Come Flame Me

[WH]

Earlier today I logged this cache. I then get the following email:

 

"Of all the stupid things you have ever done, this is the worst! You

ripped open some kid's birthday present. You are a clueless, tactless,

ignorant son-of-a-$%#@! Do the right thing, or there'll be the biggest

flame session in the forums that you EVER saw."

 

I just thought Id help him out and start the flame session for him.

[+Tiwica]

No flames from me. If they wanted a certain person to be FTF then they should have not posted it for approval before informing that person of the coordinates first. You did nothing wrong in my opinion.

[Tahosa and Sons]

Sounds like you need to go muggle that Cache, and put it in the Trash Can.

[+carleenp]

It took me awhile to even understand. Now I see that they wanted the kid to be FTF. The problem is that they didn't make that very clear. Instead it was buried in text that some people might never read. On top of it, as soon as they post the cache they can't really stop others from getting there first. A better option for them would have been to hide it, give the kid the coords to find it and then post it after that.

 

I suppose to appease them though you could offer to change your find to a note until after the Kid finds the cache. Seems kind of silly though.

Edited February 20, 2004 by carleenp

[+Snoogans]

It took me awhile to even understand. Now I see that they wanted the kid to be FTF. The problem is that they didn't make that very clear. Instead it was buried in text that some people might never read. On top of it, as soon as they post the cache they can't really stop others from getting there first. A better option for them would have been to hide it, give the kid the coords to find it and then post it after that.

 

I suppose to appease them though you could offer to change your find to a note until after the Kid finds the cache. Seems kind of silly though.

Well I missed the fine print too. I'll look again...

 

Sn gans

[+Snoogans]

It took me awhile to even understand. Now I see that they wanted the kid to be FTF. The problem is that they didn't make that very clear. Instead it was buried in text that some people might never read. On top of it, as soon as they post the cache they can't really stop others from getting there first. A better option for them would have been to hide it, give the kid the coords to find it and then post it after that.

 

I suppose to appease them though you could offer to change your find to a note until after the Kid finds the cache. Seems kind of silly though.

Well I missed the fine print too. I'll look again...

 

Sn gans

FOUND IT! I don't usually read that stuff on a cach that I'm about to hunt.

 

That's why it says, "WARNING, may contain spoilers!"

 

Sn gans

[+Harrald]

I have to say that it's the fault of the cache hider. I don't even read the cache page until I'm at the cache site and I'm having a problem finding the cache.

 

Listing a cache on this site opens it up to someone hunting it.

[+Snoogans]

Earlier today I logged this cache. I then get the following email:

 

"Of all the stupid things you have ever done, this is the worst! You

ripped open some kid's birthday present. You are a clueless, tactless,

ignorant son-of-a-$%#@! Do the right thing, or there'll be the biggest

flame session in the forums that you EVER saw."

 

I just thought Id help him out and start the flame session for him.

Not a flame really, but when someone goes off like that there is usually (not always, but usually) a reason for it. You and the other guy may need to patch up some other hurt feelings that led up to this.

 

Sn gans

[+The Leprechauns]

"Reserved FTF" has been brought up previously in the forums. The cache owner, who lives in Washington, was flamed mercilessly for several days. What's good for that cache owner ought to be applicable everywhere. Once a cache is listed, it should be available to find.

 

Besides the alternative offered above (giving the coordinates out in advance, prior to listing the cache), I've seen another solution that has worked great. Hide the cache, and include the logbook and some trade items, but also include a conspicuously marked separate package within the cache that says "please save this special gift for [name of cacher]."

[+JMBella]

I EXPECT that Downy will get the FTF on this cache.

... is a far cry from I would like Downey to get the FTF or please allow Downey the FTF. If it said that, then I might flame you. I EXPECT leads me to believe it's up for grabs but he EXPECTS Downy will get it first. Downy didn't. Happy Birthday to Downey though. I think it's the thought that counts. Cool_librarian think highly of you to place a cache in your honor. I think that's great.

 

I love my FTFs, but if a cache owner asked people to hold off for something like this I probably would. In this case though I don't see that he did that.

 

I was just wondering WH, do you typically do stupid things? Is there some underlying anger cool_librarian has for you?

