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TerraTrekkers

Gmrs Operating Rules

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We just purchased a pair of GMRS radios. We applied for the license online and received or called sign. Now the question. Does any one know if the FCC will send us more information in the mail? I'm wondering about proper operation of the units. Do we give our call sign when we sign on and off and that sort of thing? Where can we find the info on the web? We looked on the FCC web sight but were unable to sift through all the info to find what we needed.

Thanks

Jim

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I'm a little fuzzy on this. If I were to use the GMRS channels on my Rino without a permit, who is going to disclipline me?

I heard the same thing about the VHS we used on the lake, but never heard anyone tell us to get off the radio...

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If I were to use the GMRS channels on my Rino without a permit, who is going to disclipline me?

The FCC. Admittedly your chances of getting caught are slim, but the fine could be VERY substantial - between $7,500 and $10,000. As long as you don't tick someone off over something or another so that they report you, your odds of getting caught are probably somewhere around getting struck by lightning or wining the lottery.

 

While I do have GMRS radios, I'm waiting for the FCC to "get real" and realize that it's pointless to ask $75 for a license when there is no enforcement, the units are sold over the counter with no real supervision, and half of the channels are shared with an unlicensed service (FRS). I'm hoping for a repeat of what happened with CB licenses. In the meantime, I'm taking no chances - my personal experience is if I do something wrong when I know better, I get caught.

 

The VHF on the lake could be a tricker story. I'm guessing but that may be a licensed service where the users are more likely to get after people who are not following the rules. You may have gotten lucky on that one.

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If I were to use the GMRS channels on my Rino without a permit, who is going to disclipline me?

The FCC. Admittedly your chances of getting caught are slim, but the fine could be VERY substantial - between $7,500 and $10,000.

There are lots of folks who monitor GRMS and other simplex frequencies just looking for people to turn in for violating the rules.

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There are lots of folks who monitor GRMS and other simplex frequencies just looking for people to turn in for violating the rules.

No doubt, but unless you are a regular in the area and/or divulge information identifying yourself, I'm not sure as they can do anything. The FCC can't fine a nameless person or nameless company. If you don't ID, they'd have to track you down and find some way of identifying you.

 

Also, as long as you stayed off the GMRS-only channels, they wouldn't be able to tell if you were illegally using GMRS without a license or were using FRS which requires no license. The power difference isn't so big that it's obvious at a distance.

 

Even if you were caught, odds are as long as you played dumb and say "I didn't know that. I didn't read all the paperwork. I'll stop right away" you probably wouldn't get anything more then a nasty letter.

 

This is one of those issues I can argue either way. On one hand, it is illegal. I don't let others claim otherwise. I do follow the law, but in this case I have little respect for it. On the other hand, as long as you understand the situation, I really don't care what you do as long as you play nice with the other users of the channel and don't make false claims of that "it's OK".

Edited by GeckoGeek

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Marine VHF for recreational use is what the FCC calls Licence By Rule. In other words, if you follow the rules, you are covered. The FCC no longer requires a licence for recreational boater, that is why you were not questioned, you were legal. It is important to understand the requirements though. There are certain things you DON'T do with marine VHF. The FCC and Coast Guard will track you down and bust you hard.

FRS is the same way, licence by rule. I always felt the term "licence free" was a bit misleading. While you don't need a licence for FRS, there are rules that you are required to abide by.

GMRS is still under a licence requirement because of what GMRS is. GMRS isn't just 2watt low end radios sold at Target or Wal Mart. Licenced GMRS users are allowed up to 50 watts on 8 of the channel pairs. Repeaters are also permitted. I have both Ham and GMRS licences, and find both very useful. My family (extended) all have 35-45 watt professional mobile radios on GMRS, we have access to a repeater, and also have several commercial grade handheld radios. Unlicenced users are not a big problem, but rude, inconsiderate users are. There are certain rules that need to be followed, and certain things that need to be understood about the service. Unfortunatly there are always those who think it is funny to try to interfere with our legal and licenced use.

Kudos to you for getting you licence.

