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Geocaching In Cities


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maybe a knee jerk reaction but what with sept 11 and now madrid might it not be an idea to keep caching out of busy towns and cities? we don't want to start panics because someone saw a strange person hiding something somewhere. we all know we're pretty harmless but the muggles don't.

better for us to keep away from towns than have someone ban us.

 

i don't know, i'm just thinking out loud. just thought it might be something for the group to ponder.

no doubt i'll be shot as a heretic!

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If you look at it another way, a busy area that would be ideal for bombing is the worst spot for a geocache. How long would the cache last before a geomuggle found it accidently or wondered what a cacher was doing and went over and looked after the cacher left?

That's one reason for virtual caches. Most places of higher population density have monuments or attractions that are worth going to see (except maybe The Shades in Ankh-Morpork) and you wouldn't be placing something that looks suspicious.

 

RichardMoore

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If I stop learning about my town.

If I stop walking and visiting historic sites.

If I stop taking photographs of public places.

If I put away my GPSr

If I volunteer to give up all my freedoms.

Then the terrorists have won.

 

I will not be afraid to carry a camera.

I will not be afraid to walk around with a GPS.

I will not be afraid to explore the nooks and crannies of the city in which I live.

I will not be afraid to exercise those rights I spent 4 years of my life trying to protect and defend.

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Maybe we should keep geocaching out of the more rural areas.

 

Lake officials seek source of explosive cache

 

By Trine Tsouderos

Tribune staff reporter

Published March 13, 2004

 

Four pounds of C-4 plastic explosive--enough to destroy four cars--was found hidden under a tarp in a farm field in northeast Lake County, officials said Friday.

 

It's not known who stashed the explosive and other military equipment, including flares and booby trap simulators, or what it was intended for, authorities said.

 

"We haven't ruled anything out," said Lake County Sheriff Gary Del Re. "We haven't ruled out gangs. We haven't ruled out terrorism. We haven't ruled out white supremacists."

 

Two men looking for deer antlers found the green tarp around 6 p.m. Thursday in unincorporated Lake County, said Del Re, who declined to release the location. The tarp covered three gunmetal-green boxes, which contained the plastic explosive, a smoke grenade, eight cluster flares and six blasting caps. The other items were four booby trap simulators, a lithium battery and an M-16 military gun cleaning kit, officials said.The puttylike C-4 was both in bars and small peanut-shaped lumps. On Friday, more than a dozen officers from the sheriff's department, Cook County Bomb Squad, FBI and the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives checked nearby fields, looking for other potential stashes.

 

Copyright © 2004, Chicago Tribune

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At first glance I agree with BONS completely.

 

However, it's not quite so clear cut as all that - dadgum, I wish it was.

The original poster has a good point too.

 

What I mean is this. There is no question that 9/11 etc. has already caused an increased awareness of the kind of thing that terrorists can achieve. And, it is right to look out for such incidents so as to subvert them in the future. I can't see that being restricted following terrorist action is completely surrendering to them. You see, it is not enough to 'not give in' - the action that is required is to BEAT THEM and to PUT A STOP to their actions. If possible, to make it so expensive in what ever currency, life, liberty or any other, that they will not be tempted to try again.

With that said, I am willing to accept that some restrictions in my movements may be required for the greater good of all - but only as long as I can see that there is a real effort to deal with the threat in the long term and in a lasting way.

 

Terrorism is a war of attrition - destructive to all and hard and expensive to win. The biggest problem might even be knowing when you have won.

 

Continuing about ones normal life (caching, whatever) is a true and admirable goal. If, however, hiding a cache in an urban area is going to cause a possible panic among those who are NOT in the know, then, there IS a risk of a ban.

 

The aim, as I see it, is NOT to merely 'continue normally despite all'. Rather, it is to defeat the cause of the terror so that we can say 'continue normally' without adding 'despite all'.

 

Bottom line, if seeing a cacher hiding a cache causes even a minor amount of hassle, due to the increased sensitivity, then that becomes a minor win for the terrorists. It's not a clear cut thing - we must each bear the situation in mind and act as we feel right.

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The contrary point to geocaching in cities is not to ban them due to 9/11, but to encourage more of them.

 

If people with GPSr's and cell phones are tromping around less used areas of their cities, they are out and about. They are also capable of pulling out their cell and giving a 3 meter circle around some suspicious structure/device/activity to police.

