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parkrrrr
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I think thats a great idea, but, its not really hard to understand why there are no caches in South Central. I know part of the reputation of South Central has to do with a stereotype, but at the same time, much of it is true. I wouldnt go looking for a cache in Compton or anything like that... :huh:

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Is it racial politics or the economics of owning a GPS? Is it a reflection of fear of a skin color or a desire not to walk around looking at a $200+ peice of electronics in an area of extreme poverty?

 

Can we have a map showing the average income of the population? That strikes me as a lot more accurate than measuring their "race". (For the reasoning behind that statement please read the short article "cablinasian like me" about Tiger Woods.)

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Well, you can't really say that there have been no caches there. I remember Flash Point, Rose Garden, and there are also a couple of virtual caches near/on the USC campus. Now I do realize that the USC campus is not really South Central, but.... walk 2 blocks south and you will see what I mean. Also there is that really cool/strange/scary little chicken resteraunt on the SW corner off-campus.

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Now how about a map of the crime rate? No need for stereotypes and prejudice, or speculation as to why, just simply "is it safe?"

I was going to pass commenting on this thread until I read Dave's comment. The link Bons posted is a good summation of racial issues in America, but it left off one little thing- Tiger's comments didn't start that little problem, it was Fuzzy Zoeller's comments. The real problem is not how people see themselves, but how others see them. Tiger sees cablinasian, but a lot of people see black.

 

Dave's comment above hits at the heart of the issue. The "liberal media", (why someone would think the media is liberal is beyond me), constantly reports crime. I saw a stat that showed crime reporting on the evening news has gone up 600% as crime in the US has been decreasing. So crime is down, but Compton and South Central still have notorious reputations for crime. You hear about the crime, but you don't see the nice neighborhoods that exist there.

 

So, does this have anything to do with Geocaching? YEP, sure does. This whole thread is about Geocaching in South Central, and the fear associated with doing something like that. Guys, I hate to tell you this, but I have more to fear than any of you. Study crime statistics. The majority of crime committed by blacks is against blacks (>90%).

 

I say go and enjoy.

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The real problem is not how people see themselves, but how others see them.

...

You hear about the crime, but you don't see the nice neighborhoods that exist there.

Which is exactly what the "artist" behind this piece of performance art was trying to get across, though the web page couched the point in so much pomo-speak that it became nearly unintelligible.

 

I'd love to hear from people who've actually done the cache. Did it have the desired effect on you? How does it feel to be the unwitting subject of a social experiment? Would you go back and spend money in that neighborhood?

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Is it racial politics or the economics of owning a GPS? Is it a reflection of fear of a skin color or a desire not to walk around looking at a $200+ peice of electronics in an area of extreme poverty?

 

Poverty does not cause crime. Immorallity causes both crime and poverty, though.

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I can tell you the reason why there are no caches there.

You're all missing one key thing.

 

There is little or no public property there. As I traveled around that area I saw nothing but businesses. That is the key for the area. It is mostly warehouse businesses. I don't think there are very many public areas there to place caches properly and legally. I'm sure there may be some public parks there, but I never saw one.

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Looks like something I have to do right after Danny takes me geocaching in Central Park at night.

Well, I've already done the dboggny Central Park at night tour so it looks like it's time for a trip out west. I am sorry that the cache logs are so short. Sounds like a good place to go hear some great music. Sax, piano, drums, murals, art, culture and more....667298_200.jpg

Photo from DruMorgan's Log. Hope you don't mind Dru.

Edited by Planet
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Poverty does not cause crime.  Immorallity causes both crime and poverty, though.

Could you expound on that statement? I think I understand what you're trying to say, but I'm not sure.

I would caution all about going too far with this type of discussion. (Edit: Sam, I'm not saying you should not answer Sparky's question, though.)

 

We are tangenting off into speculative political discussions. That is more of a "lose-lose" discussion than some of the cache problem issues that are discussed in this forum. Honestly, this may be more of an issue for the regional forums rather than for the Geocaching Topics Forum. It is a specific regional issue, and unless you have actually been there it would be hard to speculate about what is going on in a small area of CA. If this was in the regional forums, then local Los Angeles cachers can decide if it is an issue and then if or how to deal with it.

 

Just my opinion from a moderators standpoint.

Edited by mtn-man
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We are tangenting off into speculative political discussions. 

As Calvin once said, verbing weirds language.

 

Honestly, this may be more of an issue for the regional forums rather than for the Geocaching Topics Forum.  It is a specific regional issue, and unless you have actually been there it would be hard to speculate about what is going on in a small area of CA.  If this was in the regional forums, then local Los Angeles cachers can decide if it is an issue and then if or how to deal with it.

 

I'm not sure I agree. I know I've read logs on my Clue cache that would indicate the same sort of discomfort with a couple of the waypoints you have to visit to do it, and the idea of geocaching as performance art seems like something we can all think about and express opinions on. There's nothing special about LA in this case, other than that that's where the first such social experiement using us as guinea pigs took place.

