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Gun Owners: What would you recommend?


DanIAm

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I am not jumping into this decision with both feet before I test the water. However, I am contemplating making the purchase of a handgun. I currently do not own any guns. I have however fired excessive amounts of ammo on quite a variety of handguns all within an indoor range. I've been shooting indoors for 7 years now, all rentals. This gets costly, but that's beside the point. Now I may be off here, again I am not an expert. My core use for such an item is protection against mountain lions, wolves, bobcats, and bears. Now I realize I'm not going to drop a bear with a handgun but I am sure or at least I think I am that if applied properly it should be effective in getting it to release my leg from its jaw. I don't think I need a .50 cal Desert Eagle, but I don't want to go out there with something barely big enough to fit in my hand. I live in a state in which if I got the cash, I can legally make the purchase of a firearm in 20 minutes time. I have no criminal record period. I would be then interested in taking carry and conceal classes for the sole purpose of carrying while out in the woods.

 

What firearm would you recommend?

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A little more information might help, but then again, you already have experience with handguns so why not choose something you know you like and can use effectively?

 

Some points you might want to consider:

 

1. Do you prefer semi-autos or revolvers?

2. You might want something that is corrosion resistant, maybe polymer or stainless

3. How large/strong of a person are you? That might dictate how large & heavy of a handgun you want to tote around. Also if you end up getting a CCW permit, a large handgun may be tougher to conceal.

4. Caliber. Are you used to a lot of recoil? Some have a hard time with recoil without instruction and frequent range time.

 

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I am not currently a gun owner but have been. It seems to me you need something that would allow you to practice usefull gun controland Hit what you aim at.

 

In your many hours of practice you must have used seberal different wepons. My advice would be chooses the one that you can use to the best affect.

 

Good luck and have fun.

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Forget that bit about protection from mtn. lions, bobcats, etc. Not at all likely to happen. Maybe a bear but doubtful on that. Most animals avoid humans unless you get them cornered.

The real threat will more than likely come from a two legged snake. Therefore, I would consider something in the .45 class if recoil is not a problem for you.

I highly recommend take a camera if you get that close to a wild cat or wolf. You could get some great pictures if you're quick with the camera, because they will not stand around and wait on you to get your camera and gear into action.

John of 2oldfarts

 

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I like the comments 2 Old farts made. I would add that indeed you should be more concerned whith snakes. If you are in an area that has black bears...they are usually not a threat. Grizzly is another issue. I would indeed look at a 45 or 44 mag if you are in griz country. Then for the snakes, you can buy snake shot for what ever Caliber you get.

Happy Trails

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You mention your extensive rental time and lots of rounds fired.During your shooting did you ever practice stoppage drills? Having a gun to protect yourself and not knowing how to get it unjammed in a hurry is not a good thing. You are better off with a stick.Auto-loaders are nice, they carry lots of bullets, but when you have a stovepipe or a double feed can you get back in the fight quickly(tap and rack?). Revolvers may only hold 6, but when a round goes click hopefully the next pull of the trigger the guns goes bang. If you get good and fast at clearing stoppages get an auto if not buy a wheel gun.

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quote:
I would add that indeed you should be more concerned whith snakes.

 

I think he meant people. Besides snakes are rarely a threat, unless they are poisionous and you accidently step on it, or next to it. At which point the gun will be too late anyway. If you shoot a snake just because its in the way, you could find yourself in front of a judge facing a hefty fine if its a protected species.

 

Personally I'd be more concerned about a mountain lion in areas where they're prevelant. But since they tend to quietly stalk their prey, the gun will likely be useless, unless you keep it in your hand all the time.

 

Grizzlies maybe. You'll usually see them before they charge you. But it would take a very well placed shot to bring one down before he gets to you and you'd have to be one cool cookie to aim accurately at a charging grizz. Wolves and bobcats aren't an issue. If you see a bobcat, consider yourself very lucky and I'd only worry about wolves if I was a rabbit, or a sick, lame or baby deer.

