Geo-hot Potato Part II

January 16, 2004

Well, it seems that in the matter of one week we've had one cache archived, logs on caches entered incorrectly, and the entire contents of a cache taken (and replaced). What would 100 days of this game do?

We need to remember that we are using other people's caches and that geocaching.com is about more than just this game.

Taking the entire contents of a cache is unsportsmanlike conduct in my opinion. The game is now officially paused while we get things straightened out.

I have talked to members of both teams and both are disagreeing on the most recent action. Again.

My personal opinion is that removing the entire contents of a cache is bad form. But as pointed out to me, there is no rule on geocaching.com or hot potato expressly forbidding it. If I was the cache owner I would be upset if someone had done this to my cache but as has also been pointed out to me stuff like this does happen.

Feel free to discuss on this thread whether the game should be restarted or not and whether there should be any adjustments or ground rules. Like I said earlier I'll be out of town until Sunday so I won't be commenting. If everyone can come to an agreement about what should be done I'm all ears. Right now whichever way I decide one team will be upset with me.

If you decide you'd like to restart the game or start a new game without me that is fine too.

Also, I have heard there may have been some shenanigans with the Poverty Bay cache. Does Team North have anything to confess about moving the cache?

Whoever has the contents of the plundered cache, if you could please return the original contents (and take back the left items). This cache is supposedly often visited by families and the kid-oriented items would be a better fit it.

1.3k · January 16, 2004

I agree a time out is nessassary. Is there a time this weekend that representatives from both teams can meet to discuss options?

I'll offer up my house for a meeting place, or we can try to find something else on 'neutral' ground.

Janet

2.5k · January 16, 2004

Also, I have heard there may have been some shenanigans with the Poverty Bay cache. Does Team North have anything to confess about moving the cache?

I agree with the pause. I was just suggesting that to Team North.

With respect to the Poverty Bay cache. Totem Lake and I visited after Travis failed to find it. We did not know he was going to be there. It just happened that both teams were interested in that cache and it had a few not founds on it. We replaced the cache exactly where we found it. The only thing we did not do was sign the logbook. Travis did log later that he moved it back to where it was when he originally found it. They do migrate from time to time, but Team North had nothing to do with it.

January 16, 2004

I'm up for a meeting, if for nothing else than just for fun. We could all go out for pizza or something, too. Whatever everybody else is comfortable with.

RomulusNR and I were thinking about going down to Portland/Vancouver for part of the weekend, so if we firm up a meeting time and place today that would be great. Rom and I will just adjust our plans accordingly.

No hard feelings toward anybody from me. It's not so much that I care about winning or losing, It's been fun having something to scheme and be clever at. :unsure: My poor, unemployed brain needs something to do. I just think that we need to draw up a set of acceptable hot potato trading behaviors that won't affect the south sound geocaching community as a whole in a negative way.

Either that, or scrap the game... but I hate to do that, since it was fun and I'd like to think that a group of adults can hash out some rules that will ensure nobody gets trampled.

2.5k · January 16, 2004

I know I can not handle 100 days like the last week. Something has to change. I have been sitting at this computer for two hours and only left to pick up the mail. This is not why I got into geocaching.

1.8k · January 16, 2004

A pause or even a restart is a good idea. Thanks again, Gaviidae, for being a ref in this game. It's certainly gotten a lot more complicated than it did last year.

Although I may have engaged in wild speculation about Poverty Bay, I don't think there were any shenanigans... just 'natural' movement of a cache, and my own well-documented blindness.

I understand CameraThyme's desire to not have a half dozen folks tromping across her doorstep at 2:00 a.m. However, there were no time or manner restrictions placed on her cache, and I don't think it would be unreasonable to expect that some night cacher may try for it. Having people lurking around my house at anytime wouldn't be desirable -- that's why I haven't placed a cache there. Similarly, if, in the future, the potato is placed in a park with posted closed times (e.g., dusk to dawn), a person should not violate the park regulations to get the potato.

I never anticipated that the potato would be concealed inside of an item in the cache. Drinksmith concealed it fairly well inside of paper in a coffee mug. Kiltsurfer concealed it well inside of a tennis ball. Drinksmith concealed it very well inside of a perfectly resealed McToy.

If the potato is concealed in a manner in which a finder could not be expected to reasonably find it within a short amount of time, I think it would be reasonable to expect them to take all of the contents of the cache for further inspection. Granted, this isn't a good idea, and while not violating the "take something, leave something" rule, it violates the spirit of caching.

