Ohio Road Survey Crosses......

[csncfg]

For at least the last 10 years (?) or so I 've noticed many survey markers on Ohio backroads. These are usually marked by large white plus shaped crosses that would be visible from the air or from a satellite.

 

They usually have a metal plate embeded in the road with at least one bolt visible to access the plate. Some of these eventually get covered up by blacktop when a road is resurfaced.

 

Have seen "surveyors" at these crosses with what I beleive are yellow "GPS sticks" about 4 feet high even during snow and rain showers...or clear weather.

 

Makes me think it might involve infrared or (?) sensitive satellites.

 

Can find little info on the web, but heard quite a while ago that this was some kind of a statewide survey. Seems possible that it is being used to link GPS positioning with satellite "visual" sensing.

 

Some seem to think that there are sensors placed beneath the plates that log cars driving by.

 

Does anyone have info on this or a link?

 

Just curious.

[+Renegade Knight]

As a part of design and planning of roadways arial photographs are often taken. Those photo's are an in expensive way to get quick topographic information for large areas. However to be accurate enough for planning and preliminary desing they need to be rectified.

 

Arial photos are distorted just by the nature of the camera lense. By placing the targets (crosses/plusses) at known locations and having those locations be surveyed by GPS or conventional means you can use this information to rectify the arial photography so that it's distortaion has been corrected.

 

Once complete the marks may be abandoned in place since they are no longer used.

 

You did have some other things in your description to where I'm not entirely sure this is what you were getting at so the floor is still open.

[csncfg]

I have several "theories":

 

1) Geological survey to detect earth plate movements...Ohio not a great choice due to lower seismic activity?

 

2) System designed to calibrate GPS satellites with "visual" satellites.

 

3) A method to finetune older boundary surveys?

 

4) "GPS stick" might be uploading data of some type.

 

5) An attempt to communicate with aliens?

 

6) All of the above?

 

Never had the nerve to unbolt one of them...did see one once that might have had an antenna attached and offset from the metal plate.

 

During observed "GPS stick data collection" (?) I have noticed large 4WD trucks monitoring the situation.

 

Did not see any other alien craft at the time.

 

My guess is research on several levels...including monitoring of traffic patterns...individual or general.

 

RFID? In the near future tires will be required to contain these.

 

GPS bugs? Some newer cars have GPS. Since '96 all cars have the "black boxes" used for engine/trans diagnosis and accident reconstruction. Planted bugs?

 

Interesting that other than a couple of news "blurbs" I have found no other info on this.

 

The future is nigh?

[Dan Vull]

The GPS stick app is most likely a surveyor collecting data in RTK mode (real time kinematic) This requires two L1/L2 (dual freq) survey grade receivers one is a base and the one on the pole is a rover. The base broadcasts it's GPS measurements to the rover for real time processing and data colection.

 

RK is bang on about the photo panels. If there is a monument at the center of the panel and it is at a road instersection it may be a section corner. search PLSS for a definition of a section corner.

 

GPS is only 'calibrated' by the ground control segment. These are monitoring stations throughout the world that monitor the orbit and performance of the constellation the best one to visit is Ascension Island. I was on the team that established it's first set of geodetic coordinates.

 

Finally the black box thing; these modules only record thirth seconds of information and then re-intialize. So it would record various data prior to a crash, speed, braking habit, lights, turn signals , seat belt usage, etc.

 

cheers

[+GEO*Trailblazer 1]

Radar Topography Mission

 

I know that several points were set up for Laser reflectors for the Space Shuttle to the Earth,and I think it is the Topex-Poseioden that has the laser reflectors on the bottom to refract,or reflect laser shots from the Earth.

 

I will have to do some looking back for it.

[+GeckoGeek]

Geological survey to detect earth plate movements...Ohio not a great choice due to lower seismic activity?

Isn't the mid-west way past due for something? I remember the news years ago, but haven't heard anything since.

[+GEO*Trailblazer 1]

TOPEX

 

I still do not think this is the right satts for what I am trying to show ya.