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I would caution all about going too far with this type of discussion. (Edit: Sam, I'm not saying you should not answer Sparky's question, though.)

 

We are tangenting off into speculative political discussions. That is more of a "lose-lose" discussion than some of the cache problem issues that are discussed in this forum. Honestly, this may be more of an issue for the regional forums rather than for the Geocaching Topics Forum. It is a specific regional issue, and unless you have actually been there it would be hard to speculate about what is going on in a small area of CA. If this was in the regional forums, then local Los Angeles cachers can decide if it is an issue and then if or how to deal with it.

 

Just my opinion from a moderators standpoint.

I agree, it's a subject that needs to be tip-toed around, and that's what bothers me. True, not many of my self-moderated thoughts would be either politically correct, nor would they be appropriate for geocaching forums. It's just a shame that I have to think this way at all, and that really sticks in my craw. I think I'll have to ignore this thread, due to the chance that something I may say could be misconstrued as an attack, or as a racially insensitive remark, and I certainly wouldn't want that to happen, and it goes against my moral fiber to do those things. I just found the whole topic to be interesting, much as I find a dead and decaying animal interesting and disgusting at the same time.

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Now how about a map of the crime rate? No need for stereotypes and prejudice, or speculation as to why, just simply "is it safe?"

The maps provided do really provide an interesting look at things. I guess everybody will come away with a different feeling of what they mean.

 

But the point on crime rate is hitting the nail right on the head. There are areas where I live that I would not go into at night (maybe even not at anytime) and they would be considered "white" areas. On the other side of the coin there are plenty of "black" areas I would have no problem going into during the day or night. But lets be honest to a large degree the factor that shifts the thinking is income level. I don't think there is anybody ever worried about being in an upscale community. That is where the stereotypes come into play. I am not saying it is right or wrong but I think that is just the way it is.

 

Team Tecmage: I am going to have to disagree with some of your points, that is OK, but this is not the place to debate them. But in general I can agree with your theme. And your point on black on black vs black on white crime is dead on. Nobody seems to talk about that.

 

In general just use your common sense. If you live in the area you know what the deal is. If you are not from the area, it is just something else to consider being in an area you are not familiar with. Be it Compton or anywhere else, the same rules apply.

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Team Tecmage: I am going to have to disagree with some of your points, that is OK, but this is not the place to debate them. But in general I can agree with your theme. And your point on black on black vs black on white crime is dead on. Nobody seems to talk about that.

 

No, quite the contrary. Everyone touts this irrelevant fact in order to use it as a red herring to lead people from the RELEVANT fact of 90% of crime involving blacks and whites consisting of blacks being the perpetrator. THAT is something you won't hear except from a few brave souls like this:

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=3691

 

As for your unnamed areas that are supposedly all-white yet dangerous and the upscale black ones, that seems to fly in the face of everything I have ever seen..... I feel perfectly safe running at any hour of the night in an all white neighborhood I know of. Meanwhile, the non-white areas are not that safe during the day. This is in the same city - BRYAN, TEXAS and the examples are within a mile. Sharp contrasts can also be shown in Dallas (in some cases only blocks away). I can give you street locations if you care to provide locations in your example.

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WOW! What a can of worms this is!

 

I agree that the press over reports crime and causes a lot of unnecessary fear. But then, that's their job. People being good does not sell newspapers.

 

I have had a hard time with this issue with my own kids. I have carried a gun for the past 25 or so years (ex cop) and the kids, knowing this, have formed some totally WRONG opinions about the safety of walking the streets. I have unwittingly fostered unnecessary fear in them, my motivation being only to equip them for survival.

 

It seems that in my attempts to make them "street-smart" and my own example (packing), the boy, at least, has gotten the idea that Indianapolis is not a safe place to be, while truthfully, Indy is one of the (statistically) safest big cities in the U.S.

 

Part of his misconception stems from the fact that he has grown up in the country and does not understand city ways.

 

I think this is a common misconception among people who live in the 'burbs. The only thing they know about the inner city is what the media tells them- and that is ALWAYS bad.

 

The truth is that the inner cities are not much different than the 'burbs per capita wise. There are MANY good people in the cities, but the FEW criminals give the whole place a bad rep.

 

On the other hand, it only takes ONE deadly encounter... is it worth the risk?

 

Poverty is a factor, but poverty does not cause crime. Criminals (no offense Criminal) cause crime.

 

I wonder sometimes if I don't need to take my kids on a walk through a "bad" neighborhood at night without my piece just to show them that they don't need to be afraid. But then again, there aint no sense taking unnecessary chances. This would violate my #2 rule of packing: Don't go anywhere packing that you wouldn't go without it. (i.e. Don't look for trouble)

 

So there you go. The "perception" and the "fear" win out. I'd say that's it in a nutshell.

 

Oh, if anyone cares, #1 is don't shoot yourself. LOL

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I'd have to agree with Team Tecmage. As a (very) white person, I have been in the projects in Philadelphia with no trouble. Central Park never bothered me either.

