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I think I've missed something here.

 

I posted the drop at 8:55. It was 8:58 according to the time log by the time I finished editing the entry to actually SHOW the time.

 

The log states that vds picked up the bug at 9:12 pm. So all of this extensive research was done, he drove to Dumas Bay Centre, raced down to the beach and retrieved the bug in less than 15 minutes.

 

Apparently Captain Kirk and the Enterprise are playing for the North. "Scotty, beam me directly to Dumas Centre!"

 

TL, why would you assume my comment was directed at you, personally?

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Yikes! I'm not home at the moment and won't be until sometime tomorrow so don't have the time to thoroughly read all the posts on this thread!

 

As far as a ruling. Last night Team North contacted me and asked about this issue. I said if they could show that Travis was wrong (there's a first time for everything :rolleyes: ) and it actually was open until 11:00 last night then it would be fine to grab the cache.

 

My wife downloaded my e-mail this morning so I don't have anything they sent me back in response so don't know if there's proof in my e-mail from them.

 

I'll wait until I get home tomorrow to make an official ruling. Until then play as normal. If North was wrong they'll lose the 5 points for the placement.

 

I'm about 1/2 mile from the Dumas Bay Centre so I'll check it out this morning. If anyone from Team South wants to call FW parks department that would be fine.

 

As far as the tone of the accusations. They get a <_< but no penalty.

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I may have been incorrect by that assumption, but there were a few that jumped on me about my interpretation so made the connect-the-dots myself. If that was in error, I apologize. I'm still quite tender in that spot and so winced.

 

Fwiw, perhaps the past game and insinuations should be dropped and this game be taken for its own merits without the past getting in the way.

Edited by TotemLake
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I have never been to vds's house but, from what I know, he lives right by the park. So yes it is possible that he checked the web real quick then headed out. I emailed for a ruling at approx 9:10 but did not hear back until after vds already had the bug moved to lame #2. (even if we don't, the ref has to have a life outside the game)

 

I was in communication with vds at the time and his actions were based on the information he knew about the park from the FW websites and from his on site assessment. He didn't see any signs about park hours, the gates were open and there were about a dozen cars in the parking lot.

 

We knew that this might be challenged so we check all available resources and decided to take a chance.

 

I agree that this name calling has gotted out of hand. Please everyone, this is a game it is supposed to be fun. Let's all just wait and see what the ref has to say.

Edited by Wander Lost
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(re TL's post) Good, I'm glad to hear that. My comments were mainly intended to point out that BOTH sides have gotten carried away at times, and in the case of Ajetpilot, his feelings were hurt to the point that he's having nothing to do with the game this time. I think that is sad because he's a great cacher and a helluva nice guy.

 

I was trying to point out that it wasn't fair for the North to suddenly decide that the South should get "15 yards for unsportsmanlike conduct." There's been plenty of that on both sides.

 

I'm still trying to figure out CameraThyme's insulting remarks about me going caching in my "smoking jacket and slippers etc." yesterday. The emoticon makes it clear she wasn't joking. I haven't dignified it with a response other than to mention it here.

 

Edit to add parenthetical at beginning)

Edited by blueheron0
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My dear city and my dear Dumas Bay Center - I woke up this morning and got caught up on our "game". I called and talk to dear person at 810 am. She stated that the grounds are open to families, and access to the beach, to bring a flashlight if you were to get caught on the beach area at dusk so you could find your way back. Dumas Bay Center is a Federal Way Park. Generally, hours are "dawn to dusk" excluding special engagements. She did not state if you had to be a Center guest, or attending these special engagements, to wander the grounds after-hours. It's one big GRAY. Being the first finder of this cache, I will also add that the BLUES BROTHERS rock. - Peace, CT

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Fwiw... and I'm trying to do the same... ajetpilot should let bygones be bygones as water under the bridge because the remarks were made during a heated game and we are obviously very competitive in spite of the "stated" nature of geocaching.

 

It's the very nature of this particular variation that pumps up the competitive spirit.

 

The past game was a learning experience and even though I'm listed on the North team, have taken a back seat to this game while I concentrate my efforts on other personal issues until my place in the game becomes more critical.