 

I will find it some day here,just to much stuff to keep up with for me.

More advancements in Technoligies in the last t 5 years than in my entire lifetime.

 

Its in there at

 

Satallite Laser Ranging (SLR)

 

[edit]:add link

 

Look under Instrument

 

LRA

Laser Retroreflector Array

Edited February 3, 2004 by GEO*Trailblazer 1

[csncfg]

The GPS stick app is most likely a surveyor collecting data in RTK mode (real time kinematic)  This requires two L1/L2 (dual freq) survey grade receivers one is a base and the one on the pole is a rover.  The base broadcasts it's GPS measurements to the rover for real time processing and data colection. 

 

RK is bang on about the photo panels.  If there is a monument at the center of the panel and it is at a road instersection it may be a section corner.  search PLSS for a definition of a section corner.

 

GPS is only 'calibrated' by the ground control segment.  These are monitoring stations throughout the world that monitor the orbit and performance of the constellation the best one to visit is Ascension Island.  I was on the team that established it's first set of geodetic coordinates. 

 

Finally the black box thing;  these modules only record thirth seconds of information and then re-intialize.  So it would record various data prior to a crash, speed, braking habit, lights, turn signals , seat belt usage, etc. 

 

cheers

The "GPS stick" I mention is about 4 feet high, yellow, and has a larger "bulbous" area at the bottom pointed towards the marker.

 

This is not the usual surveying team where there are two people involved.

 

These markers are probably section corners or boundarys since some do not line up with the center of the roads...some are at intersections and others aren't.

 

Interesting that some of the "readings" are taken during snows and drizzles...either driven by scheduling or intentional.

 

The "black boxes" are now being used as part of EPA emissions testing in Oh...so I'd guess that they record more than a few seconds of data.

 

Check this page for available covert tracking devices:

 

http://www.gpss.co.uk/chase.htm

 

Those used by ???? will be smaller and more advanced?

[Z15]

Can you get a photo of these?

 

I wonder if they could be what we call here, "Frost Tubes". Used to monitor the amount of frost in the ground. They can use this data for many things like determining when to impose load restrictions on highways etc. Can't say for sure but I would call the state DOT and ask what these are. It may surprise to find out it something simple.

 

As for tracking devices. We get CBC TV station on our cable system (lots of NHL games) and they did a story a few weeks back about rental cars and GPS tracking devices. They told of a canadian business man who flew to CA for some business and decided to go to Las Vega with his rental car. As most people never do, he did not read the fine print in which it state something to the effect that if he were to drive his rental car outside of the state of CA, there would be a daily additional service charge and also a $1 per mile charge. When he turned in his rental car at the airports he was billed over $3000 for the use. When he questioned it, they showed him a printout of all the location he has been in. All the cars had hidden GPS tracking devices.

 

CBC = Canadina Broadcasting Company

[csncfg]

Can you get a photo of these?

 

I wonder if they could be what we call here,  "Frost Tubes".  Used to monitor the amount of frost in the ground.  They can use this data for many things like determining when to impose load restrictions on highways etc.  Can't say for sure but I would call the state DOT and ask what these are.  It may surprise to find out it something simple.

 

As for tracking devices.  We get CBC TV station on our cable system (lots of NHL games) and they did a story a few weeks back about  rental cars and GPS tracking devices.  They told of a canadian business man who flew to CA for some business and decided to go to Las Vega with his rental car.  As most people never do, he did not read the fine print in which it state something to the effect that if he were to drive his rental car outside of the state of CA, there would be a daily additional service charge and also a $1 per mile charge.  When he turned in his rental car at the airports he was billed over $3000 for the use.  When he questioned it, they showed him a printout of all the location he has been in.  All the cars had hidden GPS tracking devices.

 

CBC = Canadina Broadcasting Company

Have seen some newer sensors placed in city streets lately...here and there.

 

These are not the same type as seen on the roads.

 

Have seen many geological survey type brass makers on public lands.

