Knives In Geocaches

[Major Catastrophe]

Here in Oregon, a lot of the forest we play in was/is planted by prison inmates on work details, and much of the trail maintenance in many of the state parks is done by (you guessed it) the same folks. Point being, the chance of an inmate stumbling upon a cache isn't all that remote. Keeping weapons and hazardous tools out of caches is just doing a favor for the kids who get there 5 minutes ahead of their parents, for the parents of the kids, for the supervisors of the inmates and, yes, for the inmates themselves.

 

Besides, it's against the rules. What's so hard to understand?

 

If someone really feels they need to include something like a knife, maybe as a signature item, then consider printing a certificate that the finder can mail to you to claim the item.

[+eddthejailer]

from now on i am going to announce on my cache home page that knives are a no-no and all knives i find during maintenance or see left in a log will be taken out and destroyed.i suggest all you non-knife peps do the same.it's for the health of our sport guys come on...join in the no weapons train huh!!!

Edited February 18, 2004 by eddthejailer

[+º]

The rules say NO KNIVES! 

 

What kind of rules? I thought GC.com calls them guidelines ...

 

GC.com:

Use your common sense in most cases. (...)  shouldn't be placed in a cache. As always respect the local laws.

 

Captain Barbossa:

... and the rules are more like guidelines, anyway

[+Team HomestarRunner]

I've only been caching for two months now and have destroyed a boxcutter and an x-acto knife, and will continue to do so. I just don't see that there is any place for them in this sport. PERIOD!

[+briansnat]

all knives i find during maintenance or see left in a log will be taken out and destroyed.

 

Destroyed? Send them to me. I'll pay postage! A good Swiss Army knife isn't cheap.

Edited February 18, 2004 by briansnat

[+woo2]

There are certainly many caches where a knife wouldn't be a problem at all, that only a capable adult could reach. There are others where it would be a bad idea, for children's safety or security reasons.

 

I think the best summary is as follows.

 

Since it is really a judgement call as to whether a knife would be appropriate or not, and the judgement of some people is questionable, and I can't think of any reason why a knife NEEDS to be in a cache... Taking the conservative route of the No Knives rule definitely makes sense.

 

We don't want geocaching stuck with the reputation of having potentially dangerous items in them. You know how that gets out of control fast.

[+Brian - Team A.I.]

No matter how you look at it, there's always going to be SOMETHING about Geocaching that can be complained about.

 

(warning: potential run-on-and-on-and-on sentences)

For example, a logsheet could cause a paper cut, which might lead to a massive infection because the ziplock bag was torn, it rained and caused mold/mildew to form.

 

Someone could scratch themselves on an ammo can that has rust, requiring a tetanus shot...or a finger could be injured when the cacher accidentally closes/locks the lid on their digit.

 

While knives are an entirely different story (you never know if your kid will develop an evil streak, run ahead and use their newly acquired knife to shape dry sticks, dig a pit and setup a punji trap in retaliation for not letting them go skating on Friday night), it will never be a 'perfect' sport/hobby/game.

[PM_Thumper]

... and since I closed the other thread, let me put in my two-cents-worth here. PLEASE understand that I'm STILL not complaining about the rule:

 

As I understand it, the rationale for banning knives has to do with (1) the fact that they violate the rules of some public lands where caches are placed and (2) safety concerns, especially where children are likely to find the knives.

 

It seems to me that both these are valid reasons for prohibiting the placement of knives in caches. Still, I wonder if a blanket prohibition may not be overkill.

 

Think about National Forests: During hunting season, a person could carry a cache, a pocket knife, and a very powerful gun to a hollow tree, place the cache inside, but be in violation of the guidelines by putting the knife in the cache. Then, of course, he/she could carry the gun right back to the car (in front of G-d and everybody) and be perfectly within the legally recognized use of National Forest land. Why ban knives under the first rationale on public lands where almost everyone routinely carries knives, and where doing so is perfectly acceptable?

