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What The @#$!?


WaldenRun

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OK, taking a deep breath...

 

My newest cache was posted overnight. In the description, I explained that the small piece of conservation land is surrounded by private homes. I went on to plainly state (in red) the restriction of "Daylight hours ONLY".

 

Imagine the blood rising in my face when I saw this log in the morning:

 

"First finders for me - Even though WR specified this as a daylight only cache, I made a trip out in the early morning darkness and found without much difficulty."

 

I have not yet taken the obvious step in dealing with that log. I wanted to pass this by the cooler(?) heads that peruse these forums. If I leave that log, others may feel empowered to violate the rules of the cache. The land trust that owns the property was gracious in approving placement of a cache here. Geocaching is sure to earn a black eye if the abutters start complaining about flashlights in their backyards.

 

What would YOU do?

 

-WR

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I'd say it's not that much of a problem......

 

I mean he already has the first finders prize doesn't he, so maybe, turn his find into a note or something, but make another note yourseklf stating again that no night caches...

 

This person was probably just after a FTF and it may not be a major issue all the time, but enforce your rules if it happens again, and be consistent...

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Hmm... A toughie.

 

Does the piece of land where the cache is have any posted hours? Say if my grandma, who has no idea what a GPS is, came to the piece of land at 2AM and wanted to stroll through is there any signage that would stop her?

 

Either way, it was very inconsiderate of the person to do that. :D

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What would YOU do?

 

Chuckle.

 

But really, it's a small issue, if it is even one at all. I didn't read anything about a flashlight being used, I'm guessing you assumed that. Either way, the cache survived and there will not likely be a lot of people finding it that way.

 

EDIT: Typo

Edited by Criminal
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Parks usually close at dusk or 10 pm, but as long as you don't get caught you're allowed to be there. :D

 

90% of the finders will probably respect your daylight hours request. The FTF is a bit different, but he should probably not say what he did in the log. Maybe ask him to say "I got up at the crack of dawn to be FTF at this one" or something like that.

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This person was probably just after a FTF and it may not be a major issue all the time...

Oh, he made an inappropriate night attempt (with flashlight) at ANOTHER cache of mine. His log:

 

"After searching for about 15 min, I was paid a visit by 2 college security cruisers and 1 Framingham police cruiser. After asking me the usual questions such as who am I and what am I doing, they told me that this was the property of the college and asked me to leave or they would charge me with trespassing."

 

Next day:

 

"Made another visit in the daylight and found the cache within minutes."

 

-WR

Edited by WaldenRun
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The cacher your referring to has his avatar title set to: "Professional Idiot"

 

I think that probably explains it all.

True enough.

 

I simply sent him a note asking him to remove the stuff about finding it in the dark. As long as he follows through on my request, he can keep his ill-gotten find.

 

-WR

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The cacher your referring to has his avatar title set to:  "Professional Idiot"

 

I think that probably explains it all.

True enough.

 

I simply sent him a note asking him to remove the stuff about finding it in the dark. As long as he follows through on my request, he can keep his ill-gotten find.

 

-WR

On your next hide, include a note to the approver to activate the cache in the morning instead of in the evening. That way someone is bound to see the new cache come up when it is still light outside and you won't have to worry so much about this guy.

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I had something similar happen. I have a cache placed with permission on land owned by Aubudon Nebraska. I stated the limited hours prominently in the cache page. A few times, people showed up off hours, but someone was there and let them search anyway. OK there. But another time, a person went in after dark and bushwacked from the road. I was a little annoyed because I don't want Audubon to become concerned and ask me to remove the cache. Fortunately though, they are fairly laid back people there and it doesn't seem to be a common problem. So outside of being prepared to make some serious apologies to them (which I didn't need to do) I ignored it. I have considered making the statement of hours even more explicit though.

Edited by carleenp
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The cacher your referring to has his avatar title set to:  "Professional Idiot"

 

I think that probably explains it all.