 

As 2oldfarts said, people are more of a danger and even that danger is a small one. You're more likely to be struck by lightning, than murdered by a stranger in the backcountry. The one thing I would want a gun for is for protection against rabid animals in areas where rabies is epidemic.

 

"Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, he'll sit in a boat and drink beer all day" - Dave Barry

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I thank everyone for their contributions. To reiterate I have had more hours then I can count indoors. This of course being a calm no threat facility. My preferred handgun when it comes to my accuracy and ability is the 9mm Beretta with the longer barrel. I shoot very consistent and without any formal training do quite well. I favor the steel plates and this is what most of my practice has been on. Obviously I have never been under pressure when it was time to pull the trigger. I am not an expert, I know this. I am not a sharpshooter, I know this too. But I do want a sense of protection. I stand 6’ with a large build. Recoil on the Beretta doesn’t seem to bother me, but the indoor range doesn’t allow rapid fire. Therefore, I am not sure how my aim will be when I need to squeeze off more then a round or two in a moments notice. For some reason I thought the Beretta was overkill. This is what prompted me to start this thread being that I would assume I am not the only one who has thought of this idea to carry while in the backwoods.

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It does make some people feel better to carry a weapon in the backcountry, but unless you have it readily accessable, it's useless. A gun in your pack is about as good as no gun at all.

 

Personally, I don't see the point. I've been roaming the backcountry for 25 years and have NEVER encountered a situation where I wished I had a gun. Over the same period of time, I found myself wishing I had a gun probably some half a dozen times in the "civilized" world. The only time I fear for my safety in the backcountry, is during sever T-storms. Other than that, I feel much safer there than than on the streets of Newark, NYC, or Paterson.

 

"Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, he'll sit in a boat and drink beer all day" - Dave Barry

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Find out what the local law allows regarding carry. After you have an idea, you'll know if they'll even allow you to do what you want.

 

Basic rules of thumb: The shorter the barrel, the greater the perceived recoil. The heavier the bullet, the greater the perceived recoil. Heavier, slower bullets penetrate deeper with less expansion. Lighter, faster bullets penetrate less with greater expansion.

 

I'll avoid the revolver/auto debate, with one exception: In my time training people to shoot handguns as part of the concealed cary and security training I've done, I find that most people shoot semi-auto pistols better than they do revolvers.

 

My advice, based on everybody else's advice on the subject in the past 20 years:

 

You've shot enough to know what is comfortable. Get that gun in the highest caliber you can shoot most accurately. From the bottom up, approximately: .44 Special (165 grain JHP), .38 Special (158 grain +p or +p+ JHP), 45 Colt (200 grain JHP), 9mm (124/125 grain +p JHP), 40 SW (150 or 165 grain JHP), 45 ACP (165 grain JHP +p), 10mm (150 grain JHP), 400 CorBon (150 gr JHP), 357 Sig (125 gr JHP), .357 Magnum (125 grain JHP), .41 Mag (170 grain JHP), .44 Mag (165 grain JHP).

 

Those all deliver between 1100 to 1400 foot-pounds pressure, sufficient to deliver enough power to... um... "do the trick." "+p" means that higher pressure is used to move the bullet faster to arrive at that "magic range" between 1000 and 1400 fps. Heavier bullets would give better protection against something heavy-boned like a bear. I wouldn't pack anything lighter than a 44 Magnum if grizzly/brown bear are a real concern, with the ideal being a .375 H&H Magnum. For more realistic concerns, lighter bullets would stay inside the organism in question, speeding up the shut-down process and avoiding a lot of liability issues.

 

For the best class you can take, go to www.ayoob.com and see if a Judicious Use class is scheduled in your area. It is well-worth the investment, and provides competent guidance on laws and restrictions with regard to use of force.

 

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quote:
Originally posted by BrianSnat:

It does make some people feel better to carry a weapon in the backcountry, but unless you have it readily accessable, it's useless. A gun in your pack is about as good as no gun at all.

 

Personally, I don't see the point. I've been roaming the backcountry for 25 years and have NEVER encountered a situation where I wished I had a gun. Over the same period of time, I found myself wishing I had a gun probably some half a dozen times in the "civilized" world. The only time I fear for my safety in the backcountry, is during sever T-storms. Other than that, I feel much safer there than than on the streets of Newark, NYC, or Paterson.

