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Are The Forums A Hostile Place?


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Over here in this thread the topic starter made this comment:

This forum has really become a hostile place.

 

Moderator, may I suggest closing this topic since I have not received any bit of sympathetic advice I may use! Only ANGER!!

Wow! That's quite a statement, considering the topic began with this:

I got a stubborn reviewer (Hemlock) who after accepting a bunch of my caches, all of sudden, decided that he doesn't like the new virtual I've left.

(If you read the other thread now, you'll see that the topic starter added a new line to the beginning to make it appear less-confrontational)

 

I've been on these forums for quite some time and have posted a few times here and there (ok, everywhere, all the time). The most dividing topic I've seen here is virtual cache approval. Someone submits a virtual, it is denied by the approver with comments on how to get it approved, the virtual-owner then comes to the forums and slams the approver for not approving it. 9 times out of 10 that owner has not replied to the cache approver's comments through email.

 

In this particular case, the virtual owner is so dead set on placing a virtual instead of a traditional or multicache that he comes to the forums looking for people to rally to his cause and get the virtual approved.

I find nothing wrong with soliciting opinions from others in this forum. You will usually get either a few "yes" replies and a bunch of "no's" or a few "no's" and a bunch of "yes" replies. That's how public opinion works. Not everyone agrees with everything you say.

When you begin a thread in a hostile manner and continue in that fashion, don't expect anyone to join your cause. Those people have already left the building.

 

Several attempts were made by other members to show that it would be possible to place a traditional cache near the location of the plaque. Since the plaque is at the top of a mountain at a ski area, it could be used to start a multi where you ski to the bottom to find the container. It would be much easier to maintain a physical cache this way, and much easier for cachers to sign the logbook at the bottom of the mountain than at the top.

 

My question is this, there are guidelines that have developed over the few short years that Geocaching has been in existence. Those guidelines are easily available to read through (there's even a link from the "hide a cache" page). You check a box saying you have read the guidelines before you are allowed to submit a cache. Why then, would you submit a cache that is clearly against the guidelines? Are you hoping the approver won't notice? They have a job to do. You can make it easy by following the guidelines, or make it hard by doing it your own way. When others try and point out what the guidelines are, why would you say that they are being hostile? Why should they be sympathetic of your plight when you weren't following directions in the first place?

 

I know, that's more than one question. Some people like giving lots of answers, asked for or not :D

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Are the forums hostile? SHUT UP, quit posting this crap!

 

LOL! JUST KIDDING! :D

 

As for why people try to hide caches that probably won't be approved, I guess they think that their idea is so fascinating and unique, the approver will jump at the chance to approve it. Maybe they think the rules don't apply to them because their cache is so darn COOL! Maybe the don't read the guidelines, maybe they don't care and think if they have found 5 caches, they have a RIGHT to place a cache anywhere they please.

 

Personally, I think that if a cache isn't approved, work with the approver to make it work. There is no need for nasty emails or posting in the forums that your admin sucks. Just WORK with the approver and most of the time, the problem can be solved and you will get approved.

 

I also think a lot of people don't know that admins VOLUNTEER their time to approve caches. They have jobs, families, caches to find, etc (just like the rest of us). They don't sit in front of their computer all day just waiting for YOUR cache to show up in the approval queue.

 

Sheesh! Give the admins a break! They are human, just like you (well, most of you

:D ). Don't start screaming at them as soon as they have questions about your cache!

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"Why then, would you submit a cache that is clearly against the guidelines?"

 

Because they didn't read the guidelines, just checked the box.

 

I know that I read them, but didn't study them. I have an idea of what's allowed, and what's not, but if you asked me a specific, I wouldn't be able to answer. However, if I place one and it's not approved, I'm not going to complain that it wasn't approved. I may complain that I don't think that particular guideline is very good, but if I don't follow the rules, I've got nobody to be mad at except me.

 

F_M

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Compared to the e-mail people send me after they read my posts, the forums aren't even remotely hostile.

 

I think there are a some people in this world not used to not getting their way and they never learned how to deal with it in an effective manner. Unfortunately, they tend to demand lots of attention when that happens. I suspect that through major portions of their lives people simply gave in to them in an effort to avoid paying any attention to them. I kind of feel sorry for them if that's true.

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I also think a lot of people don't know that admins VOLUNTEER their time to approve caches. They have jobs, families, caches to find, etc (just like the rest of us). They don't sit in front of their computer all day just waiting for YOUR cache to show up in the approval queue.

