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Disrespect


dmorris

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I am interested in this new pastime however, I do have some concerns. I have noticed several caches on Native reservations in AZ. This is not acceptable. First it is tresspassing! Second, how would you like me to list a waypoint in your backyard? I am also concerned about caches that send people to archaeological sites. As benign as this pastime may seem, most arch sites would do better with less visitation. As much as I would like to believe that all geocachers are respectful, odds are this is not the case. Search on with respect, please!

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I don't know how much research you did on these caches, but is it possible that some of them were placed there by Native Americans? If not then I agree that it would be trespassing, unless the cache owner got approval from the Tribe in charge. You didn't state if you checked on these type of things, or list any of the caches in question, so it's hard to know what the whole story is here. icon_confused.gif

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I don't know how much research you did on these caches, but is it possible that some of them were placed there by Native Americans? If not then I agree that it would be trespassing, unless the cache owner got approval from the Tribe in charge. You didn't state if you checked on these type of things, or list any of the caches in question, so it's hard to know what the whole story is here. icon_confused.gif

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Unfortunately, I do know that the Nations in question have not given permission for anyone to travel off road as would be required in such cases as "Rattlers Art Gallery". I only address this for the sake of those who don't realize that you do need permission to travel 'off road' on Indian Reservations and that many areas such as those with PETROGLYPHS (no pictographs here)are considered sacred by the Native people. Just because there is a road going that way doesn't mean you can (or should) travel it. [Old Indian Saying].

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Part of way geocaching works is self-policing. I suggest that you go to this cache page. (http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.asp?ID=2130) and any others that you think are problems. Then click on the "Log your visit" then select "Cache should be archived", there you can express your concerns. This action will not only put your concerns on the cache page, but also notify the admins of geocaching.com there is a potential problem and they will review it.

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.... and start searching for ALL the ones on Indian reservations, think VERY carefully. Ask yourself, is this true for ALL reservations, or just the one in question?? We, as responsible Cache owners DO try to abide by local laws and customs. However, we don't always KNOW the local laws.

 

For example in Indiana, did you know that "Within four hours of eating garlic, a person may not enter a movie house, theater, or ride a public streetcar." This law is still on our books. Closer, perhaps to your home, in Arizona, did you know "When being attacked by a criminal or burglar, you may only protect yourself with the same weapon that the other person posseses." So, dump the mace and pocket knive, and forget about that gun you carry for self protection.

 

My point is that this cache MAY be breaking the law, I don't know. I went to several sites concerning the "Off Roading", "Paved Roads", and the like for this area (Gila River) and only found mention ATVs and motorized bikes. I found no mention of SUV's or standard vehicles (even found a few sites promoting it).

 

I would have to agree with the previous poster, if you do know (and even better, can provide proof), there are ways to "archive" a cache, which removes it from the list. "Log your visit", it is a link in the upper right hand corner of the cache page. On it is an option to "Cache should be archived". In the "Comments" section, put in the reason WHY it should be, including links to any proof. This will do three things, (1) email the geocache admins of a "problem" cache, (2) email the cache owner, and (3) post notes in the logs that there may be a problem. If there is a problem, the cache owner would visit the site and remove the cache.

 

Realize though, that posts there can be edited and removed by the admin (and perhaps the cache owner). They may do this if your comments are deemed inappropriate or the "proof" did not pan out. I would chose my words there carefully. Don't be TOO general by saying "ALL indian reservations" require permits to take pictures when it is only the one in question.

 

We, as cache owners, read other caches in the area so as not to place them too near each other. We also look for neat tricks and twists. We also use these forums to discuss our game strategy and keep each other informed.

 

This concludes the legal aspect of my rantings.

 

Bear & Ting icon_biggrin.gif

 

I thought I was a little off, then I looked at my GPS and discovered I accurate to 12 ft.

 

Geocachers don't NEED to ask for directions!

 

[This message was edited by Bear & Ting on July 06, 2002 at 07:56 AM.]

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.... and start searching for ALL the ones on Indian reservations, think VERY carefully. Ask yourself, is this true for ALL reservations, or just the one in question?? We, as responsible Cache owners DO try to abide by local laws and customs. However, we don't always KNOW the local laws.