 

Besides which, a city park may technically have a rule against "weapons" but it takes a tremendous stretch of the imagination to think of a pocket knife as a weapon. I like knives as collectors items, but the "knife" I carry for actual use is a Gerber Eclipse multi-tool. Its actual cutting blade is probably not more than an inch long. I wouldn't let a three-year-old play with it, but I'd be just as worried that he/she would swallow it as cut him/herself with it! I think it'd be a very cool thing to put in a cache, and it's hard for me to imagine a child who's old enough to go caching alone being hurt with it. I think it's important to make a distinction between a knife that is designed as a weapon and one that is clearly designed as a tool.

[+Rev. Jim]

Consider the position of a landowner allowing someone to place a cache on his land, and there is a knife in the cache. Neighbor children find it while playing in the woods and someone gets cut.

 

Enter the lawyers; the landowner is now no longer a landowner nor owner of anything else.

[+bons]

Consider the position of a landowner allowing someone to place a cache on his land, and there is a knife in the cache. Neighbor children find it while playing in the woods and someone gets cut.

 

Enter the lawyers; the landowner is now no longer a landowner nor owner of anything else.

I can't express how much I'm disgusted that people have such a fear of lawyers that they cower in such a manner. It used to take a police state and beatings to make people live in such fear.

 

If your local area has court systems and juries that award people for raising children that tresspass, steal, and then blame others for their stupidity then I suggest you move elsewhere.

[+Criminal]

Consider the position of a landowner allowing someone to place a cache on his land, and there is a knife in the cache. Neighbor children find it while playing in the woods and someone gets cut.

 

Enter the lawyers; the landowner is now no longer a landowner nor owner of anything else.

Consider this scenario:

 

·Man finds ammo can geocache while wearing loose shorts

·Man inadvertently closes ammo can and scrotum gets clamped in the lid

·Man sues the US government for negligently selling dangerous containers

·US government stops selling ammo cans through DRMO and buys back all the ones at the surplus stores

 

Now all our caches are contraband!

[PM_Thumper]

Criminal, that's gotta be the funniest dang thang I ever heard!

[+OKThumper]

Read the whole darn thread.........boy what a bunch of crud (just saved the ole warn meter).

 

I just went out, couple of days ago, and scored some pretty nice little knives with caching in mind. Wished I had read this thread first, I now totally agree that they SHOULD NOT be used in caches. Rules no rules, guidlines or no guildlines, I dont care, common sense is the issue here. I cannot return the knives, so I will have spares for years, why sharpen them, just toss it and get a new one out, hey I just saved myself some time, cool. I also got some nice screwdrivers (six tips) and some little shears that would be great to have in your geokit, I am a little concerned about the shears but I think they will be alright. I am new to the sport and really would not like to be known as the person that killed geocaching in the state of Oklahoma because I thought that I needed to put an object into a cache that would cause harm, regardless of anothers abilities to use or teach the use of said object.

 

Sorry just puttin in my one cents worht, I'm retired and on a fixed income so I can't afford two cents worth.

 

Thumper

[+sbell111]

Of course, had you read the guidelines prior to making your purchase, you would have known that they were not allowed.

[+briansnat]

I also got some nice screwdrivers (six tips) and some little shears that would be great to have in your geokit, I am a little concerned about the shears but I think they will be alright.

 

People have been known to sharpen screwdrivers and use them as weapons and screwdrivers have even been used to kill people (I think Trotsky got one in his ear). Go ahead and place your kinves. Finders will love them. I'll let you in on a little secret. A lot of people still put pocket knives in caches (many geocachers aren't aware that there are guidelines) and a lot of people still like finding them.

Edited March 2, 2004 by briansnat

[+sbell111]

Let's see...

 

I do something that some disagree with and others agree with, but there is no guideline one way or the other. No problem.

 

I do something that some disagree with. There is a guideline forbidding it, but I wasn't aware of the guideline until after I did it. Oops. I was wrong. I'm sorry...

 

I do something that some disagree with. There is a guideline forbidding it, I am aware of the guideline and this knowledge is on the record. I am wrong and should expect appropriate 'punishment'.

 

I do something that some disagree with. There is a guideline forbidding it, I am aware of the guideline and this knowledge is on the record. I am also on the record stating that I intend to disobey the guideline. I am wrong and should expect appropriate 'punishment'. Since the knowledge of my intent would tend to increase Groundspeak's liability, I would imagine that this punishment would be severe.

