Travel Bug Hotels

1.6k · March 3, 2004

I have been geocaching since 2002. When I started, travel bug hotels existed in only a couple of places, usually near airports, and were real caches that were called travel bug hotels as the intent was to offer bug holders a convenient way to drop them where they might go travelling a long way.

One of my first caches was not an official TB hotel, but functioned like that given its proximity to a number of tourist attractions and the interstate. It was, and it remains a real geocache.

The amazing thing is how fast and how far the concept has morphed from being a means of helping get travel bugs to really move into a means of trapping travel bugs and blocking the movement of these bugs. For the life of me, I can't understand why.

We are generally nice people (the ones I have had the pleasure to meet.) We are all reasonably well educated, and literate enough to read simple instructions, yet we don't follow them. We are nice to each other, yet there appears to be an element of antisocial geocachers that seem to really get their freak on by messing with other people's hobby.

Perhaps, in a more insightful philosophical moment, some inspiration would come to me to explain this rapid transform, but no such luck yet.

March 3, 2004

My thoughts on this? The proliferation of big bug grabbers resulted in a few people holding onto many many bugs. A good way to dump the bugs is to start a hotel, with all your collected (captive) bugs in it. Problem is, in a cache dense area (like mine)

there ends up being several/many big bug holders, resulting in many bug hotels - all holding many many bugs with little hope of going anywhere (because the other big holders have already seen all these bugs, wont bother to go get them)

"Restocking" the hotels is also found in this situation. (aka-dumping off more captives)

6.5k · March 3, 2004

Im not quite sure I understand pto's post. But Im also not in real cache/cacher rich place...

bigredmed, I would explain this change with growth and 'distance' between cachers.

If you think about it, your probably 'friends' with someone you don't really care for. Are you close buddy buddy with these person(s), no but you do interact when them at some point in some way. Your friends are friends with their friends who are of course friends with them.

I see the same sort of thing happening in caching, as more and more and MORE people get into this web or circle (or whatever shape you like), the people and actions diverge from what was once the 'group standards'. This is not all bad, new ideas, new talents, and more 'play mates' join. However, you have to take them all, Jeremy's pretty open with his clubhouse and all :lol: .

March 3, 2004

Im not quite sure I understand pto's post

I was replying mainly to this part of the original post:

The amazing thing is how fast and how far the concept has morphed from being a means of helping get travel bugs to really move into a means of trapping travel bugs and blocking the movement of these bugs. For the life of me, I can't understand why.

I agree with your post too - "it takes a village" -

6.5k · March 3, 2004

Im not quite sure I understand pto's post

I was replying mainly to this part of the original post:

The amazing thing is how fast and how far the concept has morphed from being a means of helping get travel bugs to really move into a means of trapping travel bugs and blocking the movement of these bugs. For the life of me, I can't understand why.

After reading your post for the third time, Its somewhat clearer. The 'prison' is to keep the travelers controled? And once someone has collected a bunch of bugs they start a hotel and dump the 'captives'? :lol:

March 3, 2004

The 'prison' is to keep the travelers controled? And once someone has collected a bunch of bugs they start a hotel and dump the 'captives'?

The "prison"s were created by cachers who held alot of bugs, and needed to "move" them. - so the hotel was born. Ive seen as many as 100 bugs tied up around here in hotels/motels (or "get togethers) for various lengths of time. When just about Every Bug to come thru st paul winds up in this cycle- that "controls" ALL bug movement, doesnt it?

The people who collected all the bugs, evetually Had to get them back out in circulation. Since they usually arent big on actually going to caches(and couldnt hit 30+ to drop all those bugs) they created the hotels- to give everyone else a "chance" at the bugs that had, until then been "captive" In a cacher dense area -many hotels, each holding many bugs- that many cachers in this area wont hunt, since they have all been logged already - makes it tough.