 

Whether or not the 911 operator can use the Lat/Long is debatable, but we have the skills, equipment, and interest to do geocaching, which takes us all over our cities. I have been to parts of Omaha, that I have either never been to, or only driven past, and this makes me a second pair of eyes watching as I buzz around finding geocaches.

 

Do we want to put them in playgrounds or elementary schools? No. None of us want to stimulate a 911 call about a stranger in the park. Do we stop all together? No. We just use good judgement.

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...if seeing a cacher hiding a cache causes even a minor amount of hassle, due to the increased sensitivity, then that becomes a minor win for the terrorists...

I don't think so. The fact that many people are very sensitive to suspicious activity may be a "minor win" for the terrorists, but when they (the terrorists) are able to dictate how we approach our normal lifestyles, that is a "major win."

 

I agree 100% with bons. B)

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Bons said it. And very well. And thank you Bons for those four years. Thank you a million times.

 

As for city caches, how could a group of 9 of us have had this much fun if it weren't for the caches placed in Central Park in New York City? Follow my links from the first cache we did to the last.

 

I prefer caches in the wild, but having made friends with cachers who live in the city, I am expanding my horizons.

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Bravo Bons!

 

I think as Geocachers we need to think about how where we place caches. I mean, don't do something stupid. As far as Geocaching goes, we need to continue what we're doing. There is nothing illegal about owning or using a GPSR, and as long as you are within the law (ie- not trespassing, etc), there should not be a problem with Geocaching. If the police want to know what you're doing, tell them- Geocaching is not illegal either.

 

If we're worried about Geocaching being confused with some terrorist activity, then we should stop all together. Cachew Nut posted the story about explosives found in a rural area. Geocachers use Ammo Cans too, and someone might find a cache and mistake it for more explosives.

 

Again, we need to exercise some sense (the longer I live, the more I believe common sense is not that common).

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While I agree with bons, and it seems like most of us do, I am a little confused. Well, maybe confused isn't the word, but...

When I'm geocaching the thought of terrorism rarely enters my mind. On my list of possible problems would be weather, traffic, poison ivy, trail conditions, things like that. Terrorist bombs are down at the bottom of the list, right before being hit by a meteor.

Am I being naive? Possibly. But what are the chances of anyone being involved in a terrorist attack? And since I have always avoided crowds and public transportation (not out of fear, I just don't like them), my chances of being one of the victims is even less.

As for placing caches in areas that could be security-sensitive, the hider should be asking permission anyway. If I go to find that cache and the police decide to question me, let them. I have nothing to hide, and I'm not doing anything illegal.

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the action that is required is to BEAT THEM and to PUT A STOP to their actions

If you want to put a stop to their actions, think of it this way.

 

Most of the good hiding spots that terrorists could use are probably already in use and being checked on a regular basis by geocachers. By finding all the best spots to hide an ammo can full of something and encouraging people to go out and look for them, we make it very hard for a terrorist to use such a location.

 

If we quit geocaching in urban areas, then those hiding spots could be used for purposes we might not appreciate.

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I compleatly agree with Bons in both of his posts. Also the fact that we can give an accurate location for suspecious activity is an added bonus.

 

89 to go to get to 1000 posts

 

PS: Anouther interesting thought.... This thread is somwhat about 9|11 and this post was number 911 for me. The thread is also somwhat about police being called about us and this was post 911 for me.

Edited by wildearth2001
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Most of the good hiding spots that terrorists could use are probably already in use and being checked on a regular basis by geocachers. By finding all the best spots to hide an ammo can full of something and encouraging people to go out and look for them, we make it very hard for a terrorist to use such a location.

 

If we quit geocaching in urban areas, then those hiding spots could be used for purposes we might not appreciate.

Can you imagine if the finder found the wrong ammo can?

"Log book missing, Took C-4, Left nitroglycerine, I always trade up" B)

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I've been to Jakarta and Bali between the two bombings. I saw a kid wearing an Osama t-shirt in the Jakarta airport. I've been to the UK at the peak of the IRA attacks. I went to Ground Zero to see for myself. I'm vacationing in NYC and DC this year. I've logged tens of thousands of air miles since 9/11 and I'm getting on an airplane again tomorrow. And..... I will gladly cache in cities.

