Racism

1k · February 10, 2004

What are the rules on Racism in Geocaching.....because having read the clue on this cache....

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...&decrypt=y&log=

I couldnt help but laugh but feel shocked at the same time..Should this kind of thing really be allowed? Arent we kind of in the day and age where sayings like this just arent said anymore...

Pid :lol:

February 10, 2004

It violates the rules of common sense. He's going to wish he never put that phrase in there. Even if it wasn't offensive to many, the term has no meaning worth anything in modern times. Someone should email him before the doot hits the fan. :blink:

February 10, 2004

Hey people, I think you might find that the phrase comes from an 1860's propoganda image from the American civil war and is actually an anti-racist statement; or have I got the wrong stick (excuse the pun).

Have a look at this:

http://www.boondocksnet.com/gallery/cartoons/cw/cw021.html

February 10, 2004

I was always told that a 'nigger' was a romany name for a hedghog - the hibernating version of which caused problems when trying to get firewood without disturbing it. Normally, a hedghog would have been eaten but during the winter, their body composition becomes more fatty and less palatable.

Maybe my father was winding me up but I still have fond memories of this phrase.

Andy

February 10, 2004

According to the Oxford English Dictionary, there are a host of offensive and derogative meanings to the word 'nigger', but also the following:

nigger, a. n.

8. Brit. regional. a. The black caterpillar of the turnip sawfly, Athalia rosae. Now rare.

b. The blackish larva of a ladybird. Now rare.

c. A black or blackish sea cucumber, Holothuria forskali, common off rocky shores on the west coast of Britain and Ireland. Now rare.

9. U.S. a. A steam-driven capstan used on some riverboats; a steam engine used to drive such a capstan (also more fully nigger engine). Now rare.

b. A device used to hold and turn logs in a sawmill.

10. U.S. A fault, a defect. Obs. rare.

In quot. used of a flaw in the insulating covering of an electrical conductor.

11. A dark brown colour. Cf. sense C. 3. Now rare (offensive).

12. Austral. The luderick (fish), Girella tricuspidata.

13. Cinematogr. and Television. A screen or mask used to deflect or conceal unwanted light, to cast shadows, etc.

However, there is also the following:

III. Phrases. Now offensive.

15. a. U.S. nigger in the fence = nigger in the woodpile, sense 15b. Now rare.

b. orig. U.S. nigger in the woodpile and variants [see etymological note]: a concealed motive or unknown factor affecting a situation in an adverse way.

And under

nigger, v.

U.S. colloq. Now rare (offensive).

1. a. trans. To section off (a log, etc.) by burning or charring at intervals. Also with off. Now hist.

b. trans. With out. To exhaust (land) by overfarming (see quots.). Obs.

2. intr. To behave or live supposedly in the manner of a black slave; (in later use esp.) to work very hard, do menial work. Also trans. with it.

3. trans. To alter (one's voice, appearance, etc.) so as to resemble that of a black person. Also with up. (In quot. 1881 used refl.) See also NIGGERING n. rare.

-----

Etymological note:

The phrase nigger in the woodpile (see sense 15b) is said to derive from an incident in the U.S. in the time before the American Civil War when a group of escaped slaves who had been conveyed along the Underground Railroad to Pultneyville, New York State, with a view to crossing Lake Ontario into Canada were enabled to make the final stage from a warehouse in which they were hidden to a boat by means of woodpiles set up across the wharf through which a concealed passage had been constructed (see further N.Y. Folklore Q. (1958) 14 16-25).]

-----

So while there are lots of meanings for the word 'nigger', my conclusion would be that a) it's probaby not a nice word to use in a friendly environment such as Geocaching and that 'nigger in the woodpile' is listed under offensive phrases by the OED, so probably shouldn't be used.

IMHO it ought to be changed, but then I guess it depends on the cache itself - 'nigger in the woodpile' might refer to something relevant. i.e. it might be written on a plaque above where the cache is hidden for example - after all, it is the name of that cartoon....

Hmm, i dunno. I just wanted to show off my OED skills :blink:

Edited February 10, 2004 by Huga

1.7k · February 10, 2004

Should this kind of thing really be allowed? Arent we kind of in the day and age where sayings like this just arent said anymore...

Pid

Yes it should be allowed. We should not allow our language to be manipulated by politically correct Americans.

It is interesting that one of the dictionary entries that I looked up contained this "only a black man can call a black man a nigger". Kind of double standards there.

I wouldn't use the term in the US but as far as the UK is concerned it's quite acceptable.

