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Bomb Squads & Cahes. Time To Do Something.


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There are police and bomb squad people who cache. Email me or PM me and I'll get the ball rolling on coordinating a workable solution. Even if there is no easy solution it would be good to have the conversation. Terracachers will make anything that comes out of this available to all listing sites and local organizations.

 

Throw out your good ideas also. You never know who is going to have the one brainstorm that works.

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I say we try and get together a database of bomb squads across the country.

 

But basically, that's not the necessity, we'd get together a packet explaining to them what geocaches are, and where you can find them, and maybe where there are some in the local area. We could also invite someone from their team to go geocaching with a local cacher or even start caching for theirselves so they can see what caches are and maybe be able to better identify one when they see it in the wild, or be able to track it from the website online.

 

Basically, I don't know how other than the above suggestion, but I think we need some kind of awareness campaign aimed towards police departments and bomb squads...

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This topic is much needed. Thanks for starting it.

 

I think that a good step would be to put the little: "You've Found a Geocache-Intentionally or Not!" paper in all caches. Putting geocaching.com on the outside of caches would help likewise. It may be a bit too far and it would have to be worked out with park owners, but maybe putting a flier at the entrance of a park that states that there is a geocache in this park, it is in an ammo box, and please don't be alarmed and please don't take it. But, what really would help is for cache hiders to place hides while thinking about the current situation.

 

That is my fiftieth of a dollar.

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I know this will not work for everyplace but in our small town and area it will. Large cities would be impossible for it to work in. I am in the process of placing caches in the county. I contacted the county and I need to show the county and parks groundkeeper what they are, there location and then also take a police officer on a geocache tour to show them what the caches look like and where they are located. They want to make sure they know where they are so they are not mistaken for a bomb. I am also painting the caches so they are not the green ammo box. I also make sure that the geocaching stencil is on the outside of the box. I think I am also going to provide the city and county with a map of where all the geocaches are located.

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We should build a database of all the geocaches and make the data available on the internet. That way when the bombsquad gets a call, they can look up the coordinates and see if a cache is there. Then their only excuse will be stupidity.

Brilliant! But who will run the website and what should we call it? Maybe we could even have forums so we could talk about all these important issues and get to know our fellow cachers even BETTER. Great idea!

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You folks are absolutely correct in saying we should inform all police departments about what a cache looks like. That should make it easier for the real bomber to fool the police departments with fake caches!!

 

Be sure and lable all caches inside and out with a distinctive lable to make it easier to slip one past the police.

 

Don't forget to lable all those fake rocks and hollow logs also.

 

Just how many different type of caches are there that we will need to show the police so they will know it's not a bomb?

 

Maybe it would be easier to teach the police how to use a GPSr and a mapping program to cross check a strange package.

 

Just the opinions of an old fart.

 

Can't spell either.

Edited by 2oldfarts (the rockhounders)
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There is no need for a knee jerk reaction. 99.9% of caches would never cause a concern. Law enforcement is not going to treat every found container as a bomb threat, unless of course you put in in a park in a wood box with a trip wire running from it. :rolleyes:

 

I think it's our responsibility when we hide a cache to consider what might cause alarm if accdently discovered by a muggle. It's also not a bad idea if your not going to use a clear container to put the Geocaching sticker on the outside of the container, or at least write the web site address on it.

 

Someone suggested we start a data base with coordinates and cache listings. I believe we already have one, it's called Geocaching.com

 

El Diablo

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I have a feeling that a bomb squad will do what ever is necessary to ensure public and personal safety and if it means blowing up a cache, then that's what will be done. If your cache is suspicious looking, and in an area that could be perceived as potential target of wrongdoers...like the Disneyland cellphone cache...it may cause problems in the future. No one sets a cache out to scare the general public, but it's exactly what happens when an unknowing person stumbles across one.

 

"We should build a database of all the geocaches and make the data available on the internet. That way when the bombsquad gets a call, they can look up the coordinates and see if a cache is there. Then their only excuse will be stupidity. "

 

What is to prevent someone from creating an account, BSing an admin into posting a cache, and rig the cache to do harm to whoever finds it? Even if the EOD team looks it up, it appears to be legit. Far fetched? YES. But evil works best on the unsuspecting.