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Blueheron, I chose the wrong emoticon then. I apologize. I was joking, in a fun-loving way. I'm sorry if you took ill intent. It's my humor ... and my cold medicine. I was just chiding that as soon as I logged it, you were there. And you had stated that you live 1/10 of a mile away. As the cache page says "a walk in the park". I could just **imagine**, as soon as you were able to get to it, that you could have strolled out, calmly, in the evening hours possibly in your robe and slippers (smoking jacket being a reference to those fancier robes showing a person of class) and nabbed that silly ol' cache. Sorry for how this statement was received. Unlike KVI, maybe it's time for MORE GAME AND LESS TALK. ;-) - More peace, CT

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(to TL) You are SO right! I personally feel that the rules this time around have removed most of the element of strategy, but we're stuck with them and life goes on. But it's so easy to get caught up in the adrenaline rush of competition and the immediate human reaction is to go for the jugular!

 

Around here, LadyDi is the voice of reason who occasionally reminds me of that which I really know: it's only a silly GAME, for goshsake!

 

Thanks, CT. That helps. The "non-joking" emoticon gave the impression that you considered everyone in The Harbor to be a bunch of rich fat-cats who sat around smoking cigars and counting their stock options. I'm not fat, I don't smoke, and my wife and I worked our butts off to be able to live here. I'm glad to know you were really joking--I certainly was when I responded to your email the first night.

 

Edit to add parenthetical and comments to CT. Hard to keep up!!!

Edited by blueheron0
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As an example of how we get carried away by the "spirit of competition," consider this. I'm an incorrigible Yankee (in the "northern" sense, NOT the baseball team, God forbid!). And yet in the last couple of days I've found myself signing cache logs and ending posts with "The South Will Rise Again!" What is this world coming to? :rolleyes:

Edited by blueheron0
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I think I've missed something here.

 

I posted the drop at 8:55. It was 8:58 according to the time log by the time I finished editing the entry to actually SHOW the time.

 

The log states that vds picked up the bug at 9:12 pm. So all of this extensive research was done, he drove to Dumas Bay Centre, raced down to the beach and retrieved the bug in less than 15 minutes.

 

Apparently Captain Kirk and the Enterprise are playing for the North. "Scotty, beam me directly to Dumas Centre!"

 

TL, why would you assume my comment was directed at you, personally?

Blueheron0:

 

The venom in all of your recent postings to this forum, as well as the 'tude in your logs yesterday online for my caches, are both quite objectionable and far over any reasonable lines of propriety.

 

While I have several things I 'could' say in response, I'm not going to dignify your attacks in the least by responding to them. Please try to pour gas on somebody else's fire.

 

That said, yes, I can get to that cache from my house in under 15 minutes including a Google search to find the site's hours. I live very close, and didn't even pull the GPS out of my pocket to find the cache, as I'd done it before.

 

And yes, I voted for Clinton. I guess that explains it. Hillary must be responsible.

 

Sheesh.

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Fair and reasonably, suffice it to say that if the hours are "dusk to dawn" and at most "30 minutes past dusk" as the attendant explained to me today, and as all City of Federal Way "parks" operate, the hide was innocent enough and going by the cache page's 'hours', but the actualness of it is that the park was closed in the eyes of Dumas Bay Center staff.

 

And within the spirit of geocaching, IF someone would have been hurt while going up and down to the shore, etc., and it explained why you were there, etc., well this isn't the sort of publicity the "sport of the game" would want.

Edited by CameraThyme
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I got up to look at this forum this morning and after reading the new posts I went back and re-read all of them from when the controversy started with an eye toward respect and civility. I really didn't see much more than reasonably intelligent people making arguments about a matter in dispute.

 

No argument over someone's actions can ever exclude an examination of the person's mental state - intent, knowledge, negligence or recklessness. That is what law is based on. However, examining that mental state is not automatically a personal attack, though it might fee like it is from that person's point of view.

 

I want to be able to argue points of rule like this without personalities getting involved. Otherwise, it takes all the fun out of it for everyone. None of my comments are meant to ever attack someone personally. I don't do that and don't tolerate it in others. I say this because the only way you know me is through what I write and with only a few exceptions we don't know each other personally.

 

If there were no controversies (minor only, please!) we'd probably quickly lose interest in the game. They are going to happen and we should be able to handle them reasonably. We argue, there is a resolution and we move on. I truly hope that we can keep this game on that level without feelings getting hurt. Please let me know directly if you feel anything I say is not up to that level.

