a letter to send to our NYS representatives to suggest an alternative approach (assuming that the DEC is taking an approach that is geocaching unfriendly) would be the next logical step.

 

Such a letter should contain the DEC's issues with geocaching and our counters to those issues. It should also contain reference to the way that other states have dealt with geocaching and cache placements. It should be a carefully crafter document that geocachers in NY can get behind, and then send en masse to their representatives.

 

just my thoughts,

 

NFA - Jamie

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Hey now that your done kicking the once sleeping dog at the DEC how about poking the Parks people.  I bet they will come up with a permit that costs $50.

PLEASE GET OFF YOUR DARN COMPUTER, go out and find a cache!

Try reading the forums a bit before responding. If you did you would realize the dog apparently woke up on his own and now we are trying to deal with it. In fact, I responded in a similar fashion but if you read Keystone's response early in the thread you'll see this situation most likely was not brought on by a particular cacher.

I did read this forum, this is some of what I read.

 

OK. I just called my regions permit department. They never heard of geocaching (no surprise there) and they never heard of a Temporary Revocable Permit.

 

I brought up geocaching, and he hadnt heard of it...then I described it, and he thought it sounded vaguely familiar. I asked what he thought about it being done on DEC land, and he said it would most probably NOT fly on Wildlife Management Areas, and it would most likely be left up to each specific Ranger to decide if it would be allowed in each specific Forest area in their Region.....

He suggested I contact one of the two Rangers for the Region and discuss it directly with them.....

 

also have an email out to NYS Parks to clarify their policies. There's a link to their maps here

 

I'll be following them up with certified mail this week

Those quotes from several different people in several different regions.

 

Try this:

 

Briansnat: Is this permit system new and when was it passed?

 

Me: I have a feeling it was "passed" when they got that letter.

 

Keystone: Please don't fault LakeGeoBen for initiating contact with this land manager. From the response received, it's quite obvious that NYDEC had heard of geocaching prior to receiving this inquiry. I don't know the details but I'd be surprised if the whole policy was developed as a result of LakeGeoBen's cache. If he asked about a traditional cache, why would the response address virtual caches? All that LakeGeoBen did was to do what the cache listing guidelines strongly recommend: to obtain permission for a cache placement. If NYGO had wanted to make the contact, then they should have done so.

 

Believe me ROCKY I understand your frustration which I think is evident. At this point there IS a state wide policy in place even if all the regions don't know about yet. My first reaction was to keep hiding caches in DEC lands and just not mention it on the cache page and just try to stay under the radar. Eventually it will make geocaching look bad once the DEC catches up with itself. The way I see it we have someone in Albany, (Mr. Messenger) who seems very reasonable and the thing to do now is work with him, not against him.

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Such a letter should contain the DEC's issues with geocaching and our counters to those issues.

 

Be careful when mentioning the DEC's issues. The mear mention of such issues, even if they are unfounded, may actually lend credibility to them. Simple explain the what geocaching is, family friendly, environmentally friendly etc... If and when the DEC expresses it's concern/issues we should have examples of caches that have been in place for years, the amount of visitors and proof that the caches had no adverse effects.

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Such a letter should contain the DEC's issues with geocaching and our counters to those issues.

 

Be careful when mentioning the DEC's issues. The mear mention of such issues, even if they are unfounded, may actually lend credibility to them. Simple explain the what geocaching is, family friendly, environmentally friendly etc... If and when the DEC expresses it's concern/issues we should have examples of caches that have been in place for years, the amount of visitors and proof that the caches had no adverse effects.

Hi,

 

After reading your response, I agree with you, we shouldn't open with a defnsive posture, we should simply try to acquaint the reader with the benefits and upsides of geocaching.

 

Thanks,

 

NFA - Jamie

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In fact, I responded in a similar fashion but if you read Keystone's response early in the thread you'll see this situation most likely was not brought on by a particular cacher.

 

Actually, I think it might have been LakeGeoBen who first kicked the dog.

Well then in that case, &%$*^%(*&(&)( !!!$#%*)(*&$!!! At any rate the dog is awake so now we have to deal with it.