 

EOD has been known to detonate ordinance in place, in a house, when the ordinance is known to be too dangerous to even remove from the premises. I don't envy them in their jobs at all, but I appreciate the service they provide to keep us safe.

 

If caches are kept off the beaten path, unsuspecting citizens won't stumble upon them. This is probably the best solution to keeping a cache from potentially causing a widespread panic...much to the chagrin of downtown and densely populated public park cache hiders.

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We should build a database of all the geocaches and make the data available on the internet. That way when the bombsquad gets a call, they can look up the coordinates and see if a cache is there. Then their only excuse will be stupidity.

RATFINK!

 

I am sitting here with milk and cereal down the front of my 'T' shirt. That was the funniest thing I have seen on here for ages. Well, possibly it's just coz I am a touch twisted in the humour department, but d@#n, it was funny.....

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I have a feeling that a bomb squad will do what ever is necessary to ensure public and personal safety and if it means blowing up a cache, then that's what will be done. If your cache is suspicious looking, and in an area that could be perceived as potential target of wrongdoers...like the Disneyland cellphone cache...it may cause problems in the future. No one sets a cache out to scare the general public, but it's exactly what happens when an unknowing person stumbles across one.

 

"We should build a database of all the geocaches and make the data available on the internet. That way when the bombsquad gets a call, they can look up the coordinates and see if a cache is there. Then their only excuse will be stupidity. "

 

What is to prevent someone from creating an account, BSing an admin into posting a cache, and rig the cache to do harm to whoever finds it? Even if the EOD team looks it up, it appears to be legit. Far fetched? YES. But evil works best on the unsuspecting.

 

EOD has been known to detonate ordinance in place, in a house, when the ordinance is known to be too dangerous to even remove from the premises. I don't envy them in their jobs at all, but I appreciate the service they provide to keep us safe.

 

If caches are kept off the beaten path, unsuspecting citizens won't stumble upon them. This is probably the best solution to keeping a cache from potentially causing a widespread panic...much to the chagrin of downtown and densely populated public park cache hiders.

A bomber will not have to place a cache listing on Geocaching.com to accomplish their task.. They can look on the site and find a cache already placed in the area they want to raise cain in and simply replace the legit cache with a bomb. Scary?...yeah!....Difficult?...NO!

 

I agree we should keep caches off the beaten path --- to H... with the old and infirm or the handicapped. We don't need them to enjoy 'OUR' sport! <_<:rolleyes:

 

John

 

Shirley says she's afraid to go geocaching now...

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You folks are absolutely correct in saying we should inform all police departments about what a cache looks like. That should make it easier for the real bomber to fool the police departments with fake caches!!

What precisely does a geocache look like? Listed are only the first 25 types of cache containers I've come across that come to mind:

 

1. ammo boxes

2. Rubbermaid/Tupperware-type boxes

3. decon containers

4. pencil cases, plastic or metal

5. film canisters, plastic or metal

6. Hide-a-Keys, plastic or metal, in a variety of styles

7. imitation rocks/stones

8. sprinkler heads

9. fake electrical outlets

10. fake tree stumps or limbs

11. bird houses

12. coffee cans

13. deli containers of every description

14. Altoids-type boxes, several sizes

15. Bison capsules

16. pharmaceutical containers of every description

17. flashlights

18. imitation beehives

19. plastic animals

20. Thermos bottles

21. children's plastic or metal lunchboxes

22. tool boxes/tackle boxes

23. plastic bags, either garbage bags or sandwich bags

24. fence post toppers/caps

25. hollowed-out books

 

Oh yeah ... how did I forget to mention the 3 imitation pipebombs I've found? I especially liked the one with the red pushbutton.

Edited by Bassoon Pilot
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We don't have a single online database of all caches. We do have one site that has most of them. However Navicache is growing, and state and local sites do host caches that are not listed on geocaching.com. Other sites are coming and because of that the online database problem will get worse.

