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Logging An Missing Cache As Found


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We were looking at caches in another area we are thinking if visiting. We usually read a few of the logs to see what people think of the caches. We came across a few cachers, with high find counts(We know, some say that doesn't matter), that claim "Found" for caches that are missing, but they found the area the cache was in. We once came across a cache that was missing and logged "Unfound". The owner emailed us, asking to describe the area. After we email our description, he said that we were in the right place and we could change our log to "Found". We decided to wait until the cache was replaced, found it, then we log it as "Found". We have never logged a cache as being found when it was missing. We were just wondering how everyone else feels about this? Would you claim a missing cache as found if you were at the right spot (and even if he cache owner said it was ok), or would you rather claim unfound?

 

Mark & Terre

(We did do a search to see if this has been posted before. Didn't find anything, so we hoping we are not bringing up an old subject)

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I always thought the point was to find the cache, not the place where it was, or might have been. I recall one instance where the cache was a jar screwed to a board by its lid. The jar went missing, so people who found the lid logged found its. OK maybe I'd give them that one. Then the lid was gone, so people were logging the screw holes as a find. Gimme a break :D . And it wasn't one person, it was a bunch.

 

They way I look at, you either found the cache, or you didn't. If you didn't, its a DNF.

Edited by briansnat
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I would never log a cache as found unless I actually found it, opened it up, and signed the log. There is a cache hidden on a fishing pier in downtown West Palm Beach. It is disguised as something that naturally would be part of the pier. I have 'found' it three times, but always with guys standing right next to it fishing. So I have never pulled the cache out and signed the log. Even in this case, I have not yet marked this one as found.

 

Logging a find when you don't see the cache assumes you are in the right place. That often may be wrong, if the cache is very well hidden. Logging a find if you cannot handle the cache, sign the log, and put the cache back as found also is not a find, because for some urban caches, using stealth is built in as part of the difficulty factor -- it is not unusual to 'find' urban caches and have to come back another time to really get them and post a find.

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That's a tough call. I had a couple of caches go missing, on of them was secured with velcro. I allowed the finders to log it when they described the position of the velcro, because there was no way they would have missed the cache if it had not been plundered. I don't believe cachers who took the effort to go all the way to the exact location should be denied a find because some muggle took the cache. I had another multi that required driving about 20 miles across town to locate. Some cachers who were just starting at the time took the entire adventure, only to find the location, but no cache. After describing the area to me, I was satisfied that they would have logged it if it had not been missing. A few weeks later, I was caching with one of them in the area. We passed by the location of the now archived cache, and they pointed out exactly where the cache had been. Part of my motivation for allowing a find was to avoid discouraging new cachers who were just getting started. (It was their first cache attempt.) In addition, because it was a multi, they already "found" two caches before they arrived at the final stage.

Finally, I don't believe it's cheating. I think it's entirely up to the individual finder to decide whether to go ahead and log a find if the owner allows it. The cache belongs to the owner, and requirements for finding it come from the owner. If you choose not to log a find, that's your business. If you are worried about cachers having more finds than you because they follow a different set of standards, too bad. Understand that they are playing a different game and you are not in competition with them. Seek out players with similar caching practices and compete with them, but don't be suprised if they don't care if you "win".

There will always be someone with more finds, more money, a bigger house, etc. If you dwell on that, and the way in which they gained their finds, or wealth, life will be a continual disappointment.

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I wouldn't claim it as a find. In the stats competition with myself if I found out that I was cheating I would be furious with myself and probably disqualify myself from the race to "win geocaching!" (first to a million duh... :D )

 

If you pick up all the shredded remains of a cache container after it has come in contact with a brush hog I guess you can count that as a find too... Its really up to you though. There are too many "what ifs" to make a general call.

 

What if you found the log book on your way into the cache but the container was missing? The cache is technically gone and you never found the hiding spot but you could still sign the log.

 

...too many situations to make a general call.

Edited by pnew
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It seems that people dont like to log DNF's because they may be looked at with a slight negative attitude. People dont like admitting their failure. I think if DNF's were viewed as just DID NOT FINDS, it wouldnt be a big deal. If it's there, you FIND IT, if it's not, you DON'T FIND IT. Then, you can go back the next day and find it.

