Frozen Caches

38.2k · January 14, 2004

With the cold weather we've been experiencing in this area, I've encountered several caches that were frozen solid in their hiding spot. With the ammo boxes, I was willing to give a few swift kicks with my heel, or knocks with a stick to jar them loose, but I'm sure the Tupperware caches would shatter if I tried something similar (and on a recent maint trip, I couldn't loosen my ammo box, even with the hammer I had along).

A lot of geocachers use the signing of the logbook as the criterion for a find.

So how would YOU log it. You found the cache, but couldn't get in to sign the log book...how do you treat it...found, or not found? And if the walk was a long one....say several miles, would that change your opinion?

Edited January 15, 2004 by briansnat

1.4k · January 14, 2004

Flamethower!

January 14, 2004

Icepick....but be sure not to leave it in the cache !!!

Seriously I would contact the cache owners and see if they would except your find without signing the log.

Edited January 14, 2004 by woof n lulu

9.2k · January 14, 2004

Ask the cache owner.

I've had a grand total of one cache that couldn't be dislodged from its icy hiding place. It was a multicache, so we had put a fair amount of effort into hiking through the snow, gathering clues and so forth. The container was a plastic ammo box, so I couldn't use as much force as I normally would use on an indestructible metal ammo box. After 15 minutes of digging and chipping with no luck, we gave up. My daughter was cold, wet and exhausted. I craved gin.

I sent an e-mail to the cache owner, describing the hiding spot and the cache container in great detail (I even copied down the info. on the manufacturer's label). I explained that I didn't want to damage his cache. I asked him whether I should log a find. I offered to go back and sign the logbook later, as the cache is located within 5 minutes of an interstate exit that we pass frequently on the way to and from other cache destinations.

His answer? "Sure, no problem. I'm happy to see a visitor to our cache, it's been lonely this winter." Had he said "you really need to be in the logbook" I would have honored those wishes. And I still plan on signing that book one of these days - it was a nice little park and we could stop by, hopefully when the same owner hides a new cache nearby.

Signing the logbook is a pretty sacred rule for me, and for many others, but heck, there's limits.

7.4k · January 14, 2004

In my personal opinion, it would not be a find. I see it as similar to arriving at a cache site and finding it 30 feet up in a tree. You can see the cache, but the challenge now comes in retrieving it. In the case you describe, the cache is temporarily experiencing an increase in terrain rating, something that is to be expected in the winter. That said, I agree that it is up to the cache owner to make the final call.

I had a similar situation with this cache when I arrived in April and found it encased in ice. I logged a no find (although I should mention that I couldn't even see the container through all of it).

8.4k · January 14, 2004

With the cold weather we've been experiencing in this area, I've encountered several caches that were frozen solid in their hiding spot. With th ammo boxes, I was willing to give a few swift kicks with my heel, or knocks with a stick to jar them loose, but I'm sure the Tupperware caches would shatter if I tried something similar (and on a recent maint trip, I couldn't loosen my ammo box, even with the hammer I had along).

A lot of geocachers use the signing of the logbook as the criterion for a find.

So how would YOU log it. You found the cache, but couldn't get in to sign the log book...how do you treat it...found, or not found? And if the walk was a long one....say several miles, would that change your opinion?

This one is subjective. It has been debated in many forms.

Some local cachers found a cache that was shredded by a brush hog. The log book however, was not touched. Find or not? I say LTF and post an archive note.

Another local cache seem to get its log book stolen quite often. If I had found the cache at one of those times, I would have still logged the find.

My answer for a frozen cache is:

If you "know" it is actually the geocache you are seeking then it's a find. If not, post a note and come back later.

Sn :mad: :unsure: gans

Edited January 14, 2004 by Snoogans

3.9k · January 14, 2004

A little torch would be great for the ammo boxes. But the Tupperware caches..well... obviously that's not going work. Here, I found this. To answer your other question. I think if you find the cache you find the cache. I would log it as such.

3.9k · January 14, 2004

In my personal opinion, it would not be a find. I see it as similar to arriving at a cache site and finding it 30 feet up in a tree. You can see the cache, but the challenge now comes in retrieving it. In the case you describe, the cache is temporarily experiencing an increase in terrain rating, something that is to be expected in the winter. That said, I agree that it is up to the cache owner to make the final call.

I had a similar situation with this cache when I arrived in April and found it encased in ice. I logged a no find (although I should mention that I couldn't even see the container through all of it).

...but if a cache is 30 feet up in a tree it is the owners intent for it to be that difficult. If its an easy 1.5 cache that is encased in ice the intent of the owner is that the cache be found easily. Like I said if you found it you found it. I'll add that if in normal conditions it would be easily within arms reach then log it as a find. Maybe email the owner as well. Chances are you'll end up with the same story as Lep did.

