How Do I Log It?

[ckhd]

Wanting an actual challenge (and a sense of actually doing something), I made a list of several benchmarks in my area and set out to find them, only I didn't pick just any benchmarks. I picked only ones reported as "mark not found".

 

I found this one:

http://www.geocaching.com/mark/details.aspx?PID=ER0208

 

And I found positive proof that these two have been destroyed:

http://www.geocaching.com/mark/details.aspx?PID=ER0209

http://www.geocaching.com/mark/details.aspx?PID=ER0210

 

And I found very strong evidence that this one has been destroyed (I am 100% certain of it):

http://www.geocaching.com/mark/details.aspx?PID=ER0211

 

First question is: On the ones that I 'found' but were destroyed, do I flag them as 'found' and also as 'destroyed', or just 'destroyed'?

 

Second question: Who do I tell? Do I tell them about the one I found intact as well as the three I found destroyed? The last time they knew where it was located was in 1934, and the last time they looked was 1969. What's the procedures on that?

[+Black Dog Trackers]

ckhd -

 

Impressive challenge - looking for only not-founds!

 

On the ones you 'know' are destroyed, mark as 'Destroyed' on the geocaching site. You don't get an increased 'count' for that, unfortunately, which is probably why lots of benchmark hunters don't restrict themselves to 'not-founds'.

 

You need to be very sure if you think a mark is destroyed. If you have any doubt at all, use Didn't Find It. The concrete headwall could be buried, but still there with the benchmark on it. These marks are 'location scaled' and the position isn't accurate. The surest way is to find the mark out of position, etc. The NGS is extremely conservative when it comes to declaring a mark Destroyed.

 

It would be good to report your find on the NGS site. Then surveyors could consider using this mark instead of thinking it lost and having to use another farther away instead. You can use GEOCAC as the 'approved agency code' when making your report.

Edited March 9, 2004 by Black Dog Trackers

[ckhd]

Of the first two that are destroyed, the first concrete headwall hasn't completely deteriorated, and the full, round impression of the disk in the concrete is still there. The second one is much more deteriorated, and I found part of the impression (about 40%), in a piece that had fallen away, but was right next to the headwall.

 

The last destroyed one, is at a place where people go and shoot their guns, and vandalize anything in site, including 'concrete culverts'. The culvert was at the correct mileage from town, and the headwall was very deteriorated from 70 years of decay, and people shooting it. There were no other concrete culverts anywhere near this one. I am completely positive that the benchmark was there, and is now gone.

 

I suspect that a vandal saw the benchmark at the last location, swiped it, and then thought, "I wonder if the other culverts along this old highway have these things in them" and then went up the road popping them out.

[+Black Dog Trackers]

chkd -

 

In these cases of destroyed marks with the disk impression, you could send mark recovery reports to the NGS and include pictures of the culverts and disk locations. They NGS might then categorize the marks as Destroyed (only they can do that on their site).

 

If I ever drive in that area, I will try to remember to roll down all my car windows so the bullets go right through without breaking the glass as people shoot at the culverts.

[ckhd]

Umm, you have to know where you're going to get there in the first place. The state moved the highway, so if you're just cruising on HWY 60, you won't even be close!

 

 

edit for my fat fingers hitting the wrong keys!

Edited March 9, 2004 by ckhd

[+GeckoGeek]

Of the first two that are destroyed, the first concrete headwall hasn't completely deteriorated, and the full, round impression of the disk in the concrete is still there. The second one is much more deteriorated, and I found part of the impression (about 40%), in a piece that had fallen away, but was right next to the headwall.

Go ahead and send the photos and descriptions to NGS. However, by their own rules you have to actually find the disk itself before they will declare them destroyed. (Don't blame me, I didn't make the rules, I'm just telling you about them.) While you have a "high degree of suspicion" you have not positivity identified it as the site of THAT disk. I'm hoping the NGS will reconsider and allow a disk to be marked as destroyed if there's clear proof that the object the disk was mounted to has been destroyed.

 

The designation of destroyed on CG is a different story and a subject of debate. Use your good judgment there. Since CG is a hobbyist site, I'm more inclined to report as destroyed anything that is no longer findable.

[2oldfarts (the rockhounders)]

Just something to ponder. The disk you were looking for had already been declared missing by the NGS. Yet you did find one of them!

 

Are you absolutely positively definitely sure that a particular disk is destroyed? What if someone else finds your destroyed disk?

 

Curious.

 

John

[ckhd]

I am completely 100% certain I found where the three disks used to be. If there was a percentage of certainty above 100%, that's where I'd be.

 

Why didn't the NGS find the four before? Because they were sent up from Phoenix, didn't know the area, were totally unaware that US HWY 60 had been moved 2 miles south years earlier, and looked along the wrong highway. That's why they didn't find them, and why I did (I was looking along what was US HWY 60 in 1934, not what was US HWY 60 in 1969). The distances were right, the descriptions were right, the scaled coordinates were close. I did find the right spots.

 

 

edit for bad spelling

Edited March 9, 2004 by ckhd

[ckhd]

BTW - I included these four in my list of 'did not find', because I strongly suspected in advance that the NGS sent some out-of-towner up and he went up the wrong road. Four right in a row unfound? C'mon, nobody is that blind, but they are that lost.

[2oldfarts (the rockhounders)]

I am completely 100% certain I found where the three disks used to be.  If there was a percentage of certainty above 100%, that's where I'd be.

 

Why didn't the NGS find the four before?  Because they were sent up from Phoenix, didn't know the area, were totally unaware that US HWY 60 had been moved 2 miles south years earlier, and looked along the wrong highway.  That's why they didn't find them, and why I did (I was looking along what was US HWY 60 in 1934, not what was US HWY 60 in 1969).  The distances were right, the descriptions were right, the scaled coordinates were close.  I did find the right spots.

