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So then if I leave my bike at the trail head in the public park, and hike up the foot trail (where bikes are prohibited), but fail to leave a note on my bike saying please don't STEAL me, your family says it is OK to STEAL my bike???

 

Let me guess this must have been advice from your cousin Vinny!

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QUOTE ( @ --)
So then if I leave my bike at the trail head in the public park, and hike up the foot trail (where bikes are prohibited), but fail to leave a note on my bike saying please don't STEAL me, your family says it is OK to STEAL my bike???

 

Let me guess this must have been advice from your cousin Vinny!

Case and point, this is exaclty what i was referring to

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15??? I was thinking a bit younger.

 

I'd like to know what he feels he's accomplising. Anyone who's ever worked out an issue with an authority figure knows that you don't start the conversation out with something like, "We are going to have to agree to disagree... and that you are a liar." Nothing could possibly be worked out like that.

 

It's pretty obvious that he's just interested in causing trouble. What ever happened to all of us ignoring him?

 

F_M

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I think this is a sad comment on how some people know no sense of perspective or can view problems in a realistic light.

 

Anyone who gets THAT wound up over a GEOCACHING dispute is undoubtedly unbalanced in some way.

 

Subigo, I suggest, and I'm not being sarcastic here, that you see your doctor.

 

I'm annoyed by you, but I also feel concern for your health .

 

I know whereof I speak.....

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Having dealt with people like this before, I really think that it's best that none of us make any more comments in public to him. I've already made the suggestion to TPTB to make a deeper investigation, and it would help both TPTB and the community if we let this one die off the forum pages. I can't give all the details, but I can give enough that you will understand my purpose if you want to email me.

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Whether something left in a park or taken from a park is theft is irrelevant. Besides, Subigo seemed to talk only about an item left, not an item that was later taken. Once taken, in my humble pesonal lawyer opinion, it seems like theft to me regardless of who owns it. But, I'll repeat that it is irrelevant.

 

What is relevant is that GC.com is a listing service and forum host that can legitimately ban anyone they want. There might be disagreements with the choices made, and Lord knows there have been plenty of topics about moderation, but they can do it. It is their choice. I am not a big fan of bans, but so far I definitely agree on this one.

 

Anyway, Subigo, I guess I am really missing out on why you chose to be nasty about things instead of constructively trying to work things through. I read the thread about the multi-cache. Sure, it is annoying to go to a lot of work and not get the cache approved, but the rules are there for a reason. Thinking about the rules ahead of time and working politely with the approver can save everyone a ton of headaches. I posted a cache awhile back that was right on the .1 mile rule. I knew it could be a problem and so I placed it, but explained things in a note to the approver. I covered how it would not get confused with another cache. I also admitted that I could put it elsewhere, but explained why the other location was not very good. Like your cache, mine also was fairly expensive (and large), and after a 4 hour search, the location I chose was definitely the best I could find for that type of cache. The cache was quickly approved. If it hadn't been, I would have moved it. I was prepared for that. Would I have been annoyed if it was not approved? Sure. Nobody wants to go re-work a cache and move it. But would I complain or blame the approver, or GC.com? No! Because I knew what I was getting into, that there could be a problem, and that the approver would be doing his or her job and doing so for reasons that I respect.

 

Anyway, Subigo, I don't know if you are a troll as some have accused you of or just someone who got really frustrated. Regardless, being constructive and working with other people is a pretty good way of life. Acting like a flat out jerk doesn't tend to get people places and I doubt it causes much personal happiness. If it does, well then I feel sad. I like to think that people are better than that and can't imagine how that can make anyone feel personally good about his or herself. You also obviously know that making a pirate site doesn't go over well. Regardless, how people see you is your choice. Your actions define you. If you dislike how you are defined, and thus, how you are treated by others, then reconsider your own actions.

 

I'll add this too. If you just like the drama of it all (I really can't tell what your motives are), well OK, but isn't that kind of degrading to yourself?

 

Now I also agree with the "don't feed the trolls" idea and wasn't going to post in the original threads on this. But since moderators have addressed this directly, I figured I would post now, especially since I was unclear about Subigo's motives. But I do recommend ignoring abusive posts and people.

Edited by carleenp
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I'm just curious as to why we are feeding this guy so much attention? We have even started a whole topic on him...actually several. Now what happens when the next attention starved person wants to play with us?

 

Maybe I'm not grasping this...but hey...I've never claimed to be the bright one in the bunch.

 

El Diablo

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Odd.......

 

(1) Get mad at GC.COM and then threaten to take stuff that does not belong to GC.COM, but rather belongs to hundreds of other people. Lets hope he doesn't get mad at his city government and starts burning down peoples' houses.