March 3, 2004

I'd still consider myself a newbie, but I catch on fairly quickly... especially to TB's, since it's very similar to my W.G. hobby. If I could hazard a guess, I'd say that it all has to do with the fact that more people are now creating hotels with the selfish desire to see it full of travel bugs all the time (much like a real hotel owner, right?) rather than supplying a hotel for the betterment of the community. Remember the thread a while back about the TB Jailbreak? I maintain that the wishes of the TB owner trump the wishes of a cache owner every time. I can't think of a legitimate reason for someone to prevent a bug from travelling.... except for the Cannoball Run! :lol:

Additionally, localized or wide-ranging saturation of the community with TB's could be to blame. I really dig the whole idea of travel bugging, and I would be happy to find one in ever cache I hunt. But if you're in an area where there are many caches with several TB's in each one, it could all come to seem rather pointless after a while.

I see it all as part of the risk of the game, myself. If you really want your bug to make it to Germany, get an envelope and mail it there!

YodaDoe

2.1k · March 3, 2004

At first I thought travel bug hotels were an interesting idea and could be fun. But the first one I attempted had created its own exit off one of the busiest freeway intersections in Oregon: I-5 merges with I 205. "take the dirt road between the reflector posts" Yea right! At 65 mph. GC.com could have been sued to its demise over that had there been an accident prior to the cache archive due to road crews dumping deer carcasses nearby.

Then I started seeing the tb minimum limits and take one leave one rules. This is a blatant abuse of travel bugs. Only the travel bug owner can make rules for a tb! Period!

Of course, what happens to anything left in a cache is up to the finder and a tb hotel owner has no legitimate gripe coming if someone picks up any or all tb's from that cache and leaves none.

4.7k · March 4, 2004

it's my thoery that a TB hotel is by its nture a dangerous place for a TB to be.

caches get plundred from time to time.

TB hotels are stocked with maany TBs

when a TB hotel goes missing, more TBs go missing than in the average cache plunder.

additionally, the proximity to interstates and airports is the very thing that makes these caches vulnerable.

so... if i really like a bug, i'm likely to rescue it from a hotel.

and yes, there is a trend toward hotel owners makeng rules about who can and cannot move these bugs, regardless of the wishes of the bug owner.

there's alos a tren toward bug owners making more and more rules about how the bug can and cannot be moved.

i'm thinking of making a stupid rules cache, with lots of demanding rules for everybody, and srict requirements about logging finds. i expect it to be very popular.

1k · March 4, 2004

i'm thinking of making a stupid rules cache, with lots of demanding rules for everybody, and srict requirements about logging finds. i expect it to be very popular.

Heh heh. I like this.

Personally, I think the travel bug restriction in a bug hotel (don't take one unless you leave one), is the lazy cachers way of keeping their travel bug hotel stocked with bugs.

I view a travel bug hotel as a place for travel bugs to go, so other might pick them up. I think if a cacher creates a bug hotel, he/she has taken the additional responsibility of making sure that his/her bug hotel is well stocked with bugs. That means, not hoarding bugs, but buying bugs and creating new bugs for the hotel to house. I have one bug hotel, that doesn't always have occupants, but I have four bugs, three of which are mine, sitting on my desk, waiting to be deposited in the hotel next week. The fourth bug, I found at a cache recently and am moving it along by placing it in my cache.

Most cachers, especially new cachers, probably don't have a ready supply of travel bugs with them, so to put restrictions in a hotel that you can't take one unless you have one is ludicrous, imo. My hotel won't be like that and I hope others will remove this restriction from their so-called hotels. Those aren't hotels, but prisons. But then, I've been down this road many other times and we still see them popping up all over the place.

March 4, 2004

In my area (30mile radius from my zip) I have 101 caches, and there are currently only 4 travel bugs among those. If i ever find a Bug hotel, I'll read the tags and take all the bugs that are going in the direction i'm headed. If i've planned ahead i'll be dropping off bug(s) that are headed the other way.

Rules are only as good as their ability to govern. What can a prison guard do to me if I break his rules?