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Hello,

 

I just spoke with Tom Martin, the DEC Region 5 head ranger and permitting guru, and the news wasn't good. He told me in no uncertain terms that "No physical Geocaches may be placed on State Forest Preserve Land inside the Adirondack or Catskill Parks".

 

He added that while his rangers are under orders to take any geocaches they find while out patrolling, they are not looking for them (and he said he knows that there are a couple of hundred in the 2 parks).

 

I find this depressing, as the language he used left no room for interpretation or wiggling.

 

It would seem that we need to start higher up the food chain...he said that this came from the state DEC office, so we should maybe look to our elected officials to remedy this problem.

 

NFA - Jamie

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Okay, I'm going to step up to the plate for this issue in NY...

 

Starting with the information in this thread, I will compile a list of all known DEC contacts that have been made and what information has been gathered about geocaching on DEC lands. I will also add to that list any related information folks want to send to this address (it will go to both OurWoods and myself at NYGO):

 

publicrelations@ny-geocaching.org

 

From the list I will put together a summary of what we know and what contacts we have to work with. From there we can put together an effort to meet with some DEC contacts, provide them information about geocaching, answer their questions, ask questions of our own, etc.

 

A face-to-face meeting focusing on the exchage if information is usually way better than a phone call or a letter -- you can show them an actual cache container and GPS unit, answer their questions right away, leave them a notebook of information, etc. That's what I did with the Town of Victor NY and it's working out extremely well so far. If possible we want to make friends with these people, not lock horns with them. That's why it's so important to find the right person to make contact with.

 

Here in NYGO we've had a lot of topics come up all at once with regard to land management issues: town, county, state parks, DEC, etc. We're looking to get more folks involved as the amount of activity picks up. I'll consult with OurWoods (NYGO PR Committee Chairperson) on getting more folks integrated into one coherent effort for state-wide issues such as the DEC, state parks, etc.

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I would agree that Geocaching will never receive official sanction unless Geocachers organize and demand redress from their elected representatives. I was involved in the fight to save the Catskill 3500 Club summit canisters and the DEC had determined that they had to be removed. The Catskill 3500 Club only has about 1500 dues paying members, but they are allied with much larger groups, such as the ADK, the AMC and the NY/NJ Trail Conference. The Adirondack 46ers had already caved in and removed the canisters from the Adirondack 4000' peaks, and they have several thousand dues paying members, but they tried to deal with the DEC as supplicants seeking permission, rather than as taxpayers demanding fair access to public lands.

 

The Catskill 3500 Club launched a mass mailing to our members urging a letter writing campaign in protest, and the DEC received almost 300 letters, which really got their attention. In addition, we obtained the services of Neil Woodworth, who lobbies on behalf of the Adirondack Mountain Club. He helped broker a memorandum of understanding with the DEC, whereby the DEC became the owners of the summit registers and the Catskill 3500 Club undertook to be caretakers for those registers, even though the club bought and installed the registers. The DEC stipulated that the canisters had to be painted brown, and that statistics on their use had to be forwarded to the DEC.

 

The lesson to be learned from this is that no matter how large your numbers, you will not be accorded any respect unless you organize and demonstrate the will and determination to flex your political muscle with your elected representatives. Once Geocachers display political clout, the authorities will become much more responsive, suddenly coming up with new interpretations of the regulations to accomodate a powerful interest group.

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In fact, I responded in a similar fashion but if you read Keystone's response early in the thread you'll see this situation most likely was not brought on by a particular cacher.

 

Actually, I think it might have been LakeGeoBen who first kicked the dog.

Well then in that case, &%$*^%(*&(&)( !!!$#%*)(*&$!!! At any rate the dog is awake so now we have to deal with it.

I'm pretty sure I pointed out much earlier in the thread, LakeGeoBen did not kick the DEC dog. They were well aware of geocaching, and actively removing them long before his letter. As a matter of fact, his letter was only asking verify what park rangers were already telling other geocachers.

This is just one example, dating back to July, 2001 GC87

 

Just like any large organization, not every person in the DEC knows everything that's going on. The people in charge of setting the DEC policy are aware of this thread, and the issues involved.

