Geo-hot Potato III (IIb)

January 29, 2004

Okay, I'm going to make one more post and that will be all you'll hear from me about this.

As far as I'm concerned this illegal placement was just part of a hand-off (badly conceived but a hand-off nonetheless). As I stated on January 15th at 10:50 AM in another thread:

So yes, you can put it in an invalid cache during your 48 hours. WARNING: I don't see a problem with the other team stealing it while it's in this invalid cache.

Of course this was with the other game but still it's a precedent.

When I made the ruling via e-mail and then on the forums last night I realized afterwards that this precedent was out there and to fend off any questions I added the BTW. It was not a change or adjustment of the ruling. It was just clarifying what can be done by both teams.

As I stated before it's not technically a jump ball because someone has to have possession at all times or a blight time could occur and no points allotted. I have 2 small kids and play a lot of games with our church teenagers. I've played more than my fair share of hot potato. And when the hot potato goes off someone ALWAYS has possession. Even if it was thrown across the room.

I don't recall making a ruling about breaking the 5 mile limit last game but I think as CGal stated it it would have been correct to rule that way. The scoring is very different this game so different penalties have to apply. And frankly, I don't see my ruling causing a penalty being imposed for this move.

As far as not replying to Gillmore last night. I apologize I must have turned my computer off right before you e-mailed me. I responded as soon as I saw the message.

Team North could have just grabbed the potato and THEN complained about the placement. Then South wouldn't have even had a chance to move the potato.

As far as whether the ruling was fair or correct I used the rules 2a and 2b to make this ruling. 2a: I thought it would be far more fun and in the spirit of the game to give both teams a chance to get the potato rather than just give it to North and not let South get any chance for points. And 2b: It is a geocaching tradition that if a TB is in a cache you can retrieve it. Team North knows the rules so they're following the instructions on the TB.

I think I answered everything. I just wanted to remind everyone of one last rule:

[The ref] is all-powerful during this game, and may amend, add to, break, or selectively enforce any of these rules.

I don't think I did any of the above but if I did. I have the power. MUWHAHAHAHAHAHA

January 29, 2004

BlueHeron, you forgot to add, "in my smoking jacket, with my slippers on .... during a commercial break from Wonderful World of Disney." - CT

January 29, 2004

I don't think I did any of the above but if I did. I have the power. MUWHAHAHAHAHAHA

gaviidae,

Thanks for being the referee, your power is backed with intellect!

January 29, 2004

The official ruling was that the ball was in the South's possession until South placed it in a legal cache, or until 13:39, Jan 29 - at which point North would get 5 points for South not placing the ball legally.

Just noticed this and thought I would correct it. At 13:39 North would have gotten ONE point because South held the potato for more than 24 hours. At 19:39 it would have been another point and so on.

There was no penalty assessed on the play. It was treated just like a hand off using an "illegal" cache as discussed on another thread.

January 29, 2004

Thanks for being the referee, your power is backed with intellect!

Good call, runhills. 10 bonus points for Team North.

January 29, 2004

Thanks for being the referee, your power is backed with intellect!

Good call, runhills. 10 bonus points for Team North.

Backed by "the bottom line" in Rule 13 ....He is all-powerful during this game, and may amend, add to, break, or selectively enforce any of these rules.

Thanks for the bonus and a a reminder not to get criss-cross with you

January 29, 2004

Per the rules, notice is hereby OFFICIALLY given that LadyDi is joining TeamSouth. ("Thangya. Thangya vera much")

January 30, 2004

I want to sign up to play the geo hot potato III. Thank you. - ArmenianL PS Team North ----- Lisa needs to sign in to her geocaching.com account. Look for a post from her. When she clicked onto it from my PC, I was still logged on. DOH - CT

Edited January 30, 2004 by CameraThyme

January 30, 2004

I would like to sign up to play geo hot potato III. I would be on North. Thank you. ArmenianL

January 30, 2004

Off subject, but can anyone help me figure out why my "blueheron" avatar image isn't appearing? I've uploaded it successfully. On my account it is listed as the avatar image of choice, yet it doesn't show up here. I'm tired of being a TADPOLE!