 

(2) In front of the whole Internet, commit the crime of extortion* (felony), across state lines (add in the feds), and if he uses a telephone line** for any part of this you can add the FCC. It takes a certain amount of carelessness to rack up all those problems in this short of a time, and in such a public place.

 

* Extortion is the threat of taking an adverse action if someone doesn't do what you demand. Obviously there are a lot of qualifiers, but it doesn't have to involve money. And all it needs is the threat. He doesn't actually have to do anything else.

 

** His offer to have people call him, or if someone does join his cause and that person uses a phone line. And so on.

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This is seriously disturbing. Not just the intent of our pirate friend, but the actions of some of the posters here.

 

Carleenp made the best response to date. (Why would anyone be surprised?) Alot of the others... Well, I know I've made comments in the past that upon reflection I've been embarassed to know I've made. There are plenty of posts made on this issue that should fall in that category.

 

Does anyone not see that the actions of a select few posters here might have caused the problem in the first place? If all of the responses to Subigo's original post had been civil, then he might not have taken offense and gone into action. Yes, I know, he might have done it anyway or further down the road, but we don't know that.

 

Further, it is obvious that he is fairly articulate and bright. But what's to happen the next time the forum bullies create a pirate and this time he is even more savvy than those that have come before? Quietly creating bogus accounts using proxies, creating overseas web accounts under false names or using protected domain name accounts, remailers, collecting email addresses from user's home pages, and quietly referring all malcontents to this new fully anonymous pirate site.

 

I'm not going to post the complete recipe of how it can be done, but it very well could be unstoppable and larger than you can even possibly imagine. It could very well destroy all caching activity in active areas. Yeah, it's quite bit of a "Chicken Little" scenerio, but then again, so was the idea of someone threatening to steal caches.

 

I'm not a fan of heavy-handed moderation, but there shouldn't be open season on newbies who complain.

 

I sincerely hope a lesson has been learned here.

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I can either make 1000 accounts every time I want to post on your forums, or you can unban my subigo account AND let my posts be posted without moderation and I will tone it down a little. I will not post any direct links to my site, or promote stealing caches.

 

What do you do when he demands something outside the rules? You don't give it to him! Hydee's e-mail was enjoyable to read since it made a lot of sense. I agree that ignoring the problem is no way to go but I also don't believe in giving in to someone who demands that he be unbanned before he tones it down.

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Does anyone not see that the actions of a select few posters here might have caused the problem in the first place? If all of the responses to Subigo's original post had been civil, then he might not have taken offense and gone into action.

Would you be willing to say which posts crossed the line and which posts did not? I don't think mine did. Your opinion might be different. If you can tell me politely where I went wrong I would appreciate it. But right now I have no way of knowing if you are including my post in your assessment or not.

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Does anyone not see that the actions of a select few posters here might have caused the problem in the first place?  If all of the responses to Subigo's original post had been civil, then he might not have taken offense and gone into action.

Would you be willing to say which posts crossed the line and which posts did not? I don't think mine did. Your opinion might be different. If you can tell me politely where I went wrong I would appreciate it. But right now I have no way of knowing if you are including my post in your assessment or not.

Bons,

 

I don't think he was referring to your "actions" quite honestly I don't see how the actions of anyone here would "cause" this type of behavior. Its about responsibility and I don't think its fair to place that responsibility of one person on the shoulders of others. We all must take responsibility for our own actions.

 

The devil made me type that. :tongue:

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It seems to me that the easiest way to cause Subigo to stop his version of the game is this.

 

When a cacher finds one of his cards he goes to Subigo's site, finds the new coords and returns the cache to where it should have been. Send an e-mail to the owner of the cache that you have returned the cache and ask him to check that the location is correct. No post or comment about it to anyone else, no post on Subigo site, no comments on CG.com page about the cache being moved. NOTHING. The only people that would know the cache was moved would be the owner, finder and Subigo. How much fun would that be for Subigo to create a site, move caches, pay registration fees for the site and have noone know about it. Heck if I lived closer I would monitor Subigo's site and make it a personal endevor to replace caches without his knowledge. Kinda a lone ranger thing.

 

p.s. If I ever need a lawyer I choose Carleenp. Smart, Irish, and cute too.

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I do not believe this person's actions were not caused harsh responses in the forums. It seems like he/she was already wound up and looking for a fight. "kind of mad" about the multicache not being approved was either and understatement, or smoke screen. The approver sounded willing to work on getting the cache approved with some modifications.