January 14, 2004

Many stores in The Great White North sell window de-icing fluid which is some sort of alcohol that you spray on your windshields if you are too lazy to scrape them. It's pretty cheap and doesn't eat rubber or plastic, so it should be safe to use on plastic cache containers.

___________

Gorak

7.4k · January 15, 2004

...but if a cache is 30 feet up in a tree it is the owners intent for it to be that difficult.

I understand that, and that's why I said that it is up to the owner to make the final call. They will be able to say definitely whether or not they want winter conditions to be a part of the challenge. Personally, I don't feel right claiming a find on a cache that I was unable to retrieve, but I recognize that others might feel differently.

January 15, 2004

Many stores in The Great White North sell window de-icing fluid which is some sort of alcohol that you spray on your windshields if you are too lazy to scrape them. It's pretty cheap and doesn't eat rubber or plastic, so it should be safe to use on plastic cache containers.

___________

Gorak

Yeah, or you could just dump a big ol' bag of rocksalt on the cache.

I'm with Lep - I'd leave the cache as-is (not dump any foreign substance at the site!) just contact the cache owner and ask if he/she is cool with a find. If you see the cache, touch the cache, but the dadgum thing's frozen - sheesh - take the find.

It's not like these numbers matter a hill of beans anyway. :unsure:

January 15, 2004

Ask the owner, provide a description of why the find could not be logged. Then do as he suggests.

I probably would post a note, return when things thaw out, and at that time log the find.

Early on I had a couple cases that fell into this kind of category; one time I didn't sign log due to weather but logged the find, I returned a week later to sign the log.

The second time was a couple weeks after 9/11 the cache was hidden along a river under an bridge on I-5 in a popular park/fishing spot/rest area. At that time there were warnings about bridges on the west coast being bombed. I actualy touched the cache but there were too many people around for me to feel comfortable with pulling the ammo can out of its hiding spot. I did not log the find in that case and went on to the next cache.

I don't know if I did right in the first case, at the time with my limited experience it seemed the 'logical' thing to do. Today I would probably modify how I handled it.

In the second case I know that I did right because of the hyper-sensitive mood in the country and the location of the cache was begging for trouble. I would not change how I handled this situation at all.

January 15, 2004

I'd post a note describing the condition to warn other cachers and then go back when it warms up to get my find.

9.4k · January 15, 2004

It's up to the owner in these cases. If it were my cache and the cacher was from out of town, I'd say go ahead and log it. If the cacher was local, I might say log it and then give them a hard time about "But you didn't sign the logbook..." at the next event cache :unsure:

January 15, 2004

I don't think I'd log it as a find, but I wouldn't fault sombody else for doing it (with the cache owner's OK). I don't think the length of the walk would change anything.

January 15, 2004

I lean toward contacting the owner. If you describe the location well enough, they should be willing to let you log.

On a related note, I saw a log a while back where the cacher took credit for a cache when they arrived at the park after hours and the front gate to the park was closed. They even included a picture of the park gate in their log. What amazed me the most was that this was a cacher with a larger number of logs, but then may be that's how they got so many in the first place.

Edited January 15, 2004 by Natureboy44

1.3k · January 15, 2004

I probably should have asked the cache owner. The last time I was unable to retrieve a cache because it was encased in ice under a rock, I just left it and came back in the Spring to log it. It wasn't a long walk.

1.1k · January 15, 2004

I think it should be totally up to an individual if they find a cache but aren't able to sign the log book for whatever reason (frozen in ice, can't open, find a part of it), as to whether or not they log it as a find. I am actually very surprised at the number of people that say they would not log it as a find or would contact the owner...however when in reality looking at any of the logs for caches I am watching, almost NEVER does someone not log it as a find.

Since the object of the game is to find the hidden trasure, I would believe that if you find the cache, then you log it as a find (whether or not you are able to sign the log book or not), UNLESS it specifically states in the cache description that you need to sign the log (ie, if the cache is 15 feet up a tree, which I had to climb in one case to get the cache and sign the log, even though I wasn't thrilled about it, but did it anyways, because the description said to and that was part of the cache hunt). However, I can think of only 1 cache that I was not able to sign because of the current winter conditions, but since I did see the container and hence found it, well that equals a find...makes logical sense...found container = Log as a Find. But I do think this is a rare case where someone is not able to sign the log book. I can also think of 1 cache where I found a couple of the contents scattered in the woods (yes it definately was from the cache, since one of the items mentioned geocaching), and the container was gone, so since I did find it, again it would be logged as a found.

However in the numerous occasions where I find the hiding spot, but no cache there, or simply can't find where it is at all, it definately counts as a Did Not Find when loggin it online....whereas in many cases I do see numerous people logging finds simply because they were THERE, even if the cache was missing or they couldn't find it. And you know what, I have absolutely no problems with that, since they are playing the game their way and I play it mine...and no matter how we play it, we are all having fun, and that fun should not be taken away.