2.5k · January 30, 2004

There are a few threads in the Getting Started and Geocaching Topics areas, but the tadpole is easy. You are listed as a tadpole until you have ten posts or (I believe) area a membe. The easy way to drop the tadpole is to post three more times. You can do that in the Getting Started area with a few test posts to make sure your avatar is showing up. As for the avatar, it usually is because you need to log out and then back in to get it to show up again. That may have changed with the new forums, but should be covered in the FAQ posted in the Getting Started area. I do hope the avatar is a good picture of a blue heron.

January 30, 2004

It looks like there's some sort of problem with the bug's page. Kfam apparently has the tater and it looks as if GEMS tried to post a "test" note to the page.

Does this have anything to do with the weather? A power outage? Or maybe that virus?

I hope everything's all right down there, Kfam.

Og

January 30, 2004

Off subject, but can anyone help me figure out why my "blueheron" avatar image isn't appearing?

I believe it takes a while to update on the forums. I assume because these are on Groundspeak.com rather than geocaching.com. Looks like your blueheron avatar is there now. Or is it a different one you're waiting for?

January 30, 2004

Joining Team North today - Jan 30.

1.8k · January 30, 2004

Great oogly moogly... I've never seen a TB jump so much in one day! Check the logs for today (January 30).

1.3k · January 30, 2004

I think we are all wondering when the first blight will hit.

2.5k · January 30, 2004

Five caches so far today and time for more this evening. :rolleyes:

Is there some kind of record for caches in one day by a TB?

January 31, 2004

Foul, Foul, Foul!!! Naughty on you VDS!!! :rolleyes: I'm a parent of four children. I can tell the second one of my kids has done something wrong because they start defending themselves before anyone says anything. That is exactly what VDS did, "Note - before going, I verified that I was ok re: park hours by consulting the Dumas Centre web site. "

Obviously he was looking for an excuse to go when the official Geocaching web page states that park is closed "The park is open 7:00 a.m. to 9:00 p.m." The rules for this game state very clearly "All applicable laws, regulations, and rules shall apply, including but not limited to posted park hours,..." I am sure there are enough websites out there to justify anything.

VDS deliberately and consciously broke the rules, gave excuses to justify his actions, and expects to get away with it with no repercussions. Wrong, Wrong, Wrong.

I call for the ref to award team south 10 points for team north deliberately breaking the rules of the game. This kind of disrespect for the game and the rules can not go unpunished. Swift reprocussions must be taken to keep this game in control.

1.8k · January 31, 2004

As much as I hate to disagree with my esteemed teammate, I've met VDS, and I don't believe he "deliberately and consciously broke the rules." I'm sure he'll hop on here in mere moments to explain, but my guess is that he honestly did not know what the park hours were. He's very familiar with the area, and is great at finding information online, so he checked the Dumas Bay Center web site, as I have, and found that the building closes at 11:00.

However, in my cache page description, as David correctly points out, I wrote, "The park is open 7:00 a.m. to 9:00 p.m." I'm sure I didn't make this up. It's been August since I was there, but if I remember correctly, these hours are posted on a blue sign at the west end of the parking lot.

The Dumas Bay Center building, and the Dumas Bay Park, while both run by Federal Way Parks, probably have two separate sets of hours. The gardens, the trail, and the beach behind the building (where the cache is located) are, I believe, subject to the 9:00 closing time. The building, to my surprise, is staffed until 11:00.

I don't believe VDS acted in bad faith. He could have overlooked the hours on the cache page, or could have thought the Dumas Bay web page overrode those. If he entered from the east end of the park, he may have missed the sign. In fact, it may be possible that the hours have changed since last August. It's unlikely, because I've never heard of a park extending its hours for winter, but it's possible.

I suggest anyone who is able to do so check out the sign at the west end of the parking lot and either confirm these hours, or confirm that VDS made a legal pickup.

(Edit: adding clarifying parenthetical in paragraph 3)

Edited January 31, 2004 by travisl

January 31, 2004

I have to agree with Happy here. I thought we were playing by info presented on cache pages here, not info from other sources of information.

Rule 2b All rules and traditions of geocaching shall apply.

As far as I can tell, rules of geocaching, especially rules for individual caches, are always spelled out on the cache page. As they were in this instance.

I don't know if there is a sign out there stating the park hours, but I have to assume there is one since it was in Travis' cache description.

As for the open until 11:00pm thing that vds mentioned, I checked that out and it looks to me that 11:00 is how late the building facilities are open. Is that a hotel or something? I guess it is since it mentioned late check ins up til 11.