If the problem is as bad as you make it out to be, it may be time to call for a nationwide TB Jail-break.

Took: 5 bugs headed west

Left: 5 good trade items

Clements Cacher

22k · March 4, 2004

The concept of a hotel is to provide easy access to a large container to drop/pick up travel bugs. Now if that’s supposed to mean that a hotel is just as difficult as any other cache, then hey, guess what, it’s a cache not a hotel. Prisons? dropping a bunch of bugs, required to stock bugs? Sorry not buying it. I haven't seen that rule posted on this site.

My complaint is the recent upsurge of “Well I’ve been caching since 18 ought 6, so therefore I say that, ……”

Edited for (minor) clarity

Edited March 4, 2004 by TeamX40

March 4, 2004

One of my TB's got stuck in this HOTEL for 4 months before it got picked back up by the person who put it in there. He seems to do a good job by managing his hotel. It seems he keeps track of how long a bug has ben in the hotel, and after so many days if it hasn't been picked up, he will remove the bug and place it in a different cache. I wish everybody would do this kinda thing to make sure the bugs keep moving along and don't get "stale" in a cache.

Edited March 4, 2004 by The Weasel

2k · March 4, 2004

Not all bug hotels are bad.

I currently have 3 placed in different rest areas that have been working fine for a few years.

I don't have a "take a bug, leave a bug rule".

These bug hotels are in Interstate rest areas are are really popular with cachers and since they are in rest areas they really get the bugs moving.

2.1k · March 4, 2004

One of my TB's got stuck in this HOTEL for 4 months before it got picked back up by the person who put it in there. He seems to do a good job by managing his hotel.

Four months is o.k.?

March 4, 2004

One of my TB's got stuck in this HOTEL for 4 months before it got picked back up by the person who put it in there. He seems to do a good job by managing his hotel.

Four months is o.k.?

Well, I guess since I have so many TB's going on that I wasn't to worried about it. I would be more worried if a cacher had the TB than a TB being in a cache for that long. It looks like the cache has lots of bugs, and the goal on my bug might have been in the area what people could do.

4.7k · March 4, 2004

i'm not saying they're inherently bad, i'm saying they're inherently more dangerous, simply from a mathematical point of view.

when a regular cache gets stolen, usually it's the same old mctoys that go missing. each TB hotel, even ones without restrictions and whatnot, will by nature take TBs with them when they go missing. most caches do not contain bugs. most TB hotels do.

concentrated TB population means concentrated risk. i'd prefer not to have most of my bugs places in that risky environment. for SOME of my bugs, however, such as ones entered in races, i'm willing to encourage the risk.

it's worth thinking about the realtive quality of the bug and the stability of the hotel.

March 5, 2004

Personally, I do not like TB hotels, the take one, leave one rule and have to agree with Flask on the "alot to lose when plundered". I traded travel bugs here at a TB hotel, it went missing with 2 of the bugs I placed and one I did not take because I did not have enough to leave, I feel totally guilty. Now there is a second TB hotel near my work that I think is in a totally inappropriate spot, I have made 2 trips there, first trip I traded a bug and placed my own bug, the second trip, I grabbed a bug of a friend here and it ended up in this hotel. I grabbed back right away and moved it along. Actually I am going by it tonight and I think I will pick up the 2 bugs that are there on the way home. It is bad enough when a cache goes missing with a TB, one of mine (cache with someone elses TB) disappeared over the winter. Going back this weekend for a second look now that the snow has melted abit to see if I can locate the cache. If someone makes a TB Hotel, I would have no trade rules, be hidden where it can be easily accessed but in such a way it will never be plundered, big order to fill.

4.7k · March 5, 2004

you're not talking about that hotel up below the parc mont-royal, are you? when it went missing a bug that was dear to several of it also went missing.happily, the bug i left there (the famished fork) DID escape before the great disappearing came. i'd feel bad if a bug i put there went missing with the cache.

actually, i KNOW the cacher who put the missing one there. she still feels bad about having sent it to its doom.