 

I logged a DNF last night, even though I only had less than 5 minutes to look for the cache, because the park was closing. There is no doubt in my mind that I would have found it, but I still DID NOT FIND it.

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Earlier in the week I had one I logged as a DNF from 100+ ft away. I ran into an obstacle and couldn't immediately see how to get over to the cache area and knew I'd be late for work if I tried. I felt as though I'd committed to the find and that "part 1" of my trip to the cache should be recorded. It's all part of the way I choose to play this game. If I'd walked a few hundred feet less, or been only a couple of minutes less on the hunt I might not have felt that the effort was even worth logging at all.

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I've logged several DNFs for caches that were missing, and I knew I had found the spot. Several of the owners encouraged me to log them as finds, but I didn't. If I didn't find the cache, then it isn't a find.

 

There is no shame in DNFs. In fact, in many ways I think they are a better indication of what kind of cacher I am than my finds.

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I only did that once. It was a can underwater hanging by a chain from a dock. I knew it was disabled but I wanted to see it for myself. I found the top only. I suspect the rest was at the bottom of the lake. This was when I was relitively new to the sport and the owner correctly deleted my log.

 

Now I will only log a find if I sign the logbook. If I don't, I log a DNF.

 

I have heard that some people compare the logbook to the web logs and then take some action for any discrepensies. But thats too extreme and time consuming for me.

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It is funny as my perspective changes depending on whether I am the cache owner or seeker.

 

Cache owners have on three or four occasions offered to let me log missing caches as finds. I don't believe I've ever taken them up on the offer. My feeling is that my finds are for completing the deal. On standard caches this requires me to sign the log.

 

However, I have on a number of occasions given people the option of logging a virt of mine as a find when they didn't technically find it. It is a virt inside Disneyland. The acual item to be found is not described on the page, there are no clues, and the location doesn't allow for great sat lock. Rather than require people to pay to return if they choose the wrong item, I give them the option of logging it as a find. It is about the hunt, after all.

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I have had three occasions when the cache that I was searching for turned out to be missing.

On the first one I put a note on the cache page warning other cachers that it might be missing and e-mailed the owner with an exact description of the area and the location that I thought it was in (there was a tupperware-shaped print on the ground).

For the second one I e-mailed the owner, a previous finder had already noted on the page that it might end up missing. He had unknowingly recruited a couple of non-caching kids to help him find the cache, and realized his mistake later. Did I mention that I was 120 miles from home when I was looking for this cache?

The third one was with a group. We were sure we had the right place but couldn't find the microcache. We called a cacher who had found it, who called the cache owner's aunt, who came out to where we were and verified that we were in the right spot and the cache was missing. Then she told us that the cache owner wanted to meet us, if we had time, so we followed her to his office. While we were there we signed a notebook that he had and left trade goods with him.

In all three cases I would have found the cache if it had been there.

The third one was the only one that I logged as a find.

That is how I play the game.

 

RichardMoore

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Funny - I was asked by a cache owner to do this recently, and I declined. The cache owner asked me to change my DNF to a found because the cache went missing. I declined.

 

My stance was and still is, if I didn't find the container, it isn't a find. Plain and simple. I'm caching for the enjoyment of finding a hidden treasure, not for stats. So, I'll log a DNF if I didn't find it.

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We have posted several caches as DNF, some because we could simply not find them, some because they were missing. I like to know how many I find in reality by the count.

 

What I'm thinking tho, is that a cache owner who is telling people to log their missing cache as a find constantly, should perhaps get out there and replace the cache in a timely fashion (assuming still physically able to do so, if not, I'm sure another area cacher would help them out). Thats the responsibilty we all take when placing caches, we have to maintain them. And, if they are not able to replace the cache, then it should be changed to a virtual (if in a spot where people can really enjoy the surroundings), or archived (temporarily or permanently). People should not be misled into thinking a cache is there by seeing "finds" if it is not really there.

 

Just my opinion.