 

I understand criminal and El Diablo's point though.

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A bomber will not have to place a cache listing on Geocaching.com to accomplish their task.. They can look on the site and find a cache already placed in the area they want to raise cain in and simply replace the legit cache with a bomb. Scary?...yeah!....Difficult?...NO!

A long time ago I suggested that coordinates only be visible to those who are logged in.

 

Originally this was in response to one of my caches being plundered. That was early in the game for me, now if one gets plundered I would just archive it.

 

However, it might still would be a good idea since if someone were to tamper with a cache, the list of suspects could be narrower.

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A bomber will not have to place a cache listing on Geocaching.com to accomplish their task.. They can look on the site and find a cache already placed in the area they want to raise cain in and simply replace the legit cache with a bomb. Scary?...yeah!....Difficult?...NO!

 

No, its not scary...to me. I have more of a chance being struck by lightning on the trail, or getting hit by a car on the way there than encountering a bomb in a cache. Besides, how many of these "evildoers" will go through all that trouble to kill one person? The point of a bomb is to kill and maim as many people as possible, so a bomb at the top of a remote Colorado peak, or deep in a New Jersey forest won't accomplish much.

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We should build a database of all the geocaches and make the data available on the internet. That way when the bombsquad gets a call, they can look up the coordinates and see if a cache is there. Then their only excuse will be stupidity.

Now this is a great idea. Wonder why nobody thought about this before. We could have this database keep track of the people that find these caches. And even better, the finders could write a little note about their experience finding the geocache.

 

But what to call it? geo something.

 

Hmmm. Can anyone help with a name for this???

 

F_M

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Its not even that we have to go all out on a limb. A simple letter to the local fire or police department for anywhere that you've hidden a cache isn't that hard to do.

 

Dear Mr. Police Chief Man,

I have hidden a geocach with permission of the property owners, park department, etc, and in accordance with the rules of geocaching.com.

Geocaching is a high-tech treasure hunting sport where.....

In the past, people have found these and have been unfamilliar with them. Bomb squads have been called in only to find that their 'bomb' is nothing but a container full of McToys.

If you would like to contact me, I will take you out and show you the location of these caches.

Thank YOu

Joe Q Geocacher

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A bomber will not have to place a cache listing on Geocaching.com to accomplish their task.. They can look on the site and find a cache already placed in the area they want to raise cain in and simply replace the legit cache with a bomb. Scary?...yeah!....Difficult?...NO!

 

The point of a bomb is to kill and maim as many people as possible, so a bomb at the top of a remote Colorado peak, or deep in a New Jersey forest won't accomplish much.

Exactly. There is no collateral damage value if someone tooled with a remotish cache. No one that is going to rig a cache to hurt one or two people...unless it was people bait for a sniper :rolleyes: It would be the Disneyland type cache areas that would be targeted for the switcheroo.

 

Realistically, I don't think geocaches would light lightbulbs in a terrorists' or psychopaths' mind as a great way to injure folks. But no bomb squad or EOD team wants to be the first to find out that it did tickle the fancy of one lunatic. Public safety will take precedence over preserving an ammo box of geotrash McToys

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wow

 

there are some scary and funny points in here. and a few things Id quote but i won't take the time. my general input:

1) living in a rural community, I could easily talk to the local police and troopers and ask if they are familiar with geocaching. then explain what it is, and the general whereabouts of caches. (there hasn't been any rash of bombings around here to generate high suspicion)

2) what about just offering the cops your contact info, and if they find something suspiscous, they can check with you, as their "geocache" liason. (obviously not a good idea if your paronoid and/or on the run). However, the added benefit to me is i spend a lot of time parked on the side of roads or in fields looking for benchmarks, cellar holes, and other abandoned junk; then they would know me and know i'm not a threat.

3) as mentioned above, not many acts of terrorism go on here, so i'm really not to worried about the whole thing. 'round here, the concern is more: what's in that plastic bag on the side of the road. especially around deer season...

