Banned In Boston!

January 1, 2004

I totally respect the cache owner's right to initially ban certain cachers. I was just wondering how common this is.

Yes, making a cache "members only" is similar to this.

-WR

Edited January 1, 2004 by WaldenRun

2.3k · January 1, 2004

Interesting idea... nice to give the newbies a chance... I see some of the "usual suspects" have already logged that they are chomping at the bit to go get it but agree to hold back...

January 1, 2004

some have probably found it already, just waiting to log it......

3.5k · January 1, 2004

One of our locals released a multi-cache as a semi-event cache in order to level the playing field on FTF's a bit. The way he figured, if the release date and time were announced ahead of time it would keep those who's schedules allow them to nab them quickly from having an unfair advantage. All-in-all, it was a great idea and those who were able to be there on opening day had a good time.

Bret

4.8k · January 1, 2004

Interesting idea. Even more amazing is the fact the "usual suspects" are being so patient. <_< I wonder how many "notes" will be posted before an actual find takes place.

24.7k · January 1, 2004

As a cache owner you can set any rules you like. But the only tool for enforcement is the online log. You can't stop an FTF short of putting your phone number in the cache and having them call for them so that you screen out the normal FTF hogs.

It's not common though and I've only seen it mentioned in the forums twice.

It's more common to hear of a the geocaching version of the hatsfields and McCoys where two cachers hate each other and delete each other's logs.

Edited January 1, 2004 by Renegade Knight

2.7k · January 1, 2004

Hey, I got an idea... let the next hundred or so finders be FTF. Just like the now common "PC" practice of giving three "gold" medals to the first, second, and third finishers in a race and never revealing which one REALLY had the best time.

It is good to give others a chance to experience the thrill of being first finder, but realistically speaking, there really isn't much you can do to help someone get that experience other than showing them how to be more aggressive in their quest.

It is not the same, a hollow experience at best, to be the first to sign the log and know that you really aren't the FTF. A contrived FTF is meaningless.

Why do we think people (especially kids) are so dumb? Anyone with the intelligence of a Rhesus monkey knows first, second, and third are not the same.

Some recent examples:

My daughter (blue belt at the time) got a gold medal at a Tae-kwon-do tournament for sparring with an older black belt, who beat her soundly, because my daughter was the only participant in her class. The medal is meaningless.

I got 3 silvers in the same tournament. In only one event were there more than three participants. The silver means only that I was not the WORST, not that I was second best. You participate you get a medal. No prize for excellence.

On a recent FTF, (my daughter's first FTF), the cache owner got complaints from several cachers who, for whatever reason, did not email ME about their concerns. They objected to her "celebration" in her log (which she posted with MY login).

I deleted her comments out of courtesy to the cache owner and did not keep a copy.

This was a level 4 terrain which we tried on 2 consecutive days to get to, 100 miles from home, and the cache had been up for 4 days before anyone (us) was willing to take the risk to get it.

The first find was QUITE an accomplishment and well worth celebrating.

It's been 3 days now and none of THEM have logged it. I'm betting they won't.

Perhaps the best way to discourage "all the usual suspects" is to make the cache harder. (Obviously won't work in all cases)

Or we can just accept the fact that everyone cannot be FTF.

January 1, 2004

This is a very interesting topic....

On the one hand, I think the sentiment was nice, trying to give new people a shot at FTF and so forth. On the other hand, I agree with the comments about certain prizes being meaningless if you didn't have any actual competition.

When I started doing this 4 months ago, I swore I wasn't going to get all caught up in the numbers and the FTF stuff. I read the forums and basically thought this was a hobby full of testosterone-poisoned yahoos, and lamented the fact that there are few solo women cachers in my area that I could play with.

Well, see, it's happened - I've become one of the yahoos. If ya can't beat 'em, join 'em - now I'm friends with two of the usual suspects, I've set numbers goals for the coming year, and I have left the house before dawn in order to get FTF....

Maybe I'll get in line on this cache and see if I can be number 7 - with the rest of the yahoos!