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With permission from cache owners, I have logged two missing caches as found. On 8 mile cache the owner had removed the cache and had not archived the cache page. I had already found two legs of the multi that consisted of 8 miles of drriving. The owner told me to log it as a find because if the final log had been there I would have found it. He archived it that day. I will not get a chance to ever get back and sign a log, however, I did all the work and found all 3 locations.

 

The second cache KDV Catfish Cache I was the first to search for the cache and it was muggled. I contacted the owner and she went back to the cache site with me and confirmed it was gone. I logged it as found on her request, however I changed it today since I have been back to it with my wife and nephew on Nov. 16 2003 and found it at that time.

 

I will always try to get back to a cache and find it given the option. However, if the cache is never going to be replaced and I have done the search, a confirmed find of the location and permission from the owner, I will count it as a find. I have a few on my list that went missing, one has been replaced and I will be getting to it soon. Another will likely not be replaced and I am fine with the DNF Because it was questionable if it was muggled so I confirm if it was missing for the owner. I have a few others that have not been found in over a year and I do not expect to find them intact, however, I will be checking on them so the owners can decide what to do with them. And for one that the owner is no longer active someone can adopt the site or it can be archived.

 

Happy Caching

 

GEO.JOE

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I had one cache owner ask that I change my dnf to a note. I see his point (and changed it). There were a lot of DNFs and mine was a DNF because I aborted the search for terrain reasons within 300'.

 

A DNF often indicates that the cache is missing, so i make certain to tell if I had not searched well and maybe the cache is there.

 

As to an owner authorizing a find on a DNF, I have done so on one of my multi caches when two people logged DNFs on the same day and I confirmed (same day) that the final was gone.

 

I allowed them to log a find if they wanted to based on their finding of parts 1 and 2. Since ther technically was no part 3, I could hardly expect them to find it and they signed the logs in 1 and 2. It seemed good enough for me. One cacher claimed a find; the other came back later after I redesigned the cache.

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If I don't find it, it's a DNF.

 

No excuses. Not "the coordinates were off". Not "the cache wasn't there, and I would have found it if it were". Not "it was getting dark but I'm sure I could have found it."

 

Did not find=DNF.

 

And even if it is about the numbers, it has to be about the real numbers. I have a few DNFs and they are all part of my real history, so I wouldn't change them.

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I have got to be honest I logged a no find as a find. It was in Wichita, I found a cache in a small park and saw that I was close to the next one so i walked on to it, without going back to the car to grab my pda to check it out. It was a traditional in a small park how hard could it be? Anyway I hunted in a small clump of trees for 45 minutes, from zero point then spiraling out to 150 feet. At this point I walked back to the truck, and read the page. The cache (UpfromOKC) had been missing since early November. It appears that this is a vacation cache. It's absence was well documented on the page, in fact a fellow cacher had found the log book and cache contents on the ground and had carried them home and emailed the cache owner. Subsequent hunters had logged finds based on this info. I really felt cheated, it is one thing for a cache to be missing, but for an owner to know that one is gone for nearly three months and not disable it is another. I know it was only 45 minutes, but I was only in town for a day and a half and my caching time was very limited. I could have gone on to hunt a couple of caches that were there. I know that i should have logged a needs to be archived note, but I try not to do that except as a last resort, and certainly not out of my own caching area. The way I see it, the owner knew it was missing and had chosen not to do anything about it. I guess I felt like I was trading my wasted time for the smiley face, luckily the owner kept me honest by deleting my log a couple of weeks later, when they disabled the cache temporarily, until they can get back up there to replace it.

 

Outside of that I have played like a good little boy and logged a found when I found it and a DNF when I really looked but did not find. I am sorry, but if I did not get out of the car, I did not try and I don't log DNF's for DNT's.

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I found the charred, melted, and shattered remains of a thermos-cache that was in the middle of a control burn area. I placed a complete micro in the remains (with a note in the new micro-log), moved the remains to a less conspicuous location, and logged it as a find. He's since replaced the cache, but never questioned my find.

 

I always carry a few complete micros.