They are aware of how many land managers and even some of their own forest rangers feel geocaching is an acceptable low impact use of the parks system, not much different then hiking. They are already aware of the working policies in place in nearby states, and how many of those parks feel geocaching has had a positive effect, not a negative one.

 

Instead of a few dozen scattered angry letters and phone calls, I strongly suggest you work with your local geocaching groups to present a more unified front. I'd be more then willing to work with someone from each group to share our progress.

Edited by NJ Admin
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"No physical Geocaches may be placed on State Forest Preserve Land inside the Adirondack or Catskill Parks".

 

He added that while his rangers are under orders to take any geocaches they find while out patrolling, they are not looking for them (and he said he knows that there are a couple of hundred in the 2 parks).

 

The fact that caches aren't allowed in forest preserve lands has long been established. I'm not sure where he got the "couple of hundred" number. I know of 3 physical caches in the Catskills. 1 was placed with verbal permission from a ranger and the other two are "illegal". I can't speak to the exact number of caches in the Adirondacks, but I'm sure the numbers are not in the hundreds.

 

I don't think we'll ever get them to allow geocaching on forest preserve lands. You can see from Jonboy's note what they had to go through to preserve the Catskill summit registers, so I doubt geocaching will ever be accepted on these lands.

However a well organized campaign may work for the other DEC lands, such as state forests.

Edited by briansnat
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I would agree that Geocaching will never receive official sanction unless Geocachers organize and demand redress from their elected representatives.  I was involved in the fight to save the Catskill 3500 Club summit canisters and the DEC had determined that they had to be removed.  The Catskill 3500 Club only has about 1500 dues paying members, but they are allied with much larger groups, such as the ADK, the AMC and the NY/NJ Trail Conference.  The Adirondack 46ers had already caved in and removed the canisters from the Adirondack 4000' peaks, and they have several thousand dues paying members, but they tried to deal with the DEC as supplicants seeking permission, rather than as taxpayers demanding fair access to public lands.

We should definitely make some ties with the various hiking organizations around the state. There's a lot of cross-over between hikers and geocachers.

 

I've been working with the Victor Hiking Trails organization which has close ties to the highly respected Crescent hiking organziation in the neighboring town of Perinton. Both of these local hiking organizations have the full support of the their town counsils.

 

If geocaching organizations can get affilliated with or otherwise allied with such hiking organizations, it could work out well for all -- both get to have larger numbers because of the crossover.

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First. Lets establish a list of contact to send letters to. Ferreter5 is compiling a list of contacts for the DEC, I will come up with a list of political contacts.

 

Next question is should we have a form letter or should everyone come up with their own? I think a form letter would be better.

 

Do we all agree that NYGO will be the one organization we will get behind and represent?

 

Remember, caches have been banned only in the Adirondack and Catskill Parks. Other areas are allowed with permits. Let's assist the DEC in coming up with a mutually agreeable permit process instead of acting like we've already lost that battle. At the same time we need to work on permission for the Adirondack and Catskill Parks. To me those seem like two different issues.

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Next question is should we have a form letter or should everyone come up with their own? I think a form letter would be better.

 

Disagree. When politicians and bureaucrats get these Dear Senator _____ form letters, they don't carry as much weight as a real letters from real people. What we need is a list of possible talking points for us to include in our letters. We can decided what to include and put it in our own words.

 

Do we all agree that NYGO will be the one organization we will get behind and represent?

 

Sounds good to me.

Remember, caches have been banned only in the Adirondack and Catskill Parks. Other areas are allowed with permits. Let's assist the DEC in coming up with a mutually agreeable permit process instead of acting like we've already lost that battle. At the same time we need to work on permission for the Adirondack and Catskill Parks. To me those seem like two different issues.

 

Lets concentrate on a reasonable permit process for state forests. The forest preserves (Catskill and Adirondack) will probably be a losing battle and not worth the effort. They have a special status that is codified in NY's state constitution and their own rules. Lets focus our efforts where they might do some good.

Edited by briansnat
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I just got the geocaching application from DEC today. On it it says you must show proof of liability insurance with limits of 100,000/300,000 and that DEC and the state of NYY are listed as additional insured.

 

Also, get this, it also states that the Regional Land Manager may require a performance bond ! Bonds must be properly executed.