In summary, I believe it is up to the individual to decide, and no one should criticize them for their decisions....suggestions/opinions OK...make them feel bad about their actions, WRONG.

1.8k · January 15, 2004

Yeah, or you could just dump a big ol' bag of rocksalt on the cache.

hehehehe ... my friend's wife dumped 25 lbs. of rock salt on the concrete stairs in front of their house. The stairs dissolved. After that, they had a ramp where the stairs used to be :lol:

edit - changed 'cement' to 'concrete'.

Edited January 15, 2004 by clearpath

January 15, 2004

I beat em with a big freakin baseball bat.

4.5k · January 15, 2004

It's a find.

January 15, 2004

Personally, I don't feel right claiming a find on a cache that I was unable to retrieve, but I recognize that others might feel differently.

I would consider the act of physically touching the cache as de facto retrieval. I had a situation where I had found a cache but had absolutely nothing to write with, and it was a micro. I had emailed the cache owner with a description of the unique features of the cache and the logbook. Permission was granted for the find, and amicably so. So the first question is a personal; can you look at yourself in the mirror and say "yes, by golly, I touched it, I found it and its a find," or do you say "dang, I forgot the blinking blow torch again, I'm an abject failure." The next question is to the cache owner for permission to log as a find. In most cases, I think the answer would be yes.

January 15, 2004

From Last Winter

The cache in question was Keychain Trading Post. It was at the hollow base of a tree. The water running down the tree caused a 4-5 inch block of ice to form around the cache. The leaf covering made you unsure that it was really there. I made at least five stops, logging three. I don't think I've ever been so patient.

I'm sure I would have gotten credit, but it was much more fun stopping by when I could.

1.2k · January 15, 2004

There's a difference between finding a cache, and logging a find. You entered the coordinates into your gps, you traveled to the park or trail, you hiked the hike, you began your search, and you found the cache. I'd say that's a Find. Perhaps you couldn't open it and sign the logsheet, but you can still log your find online. I'd say go ahead and claim your find, by logging online. In your online log, be sure to report you couldn't open the container and sign the logsheet. This whole game is based on trust anyway. The cache owner is going to have to trust that you are telling the truth. I've seen logsheets so wet you couldn't sign it. Does that mean it's not a Find? I've seen micro logs so full of signatures, there was no more room to sign your name. Does that mean it's not a Find? In both cases, I would consider them as Finds. The online log claims the Find, and the Finder needs to tell the cache owner about the condition of the cache (Can't open it) or the logsheet (too wet to sign, or needs replacement). I can think of other conditions: Pirates came and looted the cache, taking the logsheet, but leaving the container behind. A forest fire comes through and burns up the contents, but leaves a charred ammo box. Both cases, the container is empty, or the contents burned up, but you still found it. It's not your fault the contents are gone. But...you still found it...so claim it.

January 15, 2004

I think I would agree with Laserman. If conditions prevented me from signing the log, I would post a note on the website (and maybe a digital photo) to indicate the find, then return later to "log" it.

3.9k · January 15, 2004

I think I would agree with Laserman. If conditions prevented me from signing the log, I would post a note on the website (and maybe a digital photo) to indicate the find, then return later to "log" it.

Yea, if you can take a photo with your GPS in the picture (kinda like a locationless cache) then there's no disputing the find.

January 15, 2004

brian .... check this old thread and you will answer your own question :lol:

38.2k · January 15, 2004

brian .... check this old thread and you will answer your own question

Actually that was a different scenario. What I'm talking about is finding a cache and touching the thing, but not being able to get it open it because of the weather. That thread was about people logging finds on caches they didn't even see, or touch.

2.5k · January 15, 2004

Take a picture with the cache in your hand and post it with your online log. Logbooks in the cache container are overrated in my opinion. This is where a code word would come in handy. If it was me, I would open it rather than walk away without logging a find, it just might take longer at the cache site.

January 15, 2004

Dont have the frozen cache problem in Texas but I once did a 4/3 and after finding, my pen was AWOL. This was a micro with only a log. I took some burnt wood from a camp fire and made a pencil. After the trouble I went to find, no way I wasnt gonna log it! Cave

4.8k · January 15, 2004

I would likely log it as a find, and then contact the cache owner. If they were unhappy about logging a find on it (I doubt anyone around here would care), I would change it to a note. Regardless, I would plan to get back to it in the future if possible to sign the log.

2.3k · January 15, 2004

hmm... no frozen caches here! 72 deg today! :lol:

3.9k · January 15, 2004

hmm... no frozen caches here! 72 deg today!

Aaaa. I remember those days. Seemed like only a week ago. Oh, yea. It was.

January 15, 2004

Funny that Briansnat started this thread.

