Jump to content

You are littering!


Guest nolitter

Recommended Posts

Guest DrewG

Littering is defined as:

 

v. lit·tered, lit·ter·ing, lit·ters. v. tr.

1. To give birth to (a litter).

 

2. To make untidy by discarding rubbish carelessly: Selfish picnickers litter the beach with food wrappers.

 

3. To scatter about: littered towels all over the locker room.

 

4. To supply (animals) with litter for bedding or floor covering.

 

I'm guessing you're referring to the second sense, but I'd have to disagree. We are neither discarding things, nor are we placing rubbish. These are functional items meant to be taken by others, not trash. These things are placed very carefully with the object being that they are NOT easily found or noticed, so careless is not a good descriptor either. And since they are hidden, in what way are we making anything untidy? Based on the caches that I have seen so far, the cachers have taken steps to make sure that the natural beauty of the area is not disturbed by the placement of the cache and, to go one step further, often they are placed with the intention of leading people to an especially interesting and beautiful place.

 

With that said, it is possible that not all caches and geocachers are being considerate or tidy. As with any human undertaking, there are some who are less than tidy about their business, but I believe the recent "Cache In, Trash Out" campaign is a step in the right direction. If you see something that looks like trash, I'd suggest you take it up with the cache placer (whose email address is generally in the listing for the cache) and have them either clean up a bit or move the cache to a more appropriate place. Making broad and incorrect generalizations about an entire group of people doesn't help and puts everyone on the defensive rather than helping to find a solution to the problem.

Link to comment
Guest Moun10Bike

I completely disagree with your assessment. Just because something manmade is placed outside does not mean that it is "litter" (which by definition is discarded trash). Do you consider trail signs to be "litter?" Geocaches serve much the same purpose, in that they lead people to outdoor discoveries. They are not discarded, but are regularly maintained (not to mention hidden from view). I am of the school that believes that anything that gets people off the couch and outside fosters appreciation of the out-of-doors, which in turn means nothing but positives for the environment.

 

There is a movement now for geocachers to pick up trash on the way to and from each cache that they visit, as well as to place a garbage bag in each cache that they hide for this purpose. Have you seen the "Cache In, Trash Out" logo on the geocaching home page? Have you read any of the topics on these forums that discuss environmental concerns? Or is your comment a unresearched, knee-jerk reaction? I think that if you spent time here and got to learn more about what geocaching entails, your opinion would change.

Link to comment
Guest dogpile

Well, I have to disagree. When me and my family go looking for or setting a cache we always bring plastic bags and pick up trash on the trail that was already there. Seems like we do more good than harm.

Link to comment
Guest nolitter

OH PLEASE!

 

Call it whatever you want but leaving these little "treasures" for people to find is just like leaving garbage - I say tomato you say tomahto.....It doesn't matter if you "hide" it. Next time I see a "cache" ie. garbage - I will dispose of it properly.

 

I'm glad you pick up junk along the trails - I do too. I just don't understand how you can justify your junk oh, excuse me, "cache".

I've seen people throw things in between rocks (hidden) because they are too lazy to carry them out. You are making an effort to leave junk - jeez!

 

And no, signs are not the same thing!

Link to comment
Guest Moun10Bike

You are very loose with your definitions -- first "litter" and now "junk." The term "junk" is reserved for discarded materials, and only in the most inflammatory way could you construe a cache to be the same thing.

 

In fact, the inflammatory nature of your posts would indicate that you have no desire for meaningful dialogue on this matter. I would hope that you could be more open-minded. I would furthermore challenge you to look at the many positives involved in this activity, rather than focusing on an issue upon which we disagree and that seems to anger you for the sole reason that it does not fit your personal view of what people should be doing in the outdoors.

Link to comment
Guest Farqhuarson

once again, he's just a troll. even possibly this *matt fellow under a different login. dont worry about it. he obviously doesnt really care, case in point the Cache in Trash Out, was simply discarded by him.