 

The 25.00 is what they call an inspection fee which is non-refundable if you are denied.

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I just got the geocaching application from DEC today. On it it says you must show proof of liability insurance with limits of 100,000/300,000 and that DEC and the state of NY are listed as additional insured.

 

Do we need liability insurance to hike and hunt on these lands?

Exactly.

 

And you're right about the form letters. I just want to make sure all the letters hit on the same points. Plus we don't want a disgruntled geocacher sending an incoherent rant that will do more harm than good.

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The Catskill 3500 Club does not have liability insurance, that is just a bureaucratic way of throwing up roadblocks. You have to go over their heads to the political appointees who head the DEC, they are much more sensitive to public opinion, their boss has to get re-elected. If you play their game and dance to their tune, you will always lose. You can pick up all the bags of trash you want, they will only laugh at your naivete. The issue of public rights to state resources is decided by political influence, by reminding public servants that they work for the public, not the other way around. The carrot of public service is commendable, but it has to be accompanied by the stick of political power.

 

The DEC is facing major budget cuts, and they need the protection of the constituents they serve to fend off the most draconian cuts. We must be better organized, not as a bunch of oddballs with weird nicknames, but as registered voters who speak up for their interests. We have to show we can either be a useful ally or a dangerous enemy.

 

We are a long way from being ready for this now. We first have to gain acceptance amongst the outdoor community as a whole, and this is far from the case now. Only once we have gained credence as a bone fide user group, with allies in the outdoor community, can we approach government policy makers with any hope of acceptance.

 

I think that individuals who want to agitate for geocaching before we have a unified, coherent and well thought out position, may only muddy the waters and harden the attitudes against us.

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Subject: Placing Geocaches on NYS DEC public lands

 

I have received the following policy from the Ranger for Region 7 regarding placing of caching in State forests:

 

From: David Forness dmfornes@gw.dec.state.ny.us

Date: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 11:45 AM

To: raybaker

Subject: Re: Request for information on "Temporary Revocable Permits"

 

Ray,

On a trial basis we are permitting individuals to place geocaches on

State Forests without requiring a permit. We think this is an excellent

form of forest based recreation and great use of State Forests. We do,

however, have two concerns associated with this activity. The first is

with the placement of the cache. We hope that none will be placed in

dangerous locations, like at the bottom of a cliff. The second is that

they are removed by the individual who places them when they have

outlived their usefulness. If these problems do not develop we will

continue with the approach of not requiring a permit in DEC Region 7.

The only other change might come about is if a Statewide policy is made

that would require a permit.

Thank you for your approach in this matter.

Dave

 

Dave Forness

Supervising Forester

NYS - DEC

1285 Fisher Avenue

Cortland, NY 13045

(607) 753 - 3095 ext. 224

dmfornes@gw.dec.state.ny.us

 

>>> "RAY BAKER" 04/17/04 07:11AM >>>

Dear Sir:

 

I have been referred to the NYSDEC Region 7 to inquire about obtaining

a "Temporary Revocable Permit" for the purpose of placing a Geocache in

the Jenksville State Forest, North of Newark Valley, Tioga County.

I would like general information or where to get the information on the

regulations, applications and procedures concerning Geocaching and

"Temporary Revocable Permits".

 

Geocaching: A hide and seek game where a person places a container

(usually ammo can [7x10x5 inches] or smaller) in a hidden location. The

coordinates are posted on www.Geocaching.com. Seekers find the container

and swap a small trinket, sign a logbook, and record the find on the

website. On the web site are the rules about containers, placement,

maintenance, etc.

 

I look forward to your response.

 

Sincerely,

Ray Baker

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I have received the following policy from the Ranger for Region 7 regarding placing of caching in State forests:

 

From: David Forness dmfornes@gw.dec.state.ny.us

Date: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 11:45 AM

To: raybaker

Subject: Re: Request for information on "Temporary Revocable Permits"

 

Ray,

On a trial basis we are permitting individuals to place geocaches on

State Forests without requiring a permit. We think this is an excellent

form of forest based recreation and great use of State Forests. We do,

however, have two concerns associated with this activity. The first is

with the placement of the cache. We hope that none will be placed in

dangerous locations, like at the bottom of a cliff. The second is that

they are removed by the individual who places them when they have

outlived their usefulness. If these problems do not develop we will

continue with the approach of not requiring a permit in DEC Region 7.