 

There is an excellent website that caters to GMRS users:

www.popularwireless.com

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Thanks for the informative reply! I'll also check that link. It probably only looks confusing on the surface, and I'm surely not intent on walking on others on the radio, or any sort of childish games, just want to keep in touch while outside (or inside)

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....."The FCC can't fine a nameless person or nameless company. If you don't ID, they'd have to track you down and find some way of identifying you......"

 

Do not bet your month's pay on this. The FCC has different equipment than the antiquated stuff of a few years back. Locating the source of a signal can be done with a speed and precision that is amazing. There have been truckers using VHF marine and ham frequencies on the road who have been cited. Although there is little publicity, these busts occur every so often.

 

Better to get the license where needed and not have to worry about it.

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Do not bet your month's pay on this. The FCC has different equipment than the antiquated stuff of a few years back. Locating the source of a signal can be done with a speed and precision that is amazing.

I'm sure they could - if they really wanted to. But because that would be quite a bit of work to actually get within visual range to identify something they really need some motivation. The question is - are you doing anything that would make them really want to?

 

For that matter, has the FCC done anything to clean up GMRS since those radios starting being sold over the counter?

 

There have been truckers using VHF marine and ham frequencies on the road who have been cited. Although there is little publicity, these busts occur every so often.

No doubt tipped off by legitimate users of those services. But unless you're running on a GMRS only channel (lack of ID being the tip-off), or being a jerk and generally getting people upset, I doubt if you'd ever get reported by the first level 'guard' much less fall within the cross-hairs of a FCC DF unit.

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I once pulled out my radio information and found the page for the license. Then I saw the 75 dollar fee and had to laugh. They have to realize that these things are sold over the counter. If they were seriouse about allowing the mass public to use the radios they should of known that even if they gave away the license a lot of people wouldn't do it let alone when they charge so much.

 

My friends and family channel is not in the range they worry about so I'm not going to sweat it.

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The place where I work has an IS dept. that is using gmrs without a license. I wish someone would get them! (They are contractors)

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I once pulled out my radio information and found the page for the license. Then I saw the 75 dollar fee and had to laugh. They have to realize that these things are sold over the counter.

Exactly. If it was $10, or even as high as $25 I'd probably do it just so I could use it with peace of mind. But not at $75. I'll just wait for the FCC to "get real" and avoid using GMRS until then.

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The place where I work has an IS dept. that is using gmrs without a license. I wish someone would get them! (They are contractors)

If you feel that way about them, report them. 1-888-CALL-FCC (1-888-225-5322)

 

Not only are they operating without a license, but according to the FCC web page

Non-individuals seeking new licenses for land-mobile radio service for short-distance two-way communications should refer to Private Land Mobile Radio Services.
It sounds like they couldn't get a GMRS license if they wanted to.

 

Just make sure they really are using GMRS and not FRS which probably would be legal.

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Ok hello to all, I wanted to say you guys whom have GMRS Radios,well yes you can buy them over the counter, and yes it a Federal Crime to break the rules they have Governing them since you are required to have a License on GMRS to Operate. Now a little advice on Enfrocement , it's not the FCC Man whom you need to worry about. it's the People using these types, these people listen to all the freq's all the time and if there is a thing going on and needs some attention or enforcement , well then they have ways to get in touch with the proper people. Im not trying to scare anyone just some free,friendly, advice and I do have some FRS Radios , but Have been a HAM radio Op for allmost 20 yrs now and I do have a License to operate on the Hams BAnds !! so I do know what and where to go there, I do not fool around with GMRS at all , but Like I say you are Dealing with The FCC, this is Federal, So If you have GMRS my advice is get legal and stay legal and you will have nothing to worry about !!! I know some Hams fairly close to me here , whom bought some GMRS and applied and got his licenses and did it so he could talk with his family, because they are not hams like him, So it works good fot that. But Do not think just because you have the GMRS you dont have to have the license, my free adivce again here is apply for the license and pay the 75 dollars or what ever it is and become Legal and use good opeartor Pratices and stay legal and enjoy them, then you have nothing to worry about, Because you travel around and there is no telling who will be listen to you and where they are !!! Or Think about getting into HAM RADIO and use the VHF and UHF there after you get your Ticket.

