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Hybrid Containers


RPW

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This issue is inside a couple of other topics at the moment however I thought that it would be useful to give it a topic of its own.

 

What would be the best way to create a hybrid ammo/plastic can so that it combines all of the good characteristics of ammo cans -- waterproof, rugged, one latch closing, all weather -- with the good quality of plastic -- visibility.

 

Note: I am concerned mainly with hybrid containers in "rugged" environments. That is, places which experience a lot of freeze/thaw weather, snow, rain, and heat extemes.

 

Several questions come to mind:

  • Which side(s) to cut out of the ammo box?
  • How large (width, length) of a cut to make into the ammo box?
  • Put the plastic on the outside or inside of the box? Or both?
  • Which plastic to use? Lexan?
  • Thickness of the plastic?
  • How to fasten the plastic onto the ammo box? Glue? Rivets? Bolts? Tape?
  • Should caulk or gasket sealant be used?
  • And, of course, is this even going to work and remain rugged & watertight?

I am expecially concerned about the different rates of contraction and expansion of metal and plastic since this might cause the plastic to peel away from the metal.

 

"Rugged" means standing up to geocaching abuse -- people stuffing too much swag into a box, people not handling the geo-container with kid gloves, etc.

 

Has anyone made a hybrid box? Any insights?

 

I have spare time -- it is snowy outside! -- and the spare ammo boxes so I am ready for some experimentation.

 

Thanks in advance.

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Sounds like a great idea ... once a significant amount of metal were removed from the ammo box, I wonder if the ammo box would stay viable and robust? The ammo box could become 'flimsy'. You may just have to experiment with this project. I would be very interested in your research along the way. :)

Edited by clearpath
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Geez, that is a lot of work just for visibility. It would be better and more benficial to the human race to invent a clear metal. :)

 

The "visibility" thing is to keep people from thinking it is a bomb or something? It is far in the back of my mind, but I don't worry about that much. I might be more scared of some ammo box that someone has tinkered with that much, too. :)

 

But seriously, I would say use Lexan on the inside with glue that would act as a sealant. I don't think cutting away a window on the large sides would affect the durabilty much for this application - I would cut away about half the overall area, centered. That, I think, would be the best bang for your buck (effort). I think it is very doable to get a watertight box this way, depending on the glue you use, of course. I can't think of a good one off the top of my head. Maybe you could use one for strength and one for sealing? You could even go back after the Lexan is bonded and put a bead of silicone around the edge where the metal meets the Lexan.

 

What would you cut it with - a Dremmel? I would think you would need something a little heavier duty, but then again, I don't have much experience with it.

Edited by SamLowrey
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I've got several large sheets of Lexan, ranging from .125 to .375 inches in thickness. I think even the thinnest that I have is going to be strong enough to prevent much weakening of the ammo box. My suggestion would be to make a 1/2 inch wooden frame to glue the Lexan into, then use screws to attach that to the inside of the box (wouldn't cut down on interior dimensions that much, and also protect the wood from the elements), then seal the entire thing with a good outdoor caulking, such as what is used in decorative garden ponds or on automobile windshield frames.

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I know that umc is working on the exact same thing, might wanna touch base with him.

It sounds like a fun project, and it will be a cool and creative cache container, but if bomb concerns and the like is the reason behind it, forget it.

Once its closed and dark inside, and packed with McToys, logbook, info sheet and the like, you probably won't be able to see most of whats inside anyway.

Also, as far as caches being blown up by bomb squads, I think, most are all of them have been tupperware style caches anyway. Not sure if any ammo boxes have been blown up yet. So even if they can look into a little window and see a mctoy, they are still gonna blow it up, because they can.

Edited by Mopar
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I've got several large sheets of Lexan, ranging from .125 to .375 inches in thickness.

Why do you have so much lexan? hmmm?

 

Forget, I'm not sure I want to know :)

I "borrowed" it from one of my old jobs! :)

Bring it to New Mexico. I'll build a BattleBot with it :P

Ok...see ya in about 8 hours!