The only other change might come about is if a Statewide policy is made

that would require a permit.

Thank you for your approach in this matter.

Dave

 

Dave Forness

Supervising Forester

NYS - DEC

1285 Fisher Avenue

Cortland, NY 13045

(607) 753 - 3095 ext. 224

dmfornes@gw.dec.state.ny.us

 

 

This is interesting as it reinforces what the pair of geocachers were told by a ranger Hess (see my post on the first page), but it contradicts what Mr Messenger told NJAdmin (see his letter on page 2). Do we have another policy change here, or is this just one hand not knowing what the other is doing? Or is there no central policy and is the DEC is leaving the decision in the hands of each region's supervisor?

 

Anyway, before we all start e-mailing this guy, how about we let NJAdmin, or the NYGO clear this up.

Edited by briansnat
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Well that's promising. Hopefully other regions will follow suit. Although it also lends to the confusion as well. I would take a letter like that as policy for that particular region. I will be printing that letter and showing it to my region.

Edited by JMBella
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Here's a question for NJ Admin or any approver. Would you take that letter as permission from region 7, or do you feel that there is in fact a statewide policy that Mr. Forness just didn't know about? Being the supervisor of the region I would think that would suffice.

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I will add some more here. Mr Messenger is only speaking for his assigned area and cannot speak for the other regions that do not fall within the Catskill and ADK park boundry. And I think the approvers need to realize this. If Mr Forness says region 7 is good to go then there should be no conflict with Geocache.Com posting traditional caches located in this region.

 

Now I had a cache denied by NJadmin by following Mr Messengers letter. Mr Messenger has no jurisdiction on the area where I hid the cache and Mr Messenger even stated that in his latest letter. Granted my region sub station said you need a Temporary Revocable permit, but I am also dealing with a desk clerk and need to go to the head of region 4.

 

Bottom line is Mr Messenger is not Mr Forness boss in anyway.

 

Another good thing is that region 7 borders region 4 which is only a 1/2 drive for me. I have also contacted Mr Forness and am waiting for a reply.

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I will add some more here. Mr Messenger is only speaking for his assigned area and cannot speak for the other regions that do not fall within the Catskill and ADK park boundry. And I think the approvers need to realize this. If Mr Forness says region 7 is good to go then there should be no conflict with Geocache.Com posting traditional caches located in this region.

 

Now I had a cache denied by NJadmin by following Mr Messengers letter. Mr Messenger has no jurisdiction on the area where I hid the cache and Mr Messenger even stated that in his latest letter. Granted my region sub station said you need a Temporary Revocable permit, but I am also dealing with a desk clerk and need to go to the head of region 4.

 

Bottom line is Mr Messenger is not Mr Forness boss in anyway.

 

Another good thing is that region 7 borders region 4 which is only a 1/2 drive for me. I have also contacted Mr Forness and am waiting for a reply.

To the best of my knowledge, Mr. Messenger's position in the DEC is Supervising Forester for the entire state. In other words, he supervises Mr Forness.

While I have not yet spoken to Mr Forness, other regional rangers have conceded that Mr Messenger's word from Albany would be the official response.

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In any of the states that have come up with an agreeable permit system these systems were worked through with communication and input from both sides. We need a voice of reason to negotiate these kinds of changes into a workable permit system. The DEC's got to admit that the conditions on these permits do not properly address geocaching. The permit as it reads will merely make it too difficult to bother placing caches. It doesn't address any of the real concerns they might have about caches either, such as location, container, duration, etc... I don't think that benefits the DEC in the long run either. We are a group of environmentally minded individuals that have a real desire to explore and help maintain our public lands. We are bringing new people to our parks to explore the wonders everyday.

 

Pennsylvania did most of their negotiating in the public forum. Arkansas had a public hearing where they negotiated and had letter writing campaigns. What's NYGO's method of negotiation going to be?

Edited by Ttepee
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To the best of my knowledge, Mr. Messenger's position in the DEC is Supervising Forester for the entire state. In other words, he supervises Mr Forness.