[+OKThumper]

OK....you guys made me do it........this is crap (sorry warn meter). Why not just put hand granades or tnt or some other thing that is NOT spefically stated as an item not to be put in caches in one an "feel good" that you did something not specfically in the rules/guidlines.

 

Gee whiz......grow up....get a life........and all the other stuff that goes with it.

 

Once again I have wasted my time on those with little or no common sense.

 

Thumper

[+Criminal]

OK....you guys made me do it........this is crap (sorry warn meter). Why not just put hand granades or tnt or some other thing that is NOT spefically stated as an item not to be put in caches in one an "feel good" that you did something not specfically in the rules/guidlines.

 

Gee whiz......grow up....get a life........and all the other stuff that goes with it.

 

Once again I have wasted my time on those with little or no common sense. 

 

Hyperbole is a poor choice for constructive debate. Are you equating a pocket knife with an explosive? That manner of brilliance is often unappreciated by those of us who actually reason.

 

Speaking only for myself, I have grown up as much as I intend to, and I have more life than I can handle on some days.

 

You have wasted your time; however, the common sense is not on your side. This topic pops up on a monthly basis. The sides fall into two camps, those who will not because the guidelines say they shouldn’t, and those who will use common sense and place the offensive pocketknife in caches where it is appropriate.

 

Those with common sense will listen to not only what is being said, but what is not being said. To date, nobody in Seattle has entered the debate.

 

Nuff said….

[+The Leprechauns]

Besides which, a city park may technically have a rule against "weapons" but it takes a tremendous stretch of the imagination to think of a pocket knife as a weapon.

 

Well, the county park system in Licking County, Ohio has done exactly that. A park employee found a cache that had a pen knife in it. Not a buck knife, not a switchblade, but a little pen knife like what you hang on a keychain. The park system then banned geocaching in all of its parks because "weapons are not allowed in the parks."

 

It is real life examples like this one that led to the "no knives in caches" rule. I don't think Jeremy sits around dreaming up new rules just for fun. But when he gets complaints from land managers over and over again on the same themes (buried caches being another example), the list of rules grows and grows over time.

[+xenophon10k]

Well, the county park system in Licking County, Ohio has done exactly that.  A park employee found a cache that had a pen knife in it.  Not a buck knife, not a switchblade, but a little pen knife like what you hang on a keychain.  The park system then banned geocaching in all of its parks because "weapons are not allowed in the parks."

That's a good point, and a major reason why I remove any knife that I find in caches - pocketknives included. The rule exists for a reason, and it's better to err on the side of caution so we don't piss off any more land managers than we already have.

[+Criminal]

I think the rule is there to cater to the lowest moronic denominator. Some don't seem to have enough common sense to continue to be alive. Grace is an amazing thing isn't it?

 

I will continue to place pocketknives in caches. Seattle knows where I live, control of my account, and a few even have my cell number.

[+GeoBlank]

I have been collecting pocket knives for 30 years, it started when I started recieving them for Christmas from my great grandfathers collection.

 

I love finding knives in caches because the become traded items... right into my collection.

 

800 + knives and counting...

 

I guess I am doing my part to cleanup the containers out there

[jmabbott888]

We're still very new to geocaching & learning the ropes. I read the guidlines & I was/am of the understanding that they are ONLY guidlines...NOT RULES or REGULATIONS!!!! Also, on every page for finding a cache there is a link to http://www.geocaching.com/disclaimer.asp. In this it says...[/b]Cache seekers assume all risks involved in seeking a cache. Also, when you make the pages print friendly & print them up, on the page it says....You assume all risks involved seeking a cache. By using this printout you agree to the disclaimer posted at http://www.geocaching.com/disclaimer.asp.

 

Plus I am reading so many people have a problem with swiss army knives & yet they aren't saying a word about the bullets left in the caches. Granted they can't be used right then, but who's to say a child isn't going to take that bullet home & put it in an empty gun that their dad left sitting ontop of the dresser unloaded for safety??? Or the chalk sticks that a child can "inhale" the dust off of, or the bouncy balls that can bounce & hit them in their eye, or the jacks that can poke them in the eye, or the change that can be swallowed.