 

For example in Indiana, did you know that "Within four hours of eating garlic, a person may not enter a movie house, theater, or ride a public streetcar." This law is still on our books. Closer, perhaps to your home, in Arizona, did you know "When being attacked by a criminal or burglar, you may only protect yourself with the same weapon that the other person posseses." So, dump the mace and pocket knive, and forget about that gun you carry for self protection.

 

My point is that this cache MAY be breaking the law, I don't know. I went to several sites concerning the "Off Roading", "Paved Roads", and the like for this area (Gila River) and only found mention ATVs and motorized bikes. I found no mention of SUV's or standard vehicles (even found a few sites promoting it).

 

I would have to agree with the previous poster, if you do know (and even better, can provide proof), there are ways to "archive" a cache, which removes it from the list. "Log your visit", it is a link in the upper right hand corner of the cache page. On it is an option to "Cache should be archived". In the "Comments" section, put in the reason WHY it should be, including links to any proof. This will do three things, (1) email the geocache admins of a "problem" cache, (2) email the cache owner, and (3) post notes in the logs that there may be a problem. If there is a problem, the cache owner would visit the site and remove the cache.

 

Realize though, that posts there can be edited and removed by the admin (and perhaps the cache owner). They may do this if your comments are deemed inappropriate or the "proof" did not pan out. I would chose my words there carefully. Don't be TOO general by saying "ALL indian reservations" require permits to take pictures when it is only the one in question.

 

We, as cache owners, read other caches in the area so as not to place them too near each other. We also look for neat tricks and twists. We also use these forums to discuss our game strategy and keep each other informed.

 

This concludes the legal aspect of my rantings.

 

Bear & Ting icon_biggrin.gif

 

I thought I was a little off, then I looked at my GPS and discovered I accurate to 12 ft.

 

Geocachers don't NEED to ask for directions!

 

[This message was edited by Bear & Ting on July 06, 2002 at 07:56 AM.]

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.... and start searching for ALL the ones on Indian reservations, think VERY carefully. Is this your land, your people, and your spirits someone may be disturbing? Perhaps it is, and I am not here to debate your beliefs or to demean them in any way. Most responsible cache owners respect other people beliefs and would abide by any request made by a property owner, a committee (such as a parks board), or a spiritual congress. But, before you condem all caches and cachers, think about this.

 

Christians, Jews, Hindus, Islamic, and more all have burial grounds (or cemetarys). For many of us, it is a link to our past. For others, it is a link to history. Humans have marked the passing of time in many ways, from cave drawings to markers, from petroglyphs to head stones. All of these mark some period of time.

 

I admit, though, that visiting some of these areas can cause damage. When we were in Hawaii (Maui), we visited "The Broken Bunny" cache. At the base of the hill were 'glyphs that were discovered in the 50's. However, there were few regulations and such then. When the archelogists decided they wanted to study them in the 60's, some people had desectrated them, placing their own "symbols" in the area. This sign near the area states that to the untrained person, it may be hard to tell the historical 'glyphs from the more modern ones.

 

Does that mean they should all be off-limits? Personally, I don't think so, but it is not my call. If they mark a sacred area, perhaps. However, when I went to Europe in 2000, we toured many sacred and spiritual places, churches, where in the catacombs many people were buried. Did I feel I was descrating their tombs? No. Did I feel a connection with the past? Yes.

 

As I stated in my "legal" post, if there is a problem with a specific cache, "Log your visit" and suggest it be archived. The admins and the cache owner will look into it.

 

Bear & Ting

 

I thought I was a little off, then I looked at my GPS and discovered I accurate to 12 ft.

 

Geocachers don't NEED to ask for directions!

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quote:
Originally posted by Bear & Ting:

.... However, we don't always KNOW the local laws.

 

For example in Indiana, did you know that "Within four hours of eating garlic, a person may not enter a movie house, theater, or ride a public streetcar." This law is still on our books. ...


 

What a great regulation. I'd like to see that enacted in NYS. I'd add curry too!