While I have not yet spoken to Mr Forness, other regional rangers have conceded that Mr Messenger's word from Albany would be the official response.

I think there might be some confusion here. It is my understanding the Mr Messenger is Supervising Forester for the Bureau of Forest Preserve Management. NY state lands called "State Forests" are not "forest preserves" in any way shape or form. Furthermore Mr Messenger has clearly stated that State Forests (not Forest preserves) Are run by the New York Division of Fish and Wildlife, another branch of the DEC. Again I will say Mr Messenger has no say on what goes on in Region 7, UNLESS it pertains to a forest preserve which I really do not think they have any. It is Mr Forness job to run region 7 the way he see's fit and is accountable and responsible to the Albany main office.

 

Forest preserves in the Catskills and ADK mountains stand as they are (forever wild) where as State Forests are managed for pulp wood.

 

I know NY has one screwed system when it comes to the definitions of what is what. Being a NY'er I have traveled just about every piece of state land that there is.

 

Now with all said, I could be wrong about Mr Messenger's title with the state of NY and I was mis-informed . And if so I apoligize.

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To the best of my knowledge, Mr. Messenger's position in the DEC is Supervising Forester for the entire state. In other words, he supervises Mr Forness.

While I have not yet spoken to Mr Forness, other regional rangers have conceded that Mr Messenger's word from Albany would be the official response.

I think there might be some confusion here. It is my understanding the Mr Messenger is Supervising Forester for the Bureau of Forest Preserve Management. NY state lands called "State Forests" are not "forest preserves" in any way shape or form. Furthermore Mr Messenger has clearly stated that State Forests (not Forest preserves) Are run by the New York Division of Fish and Wildlife, another branch of the DEC. Again I will say Mr Messenger has no say on what goes on in Region 7, UNLESS it pertains to a forest preserve which I really do not think they have any. It is Mr Forness job to run region 7 the way he see's fit and is accountable and responsible to the Albany main office.

 

Forest preserves in the Catskills and ADK mountains stand as they are (forever wild) where as State Forests are managed for pulp wood.

 

I know NY has one screwed system when it comes to the definitions of what is what. Being a NY'er I have traveled just about every piece of state land that there is.

 

Now with all said, I could be wrong about Mr Messenger's title with the state of NY and I was mis-informed . And if so I apoligize.

I think you need to re-read Mr. Messenger's letter.

"State Forests" is another somewhat broad term that refers to lands that are under the jurisdiction of the DEC outside of the Adirondack and

Catskill Parks.  It includes State Reforestation Areas, Multiple Use Areas, and Unique Areas.

Wildlife Management Areas are not considered State Forests.  They are managed by our Division of Fish, Wildlife & Marine Resources; I do not know if they permit geogaching.

It's a DEC wide policy. You can argue who's in charge, but I can dig up caches that have been removed by DEC rangers from State Forests, Conservation Areas, and State Reforestation Areas, in all regions.

 

We have two choices here. Either follow the current policy and try to get a workable, consistant policy in place, or ignore the current one and continue to place caches against their wishes. If you do that, they will keep removing them.

If things get too out of hand, they may decide to make an example out of a few caches and press charges. Right or wrong, most of us can't afford to fight that battle. If a guy has to spend $100,000 in NY just to hang onto a personalized license plate, who knows how much an ammo can full of McToys may be worth.

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I apologize for being two days behind in my reading. My whole family has been sick so I've been under the weather.

 

But, I wanted to share the summary I've so far put together with information up through two days ago. I promise to catch up on my reading of this thread and make updates a necessary.

 

Instead of posting the whole thing here in this thread and taking up scads of reading room, I've temporarily put up the summary on my website at the following URL:

 

http://www.thewildhunt.com/thegreen/decsummary.htm

 

Please comment and let me know of any errors I've made or improvements that can be made. Enjoy!

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It's interesting that quickly looking through all the notes in this forum that we are getting bits and pieces of policy and procedures from the DEC and Geocaching.com.

My latest from NJ Admin (Isent him Forness's note) was he would rather approve caches and not list them. I take that as a no, the note is not acceptable. I asked NJ Admin to give me his Albany contact, with the hope of putting Forness and him together.