True enough.

 

I simply sent him a note asking him to remove the stuff about finding it in the dark. As long as he follows through on my request, he can keep his ill-gotten find.

 

-WR

I agree with this approach. I'd ask him to remove it and explain to him WHY you specifically wrote 'no caching at night'.

 

I don't know if you did that - but that's what I'd have done - not that it matters.

 

southdeltan

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This kinda thing is why I won't place a cache where it has to be restricted beyond the normal park signage.

 

It is also a thing to consider in putting a cache in a residential area- many seekers are going to look like prowlers.

 

Many cachers don't seem to mind trespassing for a find. I guess the chance of going to jail adds to the thrill??? :D

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This person was probably just after a FTF and it may not be a major issue all the time, but enforce your rules if it happens again, and be consistent...

I couldn't disagree with this more, sorry.

 

How can you let this one go and then be consistent with the enforcement????

 

If it specifically says no night time caching, I would delete the log, remove the entry from the log book, and give the next cacher the legitimate FTF.

 

Play by the rules or don't play at all.

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This person was probably just after a FTF and it may not be a major issue all the time, but enforce your rules if it happens again, and be consistent...

I couldn't disagree with this more, sorry.

 

How can you let this one go and then be consistent with the enforcement????

 

If it specifically says no night time caching, I would delete the log, remove the entry from the log book, and give the next cacher the legitimate FTF.

 

Play by the rules or don't play at all.

Guess when I can taste blood it's time to stop biting my tongue. I agree with Kealia, here. Anything that one cacher does that endangers the pre-authorized placement of a cache such as this, endangers the entire game. So next, are we supposed to go ahead and ...oh, I'm not even gonna get that started. Plain and simple as Kealia said, "Play by the rules".........

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Alright. this is what you do. First you get a big scary monkey costume, or something close to it. Then you make another cache. Make it a "daytime only cache". Then you go out and wait by the cache that night. When that guy comes to find it in the dark, you start making the most horrible noises you can, and come crashing out of the bushes. Then, maybe he will start to think twice about going at night. :D

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Perhaps the only true solution is to choose a cache site that can be accessed at all hours. I know this isn't the case with most parks, but places like that do exist. I placed a night cache, and asked that cachers only attempt to find it at night. Of course, within a few weeks, someone found it during the day. Not that there is a real problem with that. It doesn't make the cache any less challenging, but I feel that the cacher deprived themselves of the full experience of the cache. A subsequent log from someone who found it at night stated that they believed the experience was better than if they had gone during the day.

The whole point of this is that when you place a cache, you have to accept that people will make their own decisions about when they choose to look for it.

You really only have a couple of options. You could state very clearly on hte page the reasons why you don't wish people to visit the cache at certain times, and hope they don't. You can delete finds of cachers that go at inappropriate times. (This will make you unpopular.) Or you can choose an area that will support visitation at all hours. This is probably the best choice, as cachers are a diverse group, and some of them might only be able to cache at night due to their work schedule. And of course, the coveted FTF log is a tantalizing motive for visiting a cache before the sun comes up.

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Figured I'd weigh in...well, since it's a MO cache, I can't read the wording to agree or disagree with whether they were wrong to log it when they did.

 

But "knowing" WR like I do...ok, so I don't really know the man, but we are in the same vicinity and he's our go-getter guy for MA, etc....I'd assume that this FTFer was over-eager. Consequences? Well, a stern e-mail would be a starter. Hopefully this was honestly FTF Fever going overboard which led him to the lack of judgement..a little private finger wagging might be all it needs. But if you want a larger effect next time, you might need to be more explicit in the cache description ("no night finds, permission is only given for the day, any finds i can determine came from a night find will be permanantly deleted and no future find for this cache allowed...etc etc").

 

It's not as big as a mountain, but more than a mole-hill.