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Fair and reasonably, suffice it to say that if the hours are "dusk to dawn" and at most "30 minutes past dawn" as the attendant explained to me today, and as all City of Federal Way "parks" operate, the hide was innocent enough and going by the cache page's 'hours', but the actualness of it is that the park was closed in the eyes of Dumas Bay Center staff.

 

And within the spirit of geocaching, IF someone would have been hurt while going up and down to the shore, etc., and it explained why you were there, etc., well this isn't the sort of publicity the "sport of the game" would want.

Then both hide 'and' grab were illegal.

Sunset was a little after 5pm yesterday.

 

Difficult part on this one is whether this facility is indeed a park, and whether it has different hours or not. My contention is the hours are different based on the posted web site hours, others contend 'no'. Ref rules.

 

Regarding the contention that Travis's web page is authoritative (which it can't be, he doesn't own the park), what if his web page said 9pm and a sign at the park said 8pm? Nobody could reasonably presume the owner's wishes didn't win out. Why is this one different ? If they wanted to have a closing time, they'd have posted one.

 

Years ago, there used to be a gate over the steps. There isn't one any more. My assessment is that means they're not trying to block beach access from this city-owned facility. Of course others certainly differ in opinion, which is why there's a ref. Go ref.

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I'm back! I lied it's about 1.5 miles from here. So I'm giving myself a :rolleyes: .

 

Found 2 signs at the site. One at the entrance to a paved trail (on the south end) that says the park is open until 9 PM. NO TRESPASSING during closed hours. Something like that. I have photos if we need them.

 

On the other end of the park (North) there is another sign which is a typical FW parks sign listing all the dos and do nots (mostly do nots) of FW parks. At the top is all parks are open dusk to dawn unless otherwise posted. This park is otherwise posted so the drop off after dusk would be okay.

 

The Centre and the park seem to be different so while the building may be open until 11 the park seems to close at 9 PM. People spend the night there so obviously the NO TRESPASSING after 9 doesn't apply to the building.

 

While I agree these signs would be farily easy to miss, especially if you came in from the north side, the park hours were posted on the cache page. And most parks are closed at dusk so the assumption they're closed by 9 at this time of year should be reasonably be made.

 

I'll make an official ruling tomorrow but unless someone has a valid argument against the proposed ruling I'll be taking away the 5 points north would have gotten for the placement.

 

On another note, I've noticed people aren't posting notes on caches they revisit to grab the potato. Geocaching etiquette is that you post notes. What do y'all think? Should we (or I guess you) be posting notes? Or would it be a nuisance to cache owners?

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Geez, vds. Lighten up. I've tried to keep my posts in a "reasonably reasonable" tone. I think others have been far more emotional. I understand that you are sensitive about this issue because it is your actions that are being questioned. I guarantee that I'd feel the same in your position. I meant no personal disrespect to you and apologize if it came across that way.

 

Hey, I voted for Clinton, too! (And would vote for him this November if he was running!) See, we DID find some common ground! :rolleyes:

 

I sense everyone sort of calming down and coming to the realization that its' just a silly game. Certainly we all have more important things to expend adrenaline on! My wife has informed me I need to get away from the computer and help her clean the place up. So I know where MY adrenaline had better be directed!

 

Peace?

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I personally feel that the rules this time around have removed most of the element of strategy, but we're stuck with them and life goes on.

Haven't you ever played normal Hot Potato before? <_< There is no strategy in the game. It's about moving a potato around as quick as possible.

 

But I do agree, we should have had many more blight times.

 

I also disagree it's taken all the strategy out. I had thought there was actually more strategy involved now. With a widely expanded number of caches you can place it in and more time to ponder where to put it there should be more strategy involved now.

 

But sorry, this is off-topic and should probably be in the rules thread. I'll invoke rule 13 here. :rolleyes:

Edited by gaviidae
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Years ago, there used to be a gate over the steps. There isn't one any more. My assessment is that means they're not trying to block beach access from this city-owned facility.

There is still a gate at the south end of the park blocking the entrance to the paved trail (or it would if it was closed, it was open this morning). The no trespassing after 9 PM sign is on this gate.

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Gaviidae, may I make a suggestion so we don't run into this again? If we can have a rule that states that we play by the posted information on the cache page, not any other websites, etc, and if a player does not agree with the posted information that they first contact the cache owner (who is suppose to maintain the cache and information on the site) and the ref (in order to get a ruling) BEFORE they make a move that would eliminate this situation from happening again.

