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How Can We Influence The Faa?


halhal
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If having 100 GPSr's being used on a plane would have no effect on the electronics of the pilot's instruments, then:

 

How can we, as those who enjoy using our GPSr's on a plane, appropriately "encourage" (lobby) the FAA to allow (mandate?) GPSr's to be allowed to be used on all airline flights?

 

I won't quibble about the 10 minute rule, but it would be nice to be able to use them during take off and landings if that was safe.

 

Is there a name or committee at the FAA that we could write via postal mail or email to to start getting the idea started?

Could this be done through elected officials -- would writing our congressman help?

 

Does anyone really care enough to even bother trying to do this type of thing?

 

Hal Huntley

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I'm requesting a Markwell - are you not allowed to use a GPSr on a commercial flight?

Take this for what it's worth. I can not vouch for it's accuracy. I found it with a quick search on google. - JamesJM

 

The Airlines which OFFICIALLY APPROVE the use of GPS receivers during CRUISE

This actually means pilot discretion in all cases.

 

Air Canada

Air New Zealand

Air Malaysia

Alitalia (Italy)

 

British Airways

Cathay Pacific

CAAC (China Airlines, Mainland China)

Continental Airlines (as of November 2000)

CrossAir

Delta Airlines

EasyJet (Europe)

Egypt Air

FinnAir (as of May 2003)

 

Icelandair

Jet Airways (India)

KLM (Flight operations book under rule 120.8.5)

LOT Polish Airlines

Maersk Air (Denmark)

MidWest Express

NorthWest Airlines (Flight operations book under rule 120.8.5)

Qantas

Reno Airlines

Ryanair (Irish)

Singapore Air Lines

SAS (flip-flopped again as of 2/2/04)

 

SN Brussels Airlines (as of 11/25/03 per <KTeirbroodt@brusselsairlines.com>

 

South African Airways

Southwest Airlines

Sun Country (Regional USA)

Swiss (Was Swissair and CrossAir)

Tunis Air

United Air Lines (may ask if your GPS is FCC Class B approved. All handhelds are. Show them in the manual.)

US Airways (was US Air)

Vanguard Airlines

Virgin Airlines

Airlines which OFFICIALLY DO NOT APPROVE the use of GPS receivers at ANY time during flight.

(*) Individual Pilots may allow GPS use. (It never hurts to ask the pilot on any flight. Oftentimes, cabin attendants say NO when they don't know.)

Alaska Airlines (as of 04/01, Yep, they changed AGAIN)

Air Tran

America West Airlines

American Airlines (as of 21 July 2000)

Britannia Airlines (as of May 2003)

 

El Al Airlines (Israel)

Hawaiian Airlines(*)

Horizon Airlines(*)

Iberia Airlines(*)

JetBlue Airways (USA, as of January 2004)(*)

 

Lufthansa Airlines

Mexicana airlines

Midway Express

Monarch Airlines

Spirit Airlines

TWA

Varig Airlines

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Title 14, Code of Federal Regulations, commonly known as the Federal Aviation Regulations, or FARs, specifically prohibit all use of all personal electronic devices on all aircraft, all flights, unless the airline has specifically tested that device on that model aircraft. This will not be changed. I can promise you that. Not every federal regulation makes complete sense, but changing them is practically impossible.

 

If you want any changes, pressure the airlines. It's easier not to do any testing than to do it, and those that don't allow use of devices only do it because it's easier not to than to go through the FAA's hoops. You will notice that pretty much every airline allows the use of laptops, because they would lose large numbers of passengers if they didn't. Make sure the airline knows you will not buy their tickets because they don't allow use of your GPS. If the airline gets enough pressure, it might change the policy. There is really no good reason for not allowing GPSrs on aircraft - mine has one installed in the panel, and before we got the installed models I used a handheld regularly in the cockpit, with no problems at all. GPSrs do not emit enough electromagnetic radiation to cause any problem with the aircraft instruments, and the level is orders of magnitude lower than any laptop. It's just laziness on the part of the airlines, and the only thing that will overcome their inertia is lower profits, or at least the threat of it.

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This is an interesting topic.

 

While I'm certainly not against using a GPSr on a plane (I'm a guy, it's a gadget. need I say more???) I don't understand the intensity with which this is argued.

 

Why?

 

I mean, I think it would be rather cool to know where the plane was at any given moment, and pehaps if you could see some particularly interesting surface feature (waaaaay down there) you could set a waypoint and come back after it in the family sedan. But otherwise, why would you feel the NEED to have one up and running? I usually just bring a book. B)

 

Again, this isn't an attack. I love my GPSr, and I need to know if I've missed the point and should feel strongly about it too! ;)

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I don't think GPS use in planes is an FAA issue, or the rules would be the same for all airlines. Because some airlines ban them and some allow their use, it is apparently up to the individual airlines to formulate GPS policy.