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Parks usually close at dusk or 10 pm, but as long as you don't get caught you're allowed to be there. :D

That's quite a profound statement. :D , altho not very responsible, particularly for an approver.

So if you are caught then you're not allowed to be there? I hope you aren't advocating do it until you get caught. Some cacher could end up with a tresspassing charge and trying to explain to a judge that "long as you don't get caught you're allowed to be there".

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OK a couple of points.

 

1. I will fully admit that I love trying for FTF's. Theres something thrilling for me trying to be the first.

 

2. Like most people, I work all day. 6AM to 6PM so that night time hours are the only times that I can go. Unless of course a cache is placed close enough to my work where I can find it during lunch.

 

I do not apologize for my caching techniques. Everyone has there own style and way of doing it. This is mine. If you want to delete my online logs, go ahead.

 

I go caching because I find it enjoyable, not for the numbers. I would be just as happy finding caches and never logging them online.

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I have to agree with wavehopper! Some people have limited times to get out and cache. I personally have aquired caches at improper times also! Only because it is there to find, and it is the only time that I have. So many people want to make the rules up as they go, just go with the flow. Start thinking a little harder where your caches are because not everyone is on the same schedule. Again, thats my opionion, and everyone else has there own.

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2. Like most people, I work all day. 6AM to 6PM so that night time hours are the only times that I can go. Unless of course a cache is placed close enough to my work where I can find it during lunch.

Good point WH. Thanks for updating the log in question here.

 

Oh yeah - Do you have Wednesdays off? I could have sworn I saw your car in the parking lot for this cache around 8:30 AM.

 

-WR

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I placed a micro in a park well used for other nefarious purposes.

 

In my descrption I put "Daytime-Only cache. "

 

Then someone posts:

Got here at 9:30 pm.

<SNIP>

beware of "Mr Happy Badge" if you want to try this one after dark."

 

What's a person to do these days.

I am the cacher that parked in front of the no parking from 10pm - 6am sign at 9:30.

 

I also download over 1000 caches to my gps and palm. I search them when I can. I had my family with me to look at Christmas lights and the view from just north of the first part of the cache location is one of the best views of the city.

 

We were in no violation of city, park, county or state laws. My thought was that Dusty was trying to keep people out of the park during the posted park closed hours as he had gone through a great deal of work to get approval.

 

"Mr Happy Badge" was definatly overstepping his bounds. I later called dispatch to complain about how he handled the situation and was informed that I wasn't the first to call about the same instance and that I was correct that it was handled poorly.

 

There is a difference with placing a daylight only cache in the middle of a residencial area and asking that it not be attempted after dark to avoid disturbing the neighbors and placing it in a public park, senic overlook.

 

For what it is worth I have meet Dusty and consider him a GeoFriend and intend this post only to explain why my family and I searched this cache.

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This person was probably just after a FTF and it may not be a major issue all the time, but enforce your rules if it happens again, and be consistent...

I couldn't disagree with this more, sorry.

 

How can you let this one go and then be consistent with the enforcement????

 

If it specifically says no night time caching, I would delete the log, remove the entry from the log book, and give the next cacher the legitimate FTF.

 

Play by the rules or don't play at all.

Well, he already has the First Finders prize, so what good would just deleting one of his finds really do, unless he was solely after the count...

 

Anyway, I guess you do need to be consistent, but I dunno..

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Parks usually close at dusk or 10 pm, but as long as you don't get caught you're allowed to be there. :D

That's quite a profound statement. :blink: , altho not very responsible, particularly for an approver.

So if you are caught then you're not allowed to be there? I hope you aren't advocating do it until you get caught. Some cacher could end up with a tresspassing charge and trying to explain to a judge that "long as you don't get caught you're allowed to be there".

My comment was meant as a joke (note the smiley). I would not advocate breaking the rules just to get a cache.