 

Happy Hunting :)

Continouswave

WV5V

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$75.00 over 5 years works out to 4.1 cents a day. Not a bad price for what you can really do with GMRS.

Not bad considering how often a lot of people use them.

Not bad considering how much you may spend on batteries for them.

 

The fact is, no matter what, the FCC requires a licence. Ignoring the requirements just sets a bad example. Sort of like CITO, or making fair trades.

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Couple of notes:

 

The comment was made "..they have to realize these are sold over the counter": So is ham gear and no one, reasonable, is screaming to not have to get a license. Remeber, you're not getting a license for the equipment, it's for the user.

 

The chances of them finding you are very slim: Pick up QST or get on the ham lists. It's not so slim anymore. The FCC is going after some of this with a vegence. Outbanders, illegal "wattage in the cottage" and the like are all feeling stronger enforcement.

 

They would have to get a visual or pretty close: Well, yes and no. Radios have a fingerprint like anything else and it is relatively easy to prove the radio that made the transmission. Possesion is generally enough to impose the fine. Fair, maybe not but your gonna spend a bundle to prove a point..

 

Just play dumb: Nah, won't work. If they catch you the onus is on you to prove your not guilty, just like in a vehicle. The airways are a privalage, not a right.

 

Bottom line: It's not worth risking my ham license or the fines, which I saw listed here as high as $10,000 when in reality, they are issuing them much higher by using "Each occurance" type penalties.

 

The other thing to do is stay on FRS until GMRS laws are modifed, which may or may not happen. I can see the possibility of them waiving it based on power output. Or, hey, take the test and get the family members to do the same. The no code is common sense type answers for the most part.

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The chances of them finding you are very slim: Pick up QST or get on the ham lists. It's not so slim anymore. The FCC is going after some of this with a vegence. Outbanders, illegal "wattage in the cottage" and the like are all feeling stronger enforcement.

Can you find any evidence that GMRS enforcement has been stepped up? I can't.

 

I looked all though the FCC enforcement letters on arrl.org and all I found was one guy who was using an expired license, another who was selling a ham radio HT that he advertised as being able to talk to GMRS because of a mod and a couple of jerks who got into trouble in other areas. Not one listing of a otherwise reasonable user getting busted for unlicensed GMRS in the past 28 months.

 

Now, admittedly, the arrl site only list those that touch on amateur radio. But I couldn't find any enforcement information on the fcc.gov site. If anyone claims that the FCC is stepping up enforcement of GMRS, I want to see a cite that points to an unlicensed user who was not causing malicious interference getting busted in the last two years. I'll even accept enforcement of FRS rules as evidence that they care.

 

From some of the things I see about GMRS on FCC's website, it looks like they are removing businesses from GMRS and turning it over for personal use. I suspect their interest in enforcement died around the same time.

Edited by GeckoGeek

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Well, if you held a vanity call for about 50 years, it would probably add up to around $75. :rolleyes:

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Have vanity calls been around for 50 years? :rolleyes: I've only had mine for a little over one...

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Not every enforcement action comes in the form of fines. The FCC will sometimes just send a carefully worded letter. This has happened in the past with unlicenced business users showing up on GMRS Frequencies. Reports have shown that shortly after receiving the FCC letter, unlicenced users move to the appropriate business frequncies with proper licencing.

 

Slim chances of being caught does not mean its ok to ignore the rules. Try to lead by example, others are watching.

 

When I hear licenced GMRS users (rare) I really appreciate the fact that they care enough to follow through. When I hear unlicenced users, or rude, discourteous users, it makes me think of litter along the trail. Yeah, the litterer probably isn't going to get caught. Yes it is easier to dump it along the side of the trail than carrying your trash to the trash can. It just makes a mess for everyone else.

Think of the airwaves as a nice trail, stay on the trail, don't bushwhack, pack out your trash, and be courteous to the others you meet along the way.

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I've never had the impression that HAM licenses at any level cost 75 bucks. Maybe I'm wrong about that.

Maybe after you factor in the time and materials to study for the test ... :rolleyes:

 

But you're right. Taking the test for a ham license is about $10. Since the FCC seems to be shifting GMRS from business to personal use, I wish they'd price it accordingly.