 

ask if he has any problems with letterboxing? or if he even knows what letterboxing is? what else he does in his "grand enviromental concerns" that allows him to denegrade people here so other than his supposed claim that he "carries trash out"? what proof of that is there other than he comes flying in with flames ready? he's nothing. dont worry about him. just do what you were doing because you know what you are doing is more than him.

 

which isnt much because i would wager that he is no "enviromentalist" but rather just a troll.

Link to comment
Guest Cape Cod Cache

Funny thing about 'trash', archaeologists seem to love it. In Boston, there is a major hiway project going on known as the 'Big Dig'. There have been great insights made into the daily life of Colonial American by finding the cast off items, even from the bottoms of former out-houses. Old dumps in rural areas have stuff like old bottles,belt buckles, broken tools etc. which are invaluable to hisorians. Too bad that they came from invading Europeans bent on destroying North America. Is there a difference if it's a pile of shells and pottery shards with the occasional broken stone or bone tool? I guess if it's called a minden it's OK...Get a grip, we're leaving a token for others in places we hold dear to our selves that we'd like to share with others, not random littering. So going on a pious rampage to 'seek and destroy' caches that are properly placed makes you a vandal and a thief. Live to your own standards, but don't force them on others, history proves that ends up badly.

Post Script: how do you manage to be on-line in a whole earth yurt? solar power ? and what about the phone line? At least Ted Kazinski used a manual typewriter.

Link to comment
Guest cybersanford

May I suggest we do not continue with this thread, this NOLITTER guy does not even have the guts to leave any of his information such as location or email. So why waste our valuable cache hunting and placing time on this guy and his subject. He is just trying to get your goat. And from the sound of the hacked off cachers he is just about to do that. Let this thread die and so will his goofy idea of fun.

Link to comment
Guest daviskw

You folks are just letting Matt....I mean nolitter bait you. He just likes to flame people and then giggle at their response. I'm sure that says something about how he feels about himself but rather than analyze him I think I?ll ignore him and people like him.

 

Butch

Link to comment
Guest Quinnow

i vote that jeremy remove this thread due to if left it only serves his purpose of being heard. I say we don't tolerate this, any other votes? after all he doesn't even have the courtesy to show himself.

 

------------------

Quinn Stone

Rochester, NY.14616

www.Navicache.com

Link to comment
Guest jeremy

I think that it's a valid concern, and the resposes are very good. We may not be able to convert the person who initiated this thread, but others who are more capable of real discussion can understand our good intentions.

 

Deleting it won't make it go away.

 

Jeremy

Link to comment
Guest Mike_Teague

ny ACTUAL good we do is outweighed by the PERCIEVED bad we cause.. period! There will be no changing of minds in this matter, one way or another..

 

If the "next time" he finds a cache (as if he's ever stumbled upon one to begin with), he'll remove it.. unlikely, unless he's out there lookin' for em... I hope he cleans up all the wild animal excrement as well!

 

if you want to see the thread die, dont contribute to it.. I personally dont mind! I find these discussions quite entertaining..

Link to comment
Guest streamer

I think that when we place a cache, we have the responsiblity to maintain that cache. We need to monitor it's location, pick up real litter, and remove the cache when a cache "trail" starts to appear. We most act responsibly! Otherwise, we could be considered just littering if we leave it unattended with no concerns for the cache or it's location.

Link to comment
Guest Quinnow

His comments are not valid in the least. He is saying that if he finds a cache he will destroy it. he has taken it to himself to be judge and jury, and for a person like this who has already convinced himself that he is right and the other 1000 people here not.

I am also certain that this can be someone who is no more than a mere child, those comments he has made prove this to me.

Best thing that could be done is to block his IP or whatever needs to be done to wash him from the board. its people like him that will ruin this sport by getting a GPS for the only reason of finding caches and destroying them. If this is to happen then nobody will trust information on the site in fear that it would be a waste of time to go out just to find a busted up cache or none at all. As usual, this is my opinion and I feel that everyone is entitled to one, but the line was crossed when he made the threat to destroy caches, thus I feel he loses his rights to any opinions he wants to express here.