 

I suppose if I really was an approver I wouldn't be able to make silly comments. I would be just like that super-serious purple pony guy :D:D

(Yes, that is meant as a joke also)

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:blink:

WR, I would DELETE the log. They were stupid enough to wave their disrespect for your guidelines regarding this cache. As our public official get more paranoid about people walking around with almanacs and gps units, it just makes it harder for us who do respect whatever rules are set forth. I'm sick of everyone doing whatever they want anytime they want. You play by the rules or you don't play. WR you are in charge, put a stop to it!

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Before anyone deletes another’s find, they should ask themselves a few questions.

 

1. Why did I place this cache?

2. Has there been any tangible damage to the cache?

3. Is the incident in question going to be a regular occurrence?

 

The answer to Q1 is (hopefully) “So that others may have fun”. If your answer was, “To stump the dummy”, “To get a few hides under my belt”, or “As a display of my cleverness”, then you may have hidden the cache for the wrong reasons. If, however, you hid the cache for others to enjoy, then I see no harm done. The log would seem to indicate such.

 

The answer to Q2 in this particular incident, was no. You can argue semantics about what “damage” means all day long and get nowhere. If I parachute in to the park in the middle of the day, the sight may disturb some nearby homeowners. They may even ask you to pull the cache so that it doesn’t happen again. But I have followed the rules. True, not many will do such a thing, so go on to Q3.

 

In this case the answer to Q3 is, of course, no. Hunting any cache in the darkness is only exercised by a few hearty cachers, and almost always for the FTF. There can be only one FTF, so I suspect that for the life of the cache you will most likely see only a couple more night cachers attempting it.

 

To summarize, go find and hide caches in the manner to which you’ve become accustomed. Don’t get bogged down by trivial matters, and certainly not by the rules you’ve imposed. I’m playing for fun. I don’t have as many finds as some, and only a few more than others, but I’m having fun. If the game is not fun because everyone will not play the game your way, you might want to reconsider your participation. It’s all about fun and adventure, have some.

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OK. Rules are rules. The cache owner may establish them for good reasons, or bad. It is his cache.

 

But, what if (Devil's advocate), someone placed a cache with "rules" that it can only be logged at night?

 

Or, a cache turns up stipulating that only women may log it?

 

Maybe one that requires specialized trading items only?

 

What if someone designs a members-only cache and a non member succeeds in finding and logging it?

 

What if I stipulate that my cache can only be logged by people named "Dick?"

 

I suspect that non-Dicks would find and log the cache. And I would have every right to delete their logs. But I wouldn't...I'd just think, if that guy really wants to be a Dick, then OK.

 

It's too bad that some people don't want to play by our rules (some of which are valid and substantiated), but finders will be finders, and owners will be owners. And each owner/finder relationship will have to be dealt with on an individual basis. :blink::D

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OK. Rules are rules. The cache owner may establish them for good reasons, or bad. It is his cache.

 

But, what if (Devil's advocate)...

again, just follow the rules!

 

No need to play devils advocate. WR is as experienced as there is in MA. He set the rules based on his knowledge of the cache site and the surrounding locale. RESPECT the decision, or go find yourself another cache.

 

Very simple, JUST FOLLOW THE RULES!

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A cacher in my area placed a very involved series of caches. On one stage, there was a bus token and instructions to take the bus to the next stage. I emailed the cache owner and told him I didn't take the bus, but I drove the bus route instead. He said it was ok, just don't mention that in my log.

 

Communication with the cache owner can fix all sorts of problems.

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Scottsdale, Arizona owns and manages a 16,600 acre mountain/desert preserve that had maybe a half-dozen geocaches hidden in it when the game was still generally "under the radar". In the summer of 2002, access to the preserve was closed due to fire danger brought on by drought.

 

A then-inexperienced cacher went hunting in the preserve during the closure. His online log said, in effect, "I saw the 'closed' sign but went in anyway". A year later, the city preserve commission cited that log entry when they passed their policy banning all Geocaching within the preserve, repeatedly referring to it as evidence that Geocachers have no respect for rules.

