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Matches In Caches


Jen&Sean
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I remember reading a post, not on the forums but on a specific geocache page, and noting that a cacher had removed some matches from a cache stating that it was against the rules and, in general, a bad idea. Today, I came across a cache that had two books of matches in a waterproof container. I removed them and wrote in the log book that it was a rule violation. When I came home, I searched through the rules, FAQ, and these forums, and I couldn't find anything saying that matches were agains the rules! I felt bad for removing them (I didn't have any trade items) and for leaving what could be construed as a a chastising log entry, although that was not my intention. What are people's thoughts here? I think that if an unsupervised child were to come across a cache and find the matches, that there could be trouble, so I would vote for NOT having matches in caches.

 

For the record, I intend to take something back to the cache to replace my matches removal.

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Dont know if they are a banned item or not but it is always the type of thing I would remove from a cache. I have removed cigars, lighters, matches, alcohol and knives from caches all things that I think a small child should not get a hold of. Then i would leave something soft non flammable non edible and politically correct in its place :mad:<_<

Now if the cache involved a 2 hour hike to get to I would maybe think differently because unsupervised kids are unlikely to stumble upon it.

 

I think common sense dictates that some things are not suitible ever and others are ok depending on the circumstances surounding the cache. I wonder if flammible items could spontainiosly combust in the heat of summer? Or would a airtight container not provide enough oxygen for it to cause any problems.

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I thought they were listed in the guidelines as well and just checked them as well as the page for hiding your first cache. Neither say matches nor lighters for all that matters. If someone can point it out where either one of these are listed as prohibited items, please do.

 

I do think neither should be in caches and listed as well as prohibited items. Any word from TPTB on this?

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I see no problems with putting swiss army type knives in caches. I have placed several. Children should be supervised while caching, and adults should have control of their children.

Not all caches are found by other cachers. Sometimes a kid could be out riding his bike or just goofing around in the woods behind his house and find a cache. Those are the situations where finding matches might be a bad idea.

Edited by Jen&Sean
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Myself,

 

I see no problems with putting swiss army type knives in caches. I have placed several. Children should be supervised while caching, and adults should have control of their children.

No kidding. I see no problem with a good bit of the banned stuff. WATCH your children if you're scared of them finding an OMG! knife or matches in a cache.

Odds are these items are easily accessible in the home, they are in mine, and guess what, my kids don't mess with them.

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Myself,

 

I see no problems with putting swiss army type knives in caches. I have placed several. Children should be supervised while caching, and adults should have control of their children.

No kidding. I see no problem with a good bit of the banned stuff. WATCH your children if you're scared of them finding an OMG! knife or matches in a cache.

Odds are these items are easily accessible in the home, they are in mine, and guess what, my kids don't mess with them.

The knife in cache horse is already being beat on here.

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Myself,

 

I see no problems with putting swiss army type knives in caches. I have placed several. Children should be supervised while caching, and adults should have control of their children.

No kidding. I see no problem with a good bit of the banned stuff. WATCH your children if you're scared of them finding an OMG! knife or matches in a cache.

Odds are these items are easily accessible in the home, they are in mine, and guess what, my kids don't mess with them.

The knife in cache horse is already being beat on here.

Wow. He can look up a semi-related thread. This one is about matches, got a link for that? :)

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The way I look at it is... If a kid 12/13 years old can go to Wall-Mart and buy it, it shouldn’t be a problem putting it in a cache...

 

The argument that a young passer-by can find the cache and therefore that item shouldn't be there can be argued down to the point that only items appropriate for children 5 and under should be in a cache.

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Myself,

 

I see no problems with putting swiss army type knives in caches. I have placed several. Children should be supervised while caching, and adults should have control of their children.

No kidding. I see no problem with a good bit of the banned stuff. WATCH your children if you're scared of them finding an OMG! knife or matches in a cache.

Odds are these items are easily accessible in the home, they are in mine, and guess what, my kids don't mess with them.

The knife in cache horse is already being beat on here.

Wow. He can look up a semi-related thread. This one is about matches, got a link for that? :)

Yup, I directed the non-related last few posts about knives, to a more topical thread. You're welcome.

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As someone said above, to take all of this to a logical end, there should be nothing in a cache that is not suitable for a five year old.