 

These markers are not typical survey markers.

 

Description:

 

Large painted white plus sign (like a Red Cross symbol only white) probably 4 to 5 feet across with a 4-5" square metal plate in the center held by 1-2 bolts.

 

"GPS stick" would likely be communicating with a satellite or uploading collected data.

 

Undercover types involved might be there due to some people thinking they are being tracked and wanting to do something about it? Have seen some people trying to drive around these markers.

 

I drive back roads for the scenery...sometimes you see more than you expect.

 

* I could take a picture or pictures and I could also map their locations....and have something like a crop circle design? They aren't really searchable...since they are obvious. Generally seem to be in a grid pattern.

[Z15]

There is one reason and one reason only for the painted Cross's.. AERIAL PHOTOGRAPHY

 

Next time you see someone working at one of these, stop and ask questions.

 

One day (July 1996) I was coming out from a boat launch crossing an RR, this young guy was holding the dummy end of a tape measure at the center of the road opposite a bench mark I had dug up about 1 yr prior. As I slowly drove up I also noticed a utility truck with no marking on it and gov't plates. So I asked the guy what he was doing? He said looking for a bench mark. I then noticed a rack on the top of the truck loaded with those orange carsonite witness posts. It was a recon team for a NGS leveling party, they were setting a new line of levels and needed this mark. When I told them I worked for the gov't also and found out we both new the state advisor, they were happy to tell what they were up to. Leveling to CORS stations and harbors of refuge on the great lakes. A few days later as I was driving out to a park on lake Superior I came across the leveling crew, 2 young people on small dirt bikes (rodmen and rodwoman) and a 4x4 suburban running levels to USCG CORS station KEW1 and KEW2 on Lake Superior.

[+Kewaneh & Shark]

I'll second ElCamino's one and only reason - AERIAL PHOTOGRAPHY. I've set many aerial control crosses, using both paint and cloth, and there really isn't much else that can be done with them, except possibly burying treasure (or caching).

 

I'll also second the 'stop and ask' suggestion. You'd be hard pressed to find a surveyor who won't take a minute to answer a question.

 

As a matter of fact, in July 2001, I was painting some aerial targets in rural Tulare County, (Calif) for a 14 mile long county road project. It was a relatively high-altitude flight so the targets were eight feet across with 18 inch wide wings. They were fairly conspicuous to say the least and many people stopped to inqire about them. I had to laugh at one farmer who likened them to crop circles. He said that 'they just appear and nobody knows anything about them'.

 

He knows what they are now.

[csncfg]

I'll second ElCamino's one and only reason - AERIAL PHOTOGRAPHY.  I've set many aerial control crosses, using both paint and cloth, and there really isn't much else that can be done with them, except possibly burying treasure (or caching).

 

 

Not to belabor the point but.......

 

These ARE more like 7-8 feet across (did not measure them) and there were some in grassy areas at the beginning of this 10 year period.

 

But this doesn't explain the covers, which imply something being under them. Nor does it explain the "GPS sticks". Nor the "data collection" during snow & rain.

 

"As a matter of fact, in July 2001, I was painting some aerial targets in rural Tulare County, (Calif) for a 14 mile long county road project. It was a relatively high-altitude flight so the targets were eight feet across with 18 inch wide wings. They were fairly conspicuous to say the least and many people stopped to inqire about them. I had to laugh at one farmer who likened them to crop circles. He said that 'they just appear and nobody knows anything about them'.

 

He knows what they are now."

 

He actually "knows" only what he has been told they are.

 

"I'll also second the 'stop and ask' suggestion. You'd be hard pressed to find a surveyor who won't take a minute to answer a question."

 

And I might get a pleasant "need to know" answer. Did talk to one guy but I didn't bother to get too specific.

 

Not trying to be antagonistic here, but I tend to think for myself whenever observations support it. I know also better than to take any online info as factual without sifting through it. Just another paranoid farmer.

 

I do appreciate all the opinions & info though. Have learned some stuff.