 


 

I agree that I feel safer "out there," however I've run across the "criminal element" out there more than once, especially when camping (for whatever reason).

 

I've watched guys scoping out our rig quite a few times. Nothing special about the truck, but I don't relish being stuck way the hell up in the mountains for a few days because somebody hoisted my battery, drained my fuel tank or shot the truck up for kicks. With poor cell coverage, rare traffic and cold nights, that could end very badly.

 

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I own several handguns including revolvers and semi autos. My S&W .44 magnum always works well - ie Dirty Harry style. But it much too big. The .357 magnum is my wife's favorite. My best all arounf handgun is the 40 caliber semi auto. I have the H&K USP. It is relatively small, easy to maintain and has enough punch to stop anything but not knock you down or cause your aim to jump around. It is the handgun of choice for Navy SEALS and the Delta Force. It is advertised workable to -40 degrees F and uo to 130 degrees. Very relaible and holds about 14 rounds in a magazine. It is also specially coated.

 

Just my thoughts but don't take one geocaching.

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If you're looking for a weapon that won't make you lean to 'that side', go for something in the Glock/Sig Sauer arena. A good sub-compact Glock (32C) is a compensated .40-cal that will reduce recoil via venting in the slide/barrel. You can throw the Glock23 mags in (will stick out just a tad more than the finger extension, but still with a comfy grip), and gives you 15+1 as opposed to 9+1. Downside is, $50 per mag is what the higher cap mags will run you.

 

Brian

Team A.I.

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Well I have been an Outdoorsman all of my life and have never yet seen the time when I "had" to have a weapon.

I am an expert marksman,and also have shot hundreds of thousands of rounds.

This is the main reason I like Geocaching,you can go to the Woods and have a good time without all that hype about needing protection.

 

I never carry a weapon Geocaching,for many reasons.

1.Have dominion over all the animals.They are as scared of you as you are of them.

2.When you are intimidating expect to get intimidated.

etc.etc.

 

But I still believe that when guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns,I guess I will always be an outlaw.

 

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quote:
Originally posted by GeocachingGuy:

I don't think I need a .50 cal Desert Eagle, but I don't want to go out there with something barely big enough to fit in my hand.


 

Hey what's wrong with the Desert Eagle?? If you are going to be packing, then go packing.

Actually, I prefer the Glocks because they have compact models in 9mm and 40cal. Alot of police officers carry Glocks as their service weapon or as their off-duty weapon; so if its good enough for them...

 

frog.gif Free your mind and the rest will follow frog.gif

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Whatever you choose, I would recommend as much time at the range with it as possible. Get familiar with it. Do yourself a favor, and get a license to carry it, and NEVER leave home without it. Just yesterday we were driving home from Reno and this guy kept jacking with us on the highway, playing some cat and mouse game, out in the middle of the desert. I mean out in the MIDDLE OF NOWHERE. Luckily I had my Glock 9mm with me, with an extra clip. We ended up losing him, but you can bet that we felt a lot safer having an option instead of just being at his mercy (or lack of it). I am not letting anything bad like that happen to the people I care about. Criminals don't make appointments. I am not saying you should be paranoid and walk around scared all the time, but be ready IF and WHEN something should happen.

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If you can aquire a CCW - DO IT!!!

If you have access to a gun right now and can carry it - DO IT!!!

 

It is a tired old saying... "a .22 in hand is better than a .45 at home"... but it still rings true.

 

In the mean time, keep doing what you are doing right now, asking questions and research. If your at the club and you see some one using a different gun/caliber, ask them to tell you about it. Chances are they will insist you take it for a test drive.

 

IMHO - If you can handle something bigger than the 9mm you are used to, then consider something .45 or bigger. 9mm is fine for two legged critters but I think I would be going for at least a .45acp for anything up to black bears. Grizzlies might take a little extra persuading icon_wink.gif

 

What ever you decide on, PRACTICE! lots.