January 31, 2004

Seems a bit too coincidental that vds "forgot" to log the drop off time at a park that closes at 10:00 pm, then had to go back to edit it to match, since the cache description clearly states the closing time. And this, after picking up the bug at 9:12 pm from a park where the cache description also clearly states that the park closes at 9:00 pm. Lots of tracks to cover, huh? I agree with Happy, lots of pre-emptive defensiveness indicates wrong doing. A ruling please?

January 31, 2004

"I suggest anyone who is able to do so check out the sign at the west end of the parking lot and either confirm these hours, or confirm that VDS made a legal pickup."

Would it be too obvious to point out that "anyone" should include a representative of each team?

January 31, 2004

Sounds like when I bust a kid at school. :rolleyes: Sometimes I hear the funniest excuses.

January 31, 2004

I appreciate your voice of reason Travis. However, VDS' "good faith error" is no different than yours in picking a members only cache two nights ago. North capitalized on what the ref ruled in that instance was an error, why should it be different this time?

January 31, 2004

Guys, I checked the web site before leaving to make sure when closing hours were, and saw nothing saying that the park had any closing hours at all. I entered from the 'east' side coming down the hill from Lakota JHS if that helps.

Those of you who've been in any of the FW parks know that the city makes it pretty doggone obvious when things are closed normally.

Seeing the place was still all lit up, with cars and people coming to and fro, I had to conclude that Travis's pages were out-dated, and that the city's (which are authoritative regardless) were current truth.

I was also on the phone with a couple Northerners asking them to verify that I hadn't missed anything on the web site just in case. Nobody could find any evidence that the path to the beach actually closes.

January 31, 2004

shallow justifications for over-zealousness.

January 31, 2004

Seems a bit too coincidental that vds "forgot" to log the drop off time at a park that closes at 10:00 pm, then had to go back to edit it to match, since the cache description clearly states the closing time. And this, after picking up the bug at 9:12 pm from a park where the cache description also clearly states that the park closes at 9:00 pm. Lots of tracks to cover, huh? I agree with Happy, lots of pre-emptive defensiveness indicates wrong doing. A ruling please?

oh for heavens sake, I didn't "forget" anything.

Check out the log on the web page for the lame2 cache, which shows the time logged and has not been edited. It's also well known that the lame2 park closes at 10pm, as it was used previously in this contest.

There's no pre-emptive defensiveness, just clarification that the authoritative pages from the park owner (ie, the city) said something quite different than Travis's non-authoritative info in his cache page say.

January 31, 2004

I would suggest that most of us, following the supposed "spirit" of the "game," would not have worked so hard to try to justify a potentially illegal move.

January 31, 2004

Coincidentally, I was there the other day (DNFing the Sound cache, lol) and saw no posted park hours anywhere I went. Of course, I went in the middle of the day, so I wasn't particularly worried.

Perhaps the best way to know for sure what the park hours are is to contact the Federal Way Parks Department and ask. I'd suggest that only one person do that (preferably gaviidae) so that they don't worry about the sudden interest in Dumas Bay Park. :rolleyes:

First, we should send people out to looks for signs though, I guess.

Edited to include the following:

I really don't feel comfortable with the comparison between VDS and a sneaky child, though (I have 2 sneaky children and was one myself)... if the hours on the cache page are no longer current, I'm sure Travis would appreciate knowing. If VDS suspects that the legal park hours might be later than 9, it's worth checking out. I think it was honest of him to bring up the park hours issue -- he could have just placed the bug, hoping nobody would notice.

Also, if VDS grabbed the bug from Sound at 9:12, he could have easily placed it into Lame #2 by 9:50. They're not far apart, so I don't think he cheated and placed it after the 10 p.m. deadline -- in case that was an accusation up above. I'm tired, so I don't want to assume anything there. <_<

Edited January 31, 2004 by NomadRaven

January 31, 2004

Travis,

I salute you for being the only one in the last few posts that is endeavering to follow rule 2.a!!

Finger pointing and personal attacks is not fun! Whatever the hour ruling is, lets the rest of us be civill and keep this a fun game!

January 31, 2004

So you were looking for a way AROUND the rules and just wouldn't allow yourself to believe what was on the cache page.

Does that mean that if you guys use a park with closed hours that we can ignore the cache page, look somewhere else on the web for info that will suit our needs, then conveniently miss seeing a sign that might be around with the park hours on it?