 

The terrorist wants you to change your behavior. If you do, they win. In order for the terrorist to stop me from doing what I enjoy, he's going to have to kill me.

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The thing that many cachers have missed in this discussion is the simple fact that parks are not very high on the terrorists list of places to do their nasty business. How much impact would a headline have telling about the four trees that were killed in an explosion at the local park? There is absolutely no need to restrict activities such as caching when we don't place boxes in places that would be exposed to large numbers of people at any one time. We avoid those places because the box would be found and muggled too soon. Some people get too overworked about common everyday activities that have no relation to terrorism, but that they think are not the norm. Bons had it right.

 

Just my $.02

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There are a few strange responses to this thread. The original post was reference busy towns and cities, not parks. Also, and this is a purely personal view point, NOT a pop at anyone in particular, there seems to be a degree of naivety in the attitude to terrorists and their activities. An explosion in my local park that killed a few trees would certainly, and rightly, NOT go uncommented!

 

To enlarge:

It is NOT enough to go about ones normal activities and to say that the terrorists have not won. It is not even enough that they have not won. They have to be beaten! 'Not winning' simply means that the war is going on - 'winning' means that the war is over! I know that there are those that will see this as controversial but to win against terrorists there must be, somewhere along the line, dead terrorists. Preferably before they get into our aircraft.

 

Here is a POSSIBLE scenario.

Mr. C. Asher goes out for a day of caching in the city. As luck would have it, he is observed returning a cache to its hiding place by Mr. M. Uggle. Mr. M. decides that he has just observed something suspicious and goes off to call the police. The dispatcher sends a patrol vehicle to the scene and the officers talk to Mr. M. Mr. C. is long gone! When the officers have a look in the area where our friendly, neighborhood cacher was doing his 'suspicious actions' they see a container of some description and decide it is not a good idea to touch it. Calling back to base they arrange for a visit from the bomb squad and, in the interim, proceed to cordon off the immediate area in case this item should explode or start puffing out some nasty substance. Sometime later the bomb squad arrive and start their investigation. They discover, reasonably quickly, that the container is in no way a threat. However, it can not be left there. All of this has taken in the area of one to two hours possibly. During that time there has been a substantial disruption to normal life in that part of town. Individuals and business have had their lives disrupted to a greater or lesser degree. The rumors have started flying with the normal degree of exaggeration - bombs, anthrax, poison gas.

Mr. C. is now on the other side of town chasing another cache and is having a great day, his numbers are going up in a very satisfying way.

Later, in the evening Mr. C. arrives home tired from his exertions and heads straight off to bed, not even checking the local news channel. He drifts quickly off to sleep promising that tomorrow he will log on and post the logs for the days activities and congratulating himself that he carried on another normal day thus foiling the activities of the terrorists of the world once again.

Meanwhile, across town, Mr. M. lies in bed, and as he drifts off to sleep he congratulates himself that he did his duty as a good and observant citizen. OK, it was NOT a bomb, but it might have been, he tells him self. He thinks it is a shame that the city was so disrupted by the incident but, better that than an explosion!

The terrorists did not win against Mr. C. Asher - he carried on his normal activities on a day set aside as a caching day. In the broad view, is this a victory against terrorism?

All I am asking is that people look beyond the short sighted view and aim at winning the war against terror. If this means taking more care than otherwise to avoid suspicion then take that care. Doing so is NOT a sign of weakness. It is NOT surrendering to the terror merchants. The world will never be as it once was unless, and until, these people are all dead. They are fanatics and need to be stopped in a way that is beyond question. 'Till that day comes - continue caching, just be aware of the consequences of a few incidents like the imaginary one above. A few of those WILL cause a ban on caching in the cities.

 

The person who started this thread made a good point.

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If I did not post something and run up my post count.....The terrorists have won for sure... B)

 

Anyway...I have been doing virts in DC the past 2 days....AT NIGHT...Not been bothered (or mugged) yet. Police are around all the time. I have a flashlight and look around. In the day time I am sure nobody would even notice.

 

My horse and buggy downtown has created the biggest stur. I wonder if they think I am going to load my horse with C4 and drive it into a building. B) HA!

 

Seriously, I am wondering about the METRO....little scared to take it right now. :P

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I think film canisters, pill bottles and even clear tupperware containers aren't a threat to anyone. Stick an ammo box in a scrub at the mall and you're gonna give the bomb squad some practice.