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I always thought the point was to find the cache, not the place where it was, or might have been. I recall one instance where the cache was a jar screwed to a board by its lid. The jar went missing, so people who found the lid logged found its. OK maybe I'd give them that one. Then the lid was gone, so people were logging the screw holes as a find. Gimme a break :D . And it wasn't one person, it was a bunch.

 

They way I look at, you either found the cache, or you didn't. If you didn't, its a DNF.

I once logged the footprints left by the cache owner that were left around the cache site after the cache was stolen. That counts right? B)

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I know it was only 45 minutes, but I was only in town for a day and a half and my caching time was very limited. I could have gone on to hunt a couple of caches that were there. I know that i should have logged a needs to be archived note, but I try not to do that except as a last resort, and certainly not out of my own caching area. The way I see it, the owner knew it was missing and had chosen not to do anything about it. I guess I felt like I was trading my wasted time for the smiley face

 

And your false smiley face could have caused another unsuspecting geocacher to waste another 45 minutes, or more looking for it. "Geez, it has to be here. Someone just found it yesterday. Let's look a little longer".

Edited by briansnat
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I'm a big stickler on this issue. Any bozo can get within 25' of a cache, finding the hide is a different story. All for a high ratio, who cares! Not Founds are inevitable, the simply might not be there!

 

I found a cache imbedded in ice, it was obviously the cache but couldn't get it without destroying the location. The dilemma, I can't exactly say I found it because I couldn't retrieve it or open it. A not found isn't exactly right because I know exactly where it is. Solution? Leave a note in the log, wait for a thaw, return and open it for a real find.

 

Hey, you don't make children by being within 25' of a woman! The same applies to geocaches. You must make your log entry.

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I think you should post a "Found It" on anything you want, whether you found it or not, as long as you can come up with some lame pretzelogical reason to feel good about it. Why is everybody so hung-up on "Finding" the cache? You drove there, got out of the car and walked around a bit, that's good enough.

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If you're sure the cache is missing, that what the "Needs Archived" log type is for.

 

If you didn't get the cache in hand and sign the log, then you didn't find it.

 

I think someone said it above, but marking a find for a missing cache is going to confuse future finders if they think the cache actually exists and go out to search for it themselves.

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If the cache has been plundered, I need to find at least an identifiable remnant of the cache (parts of the container, log book pages) in order to log it as a find. Otherwise it is a Not Found. If it was gone, I wouldn't want to mislead others into thinking that the cache was still there with a Found log.

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I agree that this is up to the person doing the hunting and the cache owner. My own view is that a cache is not 'found' until I have it in my hands, sign the log, and get it back to its original hiding place as found. If conditions prevent me from doing this, for example, people standing nearby so that I would give away the location, then I may post a note. If I search and search for a cache and cannot find it, I always post a DNF. If you don't post DNF, the owner won't know that something may be wrong. I have encountered cases where previous hunters were certain that they had found the location of a "missing" cache, and had left a trade item there and posted a FIND log. I found the caches, put their items inside, and posted a real FIND log -- but did not say anything about those fake finds. Hey like someone said, it's your own game -- score it as you see it. My own rules are just pretty strict, but I would not expect others to follow them to a tee.

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I have encountered cases where previous hunters were certain that they had found the location of a "missing" cache, and had left a trade item there and posted a FIND log. I found the caches, put their items inside, and posted a real FIND log -- but did not say anything about those fake finds.

 

I've heard of this happening. I think it's an odd way to get yourself a find.

 

As to being certain you found the spot where the cache was, or its remains, you can't always be that certain. I had a cache in a small, white plastic container, hidden in a tree stump. I received an e-mail from someone who was searching for it. They found an empty, small, white plastic containter on the ground next to a stump. He even sent me a photo. The container looked like mine and the stump could have been the same one...so it didn't look too good for my cache.

 

I went to the cache site and found my cache safely sitting in its hiding place. About 30 feet away was the plastic container and stump in the photo.

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I wouldn't log a missing cache as a find.