 

This does three things:

1. It verifies, or updates the information on the cache site, which is what we all want.

2. It helps players know what they can and can not do with a particular cache.

3. We can all play the game with out having to worry about relying on search engine results before making a move. "We are the search engine". Also it isn't fair to the player, who just wants to play, and has to worry about his move being questioned after the fact.

 

Let's just go by what is on the official geocaching website. If there are questions, bring them up before making a move. Pretty straight forward I think.

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I agree with playing within the framework of the rules AND the traditions of geocaching. For instance, the error that was made with Travis and I a few nights ago happened when I went to place the TB at a pre-selected cache. The cache description said nothing about a park or closing hours. When I got there, I noticed that it was in a park and after starting toward the trail I thought that I had better check for any signs with posted closing hours. I found a sign that said the park was closed from dusk to dawn and since it was around 8:00 pm, knew that I had to abandon that cache, even though there were no closing times listed on the description. I didn't want to take the chance that placing it there would result in a penalty. We had to quickly chose another cache and accidentally chose a members only. Honest mistake for sure but an error nonetheless. Having made too many mistakes in my life to count, I know that they are often not intentional or premeditated. No hard feelings toward VDS or anyone else on Team North. There's lots of game left, so lets play!

 

Jeff

 

Automobile ACCIDENTS are called that because if they were purpose they'd have to be called something else!

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I think the Ref has this one nailed 100%. Team South has the spud, and we, North, lose our 5 points. If this official ruling occurs tomorrow, meanwhile, what is done w/ the spud? Couldn't South pick it up and get it going again?? I've got my caching self all cleaned up from my muddy Pot O Gold trip, and I'm ready for more adventures! - CT

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As far as posting a note at the cache about the Hot spud, It's fine with me if you don't post a note on my caches, OK if you want to though.

 

PS: The Open and Closed time I put on the cache description sheet for "Lame Micro #2" came from the sign within 10 feet of the cache.

 

I can't believe the tater is still in it, guess you all are waiting for a ruling?

 

Have fun, you Hot potato nuts. :mad:

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I like what Happy said about going by what is on the geocaching.com webpage for the cache, but if a park is closed at 9:00 and it's not listed on the cache page, the park is still closed and should be off limits until the park reopens. Just because the cache owner did not put the park hours on the cache page doesn't mean we can break the park rules.

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Posting here for everyone since there seems to be some mincing of words going on already about the moves Faile and I made today.

 

We got the bug from Lame 2 around 10:30am or so. Don't think that time really matters in terms of the points. Ask Blueheron, we called him right when we made the pick up.

 

Dropped the potato in Baxter's Camp Long Cache Redeux around 5:25 and were out of the park by 5:35 give or take.

 

We got home and logged the moves around 7:00pm. We haven't had a chance to get to the cache page to log a pick up or find on the Lame micro yet so don't worry, we'll get to it.

 

As for the park hours they are what they are. If you don't believe the picture, or think that my abilities with Photoshop rival those of the greatest programmers, feel free to drive out there and look for yourself. :mad:

 

Ok maybe I won't post the pic. If you want to see them some one will have to tell me how to post them on the logs. Until then, I'll put them up on a my website in a bit and give you the address.

 

EDITED to remove a comment or two. The situation it was concerning has a happy ending. I'll just leave it at that.

Edited by Perrin
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Thanks CT for a very courteous e-mail regarding the first issue. I'll be editing my previous post to remove a few things.

 

I'm glad everything is working out and we are all starting to get along again. This has been a very entertaining game. I would love to see it stay that way.

 

So who are you all betting on in the Super Bowl?

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(re: Kudos South etc.) Thanks, TL. We worked hard to come up with an actual "plan" and carry it out. It's very gratifying to have our opponents recognize our efforts. It may all come to nothing, but it's fun while it lasts. This was one of those gambles where you are either the hero or the goat. There's nothing in between.

 

I'm sure that in a week or so, TeamNorth will pull off some similar coup. I give you my word that I, for one, will be as gracious in admitting to it as you have been. If I should forget this, save the message, quote it, and stick it in my face!!!

 

I think it's time to get some sleep! Thanks to Perrin and Faile, we can all relax for a day or so!