Absolutely right, no threat at all. But, in my example above, if the muggle calls the cops without checking what he saw the cacher hide, does it matter what the container is to begin with?

 

How many of those who insist on 'going about life with no changes to win agains terrorists' will refuse to go through the new and improved metal detectors at the airport? - Is passing through one of those also a surrender to terror?

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wasn't it a high ranking B) official in our government that shortly after 911 said we should not forget 911 but to also live our day to day lives as we normally would?

 

So I cache and if it is in a City I will cache in the City. They can't arrest you for it.

This thread is not about 'being arrested for it' - the original post was about a concern that caching could be banned in cities under some circumstances.

 

I still think it was a good and timely post.

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I think this is throwing out a whole nursery of babies with the bathwater. Are you suggesting that no-one should cache at all around cities? Where does that leave us residents of major metropolitan areas? I would have to travel 50 or so miles to just get outside of a "busy town or city". How about the several hundred other cachers that live around here? They should also only travel to rural areas? Or we should all just give up our legal, peaceable activity of caching because we happen to live in cities? I think on the balance that the "one in a blue moon" muggle inspired bomb scare is small potatoes next to the win that the terrorists get by an impact to thousands of us who live in or nearby major cities. Bons, you're 100% right on this.

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I think this is throwing out a whole nursery of babies with the bathwater. Are you suggesting that no-one should cache at all around cities?

Who is your question directed at? Can't be me coz I said. "Till that day comes - continue caching, just be aware of the consequences....."

 

And I STILL think that the original post made a good point - like it or not, there could come a time when you COULD be arrested for it. If we don't take due care.

Makes no difference how right or wrong you are - a few bomb scares, however knee jerk in origin, could easily generate a few new city ordinances. - That means, if the days comes, virts or nothing.

 

I am saying, take extra care when caching to avoid suspicion. This is not giving in to terrorism, it is acting to protect the continuance of our hobby.

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I thought about this topic recently upon reading a few posts from cachers who have been stopped by the police for "acting strangely".

 

Terrorists want you to be scared, to run around thinking everyone else is out to get you, to bomb you. Their hope is that with enough fear, you'll prevail upon your political leaders to capitulate to whatever agenda the terrorists have. They hope that they can use fear to ruin your life and even destroy your political system.

 

The United States runs the very real risk of devolving into a Police State, all in the name of fighting terror. Citizens are expected to go to work, to go to the store, to go to the movies. Don't go doing anything odd or different, don't go out acting "strangely", or people will think you're a "terrorist". People who are out acting "strangely" are "scarey" and although not guilty of any real crime, being "scarey" is bad and should be punished. If someone accuses you of being "scarey", that's all it takes, even if it tramples on *your* rights.

 

What crapola.

 

The greatest danger to our civil rights isn't that we would be deprived of them by force at the hands of some foreign enemy. The greatest danger is that we would be convinced to give them up by people who parrot our values but don't truely believe in them, people who would try to foster and use our fear to keep themselves in power. These are the people Americans should be keeping their eyes open for. Our forefathers fought and died for *rights*, not "security" or "freedom from scarieness". They would be apalled at how cavalierly we treat those rights today.

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well thought that might stir up a hornets nest!

 

to clarify i never intended to suggest we stopped entirely but rather that we considered the implications.

yes to change is to let them win but not to change might make their job easier.

how about thinking about small changes. ammo boxes not to be used as not easy to x-ray ammo box to discover safe. use tupperware instead. be aware of where you are placing things.

 

each time the police or bomb squad are checking out a geocache they aren't checking out a real threat. the disruption caused by the checking of the geocache is itself a victory for the terrorists.

 

i don't think it needs to be banned but i was pointing out that legislation is made by people who don't think just react. we have a tottally useless handgun ban in the uk because a couple of idiots shot people. has it stopped the problem? ofcourse not just a kneejerk reaction that only affects the innocent. my fear is that some idiot politition might do something similar to us.

 

i'm an ex policeman(hence the avatar) i have dealt with hoax bomb threats etc. i agree don't let them win. but lets not risk anyone or our hobbies by being bloody minded and refusing to adapt.

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each time the police or bomb squad are checking out a geocache they aren't checking out a real threat. the disruption caused by the checking of the geocache is itself a victory for the terrorists.