It's not possible to come up with a set of rules to cover every possible situation. Of the many things I've learned during my past two years of geocaching, one of the biggest is how creative the local cachers can be.

I'd like to take Wander Lost up on her offer to sit down and set up some clear general ground rules. Not rules to cover every circumstance, but higher level -- some may say squishy -- intentions. Stuff like "non-playing cachers should be unable to tell that a cache has been involved in the game".

This would also be a good opportunity to tweak the rules so it's not a game of 'grab it in your territorry and sit on it for two days'. That's kind of boring to us, in the south, too.

1.8k · January 16, 2004

I know I can not handle 100 days like the last week

A late arrival at home, asking to go out at 2:00 a.m. (denied!), cell phone calls at 2:30 a.m., leaving home at 5:30 a.m.

My wife can't handle 100 days like the last week.

2.5k · January 16, 2004

Well said Travis.

I think it is probably a good idea to do more than tweak the rules though. Team North has been on the defense since GEM's made his first pick up of the bug. As vds said, with perfect play from that point on North has no chance. I want to have the idea that I have a chance of winning ot I don't want to play. All we could do is hope for a mistake on your part or force an error. The cammo job was our way of trying the latter.

In your suggestion of a rule about the park hours. I would also suggest that the time spent while the park is closed not count toward the three hour limit. If the spud is placed just before closing, then it is fair game upon the park opening otherwise.

This can work, it is just not there yet.

9.5k · January 16, 2004

Ditto! And thanks Travisl for everything thus far.

I think a ruling on virtual removals should be looked at regardless of how the TB was hidden. I believe the potato should be found at the cache and not dump the contents into my backpack to take home for inspection... even if there were trades involved. Without trying to disparage ajetpilot or bilbo2, it prevents the other team from a legitimate retrieval after the 3 hour window expired.

9.5k · January 16, 2004

Also, I have heard there may have been some shenanigans with the Poverty Bay cache. Does Team North have anything to confess about moving the cache?

I agree with the pause. I was just suggesting that to Team North.

With respect to the Poverty Bay cache. Totem Lake and I visited after Travis failed to find it. We did not know he was going to be there. It just happened that both teams were interested in that cache and it had a few not founds on it. We replaced the cache exactly where we found it. The only thing we did not do was sign the logbook. Travis did log later that he moved it back to where it was when he originally found it. They do migrate from time to time, but Team North had nothing to do with it.

I am a firm believer of fairplay and placing the cache back exactly where I found it. Which is what I did. I found it at that spot, and I rehid it at that spot.

I personally had to have Mr. Happy explained to me because I didn't see it when I located the cache to reference the title.

January 16, 2004

Hey, I'm OK with nocturnal caching. And when I read what the game was about - way cool. But reasonable use of a cache, please. Hit the cache, leave the cache. That's the norm right? Lurking and coming with an entourage (spelling - ??) isn't norm caching. I mean, hey, is this a s l o w e r moving potato caching machine with the need to have 7 people hit the cache within 20 minutes? Play your game and have FUN, play fair and have more fun. If this is a restart per se, could I join the game or would no one have me? -- CT --- PS All this intrigue, deceit, camoflaging ---- almost like playing Survivor minus Johnny Fairplay's dead grandma.

Edited January 16, 2004 by CameraThyme

9.5k · January 16, 2004

We'll have ya CT!

1.8k · January 16, 2004

I agree with everything you said, CT, except ...

I mean, hey, is this a s l o w e r moving potato caching machine with the need to have 7 people hit the cache within 20 minutes?

It's a communication problem, not much different than people trying to get FTFs. I realized, on the way back from Sand Dollar today, that I should have had my FRS radio on.

And as much as it pains me to not have you on our team, you'd be a great addition to the Kingons. I fear your guile.

January 16, 2004

There is nothing to fear but fear itself..... unless the definition goes straight to one of guile's synonyms, "foxy", -- and that I have never been called. "Wily" on the other hand, I have been "wily". This one time ..... at Scout camp ...... - CT

Edited January 16, 2004 by CameraThyme

1.3k · January 16, 2004

We could all go out for pizza or something, too. Whatever everybody else is comfortable with.

Pizza sounds good. I called the Round Table we had the WSGA Meeting at in Federal Way. We could reserve that room this weekend. Saturday & Sunday they have groups in there from 4-8pm but we could have the room before or after that.