And as eveyone knows, I'm known for calling a spade, a spade. :bad: :mad:

3.8k · February 10, 2004

I have to side with Alex on this one. “Political Correctness” is a funny ol’ thing. It’s almost indefinable as politics change with time. What was politically acceptable 50 years ago is apparently unacceptable now. I seem to recollect that Sir Douglas Bader had a black retriever called ‘Nigger’ but who would have the balls to stand in the park calling ‘Here, Nigger’ now?

Every race has its derogatory term. Is it really any worse calling a Negro a ‘Nigger’ than to call and Irishman a ‘Mick’, a Scotsman ‘Jock’, a Welshman ‘Sheep sh… errr… Taffy’, an Englishman 'Limey' or an American ‘Late’

See… I’m for racial equality; I can upset everyone with equal ease :blink:

<EDIT>... Sorry, wrong pilot. It was Wing Commander Guy Gibson V.C. (of Dam Busters fame) that had a dog called "Nigger" </EDIT>

Edited February 10, 2004 by Pharisee

3.1k · February 10, 2004

I have British friends who have learned that in America the use of the word fag doesn't mean they want a cigarette, they learn to ask for a cigarette.

This cache is located in the UK so perhaps that's acceptable there. But the N word is never acceptable over here.

We don't have to be politicaly correct Americans to understand that certain words don't need to be used on an AMERICAN forum :blink:

Used on a UK cache page? Who cares.

4k · February 10, 2004

Should this kind of thing really be allowed? Arent we kind of in the day and age where sayings like this just arent said anymore...

Pid

Yes it should be allowed. We should not allow our language to be manipulated by politically correct Americans.

It is interesting that one of the dictionary entries that I looked up contained this "only a black man can call a black man a nigger". Kind of double standards there.

I wouldn't use the term in the US but as far as the UK is concerned it's quite acceptable.

And as eveyone knows, I'm known for calling a spade, a spade.

Much as I hate the "N" word, I have to agree. Different cultures see things different ways. In many countries and cultures, the "N" word is perfectly acceptible. Much the same as words from other countries that aren't considered acceptible to them are acceptible in the US.

It's not an easy thing to police the entire world to our standards, and by no means the right thing to try to do. I'm just curious what TPTB think of it, since this website is based in the US. I'd rather not see the word in a cache description, but I'm not likely to head over to the UK anytime soon, so it's not an issue with me. I'm also not going to force my views on other cultures, much the same as I hope they don't try to force theirs on me.

24.7k · February 10, 2004

...Used on a UK cache page? Who cares.

Good point on the British.

Over time I've found some phrases don't have a counterpart that can be interchanged and mean the same thing.

When I garage sale I've pretty much replaced the phrase 'Jew em down' with dicker. However 'African American Fishing' denoting a specific style of bank fishing doesn't seem to say "lets grab the ice chest and hang out all day on the river fishing and doing a lot of nothing"

Sometimes a phrase isn't nasty or evil even if one of the words contained therein are now considered a problem. In other words let sleeping dogs lie. If it isn't blatantly racist don't muck with it and make it so that it is. Half the race problem in this country is a bunch of BS created out of nothing. The other half doesn't get the attention it deserves because of the distractions to the real issue caused by the first half.

24.7k · February 10, 2004

While I'm on the soap box.

When I first dealt with people who were alcoholics I was annoyed that I had to change my behavior to deal with their problem. It's not my problem after all. Over time I came to understand that the real issue isn't so much my right to drink in front of them as it is respect for them and recognizing that I'd like to help them if by no other means than removing a temptation.

What does this have to do with the word Nigger?

Simple. As a member of the 'white' race (at least that’s were my mixed blood and modern society place me) and not being 'allowed' to us the word. I sure am uncomfortable having to hear it bandied about like a badge of honor like when we as Americans starting singing Yankee Doodle having stolen the song from the British who were taunting us with it. In short, out of respect blacks shouldn't use it either. It should be buried and laid to rest.

4k · February 10, 2004

In short, out of respect blacks shouldn't use it either. It should be buried and laid to rest.

Ditto. Let's move on to more serious problems......

.....like why my lame virt wasn't approved.....

2.2k · February 10, 2004

Is this clue directly relevant to the finding of the cache? If so then perhaps it should stay. However I can't think of anyone I know who would use this expression. People take offence at this kind of expression even if it is not meant in a racist way. It's not about political correctness it is about respect.

Edited February 10, 2004 by mongoose39uk

3.1k · February 10, 2004

It's not about political correctness it is about respect.

Exactly right. I know if I used a local term on one of my cache pages that offended people like the N word does I'd remove it.

But it's on a UK page and I'm sure the meaning of it there is different and probably won't offend anyone.