January 1, 2004

I think this is nuts and should not have been approved by GC.com. Persons new to the sport can be FTF just as easily as anyone else -- all it takes is something called MOTIVATION. If you want to get there first, you keep on top of new cache postings, and then get out early to find them. There is no secret recipe known only to folks who have found more than 50 caches.

Edited January 1, 2004 by hikemeister

January 1, 2004

I agree that it takes motivation to get FTF in certain areas - I know that if I want to beat Blackstone Val or Downy288 to a Rhode Island cache, I had best get my butt out of bed early - and even that isn't enough sometimes. However, I don't completely agree with the "there's no secret ingredient" aspect. No, there's no "secret" but a cacher with 5 finds is not the same as a cacher with 500 finds. Some of the hardcore cachers know their respective areas like the backs of their hands, some have all the toys that make caching "easier," and some rely on The Force - which is available to only a select few.

So, yes, people need motivation, but they also need practice.

As far as GC allowing it - I think a cache placer should have the right to make all the rules they want. If a cacher doesn't like the rules, they don't have to hunt the cache.

1.6k · January 1, 2004

It must get boring after awhile trying to be able to type FTF as fast as you can...

2.1k · January 1, 2004

Some "usual suspects" are gonna make sock puppets and let them be the first 6 and then the usuals will get to go in....lol

22k · January 1, 2004

The only thing I can see that makes a FTF meaningful (not my word) is that sometimes seekers have to work out 'flaws' in newly placed caches, waypoint accuracy, terrain obstacles, etc. First finders can clear up those problems making it a smoother search for following cachers. If there are a select group of cachers in an area that tend to do be FTF and a hider wants to give that opportunity to less experienced cacher so that they can hone those skills, I say good for that hider. Experienced cachers don't get to post as FTF on one cache? Big fat hairy deal. And you know darn well that the first few posters get to explain how to find the cache. People don't give spoilers but they do say how they approached the cache, how far off the waypoint was, what obstacles they ran into, etc. Others may have found it first but they don't get that posting privilege this time.

There's been one note poster with less than 100 finds who didn't get to post first find. In this type of situation I use my standard "is it important" measuring method.

Will somebody die? No? Then it's not important.

What's the next complaint? Someone placed a cache where you couldn't bring your dog?

Edit: Typo and additional thought

Edited January 1, 2004 by TeamX40

2.1k · January 1, 2004

WR, I feel for you. I would have been one of the first 6 to help speed things along but I have 61 finds now, so I can't qualify. This sucks for those who have very few caches left to do in their area because they have been around long enough and interested the most in getting everything available within a reasonable distance. I think popping one up in your backyard and telling you to wait for 6 people who are still working on how to find the obvious stickpiles is a tad rude even if well-intentioned.

There is only one good reason to limit the early finders and that is to let someone see the cool prizes the cache hider put in there without a lot of flux. But so long as the regular finders (who have been at this long enough and care enough to rush out to a new cache) aren't swapping 50$ bills for McToys then does the 10th person really find that much less of a cache? Otherwise, letting the noobs find this first is akin to treating them like Special Olympics winners (everybody gets a medal! Yeah, you, you're special!).

Another problem with this specific instance is that the rating is a 3/3.5 which will scare off a ton of noobs who would probably rather get their feet wet on a nice 1/1 (especially in the winter here where brevity outdoors is encouraged by the weather).

Oh well, their choice, even if I think it's a poor one. Hopefully this won't start heading into the realm of tit-for-tat where the next cache around here is only for the first 20 finders with over 100 finds...etc.

1.3k · January 1, 2004

In a way it doesn't matter.

Locally there's a new members-only cache (for a grand total of 2).

No one has logged it online, but word is that the logbook reads differently.

2.3k · January 1, 2004

Some "usual suspects" are gonna make sock puppets and let them be the first 6 and then the usuals will get to go in....lol

Only the most obsessive, addicted person....