[Z15]

I used to place these aerials targets a lot. The bigger they are the higher the flight. For a normal mapping flight for highway construction, the total length was 8 ft, 2-4ft leg of the X. We also would use a V or a T to mark the point. We set monuments at these targets, a long 3/4" iron rod in ground or a MAG nail and special cap in pavement. We would also panel any section corners or bench marks if they would serve the purpose. We were directed where to place them by the Photogrammetry Engineer with a marked USGS map. Our goal was to place them were it was safe to work and where they would like remain till construction. We rarely removed them unless it was on private property. Once the flight was taken, we would then go back at some point and survey in the control to the panels. The last few years we used nothing but GPS. Once the positions were determined, many of these panels were then used for all work related to the project. So its not unusual to have been back surveying in the same place again and again.

 

We were often criticized by the public who had no understanding of the work involved. They were always suspicious and thought the marks were for the police to catch speeders. Little did then know, the police painted their own marks. Once we were painting these targets (normal term for them) in a town that was on the flyway for a AF base that had B52's SAC. They flew out of here all over the world. Anyway as we were painting them, a local police officer pulled up- and wanted to know what all the yellow X's were for. My partner, a older gent told him jokingly that they were for the B52's to use for target practice. Wouldn't you know a few days later, this person walks up and asks us if its true about the B52 dropping bombs on these. The officer must have bs'd someone with the same story and people were believing it.

 

As for the type of rod or equipment being used. Survey equipment is as varied as any other type of equipment.

 

Around here there is a large EPA Super-fund site. Covers a larger area. Back around 1995 USGS came in and set aerial panels all over the place for mapping of the super-fund areas of concern. I know this because they contacted us to acquire some safety equipment to borrow and permits to paint state highway with the marks, and where to get the pavement marking paint etc. It was not for several years before they were back doing the survey work. It was done with GPS. 3 of these area have been cleaned up and the last one is supposed to go this year. They will probably be back to fly it again to determine the results.

 

It was not unusual for our maintenance guys to have to go out and sand blast away one of our aerial targets because some elderly person was afraid the X was going to devalue their property if it was pained on the road near their home.

 

I could probably write a book about all the reasons I heard for these aerial panels. The stories people come up with defied imagination. Some only believed what the wanted to believe and not amount of truth would convince them.

 

Please don't take what I say to mean I am referring to anyone posting here.

Edited February 4, 2004 by elcamino

[Wild T2]

Did the "GPS Sticks" look like this?

http://www.schonstedt.com/products/magneti...cx-ga72cd.html#

 

If so they were looking for the survey marker at the center of the aerial target.

 

Also, as highways get re-paved some localities preserve the original mark in a steel monument box below the present day road grade.

[Z15]

Here are some common survey monument box's

 

 

Edited February 4, 2004 by elcamino

[+Kewaneh & Shark]

I'll second ElCamino's one and only reason - AERIAL PHOTOGRAPHY.  I've set many aerial control crosses, using both paint and cloth, and there really isn't much else that can be done with them, except possibly burying treasure (or caching).

 

 

Not to belabor the point but.......

 

These ARE more like 7-8 feet across (did not measure them) and there were some in grassy areas at the beginning of this 10 year period.

 

But this doesn't explain the covers, which imply something being under them. Nor does it explain the "GPS sticks". Nor the "data collection" during snow & rain.

 

"As a matter of fact, in July 2001, I was painting some aerial targets in rural Tulare County, (Calif) for a 14 mile long county road project. It was a relatively high-altitude flight so the targets were eight feet across with 18 inch wide wings. They were fairly conspicuous to say the least and many people stopped to inqire about them. I had to laugh at one farmer who likened them to crop circles. He said that 'they just appear and nobody knows anything about them'.

 

He knows what they are now."

 

He actually "knows" only what he has been told they are.

 

"I'll also second the 'stop and ask' suggestion. You'd be hard pressed to find a surveyor who won't take a minute to answer a question."