 

I forgot to mention in my idea about the ammo box hybrid (back on topic, finally), that even though the wooden frame is inside the box, you should still seal it with a good all-weather polyurethane, such as Deft or Helmsman. :)

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I've got several large sheets of Lexan, ranging from .125 to .375 inches in thickness.  I think even the thinnest that I have is going to be strong enough to prevent much weakening of the ammo box.  My suggestion would be to make a 1/2 inch wooden frame to glue the Lexan into, then use screws to attach that to the inside of the box (wouldn't cut down on interior dimensions that much, and also protect the wood from the elements), then seal the entire thing with a good outdoor caulking, such as what is used in decorative garden ponds or on automobile windshield frames.

I was just experimenting with a couple different size ammo boxes. It would appear as if some pressure is applied to the container once the latch is engaged or in the closed position. I am guessing that the ammo boxes were designed to withstand the amount of pressure that is applied to the containter once the latch is closed. Cutting away part of the box could have an impact on the 'opening and closing' of the ammo container. The wooden frame idea that Sparky outlined could help with the pressure problem. Another idea would be to use an aluminum frame and also screw it in place using the ammo box as the anchor. Cutting the skin away from the ammo box would be easy using either a cutting torch or cutting wheel.

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I was just experimenting with a couple different size ammo boxes. It would appear as if some pressure is applied to the container once the latch is engaged or in the closed position. I am guessing that the ammo boxes were designed to withstand the amount of pressure that is applied to the containter once the latch is closed. Cutting away part of the box could have an impact on the 'opening and closing' of the ammo container. The wooden frame idea that Sparky outlined could help with the pressure problem. Another idea would be to use an aluminum frame and also screw it in place using the ammo box as the anchor. Cutting the skin away from the ammo box would be easy using either a cutting torch or cutting wheel.

Yeah, the "tension" from the lid being latched would be my main concern for the long term. It the box flexes the seal won't be made.

 

I would think cutting away from the middle of the side wouldn't hurt too much as long as you leave a couple inches of the metal on the edges. The middle of the material doesn't provide as much strength as the edges. I see designs where weight is a concern and the middle material is removed. Or simply think of tubular construction (in a bicycle, for instance)

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Careful what kind of glue or sealant you use wiith the Lexan. Any nastey solvents in it will cloud the plastic and you'll no longer have a clear box. At work we cement lexan together with Methylene Chloride. Case-way SC325 is a good choice. Devon Siltite silicone sealant will do the sealing job. The glue won't bond to metal though. I'm guessing the framework idea will be the best bet. Perhaps leave most of the ammo box intact and install a couple of picture windows in it. Gasket them with the Siltite. Sides, bottom and lid?

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Why not just make the whole box out of lexan? Glues the sides and bottom together and put a hinge and gasket on the top.

 

But for a window into a metal can I would still use window glazing tape.

Why don't you just build an ammo box out of that transparent aluminum they keep that talking about on that movie :) .

 

Now, where did I put the remote control for the transporter?? :)

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Careful what kind of glue or sealant you use wiith the Lexan. Any nastey solvents in it will cloud the plastic and you'll no longer have a clear box. At work we cement lexan together with Methylene Chloride. Case-way SC325 is a good choice. Devon Siltite silicone sealant will do the sealing job. The glue won't bond to metal though. I'm guessing the framework idea will be the best bet. Perhaps leave most of the ammo box intact and install a couple of picture windows in it. Gasket them with the Siltite. Sides, bottom and lid?

It wouldn't turn the whole thing cloudy - just where it contacts, right? What I have in mind (and what I think he has in mind) would be a lexan piece on the inside of an ammo can with a smaller hole cut in the side so the lexan has a nice overlap over the metal.