The first and only cache I found frozen in it hiding spot was a cache by Briansnat and Artful Dodger: The Passaic Hidaway. It was this time of year, it was very cold. The ground was covered in inches of snow and ice.

I actually managed to damage the cache container while trying to retrieve it and was not able to remove it.

I e-mailed the hiders to let them know the damage I caused and they sent someone out with a blow torch.

I still feel bad about it. Thankfully, it was the only time that has happened to me.

So, to reply to the thread . . . yes, I logged the find. Am I bad??

Happy caching and stuff! :lol:

Edited January 15, 2004 by Geo Ho

38.2k · January 15, 2004

The first and only cache I found frozen in it hiding spot was a cache by Briansnat and Artful Dodger: The Passaic Hidaway. It was this time of year, it was very cold. The ground was covered in inches of snow and ice.

I actually managed to damage the cache container while trying to retrieve it and was not able to remove it.

I e-mailed the hiders to let them know the damage I caused

Yeah, I've been meaning to talk to you about that :lol:

Edited January 16, 2004 by briansnat

January 15, 2004

Uh oh!!!

:lol:

3.9k · February 14, 2004

This topic just came up in anther thread so I figured I'd resurrect this one just in case someone has something to add. I just came across this little dilemma last weekend on this cache. I seriously wanted to take a photo of the cache to prove the find and move on. But Squealy insisted on hacking away at it with his kabar. The cache was not meant to be that difficult to log. Unlike a cache that is 30 feet up in a tree or a cache like Wheretogo?Vertigo! that I see at least one log from a while back where the guy says "I saw it and stared at it for a while but couldn't get to it. Found it though, Thanks for the cache."

BTW, after a half hour of hacking away at that cache we did get it out. And for the record I do feel better knowing we signed the log.

3.5k · February 14, 2004

I know of one cache where the owner froze a decon container in a block of ice and hid it in a particularly difficult spot. The logging requirements were that you had to actually log the cache and that the container could NOT be removed from the park at all. The first couple finders loved it so much that they re-froze the container themselves.

Me, I just waited until things warmed up a bit.

Bret

February 14, 2004

To me, it's a "find," as long as opening the cache wasn't intended to be part of the puzzle. It seems that if you explain the circumstances in the internet log the owner should be understanding, especially if you have a photo.

Why not sit by the fireplace with a good book until Spring?

-Bob

p.s. Did you try peeing on it?

3.9k · February 14, 2004

To me, it's a "find," as long as opening the cache wasn't intended to be part of the puzzle. It seems that if you explain the circumstances in the internet log the owner should be understanding, especially if you have a photo.

Why not sit by the fireplace with a good book until Spring?

-Bob

p.s. Did you try peeing on it?

Sit by the Fireplace? You little Mary Girl get out there and cache! And no I didn't pee on it. That would have worked though. Don't anybody get any bright idea's. Peeing on caches is strictly prohibited.

4.7k · February 14, 2004

ice pick. duh.

3k · February 14, 2004

In my opinion, humble as it is, I think that if you absolutely cannot open it, dislodge it, get inside it somehow, without damaging the cache container, that snapping a photo of it in place, with your GPS and/or face in the picture, and arranging to send the picture to the owner, so as not to log a spoiler picture on the cache page, and the owner says ok, then you have a find. (breathe in)

February 14, 2004

Somewhat OT, but Ive had caches Ive visited where I have forgotten a writing utensil. I logged those found. No biggie in my mind

1.8k · February 14, 2004

I can only remember two caches that I've logged as finds but didn't sign the logbook. One was a dog themed cache with a can of dogfood, a dog chew toy, and a chew rope. I didn't sign the log book, because there wasn't one -- the cache had been ransacked, the dog food was opened, and the contents were tossed around the area, including the container with "geocaching.com" written on the lid.

The other was a piece of PVC pipe with a threaded cap. I easily removed the pipe from its hiding place, but try as I might, I couldn't remove the cap. Dirt had gotten in the threads, and although I tried everything I could think of to remove the cap, it wouldn't budge. I mentioned this in my 'found' log.

There's been a few more where I've been able to see the cache (hanging in a tree, for example), or knew where the cache was (on top of a 20 foot pillar), but couldn't get to it. Those get 'not found' logs.

February 14, 2004

I've run into a semi-similar situation involving a beaver lodge and mud. I've got your attention don't I? The cache owners had placed it on a beaver lodge during the summer and in the fall when I went to find the cache I discovered the resident beaver had been mudding the lodge preparing for winter. The ammo can was buried under several inches of fresh mud. I wasn't about to mess up the poor rodent's home with the snow about to fly so I contacted the owners, who were good friends, and they told me to log it as a find and turned the cache into a virtual. It was a pretty area after all and worth the trip.

3.1k · February 14, 2004

I contacted the owners, who were good friends,

Ummmm, no they aren't.

Frozen Caches

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