Edited February 20, 2004 by JMBella

[+bigredmed]

To be honest, like some of the earlier posters, I had to re-read the cache page to find the comment about the intended first finder. The hider was out of line as there is an established protocol for gift caches (that is don't post the thing till the intended recipient has found it).

 

As with Snoogans, is there some pre-existing bad blood between you and the cache owner?

[+Gazza&Girls]

The only flames I have are ones to light the candles.

I read the "I expect" but I didn't take it to mean "hands off". I took it as they had some advance warning of the cache.

 

G.

[WH]

Cool librarian wasnt the one who sent me the email. The sender of the email is a VERY well known cacher throughout New England.

 

As for other supposed stupid things, I guess thats a matter of opinion. Most of my cache finds have been after dark which doesnt sit well with other cachers.

 

Im also a BIG fan of the FTF race. I have, so far, logged 133 caches and 32 of those were FTF's.

[+The Weasel]

I agree to most of the stuff here. I say maybe instead of coming out and asking us to "flame" the guy, maybe he just needs to be educated on his verbage for placing his cache for the next time. I just feel that it was unfortunate for both sides, but the cache hider could have addressed his displeasure a little nicer. IMHO

Edited February 20, 2004 by The Weasel

[+The Weasel]

Cool librarian wasnt the one who sent me the email. The sender of the email is a VERY well known cacher throughout New England.

 

As for other supposed stupid things, I guess thats a matter of opinion. Most of my cache finds have been after dark which doesnt sit well with other cachers.

 

Im also a BIG fan of the FTF race. I have, so far, logged 133 caches and 32 of those were FTF's.

Ohhhhhhhhhh, if it wasn't the cache hider him/her self, I wouldn't sweat it.

[+Snoogans]

As for other supposed stupid things, I guess thats a matter of opinion. Most of my cache finds have been after dark which doesnt sit well with other cachers.

 

Im also a BIG fan of the FTF race. I have, so far, logged 133 caches and 32 of those were FTF's.

About half of my finds are after dark. Nearly ALL of my FTF's are from night raids. That's the only way to get the jump on the usual suspects here. If you have 32 FTF's then you ARE a usual suspect and they just can't take it. Too bad and grey hair for them.....

 

Sn gans

Edited February 20, 2004 by Snoogans

[+sept1c_tank]

The email said:

Do the right thing, or...

What do you suppose he meant by "the right thing?"

[WH]

I just received the folowing email from the cache owner:

 

Hi WH,

 

I was disappointed to find that you had logged a FTF on the 16 Candles

cache this morning. I was hoping that the fact that this was a birthday

cache for a kid, combined with my saying that I EXPECTED that Downy

would get FTF on it may prevent others from hunting it until he had

logged. I realize that I was not explicit, but I didn't think I needed to be

- and after WR's note on the cache page, I thought everyone would give

him the FTF honor.

 

Downy is a kid who does not yet have his license - he was waiting for

his GRANDMOTHER to travel here from Plymouth this morning to take him to

the cache at 10am.

 

I realize that this is a "game" without many "rules," and that's part

of what makes it fun - but you seem to be intent on ignoring the

specific wishes of cache owners if it suits you to do so. You said in a forum

posting that you hunt for FTF and do not apologize for your tactics,

and that's fine. But you also said that you would be just as happy NOT

logging your finds online - perhaps this should have been one of those

times.

 

My request that Downy be FTF was not arbitrary - this was a cache for

his birthday, for heaven's sake!

 

I am asking that you change you log to a note wishing him a happy

birthday. I don't know you, nor do I have anything against you personally.

But you expressed a desire once to "restore me to good standing within

the geocaching community" - in my opinion, this was not the way to do

it.

[+JMBella]

Cool librarian wasn't the one who sent me the email. The sender of the email is a VERY well known cacher throughout New England.

 

As for other supposed stupid things, I guess thats a matter of opinion. Most of my cache finds have been after dark which doesnt sit well with other cachers.

 

Im also a BIG fan of the FTF race. I have, so far, logged 133 caches and 32 of those were FTF's.

So far I have no problem with anything you just posted. Do you go night caching when parks are closed? That might be a problem only because it would reflect badly on geocaching. But I assume if you were nabbed in a park at night you wouldn't mention geocaching. I have 33 FTFs out of 300+ finds. Nothing wrong with that. In fact I need to catch up to you in the percentage dept.