You're dadgum right! I sent a PM and and email to CO_Admin after i submitted my event cache. It still took him a whole hour to "get to it" :D

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In this particular case, the virtual owner is so dead set on placing a virtual instead of a traditional or multicache that he comes to the forums looking for people to rally to his cause and get the virtual approved.

This stuff wouldnt happen if there were not so heinous a restriction on virtuals. But as far as approval goes its a closed issue falling on deaf ears.

 

The situation makes its self worse when some cant seperate the arguement from the attitude.

 

As to the question at hand....The forums are mostly.......a silly place...

They can be hostile. The issue of finds verses experience came up in the aforementioned thread too. The semi experienced thread starter was unaware of the whole approver account thing. A better experience index in the forums would be find count divided by post count! :D

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Hostility is in the eye of the beholder. I just ignore the ranting threads. I have enough stress in my life without worrying about Mods closing threads, virtuals not being approved or who's account is a sock puppet.

 

Cache,post , do whatever makes you happy.

 

Live and let live.

 

Turn the other cheek.

 

:D

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Having read the thread in question, I agree. They were trying to solicit support from the community. When it wasn't forth comming they turned hostile.

 

Another prospective on the hostility issue. You may notice I'm not really bashfull, but I've been lurking from Dec '02 til Nov '03. I waited until I had almost 100 caches before I started posting. Why? I had decided going into this forum with 5 cache finds would be like jumping into the shark tank wearing London Broil after shave. Lately things have been better but people are still a little harsh on noobs who post outside the getting started area. (Heck they may not even understand the concept of areas.)

 

Not every one understands that relationships develop in this environment. What I say in reply to one person might not be okay to another. I know folks like Sparkey and GPSaxophone banter, from the outside looking in it may not appear that way. Remember this may be the first exposure some people have to the internet forum. I know most of my forum experience has been through e-mail groups, not the same.

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I just read that thread, and I agree that a lot of people who get furious with the forums bring it on themselves. I'd say most of the hostility here stems from people not playing by the established rules (it's particularly funny when someone posts angrily like that while at the same time telling everyone else to "relax, it's just a game"). That said, I've noticed a lot more of this lately, and that contributes to a more hostile scene overall. If every third topic is a complaint about someone or something, it gets a lot less pleasant here in a hurry. I haven't had the time to follow the boards as much as I used to, and from what I do get to see, I'm not entirely sorry about that.

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Thanks Sax :D . Great topic :D . I myself started with a Virtual for my first hide fully thinking it would get denied. Same with my subsequent two hides. Each time I submitted I just figured I would have to do more looking and thinking if they got denied. Lucky for me all three were approved and with the Virtual it required answering some questions in a couple of email request by the reviewer. I imagine one day I will loose on one and but no big deal since it is not like I have to hide them, it’s just somewhat like the challenge of finding them.

 

Are the forums hostile? Not for the most part. As for the few :D I have no use for them as it appears most of the others do not either as based on the followups that many post.

 

I have been trying to also find ways to post some good natured stuff to the forums and try to redirect from the hostiles but the ideas are a bit slow to materialize.

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In this particular case, the virtual owner is so dead set on placing a virtual instead of a traditional or multicache that he comes to the forums looking for people to rally to his cause and get the virtual approved.

This stuff wouldnt happen if there were not so heinous a restriction on virtuals. But as far as approval goes its a closed issue falling on deaf ears.

I don't want this thread to become a "we should change the guidelines on virtuals" debate, so I'll leave this comment alone.

The issue of finds verses experience came up in the aforementioned thread too.

Yes, If I only had 22 finds I wouldn't expect someone to come to me for answers. It doesn't mean I can't answer them, but someone with 200, 500, or 1000 finds might have more or better information.

A better experience index in the forums would be find count divided by post count! :D

I realize your comment is said in jest, but some people run out of caches in their area. Are they supposed to stop posting in the forums unless they can afford to travel long distances to keep finding caches?

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A better experience index in the forums would be find count divided by post count! :D

I realize your comment is said in jest, but some people run out of caches in their area. Are they supposed to stop posting in the forums unless they can afford to travel long distances to keep finding caches?