Oh I forgot, this is geocaching we are speaking about... so that's would describe most of us... :wacko:

Sock puppets would be cheating and I though the only cheating came from "people padding their #'s with LC's" <_<

3.9k · January 1, 2004

While it's true the cache owner sets the rules, personally I think it's a load of crap. Especially having to wait for the first 6 finds?! I can maybe deal with giving them a time frame. 24 hours at the most. By then certainly anyone who cares will have seen the new cache and go grab it. If not, tough nuts! You had your chance. If it was in my area I'd be there tomorrow morning logging in.

January 2, 2004

While it's true the cache owner sets the rules, personally I think it's a load of crap. Especially having to wait for the first 6 finds?! I can maybe deal with giving them a time frame. 24 hours at the most. By then certainly anyone who cares will have seen the new cache and go grab it. If not, tough nuts! You had your chance. If it was in my area I'd be there tomorrow morning logging in.

I agree, and just to add my 'two cents' -- if this one was posted in my area, I would go out early in the AM and sign the log book, regardless of what the instructions say. So what if the person who set up the cache ends up deleting my electronic log from the web site -- I'd still know that I found the cache.

When I first started geocaching, in May 2003, I never was a first finder, and to be honest, did not think anything about it. Then I realized who the serious geocachers were in the area, and noticed they were usually FTF. Great -- so this got me wondering what techniques they used -- I actually contacted them and went geocaching with some of them -- learned a lot in the process -- and then on several occasions recently, have been FTF.

1.3k · January 2, 2004

I don't see anything wrong with releasing coords at a predetermined time, say 10:00am on a Saturday. But forbidding individuals or groups to visit a cache is unfair to everyone. Who wants to be known as the guy that won the race because the fast runners are tied up at the starting line?

I went out before dawn today to try for FTF on a new multi. It turns out that the coords needed adjustment. The owner went back out and corrected the coords and adjusted the cache page. Now, the "usual suspect(s)" is likely to get the cache first. There's no way to know if I would have found it with the corrected coords anyway, so no sense getting upset. When you try for FTF, you often play a part in ironing out the wrinkles.

In the end, there is only one person who is the fastest in the world. They will win every race they enter. Is that fair? Does that mean people should quit racing?

If one guy in the area is so proficient at getting FTF that he gets it almost every time, then finding the cache second is still an achievement. I'd rather be the second fastest person in the world than win a race because the fast guy let me.

Edited January 2, 2004 by Bloencustoms

January 2, 2004

I don't see anything wrong with releasing coords at a predetermined time, say 10:00am on a Saturday. But forbidding individuals or groups to visit a cache is unfair to everyone. Who wants to be known as the guy that won the race because the fast runners are tied up at the starting line?

Perfectly stated !

6.4k · January 2, 2004

Sure doesn't seem to be following what was said in this thread.

1.5k · January 2, 2004

Affermative Action for Cachers? Since we are only compeating against ourselves, getting an FTF only because all the cachers that would normally score it were not allowed to participate would be meaningless. It's not really a first to find.

2.7k · January 2, 2004

Will somebody die? No? Then it's not important.

"Just remember that you're standing on a world that's evolving and revolving at 900 miles an hour. It is orbiting, it's reckoned, 50thousand miles a second, the sun that is the source of all our power. The sun and you and me and all the stars that we can see are travelling a million miles a day, in an outer spiral arm 16000 light years long, of the galaxy they call the Milky Way..."

"Makes you feel kinda insignificant, doesn't it?"

"Yeees..."

May we 'ave you're liver then?

- Monty Python "The Galaxy Song", my apologies for possible misquotes

3.9k · January 2, 2004

I went out before dawn today to try for FTF on a new multi.

Definitely something I would do. The n00bs need to know that some players like to get the FTF and even compete for it. So if they are interested in playing that game they will need to step up and play. I like reading logs like this, and this. But you don't see this guy whining about me getting the FTF, he basically says he needs to step it up. That kind of attitude will get you a lot farther in my book. If I met this guy on at the trailhead on his way to his first FTF, I might consider letting him go ahead of me. But then a guy like that probably wouldn't want that.