 

OK, that said, pure logic doesn't always suit a situation. A few other good points were made here too. A pyro inclined kid (or adult for that matter) doesn't need a cache to supply his needs. However, from the basis of opportunism, finding matches might just suggest trying them out with a small camp fire, where as, while they are available in the home, so is Mom or Dad.

 

Now, with all of that said, a further point from above was on the aspect of cache location. In all reality it is reasonable (to me at least) to worry less about the contents of a 5x5 cache since there is little or no chance of an unaccompanied child finding it. By the same token, a 1x1 in the local park is where you should place the soft toys and such items. As for the ones in between - interpolate! The real danger, such as it is, is not from cachers and their kids finding 'dangerous' items in a box under a bush. It is clearly the junior muggle doing so. It is a real danger but while I will not leave matches, lighters, knives, WMDs in low number caches, neither will I worry too much about what I do leave. There will always be someone who can find an imaginative way to do harm with almost anything. I still have a mark on the back of my hand where I was stabbed all the way through it, with a pencil, by another kid in junior school. I will use common sense while being aware that I can not predict the ingenuity of others to do something really evil with, say, a piece of string and a button. But then, it's not my fault either. I am not the conscience of the world.

 

Just think twice and then think again about the suitability of what you leave. That refers to what others have placed too.

 

If the cache referred to in the original post was in a place accessed by unaccompanied kids then I would have taken the matches out also. Good move!

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what about a zippo lighter in the original box? i have a jeep zippo i have been saving for a first finders prize in a cache. there won't be any fluid in it. would that be ok?

That would be cool by me. I's suggest leaving a note in the box for those who don't know that explains that the lighter has no fluid, and until someone adds fluid it's completely harmless.

 

Personally, I'm a lot cooler with a knife being in a cache than matches. I don't mind the waterproof container but when I think matches in a cache I keep thinking that they're the kind that couldn't start a BBQ with a gallon of lighter fluid, but could probably burn down most of California by accident.

 

But that's probably just me.

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In general, I like there to be no matches, lighters or magnifying glasses available to kids. When they are lighting a campfire/stoves/lanterns, we give the Scouts matches, but I have seen them play with fire too many times to trust them. Best not to have matches in caches.

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In general, I like there to be no matches, lighters or magnifying glasses available to kids.

Good point! No flammable item of any kind should ever be allowed in any cache.

 

In fact, coins should never be left in caches, either. I mean, kids can get up to all kinds of trouble with those. And a small child might inadvertently try to swallow the coin and choke on it.

 

Come to think of it, no small items of any kind should ever be left in caches. They can be a choking hazard. And no balloons. They are especially bad.

 

Certainly no soap bubbles; kids might drink them. And no metal objects that could be sharpened into knives or other sorts of weapons. Pencils and pens can also be used as weapons; they need to be prohibited from caches.

 

Garbage bags are sometimes left in caches to aid with CITO, but I believe that those should be banned as well. A child might take the garbage bag out of the cache, place it over his head, and suffocate.

 

Clearly, metal cache containers must be banned. If a child picked one up and then tripped while carrying it, it could cause severe injury. But plastic containers are no better; they are not fireproof. Clear tupperware containers pose a special problem; if a child places water in one, it could potentially be used as a lens to start a fire. We can never allow that to happen.

 

These are just a few ideas for making caches safer. Please feel free to add your own.

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Here's my story. While in E. WA last week camping I forgot my matches. I'm not a smoker, so that happens!.....Anyway, when I was ready to start my campfire I had NOTHING to light the fire. Hmmmm, I had a waterproof match case in my fishing pack I haven't opened in years. Ok, out it comes and.......strike....strike....strike....no fire! The matches were all useless. Searching every nook and cranny, every pocket etc. did not provide that fire of warmth. Ok, now I was beginning to look for a wire that I could short a battery to to provide a spark. I searched the camping area for some slob smoker that might have tossed his matches. No luck.......It was getting dark. I just about jumped in the car and headed the 20 miles back to town to buy a lighter when a brainstorm hit me. I had a Buddy Heater that had a piezo lighter on it to light. DUH!....Ok, out it came and I lit that and used that for a campfire light. Flash forward to the next day and I'm out geocaching the wilds of the E. WA dessert. I see a geocache that hasn't been found since August. Fishing is lousy, so off I go. I climb up the nearly verticle climb as it gets dark and in short time find the cache. There in the cache is a nice looking Buffalo knife and a box of Coleman waterproof matches. What do you think I take?.....Matches of course! I used them when I got back to my campsite and started a nice hot fire. They went in my fishing pack and will stay there. I have no problem with a knife or matches in a cache. If kids don't know how to handle matches or a knife then they are too stupid to be geocaching. It's the adults you have to worry about!..... Enuf said about that!......:)

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what about a zippo lighter in the original box? i have a jeep zippo i have been saving for a first finders prize in a cache. there won't be any fluid in it. would that be ok?