[/color]

ah......YES :D

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The forums are hostile, silly, funny, serious, and annoying rolled up into one big mess. People with different opinions clash, People can agree to disagree, and some people stay out of issues. Some people are "Geosnobs", meaning they attack a person's post because they don't agree with what he/she posted or think it's just a bunch of crap because it has been talked about many times before. There are the newbies who post about a topic that has been done to death or talk about a topic in the wrong forum. There are the rebellers, the suck-ups, and those who take no sides. Some people like to post funny topics and offbeat humor, while others like to be serious about the issues. Some people think the forums are fun and gives them the opportunity to talk about geocaching with other enthusiests, while others think it's a hostile place and try to stay away. Some love the mods and others hate them.

 

People are different! They have different opinions and views. You're going to get fights and forum wars. You're going to have clashes between the mods and the rebellers. Face facts everybody! Everyone thinks their view is the best and that will never change.

 

'Nuff Said, Radman OUT DA HOUSE!

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I also think a lot of people don't know that admins VOLUNTEER their time to approve caches. They have jobs, families, caches to find, etc (just like the rest of us). They don't sit in front of their computer all day just waiting for YOUR cache to show up in the approval queue.

You're dadgum right! I sent a PM and and email to CO_Admin after i submitted my event cache. It still took him a whole hour to "get to it" :D

It took a bit of time on my recent hide for approval. Long enough I was sure the email was a NO :D when I got it and that it would say it was to sensitive an area or something, like I did something wrong. As you can see here I worried for nothing My Longest Approval Wait. In the long run I suspect that my approver was more than anything either swamped with request, out caching or out of town.

 

By the way if you are out there Hemlock. Thanks :D

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Hostility is the nature of the beast...

I've been a member of MANY online groups that had/have message boards and believe me, when there is an 'open forum' you tend to get wildly differing points of view. And that is putting it mildly.

I lean towards the moderate side. That is, you can count on me to not follow any EXTREME points of view.

However, there are always going to be some folks who want to generate controversy (aka a fight). So I feel it's best just to give some posts a wide berth and get along with the general subject of whatever thread...

 

My 100% recyclable point of view. :D

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It took a bit of time on my recent hide for approval. Long enough I was sure the email was a NO :D when I got it and that it would say it was to sensitive an area or something, like I did something wrong. As you can see here I worried for nothing My Longest Approval Wait. In the long run I suspect that my approver was more than anything either swamped with request, out caching or out of town.

 

By the way if you are out there Hemlock. Thanks :D

Two things about your cache:

 

1. It is identical to the one in the other thread (fallen hero marker) except that yours is a traditional cache. I had to go back and re-read it to see that you placed an ammo can nearby.

 

2. "This cache is at an elevation of 2100 feet" sounds so funny to me. Only in California would someone have to worry about posting such a low elevation on a cache page. When we have a cache at a high elevation, we mean at 6000 feet or higher! :D

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Yes. I do have an education. A Master's, a Bachelor's, and 2 Associate's degrees. As someone else already said, those aren't worth the paper they're printed on if you can't communicate in a public forum like an adult. Oh, and no, I can't read. I just try to guess what all those little letters are, then just slap around on the keyboard to make a reply.

 

Yes, I have a life. I'm a cat. I have 9 of them. Would you like to borrow one?"

 

I for one am sick of this lying drenched cat! A college degree??? Give me a break! I've had to read his drivel since Thanksgiving. Everyone worth his salt knows cats can't go to college!!!! Especially wet ones. How many keyboards have you shorted out Morris? Dripping wet paws and all! Come to think of it...I've had my share of "wet cats" back in college! :D

 

Just messing with ya fuzzy! :D How's that for hostile?

 

PS. Gotta love that avatar! :D

 

Spelling edit.

Edited by Spzzmoose
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I'll just give my answer to the thread question without rehashing the previous thread. Lord knows I started out trying to be helpful there and then got tempted to post an un-Carleen rant! I'm over that now and happily drinking a beer though. :D

 

Are the forums a hostile place?

 

Sometimes yes, depending on your view. I think there is always a mix of people who fit one of these examples (I'm sure there are more): (1) rant without thinking; (2) make sarcastic comments without thinking how those will read; (3) take blunt or obviously sarcastic comments too seriously; (4) like to flame people or troll for fun; (5) post negative thoughts without explanation; (6) get annoyed if anyone disagrees with them; (7) always disagree with others; (8) can't consider other views; (9) are just plain outspoken in a blunt manner, which isn't bad but can be misread (see #3 above), and; (10) don't read, consider and answer opposing questions when/before posting.