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TGFE - thank gouda for edit .... I was thinking last night how cool it being placed in Camp was - a superior, planned (strategized very well) placement, and how my Survivor party would have a great kick-off with out incoming e-mail interuptions regarding a certain Spud. I just had an incoming mail that Nolenator was moving the Spud from that-cache-which-is-his. Games ON - but I'm benched. Go Teams Go.

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Aw, darn...just when you thought it was safe to break out the chips and salsa and turn on the tube....

 

TeamSouth has requested a ruling from the ref on this one and I've asked my fellow Southerners to refrain from shouting their indignation to the heavens on this forum.

 

We all understand that this is clearly NOT some heinous attempt by the North to "steal the game." We would hope that our worthy opponents would also stand down for a little while and see what the ref has to say.

 

BTW, does anyone really CARE who wins this football game today?

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I would like to ask for a ruling on this one... A geocacher no playing the game has moved the spud. He owns the cache the spud was in, and broke park hours to recover the spud. He is going to place the spud in another cache some time this morning. TeamSouth did a lot of planning and placed the spud in cache that was good until Tuesday morning. What should be the ruling of this move?

 

If he (the owner of the cache) did not move the spud it would sit there until Tuesday at 10:00.

 

Can owners of caches restrict their caches from the game?

 

Here is his post:

 

2/1/2004 nolenator retrieved it from Baxter's Camp Long Cache Redeux

I watched the previous game of Puget Sound Geo Hot Potato get way out of hand. I woke up this morning I noticed that the potato was placed in my cache. As the owner of Baxter's Camp Long Cache Redeux, I decided that I don't want my cache to be used for this game. The front gates to the park were open at 0600 today for the days climbing classes. I did not put it in Troop 591 because the area is getting geothrashed quite a bit and the area is having a tough time rebounding. I will place it in a nearby cache sometime this morning. Peace, Nolenator

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I would think that 'yes' an owner, non-player of the game, of a cache can move the gamepiece. It just seems unfortunate that a cacher would think 'cache' would be dramatically affected, but as the cache's owner, that's his perception/feeling. I believe we were on the resolve to let it sit until Tuesday and **pray** for no blight. And as Kfam asked, what exactly will bring that blight on? Like, if I do my taxes today, would that be likely to bring it on? Or if I eat more than 3 ribs, will that do it? ;-) I bet it's more of a dance thing that brings it on -- something like an Irish jig perhaps?

Edited by CameraThyme
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Well, I'm back and home and a lot has happened this weekend. Here are my statements:

 

1) The night pick up at Dumas Bay was illegal making the drop invalid as well. Team North will lose the 5 points for that drop. It should be understood by all it was just an easily made mistake just like Team South's earlier one but rules are rules.

 

2) Posted times on caches are simply guidelines. The actual closures and openings are what counts.

 

3) Nolenator for whatever reason stole the TB. Unfortunately, we have to deal with rude geocachers in this game (and in real life :mad: ). While he has the TB it is considered a park closure. There will be no blight time today so if he does what he claims we'll have no problems and can continue on. If he does not then we'll have to make a new potato and move on.

 

4) Normally, if the potato is inaccessible during a blight time the team that doesn't have it in their territory gets the points still. Sucks? Perhaps but them are the rules.

 

Does this answer all the questions? I'll update the website later today/tonight.

 

Go Panthers.

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I'd suggest we add a rule disallowing double posts. :mad:

 

Not sure what kind of rule you'd be able to have. I think you'd be best leaving it to the ref's discretion. In this case, because of what Team North had been discussing with me I know they didn't have anything to do with this.

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Nolenator has dropped off the TB. As I said earlier there is no blight time today so you can relax and watch the game if you want but since he dropped it off at about 10 AM this morning Team North will have until 10 AM tomorrow to move it (and log it) before South gets another point for the 24 hour rule. Because Team South didn't log the previous place until after Long was closed no time had accrued from that placement so there was still the 24 hours left.

 

Go Panthers.

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Grrrr! Not growling at the North, but am I allowed to be a bit peeved at nolenator? If he spent all that time following the last game he should have known we were starting a new one.

 

He could have easily changed his cache page to reflect that he didn't want it part of the game. Wasn't it CT that did that with one of her caches in the last game?

 

Oh well, what's done is done and the spuds moved on.

 

I'm glad everyone but one person thought it was a good move.

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