 

I posted this on Southertiergeocachers@yahoogroups.com:

My last message indicated that permits were not needed according to Ranger Forness, Region 7. However NJ Admin@Geocaching.com says we need a permit according to Albany. I asked who in Albany and contact info.

I also sent Ranger Forness a note asking about Albany. Some regions are requiring TRPs.

Ranger Forness will be looking into why a TRP, whether the TRP can be approved to Geocaching.com as an organization, and help us figure this out. A TRP is more than paperwork. It requires insurance for liabnility naming the DEC as an additional insured with yearly renewal.

Ranger Forness would like to know if there is an organization who would take this responsibility?

I'll keep you posted. Notes are also being posted in the NorthEast section of Geocaching.com forum.

-----------------------------------------------

I've got a busy week, and weekends, youth plays, boy scouts, spaghetti suppers, etc, When I get a change I think a summary of the guessed at policy gleaned from this forum might be a nice post.

 

What I would like to see at this point is for NJ Admin to post a reference to this policy of the DEC's geocaching would like to follow and one to the procedures for aquiring a TRP.

 

Thanks, Rangeray

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yawn...

Thanks for all the love. <_<

Hi Ferreter5,

 

Not yawning at you in particular, but at the circular nature of this discussion thread...nobody knows more than they did a couple of weeks ago, and I find it frustrating...NYGO appears even less active than gc.com (and they have more at stake)...people keep asking for updates or info, and being referred to the same old and incomplete information...talking about the need to do something, but not doing anything.

 

I have asked both here and at NYGO about helping in a plan, but it appears that the plan is to wait out the DEC, perhaps hoping they grow too old to run down cachers...

 

I'm still ready to help in any way that I can, but found myself bored with the discussion last night, and exercised my right/ability to express myself (in a forum, noone can see you yawn, so you have to type it).

 

Sorry for any offense, none was intended,

 

NFA

 

P.S. - btw Ferreter5, nothing but love for you and all the people concerned with protecting the rights of outdoors people in New York. :ph34r:

Edited by NFA
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Contact OurWoods with a Private Message via the NYGO site. Say you want to join the Public Relations committee and work on land management issues. I know someone else has recently been asked to join the PR committee, but I have no idea if they accepted or not. :mad:

 

I currently have an outstanding Private Message to OurWoods to discuss the DEC issue. I assume I'll be hearing back sometime in the next few days to arrange to discuss it.

 

Please realize that NYGO has been actively working on land management issues (i.e. getting its act together and getting organized) only since March of this year. :mad:

 

Last year was primarily dedicated to getting the organization formed and incorporated as a non-profit, holding some events, creating a web site, creating brochures, and generally just getting up and running. This year we're moving on to the next phase as an organization.

 

P.S. I do feel the love, we're just not ready to start making random phone calls yet.

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I am working on making some contact. Czarniecki314's neighbor (who works for some fish and wildlife thing in VT) is contacting someone he knows in the DEC in NY - specifically for 2 caches I placed in Tibbit's Forrest.

 

I don't know where it will go but hopefully it is a start - maybe a test run for them. I am keeping my fingers crossed and will post any info when I get it.

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Maybe this is off of the topic, but...

 

Anyone know why there's almost 0 caches are in the Cooperstown area? I visit that area now and then, and whenever I look up caches around... there are almost none.

 

Is there some law that's protecting that area? Just curious. Anyways, to see for yourself... if you put in the zipcode 13326 into the search, you'll see the closest is 15 miles away, check the map to see how really barren it is.

 

...maybe it's just too far into the "boondocks"? i dunno. anyways, always kind of thought there might be something preventing caches from being placed around there.

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protocoldroid... I think it's just lack of cachers in the area. Hopefully the recent article in the Oneonta Daily star will spark some new interest up there. I planted the Gilbert Lake cache GCAC2 almost 3 years ago now. The first year it saw only 5 visitors. The second year 13 ... so far this past year has been 14 but we've still got a couple weeks before it's aniversary. A few new ones have popped up nearby over the years but it's been a slow start. I'd love to see more caches around there.

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