 

Sometimes no, depending on your view. I also think there is always a mix of people who fit one of these examples (I'm sure there are more): (1) make helpful posts to newbies; (2) can see sarcasm and take a joke; (3) argue thoughtfully and intelligently; (4) don't anger or take offense easily; (5) know when to stay silent if angry; (6) don't take comments personally; (7) ignore personal attacks; (8) are funny; (9) are overall friendly, maybe even to a fault and; (10) understand that hostility happens.

 

In many cases, I think the qualities in any given person, sometimes viewed as "hostile" and sometimes viewed as "nice," overlap. I put those terms in quotes because of that. It takes alot of complex things to define a person, much less a forum. Also, many of the traits are not always "hostile" or "nice." For example, a person can be "hostile" through a "nice" facade (often by employing very subtle sarcasm), just as a person can intend a funny "nice" comment and then be viewed as hostile (often also by employing very subtle sarcasm). In each case the comment might be subtle sarcasm but the hypothetical authors had different intentions. In each case the sarcasm could also be read wrong by others. A person might think it was joke when it was not, or they might get angry over a joke.

 

In most cases a person has characteristics of something in both camps at various times.

That is called "being human." Only very few are always "hostile" or always "nice." Would we really want an all "nice" or all "hostile" forum anyway?

 

So the answer is the forums are made of people. They are what they are. Neither "hostile" nor "nice."

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(fallen hero marker)

What thread was that one in? I can't seem to locate it.

 

If it is going to stir up trouble disregard.

Try the link I used in the start of this thread

Thanks. Mine is too far out and remote to not have a container. In fact it could have been left in the open and not a be a problem. Never would have tried for Virtual here. Would have hiked, saw and left. In fact the only reason ammo can is there is we will be visiting often and my brother wanted to place one.

 

Oddly enough Hemlock is mentioned in the thread you reference and also approved mine. Should have payed more attention.

Edited by Cache Viking
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OK. I'm trying to get caught up here. I'm also trying to catch my breath from laughing at this guy so much. What a tool. I'm only sorry I wasn't here earlier to interject my own thoughts. Not that it was necessary. You guys did a wonderful job. To answer your question Sax, Yes the forums can be hostile at times. But it seems in this case it was 100% warranted.

 

That being said I give his rant a 7.5. I would have given him more, but he really gave me no reason to sympathize with him.

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I want to say that Radman, who I think has been accused of "hostility" before (but correct me if I am wrong), s :D

Nah you're right, I have been hostile before. But I feel that my way is right, and other people feel their way is right. We're probably never going to change any of that and I've learned not to fight it anymore and just post what I think and not care what everybody else thinks or posts! Unless it really makes me angry and I react in a very violent way! :D

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Can't we all just get along?

I give that a 1 for absurdity, another cause you knew it, another cause someone will agree, another cause most people won't get that you get it, another for posting it here, another cause you got me to quote it, and one more cause it's a non rant in a post about rants. But that's just me.

 

So that's a 7, but hey, these points are like WMD in Iraq. They just don't matter, nobody is left who can use them.

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In this particular case, the virtual owner is so dead set on placing a virtual instead of a traditional or multicache that he comes to the forums looking for people to rally to his cause and get the virtual approved.

This stuff wouldnt happen if there were not so heinous a restriction on virtuals. But as far as approval goes its a closed issue falling on deaf ears.

I don't want this thread to become a "we should change the guidelines on virtuals" debate, so I'll leave this comment alone.

The issue of finds verses experience came up in the aforementioned thread too.

Yes, If I only had 22 finds I wouldn't expect someone to come to me for answers. It doesn't mean I can't answer them, but someone with 200, 500, or 1000 finds might have more or better information.

A better experience index in the forums would be find count divided by post count! :D

I realize your comment is said in jest, but some people run out of caches in their area. Are they supposed to stop posting in the forums unless they can afford to travel long distances to keep finding caches?

I like the way you answer each part of the quote.

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I've percieved hostility in the forums. I think Carleenp summed it up well in her post. There is a lot of subtle sarcasm and people who may be too blunt or sarcastic in their posts. And the reader's perception of that sarcasm and bluntness does indeed have a lot to do with how hostile a post appears to them. I am a little too quick to be angered by hostile replies to my posts, and have gotten PM's and email abut some of the responses I've made. Then again, the way I see it is if someone feels the need to publicly attack someone else, then they ought to deal with a public response in kind. I often wonder why people can't bring themselves to disagree in a diplomatic fashion. It's almost a game to see how deep beneath the layers of sarcasm they can bury their true intent.

I never felt the need to respond to a post privately. (Although I have responded to PM's and emails.) The fact is, some people are simply incapable of defending their position, and don't have the tools to do so without employing personal ridicule and attacks. I admire those forum members who can disagree thoughtfully and politely. It takes a lot more mastery of the language to do that, than to be sarcastic. :D

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2. "This cache is at an elevation of 2100 feet" sounds so funny to me. Only in California would someone have to worry about posting such a low elevation on a cache page. When we have a cache at a high elevation, we mean at 6000 feet or higher!

Not only California. One of mine is at 1090 ft, the highest point in the county. I've long suspected that glaciers are biased against Michigan cachers. If we don't get some higher elevations soon, I'm taking my caches to another state.

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The fact is, some people are simply incapable of defending their position, and don't have the tools to do so without employing personal ridicule and attacks. I admire those forum members who can disagree thoughtfully and politely. It takes a lot more mastery of the language to do that, than to be sarcastic.

 

No quicker way to lose all respect than by doing this. I've read a lot of debates in here that were heated, controversial, and yet very polite, only to see one person whose thoughts and ideas were beginning to make sense blow themselves out of the water and reality by resorting to personal attacks. And I've seen others who may make one statement in disagreement, then for anyone afterwards who disagrees, they will slam, slap, whack, flame, and attack. Not at all a good way to make your point.

 

Thanks for saying it better than I could, Bloencustoms..... :D

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2. "This cache is at an elevation of 2100 feet" sounds so funny to me. Only in California would someone have to worry about posting such a low elevation on a cache page. When we have a cache at a high elevation, we mean at 6000 feet or higher!

Not only California. One of mine is at 1090 ft, the highest point in the county. I've long suspected that glaciers are biased against Michigan cachers. If we don't get some higher elevations soon, I'm taking my caches to another state.

I like hiking alot and was thinking of placing one further back into the backcountry than this one and higher up as we do have more elevation that can be gained. Problem is that I know way too many people around here that think a 1000 foot elevation gain is too much :D . This is evidenced by the fact that the Cache in reference has been in place for a week now with no FTF and it is only 2 miles in a 1000 feet up and I provide coordinates to the trail head with parking. I am looking forward to trying for some I have scoped out in the Sierras where I will have to do some long walking and climbing. One of my favorite day hikes is Yosemite Valley Floor to top of Half Dome. You are looking at 8.5 miles one way with at least a 5000 foot gain. To bad a cache cant be stashed in one of the big cracks on top.

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In this particular case, the virtual owner is so dead set on placing a virtual instead of a traditional or multicache that he comes to the forums looking for people to rally to his cause and get the virtual approved.

This stuff wouldnt happen if there were not so heinous a restriction on virtuals. But as far as approval goes its a closed issue falling on deaf ears.

I don't want this thread to become a "we should change the guidelines on virtuals" debate, so I'll leave this comment alone.

The issue of finds verses experience came up in the aforementioned thread too.

Yes, If I only had 22 finds I wouldn't expect someone to come to me for answers. It doesn't mean I can't answer them, but someone with 200, 500, or 1000 finds might have more or better information.

A better experience index in the forums would be find count divided by post count! :blink:

I realize your comment is said in jest, but some people run out of caches in their area. Are they supposed to stop posting in the forums unless they can afford to travel long distances to keep finding caches?

I like the way you answer each part of the quote.

I did that in your thread also, but you didn't respond to it.

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The forums sometimes do get hostile. It usually is some disagreement between a couple of cachers that goes public.

 

The thread that prompted this one is the other type we see- why can't I not follow the rules and get my way type threads. There's been some very good comments about this here so I don't have a lot to add.

 

Oh, then there are those Geocides, that lead to condescending comments. I guess the people starting the threads announcing Geocide and calling out the mods need to think twice before posting, and then think about it one more time.

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I have on occasion, taken an issue to PM or e-mail. Sometimes someone says something so mind numbingly stupid or offensive my head explodes. When this happens my comments are better handled privately. This doesn't mean I can't defend my position. I simply feel the forums would not be a proper place to discuss it. PMs probably contain the most serious and thought out comments of my brief forum career. Sorry to say it, but most of you miss out on my best stuff. :blink: I know, the margin is almost unimaginable and I am probably full of s***. You got a problem with that? Hu? DO YA?! :D

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