 

------------------

Quinn Stone

Rochester, NY.14616

www.Navicache.com

Link to comment
Guest Quinnow

No...but at the same time it won't help him in finding them either. I expressed my views and will move on...I just feel that a cheek turned on people like this will only make things worse. But with luck he has said his mind and will lay low. But if not?

quote:
Originally posted by Mike_Teague:

erasing his messages and/or booting him from the forums is going to magically stop him from destroying caches?

 


 

 

------------------

Quinn Stone

Rochester, NY.14616

www.Navicache.com

Link to comment
Guest dogpile

Personally I don't think "NoLitter" is smart enough to use a GPS or even find a cache. He is just a flamer looking for attention. Stop replying to him and he will go away as they all do....

Link to comment
Guest Boromir

The following statement assumes the cache is placed with the permission of the owner (or other responsible person/organization) of the property it is on. I would like to think everyone is taking this step before placing a cache (this is what is holding up the caches I have planned). Without this permission we are quickly into 'Abandoned Property' territory and this may not apply.

 

As I see it, the cache and contents are the property of the person who placed it. Via the game we are making a contract for the trade of an item from the searcher for one of the items in our cache. Anyone who does any of the following to such a cache:

 

- removing some/all the cache items (except when doing a valid trade)

- destroying/damaging the cache or contents

- moving the cache

 

must be breaking some law. (theft or vandalism perhaps?) Any law enforcement officers/lawyers here who can confirm this?

 

I am not saying that we should go running to the police every time a cache disappears, I am sure they have more important cases, but this would certainly seem to indicate our caches as private property rather than trash. I am not a lawyer, so maybe I am completely wrong about this, but it certainly seems like sound logic to me.

Link to comment
Guest Philippe23

ome on TV. icon_smile.gif I think that if there is no identification and/or statement of the fact that people can't move the cache and that they aren't allowed to loot it, you'd be out of luck. I was actually just wondering about last night how long it will be before there's a EULA on caches.

 

"By openning this container ('cache') you agree to the terms and conditions of this agreement...."

Link to comment
Guest Philippe23

ome on TV. icon_smile.gif I think that if there is no identification and/or statement of the fact that people can't move the cache and that they aren't allowed to loot it, you'd be out of luck. I was actually just wondering about last night how long it will be before there's a EULA on caches.

 

"By openning this container ('cache') you agree to the terms and conditions of this agreement...."

Link to comment
Guest Mike_Teague

Since the beginning, I've always considered my caches to be public domain once I put 'em out there...

 

I also completely disagree with the notion that human beings treading on land causes "environmental impact"...

 

If it's ok for a non-human to walk where he wishes, it's ok for a human to do the same...

Link to comment
Guest Boromir

quote:
Originally posted by Philippe23:

As to Boromir legal questions, I'm not a lawyer, but I watch some on TV. icon_smile.gif I think that if there is no identification and/or statement of the fact that people can't move the cache and that they aren't allowed to loot it, you'd be out of luck. I was actually just wondering about last night how long it will be before there's a EULA on caches.


 

I see where you are coming from here, but I disagree with part of your conclusion. I agree we need to mark our caches so they can not accidentally be seen as trash. Perhaps we should extend the information on the outside from just the 'www.geocaching.com' to also include a 'please do not move' and/or 'more information inside' (so they read the info form). As for the NEED for such a statement to enforce ones property rights, I don't think that is the case. If someone leaves their quad on the side of a trail while they climb a mountain, and someone siphons the gas or trashes/steals the quad, I suspect the 'but it didn't say I couldn't' defense would not work well.

 

Tricky legal issues debated by a couple people who watch a lot of lawyers on TV, take this with a grain (or bag) of salt everyone...

 

[This message has been edited by Boromir (edited 04-07-2001).]

Link to comment
Guest Boromir

quote:
Originally posted by Philippe23:

As to Boromir legal questions, I'm not a lawyer, but I watch some on TV. icon_smile.gif I think that if there is no identification and/or statement of the fact that people can't move the cache and that they aren't allowed to loot it, you'd be out of luck. I was actually just wondering about last night how long it will be before there's a EULA on caches.