 

In my opinion (not that it's worth much), the parents need to teach their children what is expected of them in this issue just like they do w/teaching them how they expect them to behave. Also it comes down to common sense. We keep anything our children get from the caches until we get home. At that point the parents can say give or not give the items to the children to use at their own freewill.

Edited March 7, 2004 by jmabbott888

[+bons]

the bullets left in the caches.

[+Renegade Knight]

We work with prisoners. They are minimum securty low risk types. They could find a knife in a cache. However they are also allowed to work with equipment and tools that could do far more damage. Thinks like heavy equipment, snow blowers, chain saws etc.

 

The problem isn't knives in caches. The problem is that someone official who doesn't realize the process these prisoners go through to be out picking up litter prior to their release go through. The official has an issue not the prisoners. If they were hell bent on using something to cause harm you would probably be impressed at what they could do with a beat up old hubcap, a screwdriver, or any of the other kinds of commonly found debris. Hell getting wacked over the head with an ammo can (ignoring the rocks it was hidden near) wouldn't be on my list of favorits.

 

The ban on knives should be specific to the park making the request, or in areas where kids can not legally possess them. If we accumulate rules for all parks that are all implemented world wide we will have a tangle of rules that are worthless for 99% of anyone anywhere and that will do more to kill geocaching than de-facto bans by land managers.

[+Renegade Knight]

...The park system then banned geocaching in all of its parks because "weapons are not allowed in the parks."...

Too bad they didn't find it in their park office. They would of had to ban the park.

[jmabbott888]

Renegade--I agree. I don't personnally work in the prison system but know people that do & have heard horrible stories about what can & does get used as a weapon.

[+sbell111]

As much as I really would like to see this thread croak, who leaves bullets in caches? I've found many caches, in many areas, and have never come across a live bullet in a cache.

[jmabbott888]

sbell--I'm not sure who it was nor do I really care & I wasn't trying to stir up more trouble...I was just trying to make a point...that just about anything can be considered "dangerous" in 1 way or another

[uperdooper]

As much as I really would like to see this thread croak, who leaves bullets in caches? I've found many caches, in many areas, and have never come across a live bullet in a cache.

neither have i. for the bullet to work in a gun, the child would have to put it in a gun that is the same caliber as the bullet. a 22 cal. bullet will not work in a 357 cal. gun. even then it wouldn't be the cachers fault. it would be the fault of the father who left the gun out unloaded or not. i have 3 handguns. i don't have children, even so, my guns are locked in a gun safe at all times unless i am carrying one or at the range. my husband doesn't even have the combo. to it. like it or not the frog has spoken. no knives.

[+sbell111]

Of course, bullets are also specifically forbidden per the guidelines.

 

What I don't understand is why people have a problem with this sort of thing. It's not like there are so few items that are allowable.

[+Harrald]

I’m confused why this is such a huge issue. It’s been said before and I’ll say it again. By stating in their guidelines that knives are not allowed in caches listed on GC.com they are simply allowing themselves a bit of litigious protection. Whether it works or not is not my concern. Why is this such a bone of contention to some people?

 

On the bullet issue. That’s a bit over the top for me. Spent brass is one thing but live ammo is a bad idea. Some dope will try to make a zip gun and shoot himself in the foot. Or worse shoot someone else’s foot.

[+Lone Duck]

Other than the "cool factor" and given that something nice can be had for so cheap, I can't see why people keep complaining about the no knives rule for geocaching. There's plenty of other objects out there to use for trades, so why get all hung up about the few items that aren't allowed?

[+JeepCachr]

WARNING NEWBIE ALERT FIRST POST

 

Isn't it great that we live in a free country? A country that allows a few people to spoil it for everybody else? All it would take is for a couple incidents to happen with questioniable items and one state to shut down geocaching entirely, Other states would follow because a precedent would be set.

 

On another note it doesn't take a gun to make a bullet go off. In junior high I had a friend that use to hit 22 shells with a hammer. Some might say Darwinism at work but I see a lawsuit waiting to happen.