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Careful what kind of glue or sealant you use wiith the Lexan. Any nastey solvents in it will cloud the plastic and you'll no longer have a clear box. At work we cement lexan together with Methylene Chloride. Case-way SC325 is a good choice. Devon Siltite silicone sealant will do the sealing job. The glue won't bond to metal though. I'm guessing the framework idea will be the best bet. Perhaps leave most of the ammo box intact and install a couple of picture windows in it. Gasket them with the Siltite. Sides, bottom and lid?

It wouldn't turn the whole thing cloudy - just where it contacts, right? What I have in mind (and what I think he has in mind) would be a lexan piece on the inside of an ammo can with a smaller hole cut in the side so the lexan has a nice overlap over the metal.

Actually, yes, the fumes from certain cyanoacrylate glues are enough to cloud the entire piece.

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I know that umc is working on the exact same thing, might wanna touch base with him.

No kidding, I was wondering where this great idea came from. :)

 

I have everything figured out with the exception of the best 'glue' to use. I've experimented with a couple without much luck and have ideas of others from the other thread where I brought this up. I'll post back when I get a chance to try them.

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I would suggest a "floating panel" the same idea wood workers use for cabinet doors. When the wood panel expands due to changes in humidity it dosen't break since the design allows for expansion/contraction. Somebody already mentioned that the lexan or other plastic will have a different coefficient of linear expansion than the metal can. By dadoing the lexan to fit the hole then fixing another piece on the inside you allow it to expand and contract independantly of the can. The seal would be byutle (sp?) caulk which stays flexiable in any temp extrem, they use it to caulk metal windows into wood frames for that very reason.

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bons,

 

that is nice and the 26.20 isn't killer like the 45-50 as someone mentioned earlier for an otter box. Still for something to be left out in the middle of nowhere waiting for someone to steal it may be a bit steep still.

 

I may just have to buy one just for the heck of it though. :)

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I would suggest a "floating panel" the same idea wood workers use for cabinet doors. When the wood panel expands due to changes in humidity it dosen't break since the design allows for expansion/contraction. Somebody already mentioned that the lexan or other plastic will have a different coefficient of linear expansion than the metal can. By dadoing the lexan to fit the hole then fixing another piece on the inside you allow it to expand and contract independantly of the can. The seal would be byutle (sp?) caulk which stays flexiable in any temp extrem, they use it to caulk metal windows into wood frames for that very reason.

Now there is a mind of a craftsman! Good idea, but can you say that with an accent like Norm Abrams? LOL!

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Well, if I was on the bomb-squad, I know I'd be blowing up stuff right and left!! Pyrotechnics are COOL!

 

Yes, pyrotechnics are cool. However, when most people see a bomb technician 'blow up' a suspect package they typcially use a disrupter. A disrupter is basically a high powered water, squirt-gun. The purpose of this disrupter is to attempt to blast the suspect package into as many pieces as possible without causing it to explode, that is if it were a real bomb. These disrupters aka water cannons often use very simple things such as unlubricated condoms to hold the water inside the cannon before it is fired at the suspect package. Anyways, I just thought I would clear-up some of the misconceptions of 'blowing up' packages, since I have seen my share of packages blasted with these high powered water cannons. Happy caching!

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Re: Otterboxes.

 

They are nice. I have a small one for the occassional times I go white water rafting. Rugged and waterproof. However I agree with umc -- a tad expensive to leave out in the woods. Guess I'm just a cheap SOB. :)

 

The prices on ebay are not too bad. A limited selection though.

 

BTW: Great ideas coming out of this topic. The floating panel is interesting although, obviously, more complex than simple glue. The 3M glue could be useful. And those are just some of the neat ideas!

Edited by RPW
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Actually, yes, the fumes from certain cyanoacrylate glues are enough to cloud the entire piece.

 

Yes, that is true and why cyanacrylate is often used for developing latent finger prints in areas such as vehicles and other similar sized areas. Basically, the glue is heated and the fumes stick to the prints making them easier to lift for processing. Happy caching!