Sounds good to me! A nice FTF prize. :)

 

Someone brought up the point about children and supervision... I thought the same thing, 'til someone suggested prisoners cleaning parks as part of community service, etc. While I doubt the more dangerous Criminals (sorry buddy!) are out there cleaning parks, hiding a cache with potential weapons on it could pose a risk if it is found by the wrong person.

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Oh come on!....it's the same stupidity that the airlines are saying now. You can't allow knitting needles or toenail clippers on the A/P......someone could attack the pilot. Even though they allow the lethal sharpened pencil aboard without a blink. Lets just ban all ammo boxes as geocaches then. I'm sure they would be much more usefull as a weapon than that little pen knife they found. Hey, they could throw all those little McD toys at you and choke you to death. Then your heirs could sue McDonalds for millions!......:)

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I once found a Nerf ball in a cache. What are people thinking? Heaven forbid a child found it, tried to swallow it and choked to death.

 

Edit: After paging through the posts, Fizzymagic said exactly what I intended to say, but much better. I also agree with Bug & Snake's premise that common sense is important. If your cache is hidden next the a playground swingset, you have to be careful what you put inside, whether it's matches, or anything else that might not be suitable for unspervised kids. If you have a 3, 4 or 5 star terrain cache then I don't see a problem with a Bowie knife (well I know TPTB do, bit I don't).

Edited by briansnat
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OK, picture a geocacher, lost in a blinding snowstorm, nearing hypothermia. Then he finds a cache with matches. Gets a fire going and it saves his life!!!!

 

As the "I know what's best for you" crowd likes to say, if it saves one life, its worth it.

Edited by briansnat
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OK, picture a geocacher, lost in a blinding snowstorm, nearing hypothermia. Then he finds a cache with matches. Gets a fire going and it saves his life!!!!

 

As the "I know what's best for you" crowd likes to say, if it saves one life, its worth it.

First of all, he should of been prepared and then he probably shouldn't of been caching.

 

Secondly the common sense thing that has been said throughout this thread should be used before treking out. If you are going to go caching, hiking or whatever, go prepared. That's why you should make a checklist of what you are going to need (and hopefully not need). All you avid hikers and backpackers know this. Can a kid go and buy matches in a store? I'm not sure. The only lighters we ever bought were the big aim-a-flames for the BBQ or fireplace. My 13 yr old never bought them. On the note of knives, can a kid go and buy one in the store? I know my wife had to fill out paperwork back in November when buying my son a BB gun at Walmart in Massachusetts. I'm sure different places/areas have different rules. As far as knives go, the rules here at geocaching.com say no knives. I have not seen anywhere that they say no lighters or matches. Personally I don't think they are a good idea. We all get discouraged with the bad press we get from time to time. Caches are getting found daily by muggles. Sometimes those muggles are nice, sign the log and let it be. Sometimes they take up the sport. Many other times they steal the cache or tear it up. A lot of what ifs could happen. But it would definitely be more bad press if soemone (not necessarily a child) took the matches and started a fire that went out of control. Let the investigation lead back to the cache and who left an ignition source in a cache like that. Then you also have to think about hte land managers who do check on these things and the agreements that some cache placers reach with land managers about dangerous things such as weapons and and etc not being left in caches. They probably won't think too highly of lighters and matches as well.

 

As a general rule of thumb, don't leave anything that you would not give a complete stranger you see on the side of the road, no matter of age. Because that is basically what you are doing. You know that anyone can come upon that cache. Whether a responsible cacher or not.

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How about:

"As a general rule of thumb, don't leave anything that you would not give a complete stranger you see in that same location, regardless what age." instead.

 

I'm likely to see people on the side of the road I wouldn't trust with a rock. On the other hand, if I'm a days walk from the nearest road halfway up a mountain, I tend to run into a different class of people.

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Myself,

 

I see no problems with putting swiss army type knives in caches. I have placed several. Children should be supervised while caching, and adults should have control of their children.