 

My wife always thought I was paranoid for carrying a gun in the bush...until we ran into a wolverine! Now she really knows why.

 

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I'm a Canadian with a gun... AND I'M KEEPING IT!!! - Me

He who allows oppression, shares the crime. - Erasmus Darwin 1789

"Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet."

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quote:
Originally posted by Criminal:

quote:
I agree that I feel safer "out there," however I've run across the_ "criminal element" _out there more than once, especially when camping (for whatever reason).

 

No, I don't remember running into you. But that sounds like a good name for a new cache....

 


 

You're Criminal Prime, not merely Criminal Element.

 

Maybe the cache could be placed in a bad part of town, in one of those big cloth bags with the "$$" sign imprinted on the side?

 

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quote:
Originally posted by seneca:

Here's Jeremy's last word on the issue. http://ubbx.Groundspeak.com/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=5726007311&f=4016058331&m=44660336&r=97160066#9716006


 

Of course, Seneca gleefully posts this fact, because it fits within his anti-gun and anti-right-to-defend attitude. I find it ironic that this forum is suitable for dialogue about God, radios, garage sales, girls, art, jokes, music, flying, and a myriad of other things of interest to some cachers, but not firearms. Hypocrasy? I suppose. It's a big part of the reason I hardly ever post here anymore.

Jeremy, there have been plenty of other hotly debated issues on these forums that never went un-censored. Why this?

 

Golly Seneca, I guess you win.......

 

Minnesota Geocaching Association

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan2:

quote:
...and gives you 15+1 as opposed to 9+1...

 

Brian

Team A.I.


 

Just curious. What situations do you see needing the extra 6 rounds while geocaching?

 

Alan


 

Well, the way I see it, this thread wasn't started solely with geocaching in mind, hence my recommendation and the suggestion of the high-cap magazines. I'll present the obvious to answer your question though...self defense. I'm confident enough in my shooting ability to believe that I would be safe with 19 rounds on my person if I ended up in a gunbattle. However, more is far better than not enough, and I like the idea of having 31 rounds instead just to keep the odds in my favor that the gunbattle will end and I still have ammunition left. Unless I'm severely/mortally wounded or out of ammo, I'm not going to stop shooting until I've stopped the bad guy.

 

Just a few weeks ago, I was caching at an industrial area north of work. The cache was at a business owned by a cacher, and I was looking around in an area my GPS pointed, when some drunk college student started yelling at me from an apartment complex about .25-miles away or so. After I listened to his rant for a minute or so, I went to ignoring him because he was literally blowing hot air. About 5 or 6 minutes later, a car comes screaming around the corner and slides to a stop with 4 large jock-types climbing out of the car. Fortunately, they were on the WRONG side of a gated canal that was rather deep and wide. This didn't stop them from making threats to come over and 'kick my ***' and 'kill me', with one yelling to another to get a club out of the trunk. Knowing I was in a position to be trapped in the area (they could have made it to me before I was out of the area). It should be important to note that not a word was uttered from me the entire time at any of the goons. Instead, after the 'kill' threat, I simply drew my weapon and pointed it at the 4 of them, with the light of my Inova light shining on it enough to present what I was holding (it was really dark). A quick "he's got a gun!" later, and the car took off, with me never seeing them again. I holstered the weapon and went back to caching.

 

While 19 rounds would most likely have been enough in a more direct confrontation, performing a tactical or stress reload and having only 9 rounds left in the second mag isn't as comforting as 15, especially with knowing that I only fired 9+1 before having to reload (or less if doing a tactical reload).

 

Incidentally, I returned to this cache exactly 2 weeks later after logging a DNF the first time. While there, I saw the same group of goons going into their apartment. Every single one of them saw me from a distance, but the lesson learned 2-weeks prior must have set in, as they didn't utter a word, and neither did I. The cache was found/logged and I was on my way.

 

Brian

Team A.I.

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Why more rounds? If you should happen to need them, more is better. I really can't think of any situation where I would say to myself. "Boy am I glad that once I needed to use that gun I'm glad I had less ammo".

 

As for all the comments about "Gee you don't need and it's not likley" Poppycock.