Of course the offer still stands to meet at our house. (we could always order pizza in)

January 16, 2004

I can't make a meeting this weekend (not that I've been invited :unsure: ) because of going out of town as mentioned earlier. I think it's a great idea for everyone to get together and hash out some clarified rules and most importantly an agreed upon set of etiquette.

You might want to talk to Right Wing Whacko too because he's planning to start a game when this ends and could be a good outside observer and has some vested interest in this game because the results of our game has some, albeit indirect, impact on his.

When/if (hopefully when) you decide to restart the game I'd be happy to ref it again or if the teams would prefer would be fine with someone else taking this role.

I hope no one has taken any of my comments or decisions personally. It's all just a game. :bad:

Cache on...

2.5k · January 16, 2004

I won't be available all weekend so don't count on me to be there. I'm sure the group can come up with something that is playable and will leave that to your judgement.

Good Luck on fixing this and just remember -- Have Fun

January 16, 2004

If the potato is concealed in a manner in which a finder could not be expected to reasonably find it within a short amount of time, I think it would be reasonable to expect them to take all of the contents of the cache for further inspection. Granted, this isn't a good idea, and while not violating the "take something, leave something" rule, it violates the spirit of caching.

...

This would also be a good opportunity to tweak the rules so it's not a game of 'grab it in your territorry and sit on it for two days'. That's kind of boring to us, in the south, too.

Travis - as I voiced on the 'two minutes left' thread, I most certainly disagree with your assessment. Failure to find in the timeframe means you failed to find it (something we're all used to from time to time). Pirating the cache was bad form.

So where to go...

Given the current rules, and the fact that the South clearly has 24x7 coverage of the NorthTacoma/FederalWay region surrounding the starting point by 'multiple' people, there is simply absolutely zero chance they can lose.

They might not win, but they cannot possibly lose under any circumstances. The 5-mile limit plus the 3-hours freeze is simply impossible to overcome, given an opposition who can cover 24x7.

Many of us have sufficiently busy lives, that battling for a 'tie' is not sufficiently interesting to bother playing.

The current rules are, at best, geo-TicTacToe.

- no mistakes equals a tie

- one mistake means you guaranteed lose

Just as in TicTacToe, once you make a mistake, it's over:

- 5 mile max means you can't play defense at all

- 3 hour freeze means no chance to get to it first as the home team, the roads aren't THAT bad (yet)

Again, my recommendation is that in hot potato the goal should be to make the thing hop.

- try to achieve maximum number of hops in a region with some 'staleness' penalties and/or some 'mileage' bonus points.

- put people who hid or found the bug in personal freezes for 'several days' so people with no jobs, or night jobs, or no apparent life :unsure: , can't just smother the whole game and ruin it for all.

I think we need a sit-down to come up with some possible scoring mechanisms, and walk through some scenarios and see how the score comes out.

It's obviously fatally flawed as-is, lets try to make it more of a 'game'.

2.5k · January 16, 2004

When/if (hopefully when) you decide to restart the game I'd be happy to ref it again or if the teams would prefer would be fine with someone else taking this role.

I hope no one has taken any of my comments or decisions personally. It's all just a game.

Cache on...

Gaviidae, I was posting when this came up. Personally I think you have done a fine job with this and would welcome you continuing as referee. This just became too much too fast.

9.5k · January 16, 2004

I think a meeting of both teams + ref is a great idea... even the innocent observers should be welcome. We need to be able to hammer this out without hard feelings. Beer and pizza is a great idea.

How about a week from today so we can ensure our ref is included. His input is going to be of value.

Then we can decide to continue with the existing game slightly modified with an agreed upon etiquette or start anew.

Edited to add a week from now will allow a sufficient cool-off period.

Edited January 16, 2004 by TotemLake

January 16, 2004

How about a week from today so we can ensure our ref is included. His input is going to be of value.

Didn't get out of here as quickly as I thought I would.

I'm not sure I can make any meeting in the next week or so, so please don't hold off on my account.

1.8k · January 16, 2004

Good idea. How about 6:00 at Round Table, Federal Way, on Thursday, January 22?

Should I make an event out of it?

If anyone's got an LCD projector, that'd be really useful to use to write the updated rules on the fly, with everyone's input.

1.3k · January 16, 2004

If the room is free that is good for me. I think we could all benefit from a week to cool off, get some sleep, and think about why we wanted to play this game in the first place.

January 16, 2004

I would like the game to be more about tons of folks having fun rather than winning! An I the only one that would have throughly enjoyed sitting on the ground searching the cache spread around me only to have a member of the other team stroll up and claim the prize?

Maybe a clear objective needs to be stated before the rules are reworked?