1.7k · February 10, 2004

Having been away for a couple of days I've only just seen this thread. I agree with the consensus that this has been, for a long time, a perfectly acceptable British colloqualism. People have rightly made the point that different parts of the "English" speaking world have VERY different meanings for a single word.

Also what is acceptable on one side of the Atlantic is not acceptable on the other. I remember being surprised the first time I heard what Americans call a "Bum Bag".

No, in my book the clue stays.

February 10, 2004

But it's on a UK page and I'm sure the meaning of it there is different and probably won't offend anyone.

Nah, it pretty much means the same over here, at least in it's common usage, just that us Brits are good at finding excuses by precedent. Perhaps it's the enduring "school-boy" bad behaviour that we're so fond of here.

Not necessarily a nice word, but methinks this is all being taken out of context. It's a clue that probably relates to some ancient plaque on an ancient wall that never bothered anyone. I stand to be corrected as I've not done the cache, but I guess it's along those lines.

As was mentioned before by Renegade Knight:

"Half the race problem in this country is a bunch of BS created out of nothing."

Go figure. :blink:

Edited February 10, 2004 by Omally

21.9k · February 10, 2004

In the US I would remove this clue in a heartbeat if the cache came up in my review queue, or if it were added later and a complaint were to be lodged with me.

But this is the UK and I will defer to my esteemed colleague Lactodorum. Ain't it grand to have a locally based volunteer?

3.1k · February 10, 2004

But it's on a UK page and I'm sure the meaning of it there is different and probably won't offend anyone.

Nah, it pretty much means the same over here, at least in it's common usage, just that us Brits are good at finding excuses by precedent.

Well in this case I would think the cache page should be changed. A simple request to the owner would probably take care of things. If it's still a racial insult there it needs to go in my opinion.

1.3k · February 10, 2004

unsure on this... from my understanding, the word in question means sub-human, rather than black... sadly it has been hijacked as with a lot of old english words (remember record shops getting in trouble for putting up posters for the Sex Pistols' album back in 77?)

We should in many ways reclaim the original usage of these words. I visited a site today where any forums mentioning the word gay are removed. Censorship is not the answer. I don't have to be politically correct as I'm not a politician, but at the same time I wouldn't want to cause any offence.

February 10, 2004

Growing up in California, I learned the phrase as "rat in the woodpile"...but then I also learned to "catch a tiger by the toe/ if he hollers, let him go..." These phrases die out or change, if we let them. Then they get bleached of their original offensiveness...I can use "swive" in almost any company now.

I would point out that not everyone feels that the offensiveness is confined to one side of the Atlantic: Nursing leader quits after race remark

It's none of my beeswax, since I'm neither British nor black, not the setter nor a likely hunter of the cache, and not an approver, but unless there's some compelling reason to keep it (like it being a direct quote from a plaque), maybe it wouldn't be the end of the world if it were changed?

1.2k · February 10, 2004

There is a lot of caches that have bad words written all over it, depending on which local slang you know about :mad:

If you gave me five minutes and a list of the entire database of GC caches, then should I be able to find at least a couple of caches with some bad words that means something different in a totally different language.

We have had this discussion on one of the other boards here on GC just a couple of months ago (and yes, I got 10% warning for writing a word that is considered to be obscene in the US but not in Sweden - a word I learned while I lived in England and everybody was saying all the time: My F*CKING dog was F*CKING taking a SH*T on my F*CKING bed." You got it?

We can't take responsibility that every single word on a cache page can't be understood in an offensive way for someone else, in the same or an another language. There is also a lot of different accent or dialects within the same language, where the words can have different meaning.

I can't see why a person gets upset by a single word in the encrypted field of a cache page, when it might have a reason for being there. I don't know anything about this cache except that I just looked at its page. But why, why, why make this such a big problem? Why don't mail the cache owner and ask "Hi, I saw that you used the word nigger on your cache, is there a reason for it?"...??

If everybody should do like you, get upset and yell everytime they see something wrong - how would it sound like when teachers found all the misspelling we, that doesn't have English as our native language, are doing all the time? :blink:

How should fanatic religous people react when they realize that a lot of caches are hidden at churches, graveyards, memorial places and so on???

I think that some people (read: geocachers) forget an important simple thing from time to time:

IT'S JUST A GAME!!!!!

February 10, 2004

Only racist if it was meant in a racist manner.. what is racisim anyway?? it is a mental atitude of a bigoted few.

I can't use a blackboard at work I have to use a wipe board.. but I can use Blackboard as a computer program!!!!!!

And what happened to nigger brown shoes???