 

Do this: Email the cache hider. Say I thought it was cool to go after the cache since you posted it on the site. I hope that doesn't bother you. If there was a particular prize in the cache intended for only Downy let me know. (or something like that)

[WH]

There was a specific prize in the cache meant for Downy which I left alone.

 

I simply signed the logbook and TNLN

[+pnew]

In the most educated way I can put this, the guy who sent you that e-mail is a dork. If not getting a FTF on a geocache/present was the highlight of this kid's 16th birthday I really feel for the kid. This game... geocaching... makes some people crazy. They should probably have just staid in bed today.

[+The Weasel]

There was a specific prize in the cache meant for Downy which I left alone.

 

I simply signed the logbook and TNLN

I still say don't sweat it. I wouldn't personally change my FTF to a note either. What would have happened in GRANDMA was in car accident and got turned into a greasy stain on the highway? Are we to assume that was going to be the day they were going to be going out? I say send the owner a quick note apologizing for the misunderstaning, but emphasize that they did not SPECIFICALLY state it was a "reservered cache". Like it has been said earlier, once its posted its open game!

Edited February 20, 2004 by The Weasel

[Tahosa and Sons]

Happpy Birthday Kid:

 

[+Life Journey]

I don't think you did anything wrong. It would be different (and the way the original email from the cache owner read - it sounded like) if you had taken a gift meant for the 'birthday boy'. But my take here is that 16 years old is no 'kid' who should be getting upset because his log is not the first smiley face. I personally believe the cache hider is over-reacting, but I'll admit, I view this as a GAME - a fun, exciting game, yes, but a game nonetheless.

[+Cool Librarian]

To be clear, I did not send that e-mail to WH. I did send an e-mail, but it was worded with a bit less anger, and simply asked him to change his log to a note until Downy posts his find. Though this is retroactive and may seem silly to some, the cache was a present to a KID, afterall.

 

Yes, the person who sent the e-mail and WH have a bit of a history with each other.

 

I guess I was not clear enough on my cache page, and perhaps I should have sent him the coords first - I admit that I didn't think of that. And I guess I wasn't more specific in my request because caching here in RI has been slow this winter, and there are only a few of us FTF hunters in the immediate area anyway - and, yes, I am one of them.

 

I also did not realize that many people do not read the cache pages - this NEVER occured to me, perhaps because I am a librarian, and it is in my nature to read EVERYTHING

 

If I do something like this in the future, I will be more specific - and I am certainly not above admitting when I have made an error in judgement. I guess I was assuming that people read the cache pages, and that common courtesy (explicit or implied) would kick in.

 

Just wanted to clear up the matter.

Jessica

[+JMBella]

There was a specific prize in the cache meant for Downy which I left alone.

 

I simply signed the logbook and TN LN

The owners email was fair and courteous but, I don't think you did anything wrong. I wonder if the owner had been more specific if you would have done anything different. Like I said I probably would have held off. Although I sure a hell would want to be the second to find. Here's what I would do. If the FTF is important to the birthday boy and only him, I would change the find to a note, let him log in, then log my find after him. That's just me. I lean toward keeping the peace. That being said the first email you got made it really easy for you to just say "fudge everyone, this is my FTF." Be the bigger person here. Everyone knows you found it first, give the kid the satisfaction of logging it first.

[+The Weasel]

It sounds like both parties have expressed their opions and mutual misunderstandings. I say to keep the "peace" this topic can be closed. IMHO

[+briansnat]

You could send that e-mail to this website and report it as abuse if you want. I really don't get it. Posting a cache, then reserving the FTF for someone, for whatever reason is plain foolish. Like Harrald and many others, I often don't have the cache page, since I download the waypoints directly to my GPS through PQ's .

 

If she was so concerned about this kid getting a FTF, the owner should have e-mailed him the coordinates, then posted the cache on this website afer he found it.

 

And I don't really see their beef anyway. So you found it first. Big freakin'' deal. You left the "gift" so the intended person would get it. What are they mad about...you getting your fingerprints on the cache container?

Edited February 20, 2004 by briansnat

[+sept1c_tank]

You can't change history. Leave the log. The kid will be a better kid for it. He's nearly an adult and life isn't always perfect...Maybe years from now he'll laugh about it when he tells his kid.

[+JMBella]

To be clear, I did not send that e-mail to WH. I did send an e-mail, but it was worded with a bit less anger, and simply asked him to change his log to a note until Downy posts his find. Though this is retroactive and may seem silly to some, the cache was a present to a KID, afterall.