I can believe that there were people coming and going around that time too though. Heck its a Friday night, there's a hotel nearby and people want something to do.

I wonder if how many of these people were going into or leaving the hotel?

Again I'm just assuming there is a hotel there. Sounds like there is though.

January 31, 2004

Incidentally, yes I knew what Travis's page said. I decided to see if the city's pages agreed (which, as their the owner, take precedence in my opinion), and found otherwise.

Obviously several of you won't agree with me if I say today's Friday, so I'm not going to even try to comment on some of your notes.

Regardless, the position of Team North is that the owner (FW web page) said it was open.

I'm signing off now for the evening.

Edited January 31, 2004 by vds

January 31, 2004

If you weren't looking to get around the closing time listed on the cache description page, you wouldn't have bothered to look on a web page for info on a cache you did in August. You'd punch in the coords and go there, just like everyone else.

January 31, 2004

travisl Posted on Jan 30 2004, 11:31 PM

I suggest anyone who is able to do so check out the sign at the west end of the parking lot and either confirm these hours, or confirm that VDS made a legal pickup.

Of course it makes sense to "confirm that VDS made a legal pickup". Of course in confirming that he made a legal pickup we would have to be able to confirm that he did not speed, and that he parked in the proper parking space while hurrying to get the cache, Because rule 2c states "All applicable laws, regulations, and rules shall apply, including but not limited to posted park hours, parking rules, and traffic laws." How are we going to confirm all of this. Why just confirm he obeyed the "building hours" from another website. Are we going to have to turn into Geo-cops in order to play this game? Do we have to scan all available websites before making a move? Of course not.

We are using the info provided by the cache page. It is the ONLY fair way to run the game.

1.8k · January 31, 2004

Seems a bit too coincidental that vds "forgot" to log the drop off time at a park that closes at 10:00 pm, then had to go back to edit it to match...

I've got Lame Micro #2 on my watch list, and the log that's there now is no different than the one that arrived in my inbox at 10:31.

Logging a bug drop doesn't copy the drop note over to the bug page. The bug page drop note is blank (like Jester's drop note this morning) unless you edit it. Editing it was the method we recommended at the pre-game dinner, as a good way to prove the log time.

Accusing people of intentionally cheating will have lasting repercussions beyond the boundaries of the Hot Potato game. I believe VDS made an honest mistake -- not unlike my suggestion to drop the potato in a members only cache -- and his mistake should have a consequence commensurate with mine, namely, no points for the drop, it's in North's possession, but is available to steal.

(Question: what if members from both teams are at the park at the opening bell? Recommendation: Flip a coin.)

Would it be too obvious to point out that "anyone" should include a representative of each team?

Or take a photo, or just trust them. Maybe I'm just too naive, but most geocachers are some of the most honest folks I've met.

January 31, 2004

Travis,

I salute you for being the only one in the last few posts that is endeavering to follow rule 2.a!!

Finger pointing and personal attacks is not fun! Whatever the hour ruling is, lets the rest of us be civill and keep this a fun game!

oops

January 31, 2004

vds Posted on Jan 30 2004, 11:51 PM

Incidentally, yes I knew what Travis's page said.

That is sweet. He knew what the website said and went anyway. Boy, have I heard that from my kids before. What ever his rational, he knowingly (by his own admission) got the TB after the posted hours on the website. That is a FOUL.

It may have been done in fair play. I have to give VDS every benifit of the doubt that he had good intentions. That however does not excuse the actions.

January 31, 2004

It's also well known that the lame2 park closes at 10pm, as it was used previously in this contest.

There's no pre-emptive defensiveness, just clarification that the authoritative pages from the park owner (ie, the city) said something quite different than Travis's non-authoritative info in his cache page say.

Yeah its well known because it says that on the cache page!

For people that haven't been there before, we would tend to believe what was written on the cache page and not go looking for a way around it!

Sorry about the !!!! Hope they don't offend anyone by making them think I broke rule 2a or something :rolleyes:

January 31, 2004

Might I ask --

Where exactly is this cache located -- Dumas Bay Park, or Dumas Bay Center?

These are two different pieces of land. (Dumas Bay Center is a convention center, not a hotel, with its own grounds.) On the Federal Way Map of City Parks (link), you can see Dumas Bay Centre, the green splotch under the 509 dot, and to its WSW, you can see Dumas Bay Park, at the southernmost point of Dumas Bay.