The only ones who are racist are those that see it as a racist remark.. all the rest are looking for a box of some sort!!! :blink:

Can I take it that the frog Icons are an insult to one of my spiritual totems and as such racist..!!!

Edited February 10, 2004 by Moss Trooper

February 10, 2004

Surely the final arbitrator in the argument is the person described by the "potentially" offensive term. And under that criteria, the test is simply asking: "Would the majority of people of color find this an offensive term?"

I believe they would. I do.

It's a spirious argument to say that political correctness is changing our language: language is dynamic and words and phrases go in and out of useage constantly... otherwise we'd all understand Chaucer without the help of Coles Notes.

The clue's offensive right now in 2004: forget what Enid Blighton or Agatha Christie may have written.

1.2k · February 11, 2004

The clue's offensive right now in 2004: forget what Enid Blighton or Agatha Christie may have written.

We can't change the history - we can only change the future!

With this will I say; we can't go to the library and ask them to remove all words that are offensive nowadays, from old books.

But we can instead try to avoid using that kind of words in all brand NEW books.

Except the one that is about historic things.

If the words "X" was a common word without an offensive meaning 100 years ago, but now people might get upset by it, shall we erase that word from the language?

How shall we then do with all books, shall we when a new edition comes out of the market take away the word "X" and instead use "Y". It might look better, but will that really be right? Is it okay to change the history, despit how horrible it was?

There has been a discussion this autumn in Sweden, the reason is a very popular kind of chocolate ball that is called "nigger ball". The most people use that name because it has been used for a very looooong time. Now a woman got upset and went to the police and filed (right word?) a complaint about this, and a prosecutor started working on this matter.

The politically correct people calls the ball "chocolate ball", but for the most people can that be any kind of round chocolate thing. A "nigger ball" is a special kind of ball that everybody knows the kind of, both the taste and the look.

According to the Swedish Dictionary CAN the name be offensive, it is in that book yes.

Now after a couple of months has the prosecutors and police dropped the charges.

And the people here in Sweden are thinking: What about all the rest of things that are named after people, folk, country or parts of the world?

There is in Sweden a disease known as "The English Disease", how do you feel about that in England? :lol:

Pimples that occur the most young people are known here as "Finns", just like people from neigbour country Finland is called.

There has also been a lot of discussion about signs like the svastika (I think it is spelled like that): You know the sign the nazis used, a cross with bended corners...

That sign was from the beginning nothing offensive, it was a sign for sun, and it came from India - if I remember right. You can find these signs on old things all over the world, for example here in Göteborg on our old trams ("cable-cars") on the street. On the wheels are this sign as a company logo for ASEA that nowadays are ABB (Asea Brown Bovery). This doesn't mean that this company like racism, the just used a sign pre WWI and WWII that had a good meaning and it was about how powerful the sun was and so on...

Nowadays are it not okay for a company to use that kind of logotype, but shall they for example locate every single product they made in the beginning of 20th century and replace the sign for a new one? Isn't that faking history, or is it the way to go?

1.7k · February 11, 2004

I just wanted to thank everybody who has contributed to this discussion for expressing their varied views in a mature and restrained manner

It just goes to show how such matters OUGHT to be debated.

Good on yer!!

:lol:

1.2k · February 11, 2004

Lactodorum, you are not like some of the other mods on these forums... Keep up the good work.

3.8k · February 11, 2004

Lactodorum, you are not like some of the other mods on these forums...

Yep some of the others are GOOD :lol: (only kidding )

1.2k · February 11, 2004

Yep some of the others are GOOD (only kidding )

And you assume that your new caches will be approved after this reply?

3.8k · February 11, 2004

OOPS :lol:

1k · February 11, 2004

Yep some of the others are GOOD

.......modesty forbids......... :lol: :lol:

3.1k · February 11, 2004

Only racist if it was meant in a racist manner...

Naw, where I live Nigger is racist every single time.

1.7k · February 11, 2004

This thread has now become redundant as the owner has changed the cache page. Thanks to him/her for removing any possible offence, however innocently caused, from the original wording. :lol:

February 12, 2004

the owner has changed the cache page.

I've read all the posts. They're quite interesting, I enjoy this language stuff, but I knew what would happen. I'm glad this didn't get into the general forum. There are many who couldn't care less about differences in usage. Btw, your avatar seems much more appropriate now.

1.3k · February 12, 2004

Interesting debate... if such words are used face to face, they can easilly be used in a context that isn't offensive. I have used said word in defence of a black person who was being racially abused by his own collegues (he was a marine)... refering to my above statement that it means "sub-human" told the abusers that it was, in fact, they who were the "niggers." Luckily for me, seconds before I got killed, my friend stepped in and asked them what they would think if their collegue saved their life in combat. The sheer size of him and the fact that he knew what he was talking about, diffused the situation quite quickly!