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Hi all, first post to the forums, I'm a fairly new geocacher, and have had my technician's class HAM license for about 4 years now.

 

I'm a bit sketchy on the GMRS rules, I'll be getting a Rino 130 when it comes out, and from what I read in the online users manual, the GMRS channels are optionally locked out (meaning you have to change a setting to enable them). I don't know about other manufacturers of GMRS/FRS radios, but I'm assuming they all have a similar way of locking you out of the GMRS channels unless you push a button or change a setting, thus agreeing that yes you have a license and you know if you don't you're illegally using them.

 

That being said, since I do have a HAM license, does that mean I also need the GMRS license to transmit on those channels? I'm assuming I'd need it, but would be interested if anyone knew differently.

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I'm assuming they all have a similar way of locking you out of the GMRS channels unless you push a button or change a setting, thus agreeing that yes you have a license and you know if you don't you're illegally using them.

News to me, but then I usually don't read manuals on something as simple as a consumer radio. :D

 

That being said, since I do have a HAM license, does that mean I also need the GMRS license to transmit on those channels?

If you want to be legal, yes you need a GMRS license. Being a ham you have more to loose if you got caught and would have a harder time pleading ignorance. (My prior posts on the subject were aimed more at the average user, not a licensed ham.)

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I actually started out with a GMRS license, just prior to getting my Tech ticket. I bought a Rino 120 at the time and wanted to Fully Use my toy.

 

Now I have the 130 (get it, you'll love it) and will most likely renew my GMRS license when it comes up.

 

Here's the best part. My whole family can use GMRS and for us and all of the convoying we do, that's a plus!

 

Todd - K7PKT

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That being said, since I do have a HAM license, does that mean I also need the GMRS license to transmit on those channels? I'm assuming I'd need it, but would be interested if anyone knew differently.

I am not a ham, but I thought that one of the requirements for getting a ham license was that one had to know which frequencies were allowed for use in that license class. If I'm wrong on this, I'm sure I'll soon hear about it. :D

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That being said, since I do have a HAM license, does that mean I also need the GMRS license to transmit on those channels? I'm assuming I'd need it, but would be interested if anyone knew differently.

I thought the same thing, that I could use my HAM ticket to talk on GMRS. Not true. They want your money.

 

W7CLC

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Speaking of GMRS, does anyone have a recommendation of a good (somewhat cheap) handheld GMRS radio?

 

I am mostly concerned with the longest range possible. I have seen some advertised as having 3 watts. Does that make a big difference over the usual 1 watt?

 

Thanks

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:lol: Let me get this straight. I just ordered 2 Cobra 3000 radios. I can use the FRS channels at 1/2 W with no licence. But I need a $75 licence for the 2W GMRS channels.

Plus..if I let my wife, friend, relative, etc., use the other radio (trips, hiking), then THEY ALSO need a license to use the GMRS channels.

So if the wife and I want to use these when we go camping, we EACH need a licence, which means $150 to Uncle Sam. For only 5 years.

Funny, the ads for the radios never tell you that, do they???

Helomech

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:lol: Let me get this straight. I just ordered 2 Cobra 3000 radios. I can use the FRS channels at 1/2 W with no licence. But I need a $75 licence for the 2W GMRS channels.

Plus..if I let my wife, friend, relative, etc., use the other radio (trips, hiking), then THEY ALSO need a license to use the GMRS channels.

So if the wife and I want to use these when we go camping, we EACH need a licence, which means $150 to Uncle Sam. For only 5 years.

Funny, the ads for the radios never tell you that, do they???

Helomech

Nope...that's not quite straight.

 

The license you are required to have is a FAMILY license. It is not a license for each individual radio, nor is it one license for each person in your family, it is ONE license for ONE family. According to the FCC:

 

(a) An individual GMRS system licensee may permit immediate family

members to be station operators in his or her GMRS system. Immediate

family members are the:

    (1) Licensee;

    (2) Licensee's spouse;

    (3) Licensee's children, grandchildren, stepchildren;

    (4) Licensee's parents, grandparents, stepparents;

    (5) Licensee's brothers, sisters;

    (6) Licensee's aunts, uncles, nieces, nephews; and

    (7) Licensee's in-laws.