 

 

edit for bad spelling

 

It's OK we believe you, we're your friends!

 

John

[+JeremyA]

I am completely 100% certain I found where the three disks used to be. If there was a percentage of certainty above 100%, that's where I'd be.

You might be 100% certain that you found where the disks were. But, as far as I am aware, the NGS will only declare a mark as destroyed if you actually found the disk and the disk was out of its position (e.g. lying on the floor next to where it used to be). Otherwise they will just mark it as not found.

 

Some people feel that we should apply the NGS's standards to this website. Personally, if I was sure beyond a shadow of doubt that the mark was gone (e.g. the building that had the disk on it had been demolished) I would log it here as destroyed. If there was even the slightest bit of doubt I would just post a note here explaining what I found.

 

JeremyA

[Z15]

I am completely 100% certain I found where the three disks used to be. If there was a percentage of certainty above 100%, that's where I'd be.

 

 

I have found marks that others have claimed were gone, so I would not be so hasty to declare them missing. There could be any number of reasons for not finding besides them being destroyed;

 

I have found them buried, where the road changed and no one was aware of that, they were in the wrong 40 acres. Buried marks and road changes seem the most common. Many an person has been duped by road changes, even me. One of our survey crews was out searching for several marks along a highway and could not find anything. Knowing the road was rebuilt in the 70's they assumed they were all gone. When they came back in from the field, we dug old all the old plans and found out the road was reconstructed 3 times and the current location was about 1/4 miles from the old US-2 location. Back out with the plans and they found all the marks. The old road was almost impossible to see in some areas, but had an old power line that gave away its location. Other stretches it was now a county road and name OLD US-2. Duh, they were duped.

 

So, never say you are 100% sure unless you see the actual destroyed marks

[+GEO*Trailblazer 1]

I am 100% sure that I can not find some marks,

I am still looking on some and have just added a did not find note.

 

I am 100% sure I did not find it.

 

I have gone back and found those not founds by other agencies as well as one I have marked not found,but through persistance and resurvey of the areas have gone back and found them as far as 600+ feet off.

 

That is a Big Circle to be 100% sure of.

[ckhd]

Whatever.

 

I'm not saying I didn't find them. I DID find them, or at least what was left. The descriptions were EXACT. I went right to them. Took me literally 10 seconds of looking once I parked my car, and most of that was walking across the old highway. Found the perfectly round, perfectly sized hole in the concrete, exactly where the description said it was. NOBODY WILL EVER FIND ER0209 or ER0210 INTACT ANYWHERE ELSE. I will admit that there is a very, very slight chance I'm wrong on ER0211 (just because the headwall was too deteriorated to see the disk impression anymore), but I'd say the percentage would be in the range of .00003%.

 

Nobody is going to see those three disks again, except for whoever took them, and whoever that person shows.

[+Black Dog Trackers]

I think with location-scaled marks, there's always sufficient uncertainty to prevent one from accurately stating that a mark is destroyed. The ones in question here are location-scaled.

 

We should remember that there is approximately zero value in declaring a mark as destroyed, whereas there is a large negative value in mistakenly declaring a mark as destroyed, not only for surveying in general, but for one's own credibility in particular.

Edited March 10, 2004 by Black Dog Trackers

[+GeckoGeek]

I'm not saying I didn't find them. I DID find them, or at least what was left.

Don't take this the wrong way, we're in your corner, we're just explaining policy and the logic behind it.

 

You found the remains of A mark, but how can it be known for certainly that it was THAT mark? There are lots of other marks out there. That's why the strict NGS policy. If you want the definitive answer, email the information to Deb and NGS. That's the way you log a destroyed with them and she's the real judge and jury when it comes to NGS standards. We're just the CNN media experts kibitzing on the subject.

 

Now as far as GC standards, you're likely to find as many opinions as those who post here. On one hand, you could say log it as destroyed because you did find signs of where it was and it answered the description in all respects. On the other hand, there is something to be found, even it it's just the indention, so you might log it as a "find" and notate it's condition so others can have the fun of the hunt. Also some surveyor may find the hole enough to satisfy their surveying needs for the project at hand.

[+GeckoGeek]

We should remember that there is approximately zero value in declaring a mark as destroyed, whereas there is a large negative value in mistakenly declaring a mark as destroyed, not only for surveying in general, but for one's own credibility in particular.

While it sounds good on a case-by-case basis, when I find 10-15% of the county marks are clearly gone when you read the text, you have to wonder if there isn't some value in cleaning up the database. You can still retrieve the text of a destroyed mark on-line.

[+Black Dog Trackers]

GeckoGeek Posted on Mar 10 2004, 02:27 PM

  you have to wonder if there isn't some value in cleaning up the database

 

I have wondered that and have been incredulous about some of the PIDs in the database that clearly say the marker is gone (the reporter took it) and yet the PID isn't coded as destroyed. I can only surmise that there have been changes in policy or personal ways of doing things at the NGS over time.

 

These days, it doesn't cost much to keep a few bits of data in a computer, and as you say you can still get the data, so the data is still there in the computer. The only difference is that someone will waste their time looking for something that's gone. Nevertheless, all surveyors here say that they occasionally find marks that other professional surveyors have been unable to find for years, so it isn' t always a waste of time.

 

I think it still comes down to the same thing - there's no big imperative to log destroyed unless there's no possibility of error, and even then, the advantages of doing so are minimal.

 

Now, on the GC.com database, we can be just a tiny bit more liberal than the NGS and also deal with some of the obvious oversights. If there was a disk on a building and the building was torn down in 1950 and there's a parking lot there now, marking the PID as destroyed on GC.com is likely OK and will be one less mark for us to read and re-read on the list.