 

Hydee's email regarding lifting the ban sounded reasonable too- follow the rules that everyone else is governed by, and you are back in. This guy wants the account ban lifted, no moderation, and (the old trust me) he'll tuen down the volume. Why bend over backwards for this user? <rant off>

 

Seriously, this is a community like any other. We have to respect each other. When someone steps far outside the rules governing that community, the community can suffer.

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subigo's posts reveal an element of risk: We have posted all our caches for the world to see and do with them what they may. He has publically opened Pandora's box.

 

If GC.COM does what they can to calm this person down, the next person (or maybe the same person) will have larger demands.

I can see it now: "Approve my new cache called WMD (completely buried, near a bridge, at the foot of a dam, containing tactical nuclear weapons) or else I will start stealing caches."

 

If GC doesn't give in, then this person might actually take some caches (today?) and then post "I told you so" messages and try again. And, there are people of a similar mentality that may join him for the fun of it.

 

I am not sure there is a good answer to all this.

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Please for everyones sanity and the sake of this thread would those who are trying to take this thread off topic please stop. I understand the reasoning but this thread needs to stay on topic

 

Thank you

OK then. My post went bye bye. But seriously, I know we are supposed to stay on topic But, what purpose is this thread serving?

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I seriously am concerned about the purpose for this thread as well. I've only been a user for a short time, but I've never seen a thread dedicated solely to one bad person. When J5 got banned, did we open a thread and lament his actions? No. I doubt anyone knew he'd been banned. If J5 emailed hydee and told her he would "tone it down" if she would lift his ban, would she? Not likely. So why the special offers to subigo? It doesn't really make any sense. If I were one of the "banned" and heard about this, and it actually happened that subigo came back and was allowed to post when I wasn't, I'd really be ticked and justifiably so. But, I don't plan on getting banned.....but does anyone?

 

So....just curious, why the special treatment? :tongue:

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snip....When J5 got banned, did we open a thread and lament his actions?

 

J5 did plenty of his own "lamenting". :)

 

If Pete Rose can get into the Hall of Fame surely we can forgive Subigo his infractions? Oh, wait. Pete Rose ISN'T in the hall of Fame. He has to admit wrongdoing and apologize first. :tongue:

 

If Subigo hadn't been so mediocre at pretending to be confused and mad it would be easier to understand his motive here.

 

Edited to fix "Forgiving Subigo his heart attack"

Edited by Johnnie Stalkers
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snip....When J5 got banned, did we open a thread and lament his actions?

 

J5 did plenty of his own "lamenting". :)

 

If Pete Rose can get into the Hall of Fame surely we can forgive Subigo his infarctions? Oh, wait. Pete Rose ISN'T in the hall of Fame. He has to admit wrongdoing and apologize first. :tongue:

 

If Subigo hadn't been so mediocre at pretending to be confused and mad it would be easier to understand his motive here.

Just to clarify, an infarction is a heart attack.

 

Back on topic, does anyone see my point, or was it all hot air?

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Back on topic, does anyone see my point, or was it all hot air?

I see your point and I know there is an answer but I'm still trying to think of it. Well, I don't know the real answer and think that hydee would be the one to answer that but we can surmise.

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Thank you, Carleenp. I understand too well about things we don't know about in the whole subigo scenario, and it's probably best that the regular users don't know these things. Just makes it harder to understand when we don't, however.

 

BTW, I like that avatar better than the last few, but still like the one you used through Christmas better. :tongue:

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Back on topic, does anyone see my point, or was it all hot air?

I see your point and I know there is an answer but I'm still trying to think of it. Well, I don't know the real answer and think that hydee would be the one to answer that but we can surmise.

Well, I'm sure she has a reason, but it may be priveleged info, as I suggested in my last post.

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For now I have removed the moderation post restriction on the 'sub igo' account, I will be removing he ban on the 'subigo' account if he/she agrees to follow the site terms of use, forum guidelines, not post links to his site or promote stealing caches.

 

I have made it clear Groundspeak and the majority of the community do not agree with his planned activities.

 

I also want to make it known I do not completly agree with the response I have seen from the community. Voicing your opinion is welcomed, but be reasonable, threats and name calling are not necessary.

 

I realize all of you may not agree with all of the decisions being made in this situation, if you would like to comment to me or give me suggestions please do so via email.

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Lets see if we can let this thread drop off the page folks. Maybe the subject of this thread will drop off also. What started out as a somewhat reasonable complaint about a cache not being approved has turned into a mini-series drama that we all created and continue to write with every post. The whole thing is truly absurd. Let ADHD boy get over his hard feelings, if we stop talking about it it should only take about a week. Hopefully he'll get over it, come to an agreement with the site about his cache and maybe even enjoy geocaching again someday. Whatever, who cares. I'm done with it.