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Letting your local PD,FD, etc will do nothing. I'm the person that dispatches the bomb squad, pd, fd, ems to calls. I'm obviously not speaking for every city but chances are I'm correct. Your letter will get lost or the person you spoke with will not pass it on to co-workers. Truth of the matter is that public safety personnel already have to many things to remember and pay attention to than our addiction. When I recieve a call for a suspicious package the last thing I have on my mind is to check a data base or folder to see if its a gamepiece. Also the fact of liability forces us to handle the matter as if it was a serious possible threat.

 

My best advice is to use your head and place the cache where it will not be found accidently. A strange box in an odd loaction, labeled or not is going to be handled like it should be in the eyes of a emergency worker. Like a suspicious box.

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Letting your local PD,FD, etc will do nothing. I'm the person that dispatches the bomb squad, pd, fd, ems to calls. I'm obviously not speaking for every city but chances are I'm correct. Your letter will get lost or the person you spoke with will not pass it on to co-workers. Truth of the matter is that public safety personnel already have to many things to remember and pay attention to than our addiction. When I recieve a call for a suspicious package the last thing I have on my mind is to check a data base or folder to see if its a gamepiece. Also the fact of liability forces us to handle the matter as if it was a serious possible threat.

 

My best advice is to use your head and place the cache where it will not be found accidently. A strange box in an odd loaction, labeled or not is going to be handled like it should be in the eyes of a emergency worker. Like a suspicious box.

Finally a word of reason.....thank you!

 

(Emphasis mine)

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When I recieve a call for a suspicious package the last thing I have on my mind is to check a data base or folder to see if its a gamepiece. Also the fact of liability forces us to handle the matter as if it was a serious possible threat.

 

My best advice is to use your head and place the cache where it will not be found accidently. A strange box in an odd loaction, labeled or not is going to be handled like it should be in the eyes of a emergency worker.  Like a suspicious box.

Finally a word of reason.....thank you!

Sensible words, indeed. But I find it highly ironic that one of the caches owned by the individual who penned those words could easily cause precisely the type of scenario that has been discussed the past couple of days if seekers fail to take extra care to be discreet.

Edited by Bassoon Pilot
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Good point, good point. Except for the fact that most ( not all) of the people who would see the cachiers are aware of my hobby and the location of the cache. Plus I can guarantee you that no bomb squad was going to be sent out. But regardless it was not the best spot for a cache. Point taken.

Edited by SERG312
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my first thought is that bomb squads probably love the opportunity to use their gear and gadgets and probably can't wait for the chance to blow up a package. basically, if they find something they think they should-or can-use their gear on, they will.

 

it doesn't help that there are people out there who believe that every box is a bomb, and there's a terrorist around every corner. life goes on, i will hide my caches carefully and go on with life.

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Just use clear containers in the more "urban" areas and save the ammo cans and similar containers for the remote locations.Who is going to place a bomb on a 3 mile hike in the middle of nowhere?

In an earlier thread on this from about a year ago it was pointed out that clear doest make much difference. If they junk inside is not patently obviouse which it normally isn't because of log books, cache sheets etc. the bomb squad will still err on the side of safety and blow it up.

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My input: it's not as much law enforcement as it is the general population that needs educated on the sport. If you can prevent the call being placed to the police in the first place....

 

Part of the solution has to include public awareness. Keep the sport as family entertainment, involve the children and friends, and tell people who will listen. And remeber there will always be someone who didn't hear about, doesn't like it, and doesn't think anyone else should do it.

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i tried to have this discussion within geocaching in cities the other week. glad we are now able to reasonbly discuss this. wish i could come up with a better solution than to avoid urban areas but i don't think there is.

 

one potential problem for us is that if we annoy too many people in too many towns they'll do something to stop us. lets remember they don't even need to officially ban the sport. all they have to do is equip one member of staff with a computer, a gps and transport. the employee then just removes all geocaches from within the city limits, their problem solved.

 

go on flame away, i've suggested the unthinkable, that the sport should be non urban. hell get out there and enjoy the countryside, get out of the towns. if you want to see things in town go shopping! as has been said no terrorist is going to plant something in the woods so we've nothing to worry about and the sport isn't going to suffer.