March 5, 2004

I'm still fairly new. I don't really mind TB hotels. Of course, I don't have any TBs out there traveling yet. I do keep an eye on the hotels in my area and if I see a bug sit there for a long time, I'd grab it. I haven't needed to do this yet.

If I came across a hotel that had limits as to how many were to be in it, I wouldn't stick to those rules if there was a trapped TB.

I also really like getting TBs moving. To me, that's a big part of the fun. Seeing this character move a little further along to it's goal. Being like this, I rarely pass up a TB. I'm probably wrong in doing this sometimes. I usually have no idea what the TBs goal is before I grab it. I do try to get it moving in the right direction, but it doesn't always work out that way.

F_M

March 5, 2004

Funny, I am new to this hobby. I just bought 8 TB's and currently have 1 on his way and 1 waiting to go. I have checked out the Bug hotels is the area and 1 was easily access to the area and hiden great. The other was difficult to get to and I never found it.

I am still on the fence when it comes to Bug hotels, but, I guess they are good if truely is a spot that offeres a lot of possible travel routes. Otherwise they are useless. :lol:

March 5, 2004

you're not talking about that hotel up below the parc mont-royal, are you? when it went missing a bug that was dear to several of it also went missing.happily, the bug i left there (the famished fork) DID escape before the great disappearing came. i'd feel bad if a bug i put there went missing with the cache.

actually, i KNOW the cacher who put the missing one there. she still feels bad about having sent it to its doom.

That is the cache, I think it had 3 bugs in it when it disappeared, I placed the other 2. I am going to go soon and have a look around there also to see if I can find it. I went to the other TB hotel by the airport tonight, I don't think it will survive past the first time the maintenance crew visits. It is located in a well groomed location and I could see the cache from the road.

March 5, 2004

i'm not saying they're inherently bad, i'm saying they're inherently more dangerous, simply from a mathematical point of view.

In my neck of the woods there are a few TB hotels that have been set up indoors, with the explicit permission and cooperation of restaurant owners. One (opening soon) in a pizza joint, one I have been to further away that is in a coffee shop, under a sofa. All the employees know what is going on, although not all of them quite understand it. This pretty much eliminates the Muggle factor.

TB hotels are actually good for goal oriented TBs, even if those TBs seem to sit for awhile. Cross country travelers who like TBs will pick up a pile somewhere, fly, and trade the pile for another pile at a hotel and then fly back. TBs that want to travel someplace specific move towards their destination this way (if done properly.)

"I just wanna roam" TBs should be picked out of hotels and put in circulation, unless they are in a cache-poor area where everyone is sick of them. What can thwart this is the minimum TB limit - suppose you pick up a roaming TB. Why bother to drive somewhere, possibly a good distance, just to trade it for another roaming tb? That's how those get stuck.

1.6k · March 5, 2004

I think the error came in approving the hotels with the minimum trade rules.

If you have a cache that functions like a hotel, your cache has contents wether there are TB's present or not. If its just a hotel and its emptied by a previous cacher, it sits empty for a long time.

I wonder if the way to get this situation improved is to stop approving these kind of caches/TB Hotels?

March 5, 2004

I have a bug hotel that sits three feet from my apartment door. Everyone on my floor knows about it and thought it was ok and no one has bothered it. I am just waiting for the snow to melt and to find a good place at a park next to the highway.

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?ID=112407

I had six bugs in my possesion and decided to make a travel bug hotel. I am not holding the bugs hostage since I am a TB lover and always make sure bugs don't stay in there. Once I made the TB hotel, I started feeling guilty that maybe I was holding them hostage, so I sometimes just grab the bug that's been in there for a while and put in a cache that gets heavy traffic.

I do admit though that I don't get much traffic, and I use it as my own personal cache sometimes, but it is open to the public, and I plan to move it to a nice park really soon.

Two other bug hotels that I know that do a good job is Gunner's and MaxB's hotels. Like me, they take lots of pictures of the bugs and give them new passports and make sure they get good care while they're there.