No. It's not. The terrorists don't care. It's simply a loss for everyone involved because some idiot played chicken little and called the police instead of just asking their fellow citizen what the heck was going on.

 

Your neighbor is not your enemy. It is NOT acceptable to treat them like they are.

 

If you're dealing with an uneducated public, then educate them. Don't make rules that make ignorance and fear easier to live with and therefore acceptable.

 

If you don't want a kneejerk reaction that only affects the innocent, then don't come up with kneejerk solutions to problems caused by people being jerks. Just look at what you appear to be saying. Ban on guns = bad so maybe we should ban ammo boxes as well. Didn't you learn the first time that it wasn't the item that was the problem but the people? Stop trying to fix the item and fix the people. They're the problem, not the ammo can.

Edited by bons
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I have to disagree with Bons. I too did 4 yrs (plus another 4 inactive). My brother did 6. My father did 21. I think that is irrevelant though. Every able bodied male of a certain age could be called to defend the country. I've worked LAw Enforcement, Security and Corrections for many more years than I was in the military. I too protected at those times. I have developed a more keen sense of security and safety than the average person. Should we be worried about people seeing us look suspicious? Yes. We are suspicious and sneaky when we are out in the woods and don't think anyone is looking, but we are just to make sure. I have to agree that you have to use good judgement when placing a cache or searching for one in a metropolis area. Not everyone is openminded about this type of thing. If you ever worked a police desk or probably even a 911 phone line, you would know how many calls are actually made for suspicious things. Mostly by the paranoid and/or the elderly. They do not understand and don't want to understand. They see someone with a device and that is looking suspicious. They see them place or remove and then replace something, all the better. They call the police because they are doing what they are told to do. Similar thing was happening in Atlanta in 1996 after the bombs there during hte Olympics. People are still reporting bookbags being left behind all the time.

 

On freedoms. You have to look at and see what freedom you actually have or think you have. Yes some may be restricted from time to time and in certain places. It's for reasons. Get used to it. It's still 100% better than living in some other countries or under their dictator. Your freedom is restricted every day and more of it is getting restricted every dy. Not just by the federal govt, but by your state and local govt's as well. If you did your 4 years then you will realize that some things are necessary to do or to refrain from in order to continue protecting this country we live in.

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think film canisters, pill bottles and even clear tupperware containers aren't a threat to anyone. Stick an ammo box in a scrub at the mall and you're gonna give the bomb squad some practice.

 

This is a minconception. Of the caches that have resulted in the bomb squad being called in, several were Tupperware, or similar plastic containers. And with bio-terror being a real possiblity, responsible responders won't dismiss a film canister as harmless.

 

Anyway, I'm with the group who plans on going about our lives and not letting the terrorists win by changing the way we do things. And if this means hunting for a geocache in a city, I'll do it.

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I will go on caching in my city. I will bring my cell phone and my GPSr and when I see something strange, I will call 911. Whether they do anything about it is something else. I will not be afraid to do my hobby, after all, if we are afraid of terrorists in cities, then I could be killed jogging, or riding a bus if the bomb is in the wrong place for me.

 

It isn't about letting the terrorists win or turning into a police state, its about the lessons I have learned from a lifetime in tormado country. If you get hit, you're dead. If you don't, then you're not. You can't prevent them from coming, you can protect yourself from needless risk, but not ALL risk. (of the two people killed in our last mega twister, one was killed because he climbed onto the roof of his gas station and caught a 2x4 with his chest, but the other drowned in her basement when rubble piled on top of her and the water line broke, filling her basement.)

 

I could get blown up, but I could also see something that I wouldn't have otherwise been able to see. I could have skipped a frequently robbed geocache in Platts Meth (plattsmouth, NE), but then I would have missed the chance to see the confluence of the platte and missouri rivers. The photo of which is a perfect way to summarize my lecture on cancer in children. Yeah, I wouldn't have had to walk around a park in a bad part of town looking for a cache that had been stolen to pay for crystal meth, but a bunch of medical students now see cancer in children as a lifetime problem, rather than as a collection of rare diseases they will never deal with.

 

Reviewing the odds and the outcomes, it works for me to keep on doing this.

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Wow what timing. I just hid three urban micros on the way into work this morning. I have no intention of stopping at three. I have no plans to modify my life due to the War on Terrorism, other than to get to the airport a little bit earlier for a flight.