That said, it's not a word I would choose to use in any unspoken form, especially an electronic one as there is no means of anyone knowing quite what I meant by it, and offence is bound to be caused.

I'm not a PC person, but I do try to not cause offence by using the wrong word at the wrong time.

Edited February 12, 2004 by NattyBooshka

February 12, 2004

On Radio 1, on the Westwood Show, he often gets visitors in to the show. Because of the type of music he plays, a large number of them are "blacks" (if you don't like the word, please substitute your preferred word... whatever word I choose will potentially cause offence).

And it is quite common to hear them talking / singing / rapping, and using the word "nigger" about each other. Never heard Westwood use it (he's white), nor can I remember any other people on R1 using the word.

I think it is us "whites" that get more problems from the word than "blacks" do.

Interestingly enough, in electrical wiring, black has been represented by "N" (= nigger) for many years, to avoid confusion with "blue" which is either "b" or "bl". (and no, I'm NOT meaning MAINS wires, where N=neutral, I mean multicore wires).

1.8k · February 12, 2004

When I was a child mains wires were Red = Live, Black = Neutral, Green = Earth. I would be very surprised if the N = Black for multi wires was not derived from this as Black always equaled N in mains wiring dirgrams 30+ years ago.

These days in most applications, such as ink, where Black and Blue may get confused K is used for black, and I doubt it is short of Klu Klux Klan.

1.2k · February 13, 2004

These days in most applications, such as ink, where Black and Blue may get confused K is used for black, and I doubt it is short of Klu Klux Klan.

(off-topic reply)

A search for the words KKK and PRINTER on google shows 13200 hits, where many of them are "printer friendly pages from KKK". Are you still sure about KKK not controlling the inkjet manufacters? :unsure:

Edit: typo

Edited February 13, 2004 by hedberg

1.4k · February 13, 2004

And it is quite common to hear them talking / singing / rapping, and using the word "nigger" about each other. Never heard Westwood use it (he's white), nor can I remember any other people on R1 using the word.

I think it is us "whites" that get more problems from the word than "blacks" do.

Its quite simple really it is all part of people trying to take control of the language for themselves, recently I have heard a gay man say "well what do you expect from a poof" and a young lady say "not bad for a bird eh?". When they use language like this they start to undermine the ignorant who use these words against them.

I have every sympathy for this "double standard", I have a friend who (like myself) is "no stranger to a fish supper" and a little on the portly side. Its not unusual for us to call each other a "fat bastard", though I am sure both of us would be extremly upset to be addressed in such a way by a complete stranger. If a stranger says the same thing it says that they have formed an opinion of me based on my size/race/sex/sexual orientation before they have even met me and that is ignorant.

Just MHO, I'm off for some pies now :unsure:

Chris

February 13, 2004

It's funny how there are subtle differences in language uses on opposite sides of the pond. A few years ago I was in the US and asked for a coffee. The waitress asked me how I wanted it and I replied "White", she gave me a funny look. My american colleague pointed out that the options were "Black" or "With Milk".

February 21, 2004

Hmmm.... As someone who is both Black and British, I would be offended , but it seems to have been changed on the cache page .

I agree we can all be far too PC these days, but while I accept the many, varied and detailed explanations, remember that racism is not defined by either custom and practice, or intent, but rather by the effect it has on the people referred to. Some words should just not be used.

February 23, 2004

Well I think it should be allowed too its just a word that has many meanings to it, and its up to you what way you want to take it, like someone said 50 years ago the word nigger was ok but now today its not I find that hard to believe, its just a word with many meanings.

Edited February 23, 2004 by Jo1234

24.7k · February 23, 2004

...remember that racism is not defined by either custom and practice, or intent, but rather by the effect it has on the people referred to. Some words should just not be used.

I don't get that at all.

Custom, practice, and intent. What else is there? In the final analysis that's what matters.

2.2k · February 23, 2004

the problem comes from taking racist words etc on their own. regardless of intent and so on, you can call yourself anything you want, you can let people who know you call you anything you want. you can't call people things that they find offensive, or rather you shouldn't. that applies to saying someones a fat bastard just as much as a name like nigger. unintentional insults are bad enough but if you say it to deliberately upset someone then what does that say about yourself?

i do agree we are far too pc these days but what's the happy medium. better to just avoid the stuff likely to upset. don't discuss this just under the banner of racism, it's more to do with manners in general and how we interact with everyone else.

got to stop as i'm starting to sound far too nice and niave. :smile:

Racism

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