 

When you look at it that way, there's great potential for sharing the cost of the $75.00 fee.

 

You, as a member of your family, become the licensee. Other family members (as defined in the guidelines) become station operators on your license.

 

Bret

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So the bottom line here is that as long as one stays on the FRS only channels, no license is required? Licenses are required for actually broadcasting on GMRS, not owning a unit capable of same?

What about the combo channels--GMRS/FRS?

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So the bottom line here is that as long as one stays on the FRS only channels, no license is required? Licenses are required for actually broadcasting on GMRS, not owning a unit capable of same?

What about the combo channels--GMRS/FRS?

From the FCC Web page

 

If you operate a radio that has been approved exclusively under the rules that apply to FRS, you are not required to have a license. FRS radios have a maximum power of ½ watt (500 milliwatt) effective radiated power and integral (non-detachable) antennas. If you operate a radio under the rules that apply to GMRS, you must have a GMRS license. GMRS radios generally transmit at higher power levels (1 to 5 watts is typical) and may have detachable antennas. The current fee for a new GMRS license is $75.

 

So to put it bluntly, you can own a FRS/GMRS radio, but you may not legally operate it without out a GMRS license even though you only use it as a FRS unit. This is probably to deal with enforcement concerns. The same logic that bans open beer containers in cars because a driver could claim that the bear is his passenger's, not his.

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Seems clear, BUT....

Motorala makes a Talkabout T5620 with 500 mw transmit power, 2 mile range--and 7 FRS channels, 8 GMRS Channels, & 7 shared channels

It walks & quacks like an FRS duck, but has a bullseye on its tailfeathers?

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It walks & quacks like an FRS duck, but has a bullseye on its tailfeathers?

If it transmits on GMRS-only channels, then it must be certified as GMRS even if it only puts out 500mW and/or has FRS-only channels.

 

Going by what the FCC has posted on their web page, if it's certified as GMRS, you must have a GMRS license to operate it.

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:blink: OK. I went online and applied for my GRMS license.

I registered and got an FRN.

Jumped through all the hoops, my credit card was approved, and I printed out the Forms 159 and 605.

Nowhere on either form is a call sign.

Do I get one??

Can I now use my radios without one??

helomech

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Do I get one??

Somewhere in the process you get one. It may be coming in the mail. You might check back on the web site to see if one's been assigned.

 

Can I now use my radios without one??

No. You must have a call sign, but you need not wait for the paper to arrive if you know what the callsign is. (Assuming that this plays by the same rules as found elsewhere.)

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The licence application is usually approved within 24 hours. A paper licence will be sent to you in the mail, probably will arrive in 2-3 weeks. As was said above, if you search the site your licence should probably be in the system by now.

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I actually started out with a GMRS license, just prior to getting my Tech ticket. I bought a Rino 120 at the time and wanted to Fully Use my toy.

 

Now I have the 130 (get it, you'll love it) and will most likely renew my GMRS license when it comes up.

 

Here's the best part. My whole family can use GMRS and for us and all of the convoying we do, that's a plus!

 

Todd - K7PKT

Cool, thanks for the vote of confidence. I got my rino 130 on order from offroute, but they haven't shipped it yet (it's my first GPS, and I'm itching to get it).

 

I notice in your profile you're from the washington state area. I'll be headed out there on a trip to visit my sister in everett the end of april, know of any good cache sites out there? Or if anyone wants to send a travel bug to St. Paul, MN?

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know of any good cache sites out there? Or if anyone wants to send a travel bug to St. Paul, MN?

 

There are many good caches - I'd post a question in the Northwest section and see. I'm E-WA, you're heading W-WA. Offer your TB courier service, they'll love it!

 

Got mine: WPZU728

 

Winnie the Pooh's Zany Uniform?

 

Why Plant Zinnias Uncle?

 

You're on your own for the numbers!

 

 

Heheh, had to remember mine by renaming the My Computer icon to it...WPXD965 - didn't want to try WayPoint Cross(X) Dresser.