I might be a little more relaxed looking for urban micros so I do not alarm anyone watching me. in fact if questioned I will now tell people I'm doing a quadrant safety check. B)

PS if we stopped urban caching then Nashville would fall of the face of the GC.com map. :P

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Who said anything about stopping? lol It's just a fact of today's world. Things are tighter and people are more alert as well as paranoid. But it has nothing to do with freedom, rights or not being scared. At anytime, any of those can change. Do what you are able to do today and hope that you can tomorrow. Be smart about it and aware of your surroundings, what you are doing and what it may appear you are doing.

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iam not at all concerned with anybody else's heightened state of alert. i'm a big fan of civil liberties, and if you'll excuse me, i have important things to do. i'm playing games here.

 

it is vitally important for us to play games and to sing songs and to tell jokes. it is vitally important that we focus on the things that bind us together rather than rend us apart.

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Who said anything about stopping? lol It's just a fact of today's world. Things are tighter and people are more alert as well as paranoid. But it has nothing to do with freedom, rights or not being scared. At anytime, any of those can change. Do what you are able to do today and hope that you can tomorrow. Be smart about it and aware of your surroundings, what you are doing and what it may appear you are doing.

Exactly Woodie!

 

Just bear in mind the fact of the police and everyone else being very aware of what is going on around them/us and also what happened in some of the wild, country areas. Then re-read the first post in this thread - it's not about stopping caching. It's about the real danger of having caching banned in the cities. Not everyone thinks the same way as we do.

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There are a few strange responses to this thread.  The original post was reference busy towns and cities, not parks.  Also, and this is a purely personal view point, NOT a pop at anyone in particular, there seems to be a degree of naivety in the attitude to terrorists and their activities.  An explosion in my local park that killed a few trees would certainly, and rightly, NOT go uncommented!

 

To enlarge:

It is NOT enough to go about ones normal activities and to say that the terrorists have not won.  It is not even enough that they have not won.  They have to be beaten!  'Not winning' simply means that the war is going on - 'winning' means that the war is over!  I know that there are those that will see this as controversial but to win against terrorists there must be, somewhere along the line, dead terrorists.  Preferably before they get into our aircraft.

 

Here is a POSSIBLE scenario.

Mr. C. Asher goes out for a day of caching in the city.  As luck would have it, he is observed returning a cache to its hiding place by Mr. M. Uggle.  Mr. M. decides that he has just observed something suspicious and goes off to call the police.  The dispatcher sends a patrol vehicle to the scene and the officers talk to Mr. M.  Mr. C. is long gone!  When the officers have a look in the area where our friendly, neighborhood cacher was doing his 'suspicious actions' they see a container of some description and decide it is not a good idea to touch it.  Calling back to base they arrange for a visit from the bomb squad and, in the interim, proceed to cordon off the immediate area in case this item should explode or start puffing out some nasty substance.  Sometime later the bomb squad arrive and start their investigation.  They discover, reasonably quickly, that the container is in no way a threat.  However, it can not be left there.  All of this has taken in the area of one to two hours possibly.  During that time there has been a substantial disruption to normal life in that part of town.  Individuals and business have had their lives disrupted to a greater or lesser degree.  The rumors have started flying with the normal degree of exaggeration - bombs, anthrax, poison gas.

Mr. C. is now on the other side of town chasing another cache and is having a great day, his numbers are going up in a very satisfying way.

Later, in the evening Mr. C. arrives home tired from his exertions and heads straight off to bed, not even checking the local news channel.  He drifts quickly off to sleep promising that tomorrow he will log on and post the logs for the days activities and congratulating himself that he carried on another normal day thus foiling the activities of the terrorists of the world once again.

Meanwhile, across town, Mr. M. lies in bed, and as he drifts off to sleep he congratulates himself that he did his duty as a good and observant citizen.  OK, it was NOT a bomb, but it might have been, he tells him self.  He thinks it is a shame that the city was so disrupted by the incident but, better that than an explosion!

The terrorists did not win against Mr. C. Asher - he carried on his normal activities on a day set aside as a caching day.  In the broad view, is this a victory against terrorism?