 

I doubt that that writing to the FAA asking that they force all airlines to allow their use would do much. Even if someone at the FAA agreees, I'm sure it would't be a high priority item on their agenda. If this issue is so important to you that you plan on writing, a letter to the airlines that ban GPS use would probably be more effective.

 

Here is a list of airlines that BAN GPS use. As you see there are far fewer on this list that the list of airlines that allow GPS use that JamesJM provided earlier.

 

* Alaska Airlines (as of 04/01, Yep, they changed AGAIN)

* Air Tran

* America West Airlines

* American Airlines (as of 21 July 2000)

* Britannia Airlines (as of May 2003)

* El Al Airlines (Israel)

* Hawaiian Airlines(*)

* Horizon Airlines(*)

* Iberia Airlines(*)

* JetBlue Airways (USA, as of January 2004)(*)

* Lufthansa Airlines

* Mexicana airlines

* Midway Express

* Monarch Airlines

* Spirit Airlines

* Varig Airlines

 

What the heck is Varig Airlines anyway?

Edited by briansnat
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My goal is now to place a travelling cache on a plane while on vacaction and put a knife in the cache. I figure if I win the lottery, buy my own jet plane, and seriously bribe Keystone Approver I might actually get away with it. I might even make it a travel bug hotel while I'm at it.

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Take this for what it's worth. I can not vouch for it's accuracy. I found it with a quick search on google. - JamesJM

 

The Airlines which OFFICIALLY APPROVE the use of GPS receivers during CRUISE

This actually means pilot discretion in all cases.

 

Sun Country (Regional USA)

I just flew on Sun Country Airlines from MLPS to DEN roundtrip and they specifically stated over the intercom that using GPSr's are PROHIBITED on the plane. No if's and's or but's. I asked.

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Actually, I'm surprised GPSs's are allowed by any airline.

 

First you would have all those people saying that GPSr's make it easy for terrorists to co-ordinate their attack by moving when the place reaches a specific location. These are the same people who have done their best to get fingernail clippers defined as a "weapon". Common sense has no effect on these people.

 

Then you would have all those people who look at their GPSr and play back seat driver. Why are we still circling? Why did we go this way? And lord knows they would insist on giving the poor guy in the seat next to them an earful. Please. don't sit me near these mutants.

 

And then there's the guy who wants to place his external antenna on the window because he's stuck in an aisle seat and he wants to run this wire behind you and the next thing you know it's on the window blocking your view, there's a wire dangling in your hair, and the old lady behind you is screaming BOMB!!!

 

Or lord help the airline where the passenger gets a bad GPSr reading and starts claiming that the airline has been hijacked or that the altitude is dropping rapidly or otherwise does their best to drive the rest of the cabin into a panic.

 

Yes. There are a lot of dumb laws in this country. I finally figured out that it was because we have a lot of dumb people in this country. My goal is to find a country where no one owns a TV and idiots gets deported for the good of the nation.

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There is really no good reason for not allowing GPSrs on aircraft - mine has one installed in the panel, and before we got the installed models I used a handheld regularly in the cockpit, with no problems at all. GPSrs do not emit enough electromagnetic radiation to cause any problem with the aircraft instruments, and the level is orders of magnitude lower than any laptop. It's just laziness on the part of the airlines, and the only thing that will overcome their inertia is lower profits, or at least the threat of it.

Night

I still set my handheld ON the panel, heck on the instruments themselfs with no effect.

Its more a question of testing then anything else. The FAA wants PROOF these things will not mess with on board systems. In other words $$$ to prove nothing will go wrong.

 

Ob

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You better believe El Al Airlines bans GPS units. The Israelis have to be careful in these dangerous times. I don't know about you but 30,000 feet over the Middle East in an El Al airliner with a dude pulling some electronic device out of his pocket would freak me out. Especially if he kept staring at it. ;)

 

edit: emoticon and spelling error

Edited by Ox
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Before I make the next statement, let me assure you that I know that a Boeing 747 has a lot more and a lot more sophisticated instruments than a Cessna 182, and especially a Piper Cub (don't have the 182 anymore).

 

I have used and still use GPS while flying. It doesn't mess up any of my avionics, and the mount is right there on top of all the instruments, and within a few feet of all the antennas.

 

Bottom line is, the plane belongs to the airline. They can tell you not to use a GPS on their planes if they want to. If you don't like it, use another airline. If all airlines end up banning them, use your car.

 

If I had someone flying with me, and they had some gadget that I thought might jack up the instruments, I'd make them turn it off too. It's not worth getting lost because it messed up the NAV instruments, or running into a mountain, etc...

 

my 2¢

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My goal is now to place a travelling cache on a plane while on vacaction and put a knife in the cache. I figure if I win the lottery, buy my own jet plane, and seriously bribe Keystone Approver I might actually get away with it. I might even make it a travel bug hotel while I'm at it.

Very good Bons. :P;)B)B):P

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Its more a question of testing then anything else. The FAA wants PROOF these things will not mess with on board systems. In other words $$$ to prove nothing will go wrong.