 

it's still possible to do caches that the less mobile cachers can take part it just takes a little more thought. we're all intelligent can't we come up with some?

 

anyhow that's my 2 cents worth, flame away!

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We should build a database of all the geocaches and make the data available on the internet. That way when the bombsquad gets a call, they can look up the coordinates and see if a cache is there. Then their only excuse will be stupidity.

Whether I am wearing Nomex or Kevlar, I am going to handle suspicious packages that I am dispatched for as a hazard to myself and to my crew.

 

I would wager every emergency responder in the country is going to handle dispatches for suspicious packages in the same way.

 

Uploading coordinates and expecting that an emergency crew has either the time or the resources to cross reference that the suspicious device is either a geocache, a letterbox, environmental monitoring station, or high school science project sounds plausible... unless you have ever worked public safety.

 

To suggest that "their only excuse will be stupidity" is an insult to every one of us in public safety.

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Besides, how many of these "evildoers" will go through all that trouble to kill one person?  The point of a bomb is to kill and maim as many people as possible, so a bomb at the top of a remote Colorado peak, or deep in a New Jersey forest won't accomplish much.

You're right that most bombers aren't interested in setting explosives just to kill one person.

 

What is popular is setting a smaller primary device to attract emergency responders and then following it with a larger secondary device that's well concealed and intended with but one goal.

 

To generate headlines through the violent attrition of emergency responders.

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What I would like to know is how many geocaches have been blown up by the bomb squad in comparasin to items that were non-geocaches?

 

I mean, the only reason that the geocache gets the attention is that there is a web-site to assosiate with the item.

 

Say for example, someone steals a pair of shoes from a store.... he then leaves the box in some park somewhere. Here we are with a box in a park.... same situation right? "Alert citizen" sees this box and calls the cops, who in turn call EOD, they blow it up. Now the EOD team after realizes that it is just a shoe box, but in this case there is no one to blame for their "blatant disregard for the public's safety" so nothing is made of it. It might make the local news, but that is about it.

 

I would bet money that the majority of "suspicious" package calls are not geocaches.

 

So after my diatribe I guess I can summarize by saying not all false alarms are caused by us, and we shouldn't feel bad when they are. Hiders should make an effort to ensure their cache isn't going to be found accidentaly, and bomb squads are still gonna blow up packages they don't know about, labeled or not.

 

Now this has got me thinking.... what would happen if some nut job decided to start booby-trapping existing caches? Anyone remember the tylonol scare?

 

That might be a nightmare to end the sport.

 

Scott

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First I want to preface that I'm only talking about regular sized caches.

 

IMO they should be clearly labeled on the outside that they are geocaches. As for clear plastic containers, they should be preferable, but not a requirement as a geocache container.

 

Notifying local law enforcement agencies of the prescence of the sport of geocaching should be enough. I seriously doubt they want to be bothered of having to keep track of geocaches in their juristiction.

 

As for speculation of bombs under the disguised as a geocache, this is a pure waste of time. Any devious individual make a bomb and conceal it any number of ways.

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IMO they should be clearly labeled on the outside that they are geocaches. As for clear plastic containers, they should be preferable, but not a requirement as a geocache container.

 

Again, though the poor little pony appears to be quite demised, what would keep real bombers from stashing a bomb and painting in bright red words on the outside "NOT A BOMB"? ;)

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You're right that most bombers aren't interested in setting explosives just to kill one person.

You would be amazed at how many bombs are planted per year in the United States with the aim of killing either zero or one person. Check out the statistics (sorry, I don't have a link, but I read them on paper a couple of years back, the numbers were amazing).

 

If there's a bomb squad in your town, it's not because Donald Rumsfeld has set it up in the last couple of years; it's because bombs have been going off for a long time. The Mafia, anti-abortion clinic people, animal liberation types, all have set off bombs when it suited them.

 

I suppose everyone's thinking of Al Qaeda right now, but actually you're far, far more likely to be somewhere near a "home grown" bomb, and in the majority of cases it will be set off by someone with "regular criminal" rather than "terrorist" intent (I appreciate that those two areas overlap).