You can verify this with a TopoZone view of the same area. The Centre is visible as a hat-shaped building, its grounds appearing as a white splotch. To the WSW you can see Dumas Bay Park, a much more complex looking white splotch.

Now if I go to the cache page for The Day I Went To The Sound... (link) and click on the TopoZone link, which should bring me to a topographic map centered on the cache coordinates (link), it displays me a map with the little red crosshairs in the northern tip of the grounds of Dumas Bay Centre -- NOT Dumas Bay Park.

Travis' page even states that the cache is located in Dumas Bay Center, then goes on to give the hours of Dumas Bay Park -- which, we've established, are two different places.

I guess it depends on how Travis originally got to the cache location. Did he start in Dumas Bay Park, take a trail heading ENE, and ended up placing the cache on the Dumas Bay Center grounds? (From the look of it this would only be about a 0.25 mi walk or so.) If so, this means it is possible to get to the cache without entering Dumas Bay Park at all, in which case, getting to the cache within the hours of the land in which the cache is actually located is fully legal. The hours of the park down the street from the cache don't have any relevance.

Now, I'm doing this all from online resources, anyone more familiar with the area, and the actual cache location, is welcome to shoot me down.

January 31, 2004

Gaviidae,

I really see a real chance for you to swing your power! First use your wisdom to rule on the pickup by vds and the appropriate action! Then really swing your staff and assign penalty points for the lack of common civillity expressed in this forum!

The main reason for having a referee is to settle such issues, the players can really get rilled at the referee (sorry gaviidae) preventing the hostiliy expressed in this forum!

January 31, 2004

Gaviidae,

I really see a real chance for you to swing your power! First use your wisdom to rule on the pickup by vds and the appropriate action! Then really swing your staff and assign penalty points for the lack of common civillity expressed in this forum!

The main reason for having a referee is to settle such issues, the players can really get rilled at the referee (sorry gaviidae) preventing the hostiliy expressed in this forum!

Hey psst runhills, there's a little something on your nose. <_<

Just kidding :rolleyes:

January 31, 2004

Can we stop using this source, and that website for a minute? This is a geocaching game. If we are going to play we go by the information on the geocaching website.

VDS, I mean no personal assault here. We are all working hard to play our best.

I feel if you did not agree with the posted times on the cache page that the proper procedure would have been that you would have brought it to the cache owner and ref's attention and waited for a ruling before you went and got the cache.

We all want to obey the local laws. If there were incorrect information on a cache page it would benefit everyone to have it corrected.

Hindsight is always 20/20. I imagine that if you would have thought of that you would have done that.

January 31, 2004

Hmmm, you may be right! :rolleyes: I just would like this to be fun. I would sure hate to have to explain these forum posts to my kids as an acceptable way to act! <_<

January 31, 2004

I agree with runhills. The ref needs to make a decision about the TB pickup.

As far as civility, I don't remember anyone on team south asking the ref to take points against team north in the last game when almost an entire page was taken up by them yelling accusations, and name calling. I think this is a little like the kettle calling the pot black.

I publicly apologize for any comments that may have offended anyone. I am very passionate about fair play. When I ref high school age basketball games I call them as I see them.

In hindsight I should have waited an hour or two before making my first post regarding this matter, as I was a bit upset. I apologize for my immaturity on the onset of this discussion.

I will let this rest and await the ref's call.

To all a good night. :rolleyes:

1.8k · January 31, 2004

Good questions, RomulusNR. I may have spoken incorrectly earlier this evening, and your research pointed out my mistake. Dumas Bay Park (which, incidentally, is the park that VDS' 'Got Change for a Sand Dollar' cache is in), has nothing to do with this cache. Dumas Bay Center (or Centre, on some signs) is a convention center and home to the Knudtsen Family Theater.

Looking at the King County Tax Assessor maps, the cache is clearly on a 12.29 acre parcel of property called the "Dumas Bay Conference Center"

I'm so confused :rolleyes:

The two things that I'm fairly sure of, though, are

1) that the Dumas Bay Centre web site says, "The use of the grounds is open to the public for passive recreational use," and mentions the 11:00 p.m. time only in the following context:

Check-in time for overnight rooms is 3:00 pm. Check-out is 11:00 am. Staff is onsite from 7:00 am - 11:00 pm. Late arrivals must make prior arrangements to gain entry to the building after 11:00 pm.