 

And I might get a pleasant "need to know" answer. Did talk to one guy but I didn't bother to get too specific.

 

Not trying to be antagonistic here, but I tend to think for myself whenever observations support it. I know also better than to take any online info as factual without sifting through it. Just another paranoid farmer.

 

I do appreciate all the opinions & info though. Have learned some stuff.

As long as we're not belaboring anything, I'll stick with the aerial/photogrametric control target theory. Simply airplanes taking pictures for mapping purposes. In order for that control to be useful to the photogrammetrist, it is necessary for the exact center of the cross to be measured to - both horizontally and vertically. A semi-permanent or permanent monument is usually placed at the center and a survey measures to it using either conventional methods or GPS.

 

Monument wells are commonly used to place permanent survey control points below grade for protective purposes. Most wells are round, as shown by ElCamino, but I've seen square and triangular wells also.

 

Monument wells do occasionally get paved over. If so, about the only way to find them is with a magnetic locator, such as those shown in the Schonstedt link provided by Wild T2. They are about four feet long, yellow, and have a larger 'bulbous' area at the top.

 

GPS data collection can be done throughout the year, in many types of weather conditions, with the exception of stormy conditions, including snow and at night. When surveyors are using GPS techniques, the GPSrs only collect data from the satellites - the GPS satellites are not collecting the data from the surveyor.

 

As far as the crop circle comment from the farmer: I thought the comment was funny. I'd never heard the targets refered to like that, and now I like to refer to them that way. It's a fitting description. The farmer did get an accurate description of the purpose and function of the crosses. However he did not get information specific about the project. He didn't ask, and it wasn't my place to tell him, but if he was so inclined, he would be able to call the County Depatment of Public Works and inquire with them.

 

When I am asked about surveying or survey proceedure by someone who sees me working, I will generally stop and give them an answer they can understand. Most surveyors will do this. However, if the answer they get is not what they want to hear, I'll be happy to tell them anything that helps uphold whatever conspiracy theory they're thinking up.

[csncfg]

My final answer....

 

On the face of it the aerial-satellite survey is the plausible & obvious explaination and I mentioned this in my first post.

 

All the explainations up to this point are likely valid views, but probably are just a part of the overall picture.

 

The "GPS sticks" are used with the large end pointed to the ground...no need to search for anything metallic since it is marked by an 8 foot cross?

 

Very possible that several things are going on at the same time and that some involved don't know all.

 

No doubt that the cops use marks on the ground to determine your avg speed from point to point...my guess is that around 60-70% of the light planes in the air on weekdays are our fuzzy friends...and they don't just fly down the highways.

 

I don't generally go looking for conspiracy theories & paranoid ideas, but unlike some, I no longer deride these kinds of views out of hand.

 

Have found thru experience that there is a certain kind of mentality that likes to promote this mildly derisive kind of attitude concerning various areas of knowledge that might involve more extreme ideas and I have learned to expect this and get past it...there is the generally accepted view of things and then there can be a deeper level of observation & understanding.

 

In any area that I've "researched" to any extent I've found the same.

 

The "generally accepted" point of view is promoted by some for a reason. Think about that.

 

Look outside the box?

 

Not that the "crosses" themselves are that big a deal...this has turned into a philsophical discussion of some kind.

 

---------

 

This is my story and I'm sticking with it.

[+Draegon]

Geological survey to detect earth plate movements...Ohio not a great choice due to lower seismic activity?

Isn't the mid-west way past due for something? I remember the news years ago, but haven't heard anything since.

The Ohio River valley lies on top of a decent-sized fault line. I used to live next to a house that was nearly demolished by the last earthquake in Cincinnati (can't remember the year and don't feel like looking it up ), so seismic activity coiuld be a likely solution, studying the pre-quake, post-quake of 'down time' effects to learn how to better predict earthquakes.

[+Genoist]

I've seen these crosses in the roads in Noble county in Indiana too. I once saw a surveyor at one, but didn't have time to stop and ask what he was doing.