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I would suggest a "floating panel" the same idea wood workers use for cabinet doors. When the  wood panel expands due to changes in humidity it dosen't break since the design allows for expansion/contraction. Somebody already mentioned that the lexan or other plastic will have a different coefficient of linear expansion than the metal can. By dadoing the lexan to fit the hole then fixing another piece on the inside you allow it to expand and contract independantly of the can. The seal would be byutle (sp?) caulk which stays flexiable in any temp extrem, they use it to caulk metal windows into wood frames for that very reason.

Now there is a mind of a craftsman! Good idea, but can you say that with an accent like Norm Abrams? LOL!

Actualee Norm wouldn't have made the mistake of saying dado, it would really be a rabbit. The whole ideaer would be in inverse of a standard kitchen cabinet dour.

Thast as close as I can get in text, I've been told I kind of look like Norm.

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Failure!

 

I tried to make a hybrid lexan & ammo box this weekend without success. The lexan just did not stand up well to the waves in metal. Some of the wavy curses were caused by my sawing holes in the metal ammo box -- although I tried to hammer these flat -- and some were caused by the stress of closing and opening the box. The lexan eventually cracked on me.

 

Sometimes when a person embarks on a project they either screw up badly the first time around or figure ways to make the project easier and, in either case, are anxious to make a second attempt. Not this time. I think that the hybrid box is beyond my skill level. I might try the "floating panel" idea but this is going to take a bit of work and so I will have to set aside another weekend in the distant future. Fortunately the cost was not too bad -- $4.40 for the ammo box and $5.50 for the plastic.

 

I hope that 'umc' has better success. As for me those Otterboxes are looking better. :mad:

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Failure!

 

I tried to make a hybrid lexan & ammo box this weekend without success.  The lexan just did not stand up well to the waves in metal.  Some of the wavy curses were caused by my sawing holes in the metal ammo box -- although I tried to hammer these flat -- and some were caused by the stress of closing and opening the box.  The lexan eventually cracked on me.

 

Sometimes when a person embarks on a project they either screw up badly the first time around or figure ways to make the project easier and, in either case, are anxious to make a second attempt.  Not this time.  I think that the hybrid box is beyond my skill level.  I might try the "floating panel" idea but this is going to take a bit of work and so I will have to set aside another weekend in the distant future.  Fortunately the cost was not too bad -- $4.40 for the ammo box and $5.50 for the plastic.

 

I hope that 'umc' has better success.  As for me those Otterboxes are looking better. :mad:

I applaud you for trying and thank you for sharing your research. :mad:

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That makes me think. Outside temps range from 0 to 100 in this area during the course of a year. The metal and the lexan are probably going to react very differently to that and the method used to fasten the two together and waterproof them would have to deal with that. I'm thinking that a big rubber gasket and some bolts might be a better solution than some form of adhesive.

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That makes me think. Outside temps range from 0 to 100 in this area during the course of a year. The metal and the lexan are probably going to react very differently to that and the method used to fasten the two together and waterproof them would have to deal with that. I'm thinking that a big rubber gasket and some bolts might be a better solution than some form of adhesive.

Good point.

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If it were me, I'd reinforce any opening cut into the ammo box with a steel frame welded around the edge of the opening. The latches on those things exert a fair bit of pressure on the structure of the box. Make the frame with a bolt pattern and a matching frame to sandwich a lexan panel in between.Use rubber weatherstripping between the lexan and inner frame to make it watertight.

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You can make an ALL clear Ammo box style container out of acrylic, using the same techniques used to make acrylic fishtanks. The closing top uses the same style pin and clasp closure as the ammo can. the trouble is....The resulting box will of cost you close to $100

 

what makes the AMMO can so very ideal besides being very rugged, is it's CHEAP!

 

if you want a rugged clear box and money's isn't a worry look into some of teh older UNDERWATER camera housings...But it's more money than I would want to spend for a cache container...

 

good luck....

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