MaxB's hotel

Gunner's Hotel

Not all bug hotels are evil

March 5, 2004

I think the error came in approving the hotels with the minimum trade rules.

If you have a cache that functions like a hotel, your cache has contents wether there are TB's present or not. If its just a hotel and its emptied by a previous cacher, it sits empty for a long time.

I wonder if the way to get this situation improved is to stop approving these kind of caches/TB Hotels?

I don't think we need a rule here, plus how would you enforce this and have them not approved. Besides having some yelling from the "There Are Too Many Rules Camp" , you could just submit it with a minimal cache description, once it is approved, then add in the rest of your TB hotel rules to the description. I would most likely log the TB hotel even if it did not have a TB in it, if I was traveling through the area, if I had one, I would leave it, if the cache was well hidden. If it was local to me I would visit it often to trade TBs, so far the 2 here, 1 disappeared and the other I do not think it is in an appropriate location. Travel bugs disappear far to often as it is, to gather them up, keep them in 1 location and not allow anyone to take them unless they stick to the rules.

edit for spelling

Edited March 5, 2004 by Car37&Shnde

March 5, 2004

In my neck of the woods there are a few TB hotels that have been set up indoors, with the explicit permission and cooperation of restaurant owners. One (opening soon) in a pizza joint, one I have been to further away that is in a coffee shop, under a sofa. All the employees know what is going on, although not all of them quite understand it. This pretty much eliminates the Muggle factor.

Now this is a good idea. Little to no chance that it's going to be plundered. And in the instance of an assassin, at least there's a possibility of being spotted, so I would guess that it would be safe from them.

F_M

1.6k · March 6, 2004

I think the error came in approving the hotels with the minimum trade rules.

If you have a cache that functions like a hotel, your cache has contents wether there are TB's present or not. If its just a hotel and its emptied by a previous cacher, it sits empty for a long time.

I wonder if the way to get this situation improved is to stop approving these kind of caches/TB Hotels?

I don't think we need a rule here, plus how would you enforce this and have them not approved. Besides having some yelling from the "There Are Too Many Rules Camp" , you could just submit it with a minimal cache description, once it is approved, then add in the rest of your TB hotel rules to the description. I would most likely log the TB hotel even if it did not have a TB in it, if I was traveling through the area, if I had one, I would leave it, if the cache was well hidden. If it was local to me I would visit it often to trade TBs, so far the 2 here, 1 disappeared and the other I do not think it is in an appropriate location. Travel bugs disappear far to often as it is, to gather them up, keep them in 1 location and not allow anyone to take them unless they stick to the rules.

edit for spelling

Well I would approach it from a two pronged attack.

1. Don't approve TB hotels as caches at all.

2. State in the FAQ's that GC doesn't support rules on how many TB's can be taken from or left in a cache at a time. (If there are X bugs present, and you want to take them all, go ahead, but move them all within 14 days.)

As new cachers come into the game, the added TB Hotel rules will be questioned, the FAQ will be cited, and the rules attached to a given cache will be ignored. The TB hotel/prison will cease to be a problem.

6.5k · March 6, 2004

Well I would approach it from a two pronged attack.

1. Don't approve TB hotels as caches at all.

2. State in the FAQ's that GC doesn't support rules on how many TB's can be taken from or left in a cache at a time. (If there are X bugs present, and you want to take them all, go ahead, but move them all within 14 days.)

....

Could someone please explain to me what the 'current rules' for Hotels are?

I skimed the guideline and faq, but didn't see any reference.

March 6, 2004

As far as I know there aren't any rules for TB hotels, but some cache owners have generated rules for theirs, including the "leave-one-to-take-one rule". It is hard to enforce most TB "rules" anyway. Most things are guidelines or etiquette. "TBs must be placed within 14 days." Yeah, right. People do what they think is the right thing in their minds. The caches are the most regulated part of caching, because they actually can be controled. As Car37&Shnde pointed out, even if the equal TB trade thing was a rule, the cache owner could modify the TB hotel description after approval. They would have to be constantly policed to control that and that's too much interference from above for people's taste.