 

alan

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Hmmm, "Disrespect" some thing to ponder on I guess. I'am a "White-Eyes" living on the reservation (Yuma Area), I have checked with the tribal office here and they have no problem with placing caches on the res--, if common sense and the rules of GC are followed. A section was just added to the guidelines for placing caches (May 02) on the Archaeological site areas, On the request of the Arizona Archaeolgical Society. If one does come across a questionable cache, as already stated, archive-it and it will be sorted out. Enjoy icon_smile.gif

 

Mzee --- ~The Seeker~

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Hmmm, "Disrespect" some thing to ponder on I guess. I'am a "White-Eyes" living on the reservation (Yuma Area), I have checked with the tribal office here and they have no problem with placing caches on the res--, if common sense and the rules of GC are followed. A section was just added to the guidelines for placing caches (May 02) on the Archaeological site areas, On the request of the Arizona Archaeolgical Society. If one does come across a questionable cache, as already stated, archive-it and it will be sorted out. Enjoy icon_smile.gif

 

Mzee --- ~The Seeker~

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TROLL ALERT!!!!

Just check this guys profile, no caches found yet. After the guy with the machette and the red meat theory, we should recognize these people for who they are. If he isn't trolling for a response, then I can only assume that he is a nature nazi, no one should use the land for anything. The fact that the caches in question are on tribal lands just give him more reasons to express his self-righteous indignation. If you feel that we have trespassed on tribal lands, take it up with the tribe. As you can see one person already has and no one objects.

If you really want to help native americans why don't you take an active role on the reservation. Do something about the high rate of illiteracy, alcholism, and suicide.

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quote:
Originally posted by Criminal:

What about in a casino? Can I hide a cache in an Indian casino?


 

But how would I take a picture of the find? Most casinos I know of do not allow cameras. Another one of those "stupid" laws. icon_biggrin.gif

 

If you fly like an Eagle the Turkeys don't bug you

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quote:
Originally posted by Criminal:

What about in a casino? Can I hide a cache in an Indian casino?


 

But how would I take a picture of the find? Most casinos I know of do not allow cameras. Another one of those "stupid" laws. icon_biggrin.gif

 

If you fly like an Eagle the Turkeys don't bug you

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quote:
Originally posted by dmorris:

I am interested in this new pastime however, I do have some concerns. I have noticed several caches on Native reservations in AZ. This is not acceptable. First it is tresspassing! Second, how would you like me to list a waypoint in your backyard? I am also concerned about caches that send people to archaeological sites. As benign as this pastime may seem, most arch sites would do better with less visitation. As much as I would like to believe that all geocachers are respectful, odds are this is not the case. Search on with respect, please!


 

first, your first and second points are the same point worded differently. second, both the statement and question make the same point. and third, to my understanding of how a reservation works back yard should be replaced with town. (though i could be wrong, im not an expert) however i have been raised around the culture, been to many a pow wow in my youth (one of my fonder memories, i was hoping to go to a camp meeting with my father whos best friend is native american and i believe on the tribal council, dont ask me which tribe, hes my fathers friend not mine, but the aforementioned trip aint happening for financial reasons. icon_frown.gif ) thirdly yes if someone wanted to put a cache in my back yard that would be fine with me, it would be safe from vandals, i would get pick of the prizes and get to see all the cachers that came by. and yes for the most part cachers are friendly and respectful, i imagine if they crossed paths with someone on the reservation that had objections. they would turn around and log it so on the site, and you said they hadnt given permission not that they objected, there is a BIG difference. so i would like to know the FULL context of not giving permission. was it you called and they had no clue what you were talking about or like they were mad and going to patrol with rifels... (i hate when the farmers do this in rural areas.. i usualy hide behind a cow or something.) what exactly is meant by didnt give permission and is this verifiable by someone like me. i myself wouldnt mind visiting a reservation 1. to do my part to help as in a previous post and 2. to remember what people are capable of doing to one another out of greed and fear (without which there would be no reservations, and the land and the people would still be free.) and unless i am WAAAAY off my mark i dont think anyone would object to a chache with such a theme.

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quote:
Originally posted by dmorris:

I am interested in this new pastime however, I do have some concerns. I have noticed several caches on Native reservations in AZ. This is not acceptable. First it is tresspassing! Second, how would you like me to list a waypoint in your backyard? I am also concerned about caches that send people to archaeological sites. As benign as this pastime may seem, most arch sites would do better with less visitation. As much as I would like to believe that all geocachers are respectful, odds are this is not the case. Search on with respect, please!