2) that I saw some kind of sign on site last August indicating that the park hours were 7:00 a.m. to 9:00 p.m

The second best way to reconcile these differences, in my opinion, is as follows. The 11:00 closing time is in reference to staff being onsite for guest check-in. The 9:00 closing time is in reference to the passive recreational use.

The best way, of course, would be to call the Federal Way parks department and find out.

January 31, 2004

"I don't remember anyone on team south asking the ref to take points against team north in the last game when almost an entire page was taken up by them yelling accusations, and name calling. I think this is a little like the kettle calling the pot black."

I think this is a point well taken. The personal assaults launched against Ajetpilot at the end of the last game drove away one of the nicest people in the entire game of geocaching. This was someone who INVARIABLY "trades up" when caching. I have watched him put incredibly nice things in caches without EVER taking anything out. And this forum (sorry, but it was certain TeamNorth people who were responsible) treated him like crap. As a result, he wants nothing to do with us anymore.

Now when the shoe is on the other foot, people cry foul. Interesting.

5.6k · January 31, 2004

In all the discussion about park hours, it's all concentrated on the Dumas Bay Park. With examples of how Lame #3 closes at 10pm & both sides abide by that. The interesting thing is the Lame Micro #3 cache page says "Park closes 1/2 hour after dusk" - it says nothing about actual time. So which do we work with, the cache page (which would at this time of year mean something like 6-7pm) or the 10pm rule? Will that invalidate any previous placements?

Also, what about cache pages that don't list park hours? Does that mean we can go there anytime because the cache page doesn't say 'no'? Even if there's a sign saying closed?

Craig (The Jester)

January 31, 2004

In all the discussion about park hours, it's all concentrated on the Dumas Bay Park. With examples of how Lame #3 closes at 10pm & both sides abide by that. The interesting thing is the Lame Micro #3 cache page says "Park closes 1/2 hour after dusk" - it says nothing about actual time. So which do we work with, the cache page (which would at this time of year mean something like 6-7pm) or the 10pm rule? Will that invalidate any previous placements?

Also, what about cache pages that don't list park hours? Does that mean we can go there anytime because the cache page doesn't say 'no'? Even if there's a sign saying closed?

Craig (The Jester)

I know, you are just using Lame #3 as an example to make a point, (I don’t think the Bug will fit in Lame #3) but it’s actually even more confusing, than it looks.

If you click on the “User’s Web Page” link at the top of the cache page, (also HERE ), you can read:

“…and provides the community waterfront access, enticing beachcombers year round and sunbathers, boaters, and picnickers during the summer.”

And after a paragraph mostly about the buildings tour:

“Open Saturdays between 1 and 4 p.m. from February to mid-November”

The only sign, referring to park open hours, at the Park says:

“Park closes 1/2 hour after dusk” and nothing else.

January 31, 2004

In all the discussion about park hours, it's all concentrated on the Dumas Bay Park. With examples of how Lame #3 closes at 10pm & both sides abide by that. The interesting thing is the Lame Micro #3 cache page says "Park closes 1/2 hour after dusk" - it says nothing about actual time. So which do we work with, the cache page (which would at this time of year mean something like 6-7pm) or the 10pm rule? Will that invalidate any previous placements?

Also, what about cache pages that don't list park hours? Does that mean we can go there anytime because the cache page doesn't say 'no'? Even if there's a sign saying closed?

Craig (The Jester)

Its in lame micro 2 not 3.

and the page clearly says 10pm.

oh whatever, going back to sleep. let's just say game on since there seems to be no ref ruling. whenever I played sports and the ref didn't call something the game kept going as is, so that's how I'm going to play it! :rolleyes:

9.5k · January 31, 2004

but it was certain TeamNorth people who were responsible) treated him like crap. As a result, he wants nothing to do with us anymore.

I personally take exception to this remark.

At the beginning of that cry of foul I made certain that I entered careful wording to keep the discussion of my points on the foul civil. As noted and quoted:

Without trying to disparage ajetpilot or bilbo2,

My entire discussion on ajetpilot's action was based solely on an interpretation of the rules and asked for a ruling. Several people on the South team apparently failed to see this.

With regards,

TL

Edited January 31, 2004 by TotemLake

Geo-hot Potato III (IIb)

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