If TBs are separate "game" from usual items, then there is nothing against grabbing the entire contents from a TB hotel, IF you can help all of them, but unlikely.

1.6k · March 6, 2004

Well I would approach it from a two pronged attack.

1. Don't approve TB hotels as caches at all.

2. State in the FAQ's that GC doesn't support rules on how many TB's can be taken from or left in a cache at a time. (If there are X bugs present, and you want to take them all, go ahead, but move them all within 14 days.)

....

Could someone please explain to me what the 'current rules' for Hotels are?

I skimed the guideline and faq, but didn't see any reference.

There aren't any. This poses a problem as there are cache owners that want their cache to stay full of travel bugs so they institute a 1 for 1 trade rule on their own. TPTB don't do anything to block this rule so cachers tend to follow it, even though its not an official rule.

My suggestion was to simply add language to the TB FAQ that says when you see this kind of rule, its not an official rule, so don't feel like you HAVE to follow it.

Further, I would like to see a 14 day limit on holding TB's. At 15 days, your account is set to automatically redirect you to the TB's page,when you log in to remind you to move the bug.

March 6, 2004

My suggestion was to simply add language to the TB FAQ that says when you see this kind of rule, its not an official rule, so don't feel like you HAVE to follow it.

Here's the link to what Jeremy feels about these rules.

I agree with him. However, I do understand the hotel owner's view. Who wants to visit a TB hotel if there aren't any TBs in it? Exactly the reason it shouldn't be just a hotel. Make it a cache as well.

F_M

Edited March 6, 2004 by Fritz_Monroe

March 7, 2004

My suggestion was to simply add language to the TB FAQ that says when you see this kind of rule, its not an official rule, so don't feel like you HAVE to follow it.

Thing is, people get to know the cachers in their area and they're loathe to piss them off, so they follow their 'rules' if they can.

6.5k · March 7, 2004

Could someone please explain to me what the 'current rules' for Hotels are?

I skimed the guideline and faq, but didn't see any reference.

There aren't any. This poses a problem as there are cache owners that want their cache to stay full of travel bugs so they institute a 1 for 1 trade rule on their own. TPTB don't do anything to block this rule so cachers tend to follow it, even though its not an official rule.

If there are no guidelines defining what a hotel is or isn't, or can/can not be. How can you create rules for something not defined?!

Without specific rules, you have to default to things that apply to all caches in general. One thing that usually applies to all caches it that the owner gets to decide what the requirements are for a find...

Don't get me wrong any rules promoting a prison like state are BAD, and should be broken as often as needed, but if you can't say what is *wrong*, can you say what is *right*? (which goes back to the first part)

24.7k · March 7, 2004

My last cache was a roach motel. It has one rule. "Help the bugs with their goal". It's in as secure a location as a cache can be in. There needed to be one due to the sheer numbers of micro's clogging the cache pores of this town. Now there is.

They have a purpose. I was able to start it with a bug that had been hanging around too long in my cache bag. Of course now he's just hanging around the motel, but that is beyond my control.

2k · March 7, 2004

Further, I would like to see a 14 day limit on holding TB's. At 15 days, your account is set to automatically redirect you to the TB's page,when you log in to remind you to move the bug.

That would most likely take some major programming to set up the system to do that.

I've found if someone has a bug of mine for a while and you send them a nice e-mail usually they will give you a nice answer on why they still have it.

I personally think most bugs are lost to newbies who go out caching once or twice, pick up some TB's and then lose interest in the hobby. That will happen and not to much can be done about that either

Also in areas of the country like here in the Midwest and Northeash where it was 72 last weekend and is supposed to snow this weekend, we can go several months where people will not go out caching.

Personally I think it's sometimes kind of cool when you think your bug is all but gone and shows up several months later. :-)

Travel Bug Hotels

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