 

Steve

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<snip>But, what if (Devil's advocate), someone placed a cache with "rules" that it can only be logged at night?

</snip>

They are out there.

 

Generally to back up the "rule", there is some gimmick that only works at night.

 

There are probably those that would consider it a greater challenge, in this case, to hunt it in the day time.

 

There will always be those that want to play the game- any game- their way. Since GC is, by necessity, a non-competitive, anyone can play game, there isn't much we cacn do except FICO.

 

(Forget It Cache On)

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A few things to add now that I can see the cache description:

 

Wavehopper was not acting appropriately at all given the information he had. This hide is in a park between a dozen backyards. Pre-6 AM romps behind people's houses is not appropriate at all; FTF or not. If it is dark until 7 AM and dark starting at 5 PM and you have to work 6-6...then I guess you have to wait until the weekend to find a cache that says "Daylight hours only" and shows itself to be internal to a neighborhood block.

 

Not only is it inappropriate to be mulling behind people's homes at that hour, but it also places the cache in greater jeopardy of being muggled.

 

I also think that including Wavehopper in the Bonus for the semi-valuable prize would not be my choice. Since he felt it necessary to find the cache in contrary to the written guideline on the page, then he certainly shouldn't have a chance to profit even further from it.

 

In the future, I hope that wavehopper uses a little more prudence and self-control even if it means missing a FTF because the cache did not fit his schedule.

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You get people like this all the time. I have a cache in a park that bans dogs and asks that users stick to the trails. On my cache page, I ask people to stick to the trails and I have a no dogs allowed icon. There are also "no pets" signs at all park entrances.

 

You won't believe all the logs that say things like "Left the trail and bushwacked to the cache...", or "Came here with the kids and our dog Fluffy". I just hope the park personnel don't read the logs :blink: .

Edited by briansnat
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Cmon now, everybody knows that when you tell someone not to do something, it's gonna be done one way or the other. Someone out there, who knows who, is gonna attempt it. I have not been around the forums lately, exactly for this reason. It has turned into everyday society in many ways. When I came to it, people more willing to help, now more people and less help. More like a Judge and Jury. Hang them!!! Throw them to the dogs. Everyone has to worry about everyone else. Pay attention to your own short comings. Such as hiding a cache where you would have to bother anyone at any time! Come on, who really likes parking on a city street, and walking down a sidewalk lined with houses built the same, looking for a playground with a tupperware bowl in it. Come to the country and see what it's about. And if you have to hunt them at night, have fun!!

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1) It is alright to fudge on the rules if you think that you are the FTF.

1a) If the rules say "Women Only" it is alright to log it as long as you were wearing a dress.

2) If you work during the day it is okay to break the rules.

If you work at night it is okay to break the rules.

If you don't work it is okay to break the rules.

(Please fill in any reason you want.)

3) If you do not like the way that I cache that is tough on you.

I have my own rules and, while they are rather flexible,

I do follow them.

4) No one can hold me responsible for whatever I've done.

You just don't understand. I have good reasons for doing anything I want.

5) Go ahead, delete the log. I don't care. That's why I didn't follow the directions and had to be FTF in the first place.

A scalp is a scalp.

6) I don't have to respect you, or Geocaching, but you must respect me.

7) My time is important. Your time, talent and creativity in placing a cache

means nothing.

8) Don't take it personal. It's only a hobby.

9) My way or the highway!

10) All geocaching glory to the most important me, Me, ME!

Edited by Barnacle Bear
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I think the "rules" are on the geocaching site, and do not forbid night caching. The owner further regulated the hunt time on his page.

 

There are things in life worth getting your panties in a bunch for. This isn’t.

 

But go ahead and delete his log. It's good to make an enemy who knows where your caches are, just ask any of the people who've had to deal with it. Ask Briansnat about dealing with the pirates. Yeah, go ahead and delete.

 

Sheesh

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