All I am asking is that people look beyond the short sighted view and aim at winning the war against terror.  If this means taking more care than otherwise to avoid suspicion then take that care.  Doing so is NOT a sign of weakness.  It is NOT surrendering to the terror merchants.  The world will never be as it once was unless, and until, these people are all dead.  They are fanatics and need to be stopped in a way that is beyond question.  'Till that day comes - continue caching, just be aware of the consequences of a few incidents like the imaginary one above.  A few of those WILL cause a ban on caching in the cities.

 

The person who started this thread made a good point.

I know it is considered bad form to quote ones own posts but I really do have a concern for this subject:

 

Friday, March 19, 2004

Bomb scare at Disneyland a false alarm

Officials take precautions after a suspicious object is discovered near the Autopia ride.

 

By CINDY MURPHY and JEFF COLLINS

The Orange County Register

 

ANAHEIM - The Tomorrowland area of Disneyland opened 30 minutes late this morning after a park landscaper found a suspicious package at the bathrooms near the Autopia ride.

 

The Orange County sheriff's bomb squad declared the incident a false alarm after deploying a robot equipped with an X-ray that determined the object was not an explosive.

 

"We don't know whether it was an elaborate hoax or just something left behind," said John Nicoletti, Anaheim city spokesman, who was at the scene.

 

The incident did not delay Disneyland's scheduled 9 a.m. opening, but patrons were unable to visit such Tomorrowland attractions as Club Buzz, Innoventions and Starcade until 9:30 a.m.

 

Officials said that the landscaper found the object around 7 a.m. at the bottom of a staircase. He notified security personnel, who in turn called police. Police summoned the bomb squad.

 

Check this thread out too...

Edited by bug&snake
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Friday, March 19, 2004

Bomb scare at Disneyland a false alarm

Officials take precautions after a suspicious object is discovered near the Autopia ride.

Translation: Geocache found where owner apparently did not have an acceptable level of permission.

 

There was nothing wrong with the placement of the cache. What was wrong was that the cache was placed on private and commercial property without the permission or knowledge of those responsible for the area.

 

The existing rules of asking permission where required and not placing commerical caches would have removed this problem. Unfortunately, grandfathering can cause issues and the cache owner completely dropped the ball.

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Let's not get carried away because we have a special interest and some "behind the scenes" knowledge of this incident. Remember, that as one of the posters in the other thread mentioned, from Disney's perspective, this is just one of many many incidents they will deal with (phone-ins, suspicious items and people, etc), not to mention the more conventional crimes that are always going on at the park, pickpockets, shoplifters... We feel badly, since this incident involves "one of our own", but it is still just one incident, and in the "suspicious object found, bomb squad summoned" category, is by no means unique.

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Friday, March 19, 2004

Bomb scare at Disneyland a false alarm

Officials take precautions after a suspicious object is discovered near the Autopia ride.

Translation: Geocache found where owner apparently did not have an acceptable level of permission.

 

There was nothing wrong with the placement of the cache. What was wrong was that the cache was placed on private and commercial property without the permission or knowledge of those responsible for the area.

 

The existing rules of asking permission where required and not placing commerical caches would have removed this problem. Unfortunately, grandfathering can cause issues and the cache owner completely dropped the ball.

Oh, that's OK then. It's all explained now. The local police and the bomb squad will understand. It was a GRANDFATHERED cache! Good, so that won't influence the thinking at all, they can all have a laugh about it as they sit down with their coffee this morning.

 

Again, I would refer everyone to the original post in this thread. It expresses a concern for the future of urban caches. I, for one, share that concern. I DO NOT suggest that such caching be banned but I feel that, unless care is taken, a few more incidents like the above could well cause a ban to take effect.

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Friday, March 19, 2004

Bomb scare at Disneyland a false alarm

Officials take precautions after a suspicious object is discovered near the Autopia ride.

Translation: Geocache found where owner apparently did not have an acceptable level of permission.

 

There was nothing wrong with the placement of the cache. What was wrong was that the cache was placed on private and commercial property without the permission or knowledge of those responsible for the area.

 

The existing rules of asking permission where required and not placing commerical caches would have removed this problem. Unfortunately, grandfathering can cause issues and the cache owner completely dropped the ball.

So right again Bons. This is a classic case of permission should have been obtained.

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So right again Bons. This is a classic case of permission should have been obtained.

Absolutely!