 

Here in Europe, where we've had bomb terrorism for 30 years or more (think of the IRA, the Red Brigades in Italy, ETA, Baader-Meinhof, etc, plus for most of that time we were a lot closer to the Middle East so Black September and company would have their pop at Israel on the streets and in the airports of European capitals), the police are still less paranoid than it seems US law enforcement has become. Or maybe it's just that the stories don't make the papers as much.

 

Back on the topic: the contents and description of any well-hidden cache should be fairly academic, because only GCers should (a) be looking for it and (;) find it. Once muggles find a cache, my big concern would be that they would steal or vandalise it. If the police get called, that's publicity (of which, I believe the saying goes, there is no bad version).

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IMO they should be clearly labeled on the outside that they are geocaches. As for clear plastic containers, they should be preferable, but not a requirement as a geocache container.

 

Again, though the poor little pony appears to be quite demised, what would keep real bombers from stashing a bomb and painting in bright red words on the outside "NOT A BOMB"? ;)

ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

 

But I'm willing to bet anyone from the police isn't going to trust anything written on a package telling them it isn't a bomb. Just like any police officer who tells someone to put down what he believes is a gun, despite the fact that he can plainly see it has the same color as a squirt gun.

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Two words: Clear Containers.

Two words: Rail Bombs

 

Ok, to save people the trouble of reading, the bombs were in clear plastic containers.

 

Also, at last count, I think the number of geocaches blown up as possible bombs was pretty evenly split between ammo cans and rubbermaid. Add a cell phone and a wooden box to the mix, and you can be pretty sure they blow up anything they arent sure of. In the real world, bombs dont always look like sticks of dynamite taped together and wired to a clock. They might be a briefcase, a back pack, a pupperware container, or even a GameBoy.

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Um, do I need to go out and retrieve all of my newly hidden urban micros? ;) Especially the one in the city park with the police station on one side, a fire station on another, and the main city newpaper on a third, and nice new upscale condos on the fourth?

It's such a nice park, I really want other cachers to enjoy it. So many live so far out in the 'burbs and never venture to the scary ;) downtown without motivation. ;)

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To suggest that "their only excuse will be stupidity" is an insult to every one of us in public safety.

I don’t know if you noticed it or not, but the whole post is a JOKE.

 

People are far too easily “insulted” these days. Don’t look for a reason to be offended.

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not all false alarms are caused by us, and we shouldn't feel bad when they are. Hiders should make an effort to ensure their cache isn't going to be found accidentaly, and bomb squads are still gonna blow up packages they don't know about, labeled or not.

Hear, hear.

 

1) Hide your cache well, so ParanoidMuggle doesn't find it.

 

2) Accept that if ParanoidMuggle finds it, there's a chance he'll call the bomb squad.

 

3) Thank the bomb squad for entering a situation in which they think they're risking their lives.

 

4) Goto 1.

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Two words:  Clear Containers.

Two words: Rail Bombs

 

Ok, to save people the trouble of reading, the bombs were in clear plastic containers.

 

Also, at last count, I think the number of geocaches blown up as possible bombs was pretty evenly split between ammo cans and rubbermaid. Add a cell phone and a wooden box to the mix, and you can be pretty sure they blow up anything they arent sure of. In the real world, bombs dont always look like sticks of dynamite taped together and wired to a clock. They might be a briefcase, a back pack, a pupperware container, or even a GameBoy.

Come on let's be fair here. If a cache or bomb were in a clear plastic container, how likily would it be for the bombs squad to blow it up if it were a cache filled with toys? They can't be that stupid can they? ;)

 

As for bomb looking taped to a alarm clock... pre 9-11 (but post Lockerby (sp), Scottland)... 60 Minutes did a story on airport security. It was pitiful. The test for those guys sitting behind the X-ray machine was to look for bomb that looked exactly like that - big clock taped to a bundle of sticks of dynamite. What made even more pathetic, tests were announced to X-ray screeners days before they were to be tested. Believe it or not some screeners still failed this test! ;)

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