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I seriously am concerned about the purpose for this thread as well. I've only been a user for a short time, but I've never seen a thread dedicated solely to one bad person. When J5 got banned, did we open a thread and lament his actions? No. I doubt anyone knew he'd been banned. If J5 emailed hydee and told her he would "tone it down" if she would lift his ban, would she? Not likely. So why the special offers to subigo? It doesn't really make any sense. If I were one of the "banned" and heard about this, and it actually happened that subigo came back and was allowed to post when I wasn't, I'd really be ticked and justifiably so. But, I don't plan on getting banned.....but does anyone?

 

So....just curious, why the special treatment? :D

He is someones buddy so they didn't ban him.

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I still dont understand your reasoning sub igo, why should Groundspeak give you "free advertising" when they don't agree with what you are doing? Why would anyone promote something they don't agree with? And also why do you make demands and say you'll change if these demands are met? No one is holding anyone else hostage here buddy.

Edited by pnew
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Well I have read all the threads and posts about this subject, even some before they were deleted or moderated.

 

You started out complaining about not getting an approval for a cache and were promptly flamed. This was not right! But then you started talking about changing the game and no rules and taking caches and moving them and such and I don't recall anything being said about this being done with the owners permission.

 

Yes there are other local versions around the country.

 

Yours could be one of them and become popular but only if done with the owners permission or opt in by listing at your site.

 

If you have different rules or guidlines there I ask that you only use a couple that are used here: not in national parks (there are enough problems there for now)

and no digging so that we don't upset the landowners landwe are trespassing on when we play our games.Even Public land is owned by people like you and I and some may not ok with hiding things not digging holes. That is how I feel about my land.

 

Aand please no one flame him he has been allowed to post his thoughts in the forums by the moderators.

 

edit for clarity

Edited by ironman114
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Just because you want GC.com to endorse a new "game", that doesn't mean they should at all... The idea that just because you want a new feature added to the site, a new version of the game, that they should do it just because you want it is asking a little bit too much.

 

From the response received on the forums, it's plain to see that not many people like your idea. I can't really see that ANYone likes it. This is probably as much because of the way you presented the idea as it is about anything else.

 

Anyways, to expect them to list "stash-friendly" caches here is silly. No game in the world has ever catered to every want of the consumer - here's an idea for you though:

 

Geocaching was started from the ground up - not long ago really. If you really think your idea is great and that gc.com is really missing out on an opportunity, start hiding your own caches, list them on your own site, invite others to list on your site (do NOT advertise on these forums though) Those caches can be stashed to your heart's content.

 

I'd like to add one more thing. In your email you pretty much say that cachers tend to take this game too seriously... well, I would agree with you if it were just about the game. For me though, this is about the game, NATURE, and most of all, the people I've met along the way. I'd have to say that in going to several events, I've made at least a hundred new friends. I care about these people, and I care about the caches that they have gone through the trouble of hiding. You said,

Some people are treating it as a way of life.
For some people, it IS a way of life. For some people, this is about getting out, being in nature, having friends, and staying fit. I know people who wouldn't get any exercise were it not for this game - it is literally saving their lives (or at least adding years to it) Just because you don't take it seriously, that doesn't mean that it's not extremely important to others.
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The fact is GC.com CAN expand this sport, but they will not even acknowledge the other geocaching sites like navicache and opencaching. Give me one good reason (other than they want to remain a monopoly) why navicache/opencaching should not be posted in the "links" section of geocaching.com - just one good reason. If you can do that I will call of some off the stashes planned for tomorrow.

 

Navicache and Opencache do not follow all the rules Geocaching does. By this I'm talking about rules and methods in approving caches. Navicache approves right away and then looks to see if it meets their criteria. Navicache feels a little differently about virtual caches than geocaching does.

 

Do you understand what having someone elses link to their site on your site means? It means you approve wholeheartedly of what they are doing. Does geocaching.com have any control whatsoever of what navicache does. The answer is no. If Navicache and Geocaching agreed on every point to a T there would really be no point to "another site". The fact that there are others means there are differences in the sites. Differnces in opinions on the way things should be run as I mentioned above.

 

Lastly, Geocaching is the biggest game in town. It may seem like a monopoly because it has done successful enough to keep the majority pleased. Is it a monoply? No. Do they try and keep it as much of a monopoly as they can? I see no outreached fly swatter attempting to shoot other sites down. I don't understand why the biggest name in town is supposed to turn around and help everyone else it doesn't share all the same views with.

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