 

first, your first and second points are the same point worded differently. second, both the statement and question make the same point. and third, to my understanding of how a reservation works back yard should be replaced with town. (though i could be wrong, im not an expert) however i have been raised around the culture, been to many a pow wow in my youth (one of my fonder memories, i was hoping to go to a camp meeting with my father whos best friend is native american and i believe on the tribal council, dont ask me which tribe, hes my fathers friend not mine, but the aforementioned trip aint happening for financial reasons. icon_frown.gif ) thirdly yes if someone wanted to put a cache in my back yard that would be fine with me, it would be safe from vandals, i would get pick of the prizes and get to see all the cachers that came by. and yes for the most part cachers are friendly and respectful, i imagine if they crossed paths with someone on the reservation that had objections. they would turn around and log it so on the site, and you said they hadnt given permission not that they objected, there is a BIG difference. so i would like to know the FULL context of not giving permission. was it you called and they had no clue what you were talking about or like they were mad and going to patrol with rifels... (i hate when the farmers do this in rural areas.. i usualy hide behind a cow or something.) what exactly is meant by didnt give permission and is this verifiable by someone like me. i myself wouldnt mind visiting a reservation 1. to do my part to help as in a previous post and 2. to remember what people are capable of doing to one another out of greed and fear (without which there would be no reservations, and the land and the people would still be free.) and unless i am WAAAAY off my mark i dont think anyone would object to a chache with such a theme.

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quote:
Originally posted by dmorris:

Unfortunately, I do know that the Nations in question have not given permission for anyone to travel off road as would be required in such cases as "Rattlers Art Gallery". I only address this for the sake of those who don't realize that you do need permission to travel 'off road' on Indian Reservations and that many areas such as those with PETROGLYPHS (no pictographs here)are considered sacred by the Native people. Just because there is a road going that way doesn't mean you can (or should) travel it. [Old Indian Saying].


 

I think that in general geocachers are great in respecting the area around where caches are placed. (Cache in, Trash Out) Also look how many logs there has been in the past year and a half to the "Rattlers Art Gallery" cache. just 15 logs. That doesn't seem like geocachers would add to much traffic to the area than there probly already is.

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quote:
Originally posted by magellan315:

TROLL ALERT!!!!

Just check this guys profile, no caches found yet. After the guy with the machette and the red meat theory, we should recognize these people for who they are...


 

Hey, this is the "getting Started" forum... he COULD be legit and we should give him the benefit of the doubt. He raises a legitimate concerns that should be addressed.

 

Bear & Ting

 

I thought I was a little off, then I looked at my GPS and discovered I accurate to 12 ft.

 

Geocachers don't NEED to ask for directions!

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I think a cache here in Idaho had a cache moved because the "Indian Nation" was racist. Meaning, Indians can walk around, but non indians can't get out of the car to change a dadgum tire.

 

They tried a "non Indian tax" and that was struck down by the courts.

 

Personally I don't have a dadgum pedigree and I could be 25% Indian of some nameless tribe back east, thanks to a closed adoption. I would have no problem 'trespassing' where indians are free to walk around.

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quote:
Originally posted by magellan315:

TROLL ALERT!!!!

Just check this guys profile, no caches found yet. After the guy with the machette and the red meat theory, we should recognize these people for who they are...


 

I rather enjoyed trolling both those discussions. I though my replies to the trolls were both mundane, yet blaise... putrid, while remaining flacid; oppulent - yet obtuse!

 

--majicman

 

(Always trade UP in both quantity and quality and Geocaches will be both self-sustaining and self-improving!)

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In particular the reservations in western and south central NY (primarily Seneca). I have never been challenged when I was hiking on reservation lands. Tourism is a MAJOR source of revenue for the res. The only thing I see is a seperate requirement for hunting and fishing licenses on reservation lands. I worked closely with the St Regis tribe Indian health servce and the best information I could come up with is that there was no objection to hiking. Once again hunting and fishing licenses required.

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