Absolutely. The only question for the airline is which will cost them more - doing the testing (which is easy, really, any pilot can do it, but changing policy for an entire airline has to overcome lots of inertia) or losing ticket sales to passengers who refuse to fly if they can't use the GPS, or laptop, or mp3 player, or whatever. Again, note that all airlines allow the use of laptops, which emit much more stray radiation than any GPS, because passengers won't put up with not being able to use laptops. And that's the only reason, totally economic.

 

I got one of our sheet metal guys to build me a mount that clips to the glareshield. I used it all the time back in the old days before we got IFR-certified GPS units installed. Nowadays I seldom pull it out of the bag, but it's always there, just in case. 100 NM offshore, at 3AM, if the installed GPS quits, I want something that will show me the way home. There ain't no VORs out there, and no ATC radar either.

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Sure it's fun to play with a GPSr in a plane (but like others have already indicated) it's just hard to get excited enough to care. But if someone lobbied the FAA or individual airlines for in-flight GPSr use, I wouldn't be mad either.

 

Frankly, I'm just happy the receivers are legal on the ground. B);)

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My thoughts on this.

If you had the GPS and the Laptop you could then relay to someone else on the ground your position and from there many thing could happen.

 

Do you want any body to have the(ability) capabilities to track you when you are on a plane???

 

Not me...

But I don't get in Commercial Aircraft either.

It's pretty easy to figure out where a given airplane is (generally, certainly you couldn't correct your course real time, with a ground vehicle, and keep up with an airliner), using their published rout and departure time. You won't hit an airplane at 28K'-32K' with a stinger, or any other small portable missile system. If you want to hit one on approach or just after take off, you wouldn't need somebody in the airplane to do that.

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i'd like to add my voice to the loud throng of Those Who Just Don't Care.

 

of all the things i could be pressuring government agencies over, this one seems kind of like a non-isue to me.

 

i do not fly in planes anymore if i can help it. i have not flown since 1987. it has less to do with fear of terrorists or crashes and more to do with my phobia of other people's airsickness.

 

anyway, the last time i was in a plane i do not remember even remotely thinking i wanted to know the altitude, airspeed, or location of the plane. i was much more concerned with the issue of how long i could continue to read before i felt green.

 

granted, for the first week or so that i had my GPSr, i was amused to see how fast i was going or what my elevation was, but now i don't bother to turn it on unless i expect to be hunting a cache.

 

and i think bons is right. not only would i not want to be seated next to those guys on planes, but i do not want to be near them on the ground, either.

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My thoughts on this.

If you had the GPS and the Laptop you could then relay to someone else on the ground your position and from there many thing could happen.

 

Do you want any body to have the(ability) capabilities to track you when you are on a plane???

 

Not me...

But  I don't get in Commercial Aircraft either.

It's pretty easy to figure out where a given airplane is (generally, certainly you couldn't correct your course real time, with a ground vehicle, and keep up with an airliner), using their published rout and departure time. You won't hit an airplane at 28K'-32K' with a stinger, or any other small portable missile system. If you want to hit one on approach or just after take off, you wouldn't need somebody in the airplane to do that.

You just took the words right out of my mouth.

 

Flight patterns aren't top secret, classified information. Anyone that really wants to know when flight 394 will be over Mt. Somethingorother is going to find out, and as martmann said, takeoff and landing would be the only times that most terrorists would be interested.

 

Sure, they may say that security or terrorism is the reason they're not allowed, but the truth was already mentioned - it's economic.

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All U.S. registered airlines have to operate Part 121 of CFR 14. 121.306 governs the use of portable electronic devices (PED). See below

 

121.306 Portable electronic devices.

 

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (B) of this section, no person may operate, nor may any operator or pilot in command of an aircraft allow the operation of, any portable electronic device on any U.S.-registered civil aircraft operating under this part.

(B) Paragraph (a) of this section does not apply to—

(1) Portable voice recorders;

(2) Hearing aids;

(3) Heart pacemakers;

(4) Electric shavers; or

(5) Any other portable electronic device that the part 119 certificate holder has determined will not cause interference with the navigation or communication system of the aircraft on which it is to be used.

© The determination required by paragraph (B)(5) of this section shall be made by that part 119 certificate holder operating the particular device to be used.

 

The 119 certificate holder is the airline. So it is on the airline to determine which PED can be used. The airline has to prove to their local FAA principle airworthiness inspector (PAI) that the PED meets 121.306. That is where the problem lies as to why some airlines allow the uses of your GPSR and some don't. A new PAI shows up and they question the whole PED program and you get to start over.

Edited by ohno
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Do you want any body to have the(ability) capabilities to track you when you are on a plane???

There are several websites that allow tracking practically any scheduled airline flight. I'm not sure how connecting the GPS to a laptop gives anyone else the position, but they're all being tracked in any case.
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