 

I see where you are coming from here, but I disagree with part of your conclusion. I agree we need to mark our caches so they can not accidentally be seen as trash. Perhaps we should extend the information on the outside from just the 'www.geocaching.com' to also include a 'please do not move' and/or 'more information inside' (so they read the info form). As for the NEED for such a statement to enforce ones property rights, I don't think that is the case. If someone leaves their quad on the side of a trail while they climb a mountain, and someone siphons the gas or trashes/steals the quad, I suspect the 'but it didn't say I couldn't' defense would not work well.

 

Tricky legal issues debated by a couple people who watch a lot of lawyers on TV, take this with a grain (or bag) of salt everyone...

 

[This message has been edited by Boromir (edited 04-07-2001).]

Link to comment
Guest Boromir

quote:
Originally posted by Mike_Teague:

Since the beginning, I've always considered my caches to be public domain once I put 'em out there...


 

That is about how I saw it when I first looked at geocaching, but I think if we want to have some legal claim (rather than just moral) that our legally placed caches should not be tampered with, they need to belong to someone. Perhaps they should belong to the geocaching group as a whole, rather than being public domain? Just thinking out loud, as I said before I am not sure how this legal stuff really works.

Link to comment
Guest Quinnow

After extensive hours of waiting and watching a cache site. I was able to snap off a couple of pictures of a fellow that was later learned to be the notorious "No Litter". If you wish to view him so that you are able to keep an eye out in your area, you can see him posted in the "morgans Adventure cache page in NY.

Or you can use this link http://www.geocaching.com/cache/images/1566_700.jpg

 

I warn you all, he does not seem like a fellow you want to mess with! icon_biggrin.gif

 

------------------

Quinn Stone

Rochester, NY.14616

www.Navicache.com

Link to comment
Guest Quinnow

After extensive hours of waiting and watching a cache site. I was able to snap off a couple of pictures of a fellow that was later learned to be the notorious "No Litter". If you wish to view him so that you are able to keep an eye out in your area, you can see him posted in the "morgans Adventure cache page in NY.

Or you can use this link http://www.geocaching.com/cache/images/1566_700.jpg

 

I warn you all, he does not seem like a fellow you want to mess with! icon_biggrin.gif

 

------------------

Quinn Stone

Rochester, NY.14616

www.Navicache.com

Link to comment
Guest fiser

If we really feel nothing good comes of these discussions we could ignore posts like these and let them sink quietly to the bottom of the list.

 

We've done this "I think geocaching is bad" vs. "I don't think geocaching is bad" routine before.

Link to comment
Guest fiser

quote:
Originally posted by Boromir:

As I see it, the cache and contents are the property of the person who placed it. Via the game we are making a contract for the trade of an item from the searcher for one of the items in our cache. Anyone who does any of the following to such a cache:

 

- removing some/all the cache items (except when doing a valid trade)

- destroying/damaging the cache or contents

- moving the cache must be breaking some law. (theft or vandalism perhaps?) Any law enforcement officers/lawyers here who can confirm this?

.


 

From the perspective of a law student nearing graduation:

 

If you have a contract between geocaching members like you described, the only people bound by it are geocaching members. If someone not party to the contract (everyone who's not a part of geocaching) does something to the cache you have no claim against them.

 

*** You might have a tresspass claim under the conditions you describe, but the biggest problem with any policy/contract we come up with (and many regular laws for that matter), is enforcement. So someone takes/moves/raids your cache, who can you finger and how can you prove it?

Link to comment
Guest Mike_Teague

Who owns the property where you put your cache?

 

If some geocacher puts a cache on my private land, and some third party goes and removes it, does the cacher have a claim about the so-called theft? I don't think so... In fact, I hope not (who knows, these days!) I would wish to reserve the right to press charges of trespassing on the both of them!

 

Apply this principle to so-called "public (government) property"

 

"You" do not own public land, "We" do...

Just like "You" cannot declare war, but "We" do...

 

Collectivism is nice yeah!?! "We" make the rules for "Our" lands..

 

Lobby your government representatives that you've ceded so much power to!!

Link to comment

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...