 

Todd - K7PKT

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Going by what the FCC has posted on their web page, if it's certified as GMRS, you must have a GMRS license to operate it.

Just to be contentious :rolleyes: , I'm going to disagree with you here. Reread this part of the FCC web page: "If you operate a radio under the rules that apply to GMRS, you must have a GMRS license." -- emphasis added

 

So, if you have an FRS/GMRS radio and only transmit on FRS frequencies with a maximum of 500mw, then you don't need a license. Unfortunately, that's usually not possible on the interstitials, because the radios normally transmit using the higher GMRS power with no option to reduce it to FRS levels.

 

Of course, no one is going to buy a 22-channel FRS/GMRS radio and not use the higher powered capabilities, licensed or not. That's just reality.

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Just to be contentious :rolleyes: , I'm going to disagree with you here. Reread this part of the FCC web page: "If you operate a radio under the rules that apply to GMRS, you must have a GMRS license." -- emphasis added

Good catch. This is the kind of stuff where lawyers earn their money. The paragraphs that phrase was found in was talking about the radio's certification, but that one sentence fails to mention it.

 

By strict reading, you are correct, but I'm not sure as I'm willing to bet my ticket on what's written on that web page. It could easily be an error on the part of the writer. That page is informational, it's not the law itself.

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There is a short article in this month's Outside magazine about this issue.

They boil it down to the fact that the FCC is waaaayyy to busy with Homeland Security issues right now to give a rat's behind about GMRS violations.

 

Sure, there are people hunting down GMRS violators, but as has been mentioned here, they are unlikely to catch the everyday violator. They are more likely to find businesses with constantly transmitting devices at a fixed location.

 

I have a FRS/GMRS radio, but no license. I haven't used the GMRS channels. After finding out you need a license I went through every piece of paper that came with my radio. Not one even mentioned anything about a license. Pretty lame.

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Go mine too. :rolleyes:

 

Callsign: WQAA571

 

I called FCC by phone and I was told that I'll get the paper in the mail in 14 days.

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Answer to TerraTrekker (above):

===============================

 

GMRS, 1270 Fairfield Road, Gettysburg,

PA 17325–7245.

[63 FR 68975, Dec. 14, 1998]

 

§ 95.119 Station identification.

====================

 

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (e), every GMRS station must transmit a station identification:

 

(1) Following the transmission of communications or a series of communications;

and

(2) Every 15 minutes during a long transmission.

 

(:rolleyes: The station identification is the call sign assigned to the GMRS station or system.

 

© A unit number may be included after the call sign in the identification.

 

(d) The station identification must be transmitted in:

(1) Voice in the English language; or

(2) International Morse code telegraphy.

 

(e) A station need not identify its transmissions if it automatically retransmits communications from another station which are properly identified.

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I will add something here. Let your conscience be your guide.

 

Violation of an FCC rule is a federal crime. Under the best of circumstances, you get a written warning - a "slap on the wrist" so to speak. You are lucky.

 

If it goes any further than that, and even if you plea bargan to a lower sentence and/or fine, it is still a federal conviction.

 

Having a federal conviction on your record may have unintended consequences. For one, try to renew your concealed handgun license with that conviction. Heck with that, try to renew your ham license with a conviction for a violation of an FCC rule.

 

You can take it as silly or as serious as you like. I have a nearly perfect and spotless record. It isn't worth $75 to chance it for me.

 

BUT....

 

Let your conscience be your guide. It is a stupid law, and you probably won't get caught anyway. And meybe your record is already soiled, or you con't give a hoot about a concealed handgun license, or a ham license. And you might lie about it when you apply for anything that asks if you have ever been convicted of a crime.

 

YEP....

 

Let your conscience be your guide.

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Or just keep it real simple. Pick up some MURS units on clearance at Radio Shack 25 watt VHF for $40. MURS should be just as effective for "family" communication (not counting repeaters) and should perform better in the woods than GMRS (VHF vs UHF). Plus it is license by rule (no real license required).

 

By the way why would anyone want GMRS to end up like CB? CB is actually becoming usable again due to the fact that it got so screwed up everyone stopped using it. (I only use mine in the jeep for trailriding).

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