 

As a matter of fact, I went caching with Mopar to do his Revenge on the King cache for my 300th find. He was with me and confirmed that I had found the hiding spot but the cache was missing. I didn't actually find the cache, I didn't sign a log book and I didn't make a trade. I found a hiding spot not a cache. So, I didn't log it, but I did post a note on the cache page.

 

So there it is. My opinion. Love it or leave, I care not. :huh:

 

Happy caching and stuff! :lol:

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Why is everybody so hung-up on "Finding" the cache? You drove there, got out of the car and walked around a bit, that's good enough.

I'm not sure why you are such a stickler for details.

 

Why require them to get out of the car?

 

Why require them to even drive there?

 

"I printed out the sheet, I'm sure I could have found it, so I logged it as a find". :lol:

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Why is everybody so hung-up on "Finding" the cache? You drove there, got out of the car and walked around a bit, that's good enough.

I'm not sure why you are such a stickler for details.

 

Why require them to get out of the car?

 

Why require them to even drive there?

 

"I printed out the sheet, I'm sure I could have found it, so I logged it as a find". :lol:

You make a lot of sense, I think the cache owner should log finds for all the regular, area cachers, they know we could find it.

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I know it was only 45 minutes, but I was only in town for a day and a half and my caching time was very limited. I could have gone on to hunt a couple of caches that were there. I know that i should have logged a needs to be archived note, but I try not to do that except as a last resort, and certainly not out of my own caching area. The way I see it, the owner knew it was missing and had chosen not to do anything about it. I guess I felt like I was trading my wasted time for the smiley face

 

And your false smiley face could have caused another unsuspecting geocacher to waste another 45 minutes, or more looking for it. "Geez, it has to be here. Someone just found it yesterday. Let's look a little longer".

Here's a good example of the problems that a false-find can cause: The cache name is Dare. Five cachers had noted that the cache appeared to be missing. On Feb. 2nd along comes a cacher (a friend of the cache owner) and posts a find - stating that he found it easily. The next day, I, and three other cachers went to the site thinking that the cache had been replaced (two of us had been there previously and had noted the cache appeared to be missing). This false-find created a wild-goose chase wasting our time and gasoline driving to the site. :lol:

 

Here are two of the logs after the false-find was logged: Ropingthewind and RandMan

 

The cache owner finally disabled the cache the next day.

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This happened one time to me. It was just after we started finding caches. I found exactly where it was hidden and even identified the wire that attached to it to hold it in place. I emailed the cache owner and he said that yes, that is where the cache was and to go ahead and log it as he was going to disable it anyways, which he did the same day. Don't know as I would do anything different now, unless of course if I don't hear back from the cache owner.

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Here's a good example of the problems that a false-find can cause: The cache name is Dare. Five cachers had noted that the cache appeared to be missing. On Feb. 2nd along comes a cacher (a friend of the cache owner) and posts a find - stating that he found it easily. The next day, I, and three other cachers went to the site thinking that the cache had been replaced (two of us had been there previously and had noted the cache appeared to be missing). This false-find created a wild-goose chase wasting our time and gasoline driving to the site

 

This just reinforces what I've been saying all along, that cheating at this sport is not harmless.

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Why is everybody so hung-up on "Finding" the cache? You drove there, got out of the car and walked around a bit, that's good enough.

I'm not sure why you are such a stickler for details.

 

Why require them to get out of the car?

 

Why require them to even drive there?

 

"I printed out the sheet, I'm sure I could have found it, so I logged it as a find". :blink:

Actually, I recently had a cacher log a find on my virtual cache who stated in his log "Been here so many times it was not necessery to actualy go down there. Figrued it out by the discription you left. Probably see this thing atleast 3 to 4 times a day" [sic]. I e-mailed him twice and gave him a week to find the answer to the question (as proof that he'd been there) and then deleted his find.

 

RichardMoore

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It's very simple. Today for example:

Found it=located container, signed log/ emailed owner with requirement for a Virtual (12).

Did not find=could not locate container, could not sign log (4).

Purple frowns/yellow smiles. Who gives a rats a**. I was out all day hiking in places I have never gone before=priceless

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OK here's a new twist.

 

I have a new account "LostCachePatrol" whose sole purpose id to hunt for and verify caches that have been reported as missing. Mostly, these will be archived caches. I will recover any that I find and if searching without express permission from the owner, I will simply log that it IS THERE if I find it.

 

I would like the "my cache page" for this account to keep track of all "closed" cases, meaning all that I have firmly concluded do not exist or have recovered. I would post just a note for attempts.

 

So, I am considering posting "finds" whenever I "close" a case and my stats page is going to show the number of caches "closed", but they will be listed as finds.

 

On the archived cache pages I will explain this in the find log.

 

This will only apply to "LostCachePatrol" finds.

 

Opinions?

Edited by ChurchCampDave
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Here's my sad story. :blink: We had a cache placed about 100 miles south of here and new caches are so rare that I headed out to look for it and another in the area. The cache had been placed by someone with no finds and apparently an email address that doesn't get read. I followed the coordinates to a house that probably belonged to the hider or the hider's mom. I turned around and left about 200 yds from the house. The next day, another seeker logged it as a find. He told me in an email, that since he walked up to the front gate, he would count it even though there was nothing there to find or log.

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Each cache I seek is a quest. A quest to find a cache. As with any quest, there are often obstacles that get in the way of success. Plundering is one of them. If the cache is gone, the quest has not been achieved. How can anyone with honour, log this as a find?

 

I once drove 25 miles to look for a cache, and then hiked a mile in pouring rain. After getting drenched, all I finally found was the lid of a plundered cache (with the cache co-ordinates written on it). I initially logged it as a find, and then, after some reflection, and thinking about what that "found it" icon really means, I changed the log to a DNF. I felt better.

Edited by seneca
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If you didn't get the cache in hand and sign the log, then you didn't find it.

I have one I logged as a find when I didn't sign the log. I found the cache, opened it, and even had the log in my hand. But it had been raining and the log sheets were soaked. I couldn't sign it. I was afraid to even try unfolding it (it was a micro) because it might have fallen apart. I felt I was close enough to claim it as a find.

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If you didn't get the cache in hand and sign the log, then you didn't find it.

I have one I logged as a find when I didn't sign the log. I found the cache, opened it, and even had the log in my hand. But it had been raining and the log sheets were soaked. I couldn't sign it. I was afraid to even try unfolding it (it was a micro) because it might have fallen apart. I felt I was close enough to claim it as a find.

I think we'd all agree that is a find.

 

I was at one cache in a flood-prone area whose log was so wet that the pencil markings I made in the log are probably illegible.

 

Another cacher with me didn't even want to touch the wet, stinking mess, but he's logged a find for it. I don't think that's out of line.

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OK here's a new twist.

 

I have a new account "LostCachePatrol" whose sole purpose id to hunt for and verify caches that have been reported as missing.

 

So, I am considering posting "finds" whenever I "close" a case and my stats page is going to show the number of caches "closed", but they will be listed as finds.

 

On the archived cache pages I will explain this in the find log.

 

This will only apply to "LostCachePatrol" finds.

 

Opinions?

I'm a little uneasy about this, but I understand what you are trying to do.

 

(If Jeremy added links that would let you see the number of notes or DNFs you posted, along with the list of them, you wouldn't need to do this, right?)

 

I can imagine some other cachers being misled by a "find" on a cache, especially if they are working from downloads and not reading the log.

 

But you are clearly not doing this for the numbers game, and you are performing a great service of looking for geo-litter, so I'm not going to complain about your plans.

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If you didn't get the cache in hand and sign the log, then you didn't find it.

I have one I logged as a find when I didn't sign the log. I found the cache, opened it, and even had the log in my hand. But it had been raining and the log sheets were soaked. I couldn't sign it. I was afraid to even try unfolding it (it was a micro) because it might have fallen apart. I felt I was close enough to claim it as a find.

I would agree that there are probably a few exceptions, as with any rule, and this is probably one of them. I've never had this problem, but I suppose that if I did, the signature item I drop into every cache I find (a little rubber block of cheese) would be proof that I was there.

 

Of course I'm a wimp and don't cache when it's raining... :blink:

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