3.9k · January 2, 2004

If there are a select group of cachers in an area that tend to do be FTF and a hider wants to give that opportunity to less experienced cacher so that they can hone those skills, I say good for that hider. Experienced cachers don't get to post as FTF on one cache? Big fat hairy deal.

Big fat hairy deal either way. You never get to log a FTF. Big deal. You want to log one, get up earlier. If you don't play the game like it's a competition great then play that way, if you like to think of it as one, then play that way. Everybody is different. I say just post the cache and let the fastest cacher get the FTF. No preferential treatment. The funny thing is that it's always the ones that say "it's not a competition" that complain about not getting a FTF. If it's not a competition than why do they care?

2.7k · January 2, 2004

I've never thought of FTFs as a competition, but it is a special thrill, especially if it is a hard cache and you've had to post several no-finds in the process and STILL get the FTF. (I have 3 now in this category)

My humble apologies to all who came in second. I'll try to slow down.

3.8k · January 2, 2004

Interesting idea. Even more amazing is the fact the "usual suspects" are being so patient. I wonder how many "notes" will be posted before an actual find takes place.

Maybe that's the off-topic forum everyone keeps asking about? :unsure:

January 2, 2004

I really enjoy going for FTF on new caches -- but you know what? There are others who often beat me to it (most often, in fact). It cracks me up when I get there very early and see one of their names in the log book -- it is great FUN, and an inspiration to try harder. I'd be pissed off if I were a person with just a few finds and someone tried to make it easier for me by keeping away the serious geocachers -- that would be insulting!

January 2, 2004

i read this log and just thought i would say i found my first FTF today. i actually got there about an hour before a local cacher with the most finds and most FTF. he has 600 finds and 24 FTF. I just got lucky and saw it last night and got there this morning he logged it an hour later along with another new one that popped up this morning. he is a great cacher and always willing to lend a hand. most people around here call him when they are stumped because he's found just about all of them. just my 2 cents. :unsure:

22k · January 2, 2004

Will somebody die? No? Then it's not important.

"Just remember that you're standing on a world that's evolving and revolving at 900 miles an hour. It is orbiting, it's reckoned, 50thousand miles a second, the sun that is the source of all our power. The sun and you and me and all the stars that we can see are travelling a million miles a day, in an outer spiral arm 16000 light years long, of the galaxy they call the Milky Way..."

"Makes you feel kinda insignificant, doesn't it?"

"Yeees..."

May we 'ave you're liver then?

- Monty Python "The Galaxy Song", my apologies for possible misquotes

Wow, your crushing grip of logic has convinced me of the error of my ways. I had no idea how poorly I have been treated. I will genuflect whenever you post a FTF.

Edited to be more direct if you can believe it.

Edited January 2, 2004 by TeamX40

2.7k · January 2, 2004

Error?

I was AGGREEING with you!

2.7k · January 2, 2004

What's the next complaint? Someone placed a cache where you couldn't bring your dog?

Markwell

22k · January 2, 2004

Error?
I was AGGREEING with you!

oh, oops.

Peace brother.

Ok, who else wants to feel the sting of my sword? (before I get banned for being a jerk)

6.5k · January 2, 2004

Error?
I was AGGREEING with you!

oh, oops.

Peace brother.

Ok, who else wants to feel the sting of my sword? (before I get banned for being a jerk)

Did you just call me a Jerk?! :unsure:

22k · January 2, 2004

Error?
I was AGGREEING with you!

oh, oops.

Peace brother.

Ok, who else wants to feel the sting of my sword? (before I get banned for being a jerk)

Did you just call me a Jerk?!

Considering that we've met, Ok sure.

Actually you lost me on that one. Unless you are taking me up on my challenge.

Edited January 2, 2004 by TeamX40

January 2, 2004

I'm confused . . .

Isn't this just a game? Isn't it supposed to be fun??

People take Geocaching way to seriously.

Either that . . . or I just don't get it. :unsure:

Happy caching and stuff!

January 2, 2004

Closing this thread due to degradation. I think perhaps I should stick to the New England forum where this tends not to happen.

-WR

Banned In Boston!

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