 

Treat people with respect, and you usually get treated with respect. Well... except for the time I wasn't served at a restaraunt in Elizabeth NJ, but that was a very unusual case.

 

Just be nice to people & be aware of your surroundings.

 

Heh, this from a country-boy cracker...

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Everyone touts this irrelevant fact in order to use it as a red herring to lead people from the RELEVANT fact of 90% of crime involving blacks and whites consisting of blacks being the perpetrator.

 

...

 

I can give you street locations if you care to provide locations in your example.

That is the great thing about stats, one can prove anything. All of us are correct and all of us are wrong. I really did not want to go down the road of a race baiting discussion. I have not seen the article you pointed to before but have seen those numbers elsewhere. My main point is that crime is crime. If you are a victim does it really matter what race the perpetrator was? Or what race you are? Trust me I am no flaming liberal, I suspect we are not too far off from each other on the political meter. But not everything is always black and white. Yes go ahead and moan, I really could not think of a better way to phrase it.

 

I don't doubt what you say about where you live and how things are. I don't know the area so I have to take what you say at face value. But just because that has not been your experience or you have never seen it does not mean it does not happen.

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Is this a political & social agenda site or a geocaching site? Seems like a weak attempt to inject politics and stuff into geocaching. Place them where you want...hunt them where you want and move on. If it is in a location people don't want to go then they wont.

 

There are several caches in Memphis I got nervous finding and I have my carry permit. Heck one of the caches was my own. However I didn't place it to be political I placed it because of the urban myths about the area. (Voodoo and stuff, now archived because some threatened to shoot a cacher). :)

 

Anyway I thought this was supposed to be a non political board.

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I wonder sometimes if I don't need to take my kids on a walk through a "bad" neighborhood at night without my piece just to show them that they don't need to be afraid.

You wear a wig? :)

 

And, unless one is looking for trouble, shouldn't they actually be packing a 'peace?'

 

I would suggest that if someone feels they "don't belong" someplace, they probably don't, and will telegraph that to everyone/anyone around. Perhaps everyone should just take a minute to sing one of Mr. Roger's songs:

 

"It's you I like,

It's not the things you wear,

It's not the way you do your hair--

But it's you I like

The way you are right now,

The way down deep inside you--

Not the things that hide you,

Not your toys--

They're just beside you.

 

But it's you I like--

Every part of you,

Your skin, your eyes, your feelings

Whether old or new.

I hope that you'll remember

Even when you're feeling blue

That it's you I like,

It's you yourself,

It's you, it's you I like."

Edited by BassoonPilot
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Perhaps everyone should just take a minute to sing one of Mr. Roger's songs:

 

"It's you I like,

It's not the things you wear,

It's not the way you do your hair--

But it's you I like

The way you are right now,

The way down deep inside you--

Not the things that hide you,

Not your toys--

They're just beside you.

 

But it's you I like--

Every part of you,

Your skin, your eyes, your feelings

Whether old or new.

I hope that you'll remember

Even when you're feeling blue

That it's you I like,

It's you yourself,

It's you, it's you I like."

Oh great now I am going to have the song in my head for the rest of the day. ;)

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Everyone touts this irrelevant fact in order to use it as a red herring to lead people from the RELEVANT fact of 90% of crime involving blacks and whites consisting of blacks being the perpetrator.

 

...

 

I can give you street locations if you care to provide locations in your example.

That is the great thing about stats, one can prove anything. All of us are correct and all of us are wrong. I really did not want to go down the road of a race baiting discussion. I have not seen the article you pointed to before but have seen those numbers elsewhere. My main point is that crime is crime. If you are a victim does it really matter what race the perpetrator was? Or what race you are? Trust me I am no flaming liberal, I suspect we are not too far off from each other on the political meter. But not everything is always black and white. Yes go ahead and moan, I really could not think of a better way to phrase it.

 

I don't doubt what you say about where you live and how things are. I don't know the area so I have to take what you say at face value. But just because that has not been your experience or you have never seen it does not mean it does not happen.

Ah, stats are dismissed when they don't support your view? ;)

 

"My main point is that crime is crime. If you are a victim does it really matter what race the perpetrator was?" It matters EVERY TIME in the rare instance that whites are the perpetrator. It mattered in the OJ trial (NEVER forget the blacks jumping for joy when OJ got away with killing whites.) Let's just have consistency. Take this case, for example: http://www.amw.com/site/thisweek/G/Griffin...iffinindex.html This was an open and shut hate crime against a white male....guess what? The LOCAL news (much less the national) did not deign to cover it. Think it would have been true in the reverse (so much for claims of over-reporting crime and the news being other than Liberal!)

 

But I guess we should wrap this up. TPTB here don't like whites having an opinion here unless it is to bash whites (I'm sure New England n00b's self-abasement went over very well) and mtn-man will probably lock the thread (after giving Team Tecmage the last word, of course....)

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