No kidding. I see no problem with a good bit of the banned stuff. WATCH your children if you're scared of them finding an OMG! knife or matches in a cache.

Odds are these items are easily accessible in the home, they are in mine, and guess what, my kids don't mess with them.

The knife in cache horse is already being beat on here.

Another link about beating a dead horse. Hey, I know, let's all take the time to research the old subjects and post a link instead of just using one minute of our time to post a thoughtful reply. :)

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I remember reading a post, not on the forums but on a specific geocache page, and noting that a cacher had removed some matches from a cache stating that it was against the rules and, in general, a bad idea. Today, I came across a cache that had two books of matches in a waterproof container. I removed them and wrote in the log book that it was a rule violation. When I came home, I searched through the rules, FAQ, and these forums, and I couldn't find anything saying that matches were agains the rules! I felt bad for removing them (I didn't have any trade items) and for leaving what could be construed as a a chastising log entry, although that was not my intention. What are people's thoughts here? I think that if an unsupervised child were to come across a cache and find the matches, that there could be trouble, so I would vote for NOT having matches in caches.

 

For the record, I intend to take something back to the cache to replace my matches removal.

I would have to agree with you and say no matches in caches. Temperatures inside the cache can get off the scale, especially down here in the SouthWest. Just a bad idea, IMO.

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It would be one thing bons if people left those things in only remote areas. But I know on hand 5-10 caches that we have seen knives themselves left in them. None of the caches I have found were considered remote. The furthest one in was 1 mile. One cache that I owned that is top on a big hill at a park (and a neighborhood at the bottom of the otherside) had a knife left in it. As soon as I saw it posted on the log, I went to retrieve it out. We have found other caches along greenways and in parks with knives left in them. I don't remember any matches or lighters. We ould of removed them probably as well. One cache had a couple of box cutters in them! Not knew in a sealed package either. But remember that many cache owners have a relationship with the land manager and leaving these things that can be construed in a negative light, does not help out those relationships. And then heven forbid that these items happened to fall in the wrong hands and something happened and they were trailed back to whoever left them there, it would be something I wouldn't want to deal with. And then the negative light it would leave. Geocaching is a sport and a game. We say it all the time. It's not caches hidden for survival. If you want to do those then that is fine. Make a survival cache and hide it somewhere in a remote area that generally only those that are hikers/backpackers will find. I'm not sure if there is a site that lists such things or not. I wouldn't be against listing them on my website for those people.

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On the issue of exploding lighters in a caches. Has there ever been a case of a lighter exploding--read igniting the fuel--at temperatures under 130°?

 

I Googled a couple of tests on lighters, here's one.. Looks like the famous brands can withstand a great deal of heat, on order of 165° plus, for extended periods of time. The ones that fail the test either cracked and released the gas, or exploded. I couldn't find any mention if the explosion was the container letting go forcefully or the fuel actually igniting.

 

While I can understand the temps within an ammo can in full Sun in the Southwest may have problems with lighters, but here in South Carolina, I'd say you'd be hard pressed to find a cache that had temps that would cause a lighter to explode.

 

I've yet to find any mention of the temps that cause matches to ignite, but it'd be fairly easy to find out. Anyone with some matches, a cookie sheet, an oven thermometer, and some spare time?

 

Answer some of these questions and we can put this argument to rest.

Edited by CoyoteRed
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Since safety matches require a chemical reaction of parts of the head to parts of the striker to ignite, they will not ignite under any weather conditions on Earth. You could go one step further and dip the heads in wax. It will help keep them dry and keep the sulphur compounds in the matchhead from decomposing over time.

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Fizzymagic:

Come to Southern California where it is super dry most of the year. (Evidenced by the big fires just a few months ago--by the way, our council's Boy Scout Camp had 40 structures burned in the fire--will take several million $ and a long time to fix)

 

You probably have not been in charge of a group of young people camping in a super dry area where one mistake can cause massive destruction. (The legal costs alone will bankrupt you-- and the fines for negligence can also.)

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Well I've never left matches in a cache.

 

The Legend of RegZ Fan III

 

February 28 by Coaster-COG (25 found)

Found this today with Xenophon10k. Creative hiding job Bjorn. I think we took the hard way to the cache though.

 

T: Nothing

L: A gun with extra ammo, 2 grenades

 

SL

[view/edit logs/images on a separate page]

[upload an image for this log]

Edited by Coaster-COG
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