 

I won't stake my life on "Not Likley". When growing up a 44 was the standard 'small' side arm. Not because you 'wouldn't need it' but in case you did. Bear attacks were common enough to where it wasn't the friend of a friend who read a story in the newspaper. No, it was someone you knew and they could point at the scars.

 

Given that; even though I don't live in that part of the country anymore, it's still my instinct, just as I will always have a 4x4 at my disposal.

 

Sure, odds are the bear will wander off and you will never see the mountain lion at all. But it's not those odds you are preparing for.

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quote:
Originally posted by seneca:

Here's Jeremy's last word on the issue.

 

_I have never in my life learned._

 


 

I made a bet with myself that it wouldn't be long before you know who above jumped in with some liberal anti-your rights comment. I lost. I expected it would be in the first 10 posts.

 

To answer your question, whatever works best for you is your best choice. If you like the Beretta, it is a good choice. A .40 is better than a 9mm. The stopping power page rates the 9mm at 91%, the .45 at 94%, and the .40 at 96%. In the hands of a good marksman, any of those would do.

 

Look for a pistol that is a natural pointer. By that I mean, one that lines up with a good sight picture as you bring it up. Try this.

 

Close your eyes. Bring the pistol up to position. Open your eyes, and without moving any more, look at the sight alignment. Do this a few dozen times with each pistol. If one or two stand out as natural pointers, they are good choices. If one or two stand out as bad pointers, avoid them.

 

In stress-fire situations, you should not be worrying about sight alignment and safety on or off, that much should be automatic. Your only real worry should be threat assesment and making the shoot/no shoot decision. If you spend too much time aligning the sights and checking the safety, you have less time to assess the threat.

 

One other trick. Learn to draw your weapon up to nearly chest level, then thrust it forward at the target. Many shooters will swing it up at arms length, and it takes longer to get on target as you overshoot and need to correct it back down as your arms swing past the target. By thrusting forward, you are naturally pointing right and there is much less time spent correcting for overshoot. Just an old trick, but it works.

 

Be interested in hearing what you pick.

 

Mike. Desert_Warrior (aka KD9KC).

El Paso, Texas.

 

Citizens of this land may own guns. Not to threaten their neighbors, but to ensure themselves of liberty and freedom.

 

They are not assault weapons anymore... they are HOMELAND DEFENSE WEAPONS!

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quote:
Originally posted by Irvingdog:

quote:
Originally posted by seneca:

Here's Jeremy's last word on the issue. http://ubbx.Groundspeak.com/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=5726007311&f=4016058331&m=44660336&r=97160066#9716006


 

Of course, Seneca gleefully posts this fact, because it fits within his anti-gun and anti-right-to-defend attitude....


 

It is not with any glee that I post this fact. In fact some of my easiest, most satisfying debates on these forums have been on the banned subject. If you wish to redirect me (in a private e-mail) to other online forums where there is two-sided debate on the issues raised by this topic, I might very well join you there. (that’s e-talk for “Let’s take it outside, man.” icon_wink.gif)

 

I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me.

geol4.JPG

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I recently made my choice and it was a Ruger KP944DC. It's not the "best" pistol out there, but dadgum fine for the price. I didn't like the Glock's trigger at all. Plus, I'm a previous Ruger owner and am really pleased with their service and overall philosophy about gun ownership.

 

I've yet to put the first round through it, I just haven't had the time, but I've fired the 9mm version of this pistol and I was really impressed with how smooth it felt. I've tried the .40 Berretta and it was okay, but I preferred the Ruger.

 

About the only time I get to head to the range is Saturday mornings. My local range closes at 7:00pm and I get off work at 6:00pm. Then on Saturdays, the Navy qualifies and then the CCW students, so I have to get in before them.

 

As Brain illustrated in his story, most two legged critter encounters will come to a conclusion without anyone being harmed just by brandishing the weapon. He also demonstrates how to not escalate an encounter. I'm not too worried about anything in the woods as most of the time Sissy and I are talking and that gives the wild critters enough of a warning to move on.

 

CR

 

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