 

Yes, the person who sent the e-mail and WH have a bit of a history with each other.

 

I guess I was not clear enough on my cache page, and perhaps I should have sent him the coords first - I admit that I didn't think of that. And I guess I wasn't more specific in my request because caching here in RI has been slow this winter, and there are only a few of us FTF hunters in the immediate area anyway - and, yes, I am one of them.

 

I also did not realize that many people do not read the cache pages - this NEVER occured to me, perhaps because I am a librarian, and it is in my nature to read EVERYTHING

 

If I do something like this in the future, I will be more specific - and I am certainly not above admitting when I have made an error in judgement. I guess I was assuming that people read the cache pages, and that common courtesy (explicit or implied) would kick in.

 

Just wanted to clear up the matter.

Jessica

I don't think asking players to hold off for a while in a situation like this is asking too much. Problem is, WH didn't read it like that, neither did I and apparently neither did anyone else here. It's a great gesture on your part. I hope it all works out.

 

I also did not realize that many people do not read the cache pages - this NEVER occurred to me, perhaps because I am a librarian, and it is in my nature to read EVERYTHING

 

You're a librarian? Cool! I never would have guessed that.

[+Snoogans]

To be clear, I did not send that e-mail to WH. I did send an e-mail, but it was worded with a bit less anger, and simply asked him to change his log to a note until Downy posts his find. Though this is retroactive and may seem silly to some, the cache was a present to a KID, afterall.

 

He's 16 and while that's very young, I'm sure he doesn't want to be patronized as such by fellow geocachers...IMHO.....

[WH]

That email has been forwarded to the appropriate Groundspeak email. Whatever his beef is with me, which I really dont understand, emails like that are unwarranted.

 

I actually edited the email to make it forum friendly. In the actual text of the message there are no symblos to cover over the profanity

[+Renegade Knight]

I had to read it twice to catch the line. Strange how language works like that. Cool Librarian and Wanderlost (both who have now had FTF reserved caches brought up in the forums) have been good contributors to the forums so I don't question their motives. Just the result.

 

When you list a cache you run the risk that people won't read the cache listing, or that like Harrald they will hunt blind and not even scan it. Several of us read it and using modern ninja reading tricks missed completely the line delevered in that stern text about reserving the FTF.

 

All in all when you get the urge to reserve a FTF it looks like you should start the cache out private and open it up later. That generates enough controversy as it is,but at least it's a known quantity in this game.

[+Cool Librarian]

Holy crap! All of this was never what I intended.

 

JMBella - thank you for your nice words and understanding.

 

BrianSnat - I think I explained why I wasn't more specific, and that in the future, IF I ever do this again, I will go about it a different way.

 

I certainly did not mean to patronize Downy - he is a great cacher with a hell of a lot more finds/hides than me! I was just trying to be nice - and, he's not old enough to drive, so I thought I could buy him some more time to get to the cache.

 

WH - If you don't want to change your log to a note, I am not going to delete your find - I don't operate that way. But I do feel that discretion is the better part of valor.

 

Edited for silly typos!

Edited February 20, 2004 by cool_librarian

[+Shoebugs]

I am so sorry about the hurt feeling and controversy over this topic, but I'm glad it came up. We are always learning more about the game and some of these things aren't covered on the main page. Sometimes, we just use the information that is stored in the GPS and don't even know what the page says. What a good lesson in Caching etiquette. I would not have understood that this one was off limits till the birthday boy found it but I did certaily see that it is a daylight only cache. I hope this gets resolved in a manner that suites everyone.

 

Shoebugs

Arizona

[+The Weasel]

Come on everybody join in, you know the words......."What the world needs now, is love sweet love...."

[+Cool Librarian]

HA HA HA HA HA HA!

[WH]

I just want to make one thing clear. It WAS NOT Cool Librarian who sent the initial email. I have no problems with her. Ive met her once and shes a wonderful lady whos a real asset to the GC community.

 

As far as the cacher who DID send the email, I wont comment.

[+JMBella]

Just wondering why the Birthday Boy has not logged in yet?

[+rover-r-us]

No flames from me. If they wanted a certain person to be FTF then they should have not posted it for approval before informing that person of the coordinates first. You did nothing wrong in my opinion.

i agree.