 

I hope all of the elected city officials (and theme park officials) who hear about the incident will bear that in mind too. Anyhow, it was only a few hours of police time, bomb squad time, lost income!!! <sigh>

 

This thread did not start out as a defense of freedom in the light of terrorism. It was about one cachers concern for the future of urban caching. The fact of the whether a cache was grandfathered or not will not be a factor in any discussion they may have on the subject. This is an echo of the process that many groups are going through with regard to caching in some areas of wild land. There is a chance to head it off before it starts. Lets be sensible and conscientious in our approach. If cachers adopt a bull headed attitude to this then it is natural that the officials will react by pushing back. That is the point at which bans will be put into effect.

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When you're done ranting, you might want to add something constructive to the discussion.

 

At the moment there are guidelines which, if followed, will prevent this incident from happening. When a change in the guidelines happens the site depends on the hiders and the local community to archive caches as necessary.

 

The alternative is to re-approve every cache during every guideline change, which would be a nightmare for everyone involved. I can understand why this isn't done today and I don't expect it to happen in the future.

 

What happened in Disneyland was not the fault of geocaching com, it's procedures, or it's guidelines. It was the fault of one individual cacher who placed a hide without permission in an area where permission should have been obtained.

 

As for being "bullheaded", I am honestly stating my opinion. There are guidelines in place to reduce problems. In this case the guidelines were not followed. Adding more guidelines is not going to solve THAT problem. The existance of a local caching group might make a difference in your community (it does in ours) and if you want to form one I suggest you do.

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When you're done ranting, you might want to add something constructive to the discussion.

First, one mans rave is another mans rant…..

As for adding something constructive, I feel that I have made a pretty good case for taking care to keep one aspect of caching available for those who enjoy it. The discussion (thread) started out as a just such a concern but was quickly subverted to being about how terrorism can be beaten by ignoring it. PLEASE NOTE THAT AT NO TIME HAVE I SUGGESTED THAT URBAN CACHING BE STOPPED. In fact, I have said the opposite.

At the moment there are guidelines which, if followed, will prevent this incident from happening. When a change in the guidelines happens the site depends on the hiders and the local community to archive caches as necessary.

Yes, indeed there are, at least in the case of Disney World and such places. Had the cache been approved then the park officials would have been able to stop the panic before it started. This however only applies to this case. Had the incident happened in a city, who would have known about the cache? I posted the news report as an example of how these things can progress. I think it is pretty obvious that each case will be different but the basic theme would run throughout such an incident. Urban caches are placed without permission, so, there is no central registry where the ‘is it a cache or is it possibly something else’ can be asked.

The alternative is to re-approve every cache during every guideline change, which would be a nightmare for everyone involved. I can understand why this isn't done today and I don't expect it to happen in the future.

Patently ridiculous, couldn’t agree more.

What happened in Disneyland was not the fault of geocaching com, it's procedures, or it's guidelines. It was the fault of one individual cacher who placed a hide without permission in an area where permission should have been obtained.

Absolutely right, couldn’t agree more.

As for being "bullheaded", I am honestly stating my opinion.

Yes, you are and I respect that. At no time have I ever made a personal attack on you or anyone else in this thread. My use of the term ‘bull headed’ was generic. And, as for ‘ranting’ I am honestly stating mine.

There are guidelines in place to reduce problems. In this case the guidelines were not followed. Adding more guidelines is not going to solve THAT problem.

You said that already and I agreed with you and added my comments. See above.

The existence of a local caching group might make a difference in your community (it does in ours) and if you want to form one I suggest you do.

There already is an excellent one. I don't see how it has relevance in this thread.

 

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A reference

Edited by bug&snake
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again i will state that my intention was not to suggest we ban urban caches. rather to raise awareness of the potential problem, being that the people who could ban it are not geocachers and do not understand the sport. they could decide it's easier to just ban it than bother to liase with any local groups as regards whether a package is a geocache.

 

by raising the subject i hoped that people would pay more attention to following our rules because that should minimise the risk of any ban and reduce the number of false alarms we could cause.

 

just remember that when the bomb squad are dealing with a badly placed cache the terrorists could be planting a well placed bomb. let's make sure we don't suffer because some idiot can't follow the rules.

 

local groups should self police and any individual causing problems should be spoken to in no uncertain terms.

 

i hope people consider what i have said to be constructive and not a rant.

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