9.5k · January 16, 2004

I'll have to provide my ideas by proxy unless I suddenly become employed. Not that I wouldn't want to be there, but I'll be off doing a 4 day weekend of winter camping that has been planned for months and months and months. Whatever comes of the meeting, I'll abide by the new rules.

January 16, 2004

Thursday's good for me. Most evenings are, really. Seven might be better than six for people not in Federal Way or Tacoma, but I'm cool with it.

Runhills, I agree. Having a stranger walk up, trade a toy for the camoflauged bug, sign the log, and grin at me would have had immense comic value. I'd have laughed for the rest of the day.

I got a kick out of all of the cleverness everybody displayed in the game. The tennis ball? Hilarious. The ideas our team came up with? Clever, too. If nothing else, it's been a lot of fun.

9.5k · January 16, 2004

An I the only one that would have throughly enjoyed sitting on the ground searching the cache spread around me only to have a member of the other team stroll up and claim the prize?

The irony of it would have been hilarious!

There was that potential on each clever hide with toys to the hidden compartment.

2.5k · January 16, 2004

Thursday evening is fine with me. Either time would work for me.

January 16, 2004

A late arrival at home, asking to go out at 2:00 a.m. (denied!), cell phone calls at 2:30 a.m., leaving home at 5:30 a.m.

My wife can't handle 100 days like the last week.

It occured to me the other day that it probably wasn't very normal of me to let my SO go out at 1:30 in the morning to meet another woman.

Oh, the strange things we do in the name of caching. It's a good thing him and I are both equally into it. :unsure:

January 16, 2004

Could we possibly have a weekend meeting? some of work swing swift. :unsure:

January 17, 2004

My 2 cents...

I agree with everyone else this game got way out of hand. I think we should just call this game a learning game, no one wins no one loses.

I think we should start a new game with new rules. Work out the rules at a high level and go from there. I think if we each talk about this for a week in the forums, we can work out most details. If we wait until next week to start talking at Round Table, we will be there all night.

If we all talk about the rules that we want, and how to play the game her in the forum, a few people can meet to set the rules for the next game. If we have too many people trying to make the rules, I think it would take too long and we would have too much detail.

After this next game we sit down and correct the rules for game 4.

Some of the rules I think we should have are:

No hiding the TB. Just place it in the cache.

We need to remove the 5 mile rule. What happens is the same cache gets hit too many times. Let’s open this game up for everyone.

We need to get more people into the game. Open it up for others.

Avoid points for holding the TB. Make the game go faster (meaning we are not waiting for people to drop the TB).

January 17, 2004

********************okay how does this sound***************’

Play like Tennis. Team North (TN) gets the TB. They place in South in Pierce County at noon. (That’s one point)

Hours noon-2:00 no added points. At 2:01 TN gets another point. Every hour until Team South (TS) picks up the TB, TN gets a point.

Once TS picks up the TB, no more points are earned. TS then must place it in a cache in King County. Then they earn one point to placing the TB in the cache, and after two hours they will start earning points.

This will give each team a chance to play, and earn points. The key is how quickly the other team can return the TB.

Add this in there… it looks like we have enough players to set some type of limit. If TravisL finds the TB in a cache and then places it in another cache, then he must wait until 5 players from his team places the TB before he can touch it again.

If there is a hand off… TravisL hands it to me, and I put it in a cache. We both must wait until 5 other people place the TB. (if the next person on our team Happy Gillmore hands it to Bilbo19 who hands it to Ajetpilot who then places it in a cache, counts as one. Then they all must wait.) So hand offs are okay, but it could hurt your team.

Of course there would be all kinds of other rules and stuff like that.

Just trying to think outside the box and come up with a better game. I really like playing, and I love the fact that I have to keep tabs on it. I’m really tired after only 4 hours of sleep, but I had fun today.

2.5k · January 17, 2004

I really like this idea from kiltsurfer. Actually both of the last two posts. Discussing this in the forum sets the tone for a meeting. Taking turns like you suggest removes some of the late night watching the email. One of the logs in the first game made reference to night hides being a bit out of line. I think that was Dayvi that said that. We might want to try to restrict the timing on things like that. Playing this game in the summer might be better then with the daylight available for evening caching.

Just a few more thoughts.

January 17, 2004

Pirating the cache was bad form.

VDS, this is BS and you know it. I did NOT pirate your cache! If I had, there would be nothing left. I traded up for every item I took. An apology is in order!

1.8k · January 17, 2004

I confess I'm confused!