[CoyoteRed]

Hey, let's not forget that some groups want geocaching banned on "their" land because it amounts to organized litter.

 

People don't need an excuse to ban geocaching.

[Keystone]

As much as I really would like to see this thread croak, who leaves bullets in caches? I've found many caches, in many areas, and have never come across a live bullet in a cache.

As a regular geocacher, I've found bullets in two caches. One of them was a cache set up by a Scout Troop at a Boy Scout camp; the .22 caliber bullet was left by a later non-scout visitor to the cache. I removed it! Thinking back to when I was 11 years old, it would not be out of the question for a scout to have found the cache, removed the bullet and put it in his group's campfire to see what would happen.

 

Coincidentally, both caches were within 20 miles of the park where the dreaded pen knife was found, leading to a ban on caches in that park.

 

As a cache reviewer, I quickly archived a cache named "Bullet Box" which was advertised as being chock full of firecrackers, M80's and other "goodies." Yeesh.

 

So yes, it does happen.

[+bons]

Keystone (or anyone else that's been around the block for a lot longer than I have).

 

I realize the rules about knives have helped smooth things over with land managers but in your opinion has it actually done much about what you find in caches or just how they're listed.

 

The main reason I ask this is that a few things come to mind.

1) The majority of the geocaching community doesn't even seem to lurk at this forum, nevermind post here, and of those who do, there seems to be a strong vocal group who are willing to place knives in caches when they feel it's appropriate.

2) There are a lot of people who seem to place caches without reading the guidelines and I suspect there's a lot more who trade at caches without ever having read the guidelines.

3) I've found one knife (which I thought was placed appropriately and my wife keeps on her keychain), pulled out fireworks (old) from another cache and have had candy (halloween) pulled out of mine (for which I'm grateful). So this type of stuff is obviously still occurring despite the guidelines.

[+Jacksons]

I really get up tight when land managers or park managers begin to think that they own the park or land,they forget that they are public lands owned by the public and that they work for us the people

Edited March 9, 2004 by Jacksons

[+robert]

I really get up tight when land managers or park managers begin to think that they own the park or land,they forget that they are public lands owned by the public and that they work for us the people

Good point, HOWEVER as the person(s) ultimately responsible for the maintenance and care of those lands, their rules need to be adhered to. Just like they can prohibit you from placing caches, they can prohibit certain types of items in the caches.

 

I'm not advocating either side, just pointing out an alternative to what you've suggested.

[+yumitori]

I really get up tight when land managers or park managers begin to think that they own the park or land,they forget that they are public lands owned by the public and that they work for us the people

But taking the attitude 'You work for me, park boy!!' is not likely to gain you sympathetic ear when it comes time to discuss geocaching in local recreation areas.

 

Ignoring park rules, calling managers morons, and similar actions are not going to endear us to the people with the power to shut down our fun. I still have a pocket knife in my box of geocaching goodies, but it's not going into any containers any time soon. We need to work with these folks, not butt heads with them. Given the choice between geocaching without knives and no geocaching at all, the decision is obvious.

Edited March 10, 2004 by yumitori

[+Jacksons]

I really get up tight when land managers or park managers begin to think that they own the park or land,they forget that they are public lands owned by the public and that they work for us the people

But taking the attitude 'You work for me, park boy!!' is not likely to gain you sympathetic ear when it comes time to discuss geocaching in local recreation areas.

 

Ignoring park rules, calling managers morons, and similar actions are not going to endear us to the people with the power to shut down our fun. I still have a pocket knife in my box of geocaching goodies, but it's not going into any containers any time soon. We need to work with these folks, not butt heads with them. Given the choice between geocaching without knives and no geocaching at all, the decision is obvious.

Understand I wouldnt go as far as that(even if I did think so) I will adhere to the rules as long as they ar reasonable.Not allowing caches but allowing fishermen to litter and tear up the park,go off trail,and leave all kind of litter behind does not make sense. Rember is is somtimes better to ask forgivness than permission

[+Renegade Knight]

As much as I really would like to see this thread croak, who leaves bullets in caches?  I've found many caches, in many areas, and have never come across a live bullet in a cache.

I have. .223, .22, 9mm. .45, .270, 30-06, 12ga and so forth.

 

As a kid I had a friend who smashed a .22 with a rock. My theory was that if I jumped when he was bringing the rock down it would miss me. It went off and we never did find where it went.

 

In some recent training at a police range I dropped a 9mm round in the dirt. As I went to retrieve it the officer said "just leave it' and as I looked around I was amazed at how much live ammo was actually on the ground being walked on.

 

The reason for not leaving live ammo isn't the risk of explosion from it being loose. It's the slight risk of fire and that's about it. A zip gun is not likley to happen from the contects of a typical cache.

Edited March 10, 2004 by Renegade Knight

[+eddthejailer]

i have been caching for a little over 5 monthy now and i have found 3 bullets in 3 different caches.i new they were not allowed but didnt think about removing them...geesh wish i remembered wich three yes it does happen around here

 

edited to add this all three were .40 caliber hollow points!!!

Edited March 10, 2004 by eddthejailer

[+ironman114]

i have been caching for a little over 5 monthy now and i have found 3 bullets in 3 different caches.i new they were not allowed but didnt think about removing them...geesh wish i remembered wich three yes it does happen around here

 

edited to add this all three were .40 caliber hollow points!!!

you should have checked to see if your name was on them.

[phern47]

I would love to find a nice pocket knife in a cache. I always have a pocket knife in my pocket when I'm in the woods and on my key chain etc but there's always room for another or a better one. I won't note it in the items taken in my trade.

Where I live, there are no cities, towns or villages north of me. All wilderness right up to the north pole. Ok, a person may find a hunting camp within the first 100 miles but after that, it is close to hopeless. Every year people get lost in myh area. Many have died. Some barely survived and others did ok. Something very important (actually the most important) to have when in the bush is matches, lighter or something to make a fire. One of the first things search teams ask when someone is lost in the woods is "does the person smoke?". If the person is a smoker, they most certainly have something to light a fire. You can go a long time without water, and even a very much longer time without food but without a fire, it's hard to survive more than 24 hours unless it's very warm. Now, with matches and a knife, you can make yourself quite comfortable. So if anyone left something to start a fire or a pocket knife in a cache, I won't gripe about it. I won't mention it though. Since I quit smoking, I sometimes forget to bring matches with me. I always have matches and a lighter in my hunting and fishing gear but for a stroll in the bush or out berry picking, I forget.

[phern47]

Well, the county park system in Licking County, Ohio has done exactly that. A park employee found a cache that had a pen knife in it. Not a buck knife, not a switchblade, but a little pen knife like what you hang on a keychain. The park system then banned geocaching in all of its parks because "weapons are not allowed in the parks."

 

With a place called "Licking County", it's easy to imagine the possibilitly of some wierd rules.

[+yumitori]

With a place called "Licking County", it's easy to imagine the possibilitly of some wierd rules.

 

Licking County actually has some wonderful parks. It's a real shame the land managers took things to the extreme.

 

But in that they aren't alone. Here's the law regarding knives in New South Wales. Check too the link for what consitutes a 'knife' under their laws.

[+Jacksons]

With a place called "Licking County", it's easy to imagine the possibilitly of some wierd rules.

 

Licking County actually has some wonderful parks. It's a real shame the land managers took things to the extreme.

 

But in that they aren't alone. Here's the law regarding knives in New South Wales. Check too the link for what consitutes a 'knife' under their laws.

But I dont live in new south whales and I really dont care what there laws are,they dont not affect me in any way

[bubish]

I'm new to the forum, and geocaching in general, but I have a great idea. Rather than breaking rules some deem as pointless or stupid, why not petition the people creating these rules to get repeal them. So, instead of risk having geocaching banned in areas by leaving pocket knives in an act of rebellion, lets start contacting the people in charge about it. Maybe we can get things changed for the better.

 

It seems like a pretty simple solution to me, but hey - I'm new to this.

[+utahrc]

No, not that simple. Lots of different individuals and organizations involved in the management of the land where geocaches may be placed. There's no practical way to get everyone to agree to knives, so GC.com will continue to have a blanket prohibition against them.