[+Cool Librarian]

WH - thanks for that clarification. Though it's been mentioned twice, I think some people still missed it. Hmmmm, don't think I've ever been called a "lady." I may have to run out and get a seventh tattoo so that that doesn't happen again!

 

We all have to figure out our own intentions and ethics. And I think we all have to learn to admit when we have made a mistake, big or small. I made a mistake in the wording of my page, and I take responsibilty for the consequences of that. My intentions were good, and I think Downy knows that.

 

It's all water under the bridge at this point. I certainly did not anticipate hurt feelings, and I hope that those who were so quick to question my motives / tactics now understand what I was trying to do.

Edited February 20, 2004 by cool_librarian

[+Snoogans]

We all have to figure out our own intentions and ethics. And I think we all have to learn to admit when we have made a mistake, big or small.

Yes, that's good.

 

"Everyone plays their own game. There is no sense in trying to police another's mindset as long as it falls within the general parameters of the game." Me (quoting myself from the poll that I posted on 10/23/03.)

 

Most of these situations arise when someone transfers their own personal code of conduct to someone else. When they try to enforce it, the results aren't pretty.

[Colonel Mustard]

Just wondering why the Birthday Boy has not logged in yet?

Or the original E-mailer????

[+The Weasel]

WH - thanks for that clarification. Though it's been mentioned twice, I think some people still missed it. Hmmmm, don't think I've ever been called a "lady." I may have to run out and get a seventh tattoo so that that doesn't happen again!

 

We all have to figure out our own intentions and ethics. And I think we all have to learn to admit when we have made a mistake, big or small. I made a mistake in the wording of my page, and I take responsibilty for the consequences of that. My intentions were good, and I think Downy knows that.

 

It's all water under the bridge at this point. I certainly did not anticipate hurt feelings, and I hope that those who were so quick to question my motives / tactics now understand what I was trying to do.

A librarian with tattoos? The only thing sexier is a nun wearing leather chaps and a "West Coast Choppers" stocking cap!!

 

(I'm just jealous, I only have 3 tatts )

[+woo2]

Yeah, this was rather presumptuous of the cache owner. The fact is that this is a public game and it's a total free-for-all, the only real rules are not to damage the environment, break laws or ruin the game for others. If they wanted it private, then they shouldn't have posted it for all to find until AFTER the kid's FTF, and stuck it in as soon as it was approved. Even with a "Please reserve FTF", it can only be viewed as a request which won't necessarily be honored (or even noticed) by searchers. Some just DL coordinates.

 

I understand their disappointment, but that flame was totally unwarranted and selfish, possibly worthy of a reverse flame!

[+Geo Ho]

What can I say that hasn't already been said.

 

Ditto, ditto and ditto.

 

WH, I don't think you did anything improper and you shouldn't change or delete you log.

 

Whoever sent you that e-mail is a bonehead and I would forward it to TPTB and let them address it.

 

Cool_Librarian is seems like a nice person with great intentions that went awry.

 

Everybody just chill and relax. Everything will be oooooookay!

 

That is my opinion . . . such as it is.

 

Happy caching and stuff!

[WH]

Whoever sent you that e-mail is a bonehead and I would forward it to TPTB and let them address it.

 

Already forwarded.

[WH]

I am VERY tempted to announce to the forum the name of the initial cacher who sent the email.

 

Would there be any negative reprocussions to doing that?

[+Stunod]

I am VERY tempted to announce to the forum the name of the initial cacher who sent the email.

 

Would there be any negative reprocussions to doing that?

That's probably not a good idea...let TPTB work it out.

I'm sure many people have already guessed who it is anyway...

[+Sparky-Watts]

For what it's worth (which ain't much) I agree that WH shouldn't change his find to a note. He found it first, and apparently didn't cheat to find it, so he should keep it. Also, Cool Librarian has been more than accomodating since the incident arose, and I respect her for admitting her own mistakes and not deleting the log of WH. I read through the cache page a few times, and in no way does it tell me that the FTF was explicitly reserved for the kid. The wording gives me the impression that perhaps the kid is an avid FTF hunter, and that it was expected as such that he would be FTF....not that others would lay down and allow him to be. Some people have a way with words, and some....ummm....not have got......learn from your mistakes, take the suggestions in this thread as constructive, drop the issue and move on.