Do you have to be "ON" a Team to be able to play?

If it's KC vs PC can't any body in King county play and visa-versa.

Pepper

Edited January 17, 2004 by Team SuperGenius

9.5k · January 17, 2004

this is BS and you know it

Wouldn't trading out all of the cache contents to avoid losing the potato after the 3 hour window expired be considered the same?

January 17, 2004

To get to a reasonable end and avoid ill feelin I will again offer the idea of team captains along with a referee. Lets continue venting for a week via the forums then let the three of them set the rules. Once game is in play, the captains can help check the fever that leads to problems!

January 17, 2004

this is BS and you know it

Wouldn't trading out all of the cache contents to avoid losing the potato after the 3 hour window expired be considered the same?

Simply no, it would not. Taking all the items without replacing them is pirating. Replacing all them items taken with brand new, still in the original packaging, tags attached, etc. is trading.

9.5k · January 17, 2004

I'm questioning the intent.

The potato was supposed to be "found" at the cache. You obviously "found" the potato at home after considerable time to inspect the contents without further interference from anybody in the North team walking up and taking it out from under your nose.

That to my perspective, smacks of running right into the intent of Rule 10, removing the cache from in front of the other team is unacceptable. It doesn't matter you left other contents or the ammo can or the log. Your intent was to keep us from recovering the potato till you had sufficient time past the 3 hour window to find the potato. That in and of itself was bad form.

January 17, 2004

Easy gents, this should all shake out once we determine if the game intent is to get rid of the hot spud or hog the ball till the clock runs out!

9.5k · January 17, 2004

Agreed.

January 17, 2004

No. You see, I resent being called a pirate. I did not pirate the cache. That is what this discussion is about. Name calling. See ya, boys. I'm going back to real geocaching. I've got a trip planned with W7WT to the Hood Canal on Sunday. I'm done with these little games.

January 17, 2004

I'm with Totem Lake.

Like I said before....just don't call me a @!$%yankee.

This game looked like fun at first....but when the neighbors are annoyed and cache contents are kidnapped...then I want nothing to do with it. This is not geocaching as I play it.

Lucy

January 17, 2004

I'm with Totem Lake.

Like I said before....just don't call me a @!$%yankee.

This game looked like fun at first....but when the neighbors are annoyed and cache contents are kidnapped...then I want nothing to do with it. This is not geocaching as I play it.

Lucy

Well, of course you're with Totem Lake. I promise I won't call you a "@!$%yankee" if you promise you won't call me a @!$%pirate... or a @!$%kidnapper. Can't we just get away from the name calling?!

January 17, 2004

how can the way Drinksmith concealed the TB be creative and the way Jetpilot found it not be. This is the first cache I have ever seen that the contents are hidden better then the cache.

January 17, 2004

I promise to not calll any one a bad name if they promise to abide by the geo rules..

January 17, 2004

I promise to not calll any one a bad name if they promise to abide by the geo rules..

I promise.

January 17, 2004

Easy gents, this should all shake out once we determine if the game intent is to get rid of the hot spud or hog the ball till the clock runs out!

I think that was decided the first time someone deliberately decided to hold it for nearly 48 hours.

Beyond any of the rule changes to the fundamental game of hot potato, I personally think there should be a "dead time" through the night during which game time is paused. Say midnight to 6 am, or so.

Having to have members of your team volunteer to stay up / get up in the wee hours because the other team seems to consist of insomniacs :unsure: would have been very draining after 100 days.

(Did Team South log a single drop or pick up in the daylight? I think we did, at least some that weren't after prime time...)

January 17, 2004

I'm thinking about the good thymes had caching; further, I'm thinking that I would like to declare / be on a team, but with firmer rules. Furthermore, if TravisL would like to have a true 'potato', I will take the time to hunt down my Idaho spud mascot, Spud, to be used as the actual potato. He's cute and has legs and arms... and like all potatoes, many eyes -- to keep an eye on each of you devilish cachers. No more taterantums -- let's get the game back on track and then count me in, please. - CT

Edited January 17, 2004 by CameraThyme

1.4k · January 17, 2004

I've stayed out of this so far and will continue to do so, with one exception.....

I will not let the name calling and finger pointing continue in this forum. It is not relevant to the topic. The events of this morning are ancient history. Each team acted based on their interpretation of the rules of this game and the general geocaching.com guidelines.

Stick to the topic of what to do from this point forward please.

Team Misguided

Geo-hot Potato Part II

Recommended Posts

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment