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Sad News For Me...


Criminal

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It breaks my heart to write this, but we have no other choice right now. Patch the SuperDog has to find a new home. The night before last he (again) bit Connor (age 10) and we ended up in the ER to have it checked out. Connor is fine but he’s a little nervous around Patch now.

 

The incident stems from the Alpha order in our home, and Patch’s understanding of where his place is. Connor has always been submissive to the puppy, he and a friend even thought it funny to curl up on the floor and let the dog “hump” them. To the dog, this is a significant demonstration of submission (not sexuality) and he has outgrown his ability to understand its inappropriateness.

 

The night before last we (finally) cooked our Christmas turkey and Patch was waiting somewhat patiently for a little of his own. We make a point of not feeding him from the table, but when Patti got up, Patch came up to investigate. Connor knelt on the floor (placing himself below the dog) and tried to push him away. The dog growled and bit him on the head, making a rather nasty wound. He will consistently growl at the boys if any of them try to mess with him while he’s eating. Both Patti and I can push him away from his food, pet him around the mouth, or even put our hands in his mouth without any problem.

 

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In this litigious society, it would not be a good idea for us to keep him where we live; there are simply too many children in this neighborhood. I have to stress that I have only seen this behavior when he thinks his food is challenged, and only by those he’s placed lower on the alpha order.

 

Patch is half Catahoula Leopard and half black lab. He likes to run off leash and enjoys hiking. The pictures here are from the 12.5 mile hike we took to place the Marmot Pass Cache. He’s 9 months old, and about 65 pounds. A good home will probably not include young children, have plenty of room to run, and give him the attention he craves. You can contact me through email if you have any questions.

 

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;):blink::mad:;):P:DB):(;)B)B):(:(:(:(:(

Edited by Criminal
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That's really sad. How I wish I could take Patch but I have two young boys at home. They really miss our old chocolate lab who passed away a couple years ago. I miss her tremendously, too. She never snapped at anyone even in her painful arthritic twilight.

 

Patch looks like such a fun, intelligent, and energetic dog. He'd be perfect for the young single dude with a big backyard, who goes on lots of outdoor trips.

 

I wish you all the luck in the world finding a suitable home for Patch. I hope you can find a more gentle replacement (pure lab?).

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Criminal,

 

Bummer, the sad part is that the pup must learn that ALL humans are alpha to him. This will be a hard go for him and it will take some time. Already having a pack of four dogs (2 ACD and 2 Aussie mix) I had to do a lot of study to determine how as alpha I wanted to set the pack order! Good reading is The Art Of Rasing A Puppy by the Monks of New Skete. This is tough love but worth reading, particularily if you have thoughts of another dog.

 

Personally, I think you are Patche's best hope but it will take some rethink and a significant amont of time. In any case, I feel your sorrow and wish you and the pup the best!

 

runhills

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The problem is that if one of the neighborhood children come between Patch and food/bone/hamburger wrapper, he may snap at them. He may also bite them and then I have to be nice to Travis while he represents me in the lawsuit. It's really wierd because he's such a big baby (the dog, not Travis). He's incredibly loving and enjoys meeting other people, even other children. There's just something about his food that makes him want to protect it.

 

He has, since the night of the bite, been unbelievably good! He used to hold your hand in his mouth, not biting but just holding you, but now he won't even do that. I think he senses something.

:blink::D:bad::D:D:bad:

 

EDIT: Typos, sad sad typos... :D

Edited by Criminal
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Criminal,

 

Sorry to hear of your predicament, but I am glad that it did not end in a worse manner.

 

Choices such as these are very difficult to make, they are strewn with volitile emotions and feelings for both the people and animals involved.

 

If this is your instictive feeling then do what you have to do. It is the right thing to do as children are that......children, and it takes a PARENT to make these choices and protect your child.

 

Unfortunately not enough people are as strong as you are and take dangerous chances with children around animals. The news stories these days are full of stories of dogs attacking children and people.

 

This is nothing new, but previously people valued people more than dogs and did not keep dangerous animals in close proximity of children and innocent people. Hunting dogs are born and breed to hunt, fighting dogs such as chows, Staffordshire terriers and others are bred to do just that, hunt and fight, and they are very good at that. They are not bred as "family dogs" like labs or retrievers, so why pretend that they are. Sorry for being off topic here, obviously you did not go out and get any of these dangerous breeds, but you still ended up with a situation that you identified as having potential for danger. I suppose you could have had to make this decision if the dog were any sort of breed, sometimes it can just happen.

 

I keep parrots and cockatoos. And they do have the potential to inflict great harm on our two children if we were to let them interact. But I do not let them interact with my birds any more than I let them play with my power tools. But if given the need to make a choice such as yours, I would be doing the exact same thing.

 

Congratulations for making the choice based on what you need to do as a parent, not what you want to do as a pet owner. Tough choice, but you are not alone.

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You have valid concerns. I guess my put may seem a bit harsh and I don't want you to be offended. The dog has developed unacceptable behavior problems that need to be corrected! You have the best chance at doing this particularily if you get trained help!

 

If you have decided for sure, I best shut up and not deepen the pain! In any case, if you are doing OCM, feel free to search me or flyingdogs out. Dog people are a close knit bunch in our own way!

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I'm sorry to hear about your predicament. I'll ask around and see if I can find a good home for him, but I don't have anyone in mind right now.

 

then I have to be nice to Travis while he represents me in the lawsuit

 

Yeah, that'd make a bad situation even worse. Especially since I hate injury cases.

:blink:

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Sorry you haven't been successful in establishing a "pack" that works. We've found that's critical in figuring out how to live with dogs. If you have a problem animal, it's probably because your pack isn't working harmoniously. Before you give up on this pet, PLEASE try to work it out and get some advice from a professional who understands canine behavior. Your vet can help you find someone, or let me know, and I will be glad to help. You know and love the animal better than anyone. No one else can succeed like you can if you only will. You owe it to your friend.

 

Flyingdogs

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Runhills is right, Criminal.

 

On the authority of my wife, who used to be a labrador breeder and trainer, and who has written two books (well received, but in Hebrew, so I won't bother you with copies) about raising dogs and about dogs in a family-with-children context, you need to do either of the following two things, before it is too late for Patch to be socialized in a suitable pack: Either go ahead and find him a place where he has plenty of space to run, and with people who have experience with dogs, or find some "family retraining" for yourself, your family and your dog together. To put it very bluntly: Patch is not the problem, and the same thing is likely to happen again with any dogs you may ever have, without appropriate human behavior, which is a learned skill, and Connor is not too young to learn it.

 

So if you were thinking about having a dog at some point in the future, you'd better not amputate Patch from his beloved family, but get the rest of your family to understand alpha orders. The involvement of all your family members in this is very important, because new attitudes will have to be learned by ALL the humans, and by Patch. Dena says: " working with that kind of a dog as a family can be an incredibly enriching educational and emotional experience. What you'll all learn will be applicable to all your other relationships in your life, in addition to making Patch a liveable pet. However, you'd have to be willing to commit to that, despite the extreme social pressure in case of a biting dog."

 

We both hope that you'll take the harder course, because it would be better for all, in the long run - We hope you can stick the course, but wouldn't judge you if you decided to find another home for Patch. It's a tough situation, but not hopeless.

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Let me state clearly that I do not want to get rid of my dog.

 

I understand that Patch is not solely to problem here. But to say Patch is not the problem is being naive. He’s a great dog, loves everyone he meets, and except for one troubling behavior is easily the best dog I’ve ever had. I said before, he’s such a baby. He’s goofy and there’s nothing more entertaining than watching him off leash on the trail.

 

Way back when he was a pup, we took him out the back yard to walk him. As we walked through the yard next to ours, (under construction at the time) Patch found a hamburger wrapper one of the builders left. This cute little loveable puppy turned ugly in a heartbeat, and bit Patti’s hand enough that she shrieked in pain. Connor once filled his food bowl too full and some food spilled out on the floor. When Connor tried to pick it up, the dog growled and snapped at him. And yet he’s a big goofball again five minutes later.

 

Connor is trying to be brave around the dog, but he’s still hesitant. The dog knows this. Nobody loves the dog more than Patti, but she’s very worried about the legal implications should Patch bite one of the neighborhood kids. It’s easy to imagine a situation where a child could try to take something from Patch, and the big goofball turns into Cujo.

 

I hear what you’re saying; I would choose training over losing him any day. There are other considerations though.

Edited by Criminal
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Criminal,

 

I suggest you make a couple of phone calls to professionals in the area of dog behavior and explain your situation. After a few calls you should get a fair idea of what might be needed to resolve the problem! I have no first hand experience but did find this interesting! There is also a place in Roy call ewetopia that specializes in behavior problems. We have taken one of pack there to herd sheep, what a blast!

 

Personally, I think the rewards outweigh the risk! From your posts I sense the affection for Patch and wish you the best!

 

runhills

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I was curious about the breed of Catahoula Leopard and found this page on the history of this particular breed. The aggressive behavior is part and parcel of the breed albeit misdirected towards the young family members.

 

Even with appropriate training on the animal and all members of the family, as an owner, you would have to still be quite watchful as you would over a rottweiler that has never shown aggressive behavior.

 

I'm quite certain Criminal recognizes retraining can break the dog of his positioning in the pack. Afterall, most good dog owners know dogs are creatures of habit and good habits are learned as are bad habits. But once you have a dog that has become used to snapping at a person early on, that aggressiveness can be triggered by the slightest motion that a kid (any kid) can make that will make the dog feel threatened years later when you least expect it even after all that retraining.

 

I know this from early on experience when I was a kid when my best friend's ankle was literally shredded by a "professionally trained dog." The only thing saving us from a lawsuit back in the early 60's, was to have him destroyed.

 

At least Criminal is looking for a good home rather than abandoning him to a shelter that would only be able to keep him for a few short days before finding a home or being euthanized. I personally wish we could take him on as I know how this puppy is but we can't take the chance with our nieces, nephews, grandchildren or cousins that visit.

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I've neglected to mention that we had a professional trainer come to our home after the incident where he bit Patti. We have done all the training we can do. The vet said it; once he's broken the skin, that's it.

 

Please don't get the impression Patch is some maniacal monster dog waiting to devour a child. The incident is very very rare. But the chance is too much for us.

 

It was not an easy decision. I will investigate every possible solution to the problem, but in the end it all comes down to doing what we know is right. If it's more training, then so be it. If it's a new home for him, then that's what we'll do.

:blink:

Edited by Criminal
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Good luck with finding Patch a new home. My son had to give away his dog after his wife became pregnant. For some reason the dog would growl at very young children. It even snapped at a two year old. So rather than take chances they found her a good home. Mine.

 

I still don't trust her around children to this day. It would be foolish for me to think it's going to change. When kids come over we pen her up.

 

I hope you find Patch a good home.

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Out of couriosity, I wonder if those posting to this forum are thenselves dog owners? I have four, two of which I accepted with previous baggage that has taken some time to correct. We now have a wonderful pack that brings us a lot of joy and personal satisfaction.

 

With respect to breeds, again humans treat certain breeds based on fobias which tend to reinforce the bad aspects. In agility I have met numerous dogs of ALL breeds that are wonderful pets; it is all in the handler!

 

Criminal, you are not making a tough choice about Patch; you are making a tough choice about your ability to have dogs as a part of your family. If you choose to have dogs as part of your family, work though this with Patch. Please don't cast him aside and try with another dog!

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With respect to breeds, again humans treat certain breeds based on fobias which tend to reinforce the bad aspects.  In agility I have met numerous dogs of ALL breeds that are wonderful pets; it is all in the handler!

 

Perhaps you're right about it being all about the handler. But several families have lost small children because of an agressive pitbull. We lived just a few doors away from a family that had a pitbull. This dog seemed very friendly. I was not afraid to visit the home and the dog would lick my hand every time it saw me.

 

Then one day the dog attacked their 4 year old son and killed him. Was it because this family were poor handlers? Maybe so, probably so. It's a big risk to take and not one I'd be willing to take.

 

Criminal stated he'd get more professional training if he couldn't find Patch a good home. But I'll be brutally honest and say that if a dog put my child in the hospital it isn't worth spending a dime on.

 

Just my own opinion.

 

We have 3 dogs. Two of them stupid and friendly and one that we keep away from children. If a child lived here we wouldn't have this dog even though it's very intelligent and loving towards us.

Edited by Lazyboy & Mitey Mite
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But I'll be brutally honest and say that if a dog put my child in the hospital it isn't worth spending a dime on.

Time for me to leave this forum, I just got very emotional! Adoption agengices, shelters and the humane society are swamped with animals that humans have allowed to misbehave then discard because they can't deal with the problem they created!

 

Best of luck Criminal, as a dog owner I do know that you are faced with a VERY tough choice!

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Criminal, you are not making a tough choice about Patch; you are making a tough choice about your ability to have dogs as a part of your family. If you choose to have dogs as part of your family, work though this with Patch.

 

It’s a tough choice all around. I think I haven’t made my attachment to him as clearly as I could. Look at the photos, he’s my hiking partner! For those occasions when nobody is able to go on a long hike with me due to other obligations, I go alone. (I posted almost weekly in the NW forum this past summer/autumn trying to get folks out into the wild) Patch is the best company when I’m all alone in the woods and 6+ miles from the car. Read my hike report here. You’re never lonely when your best friend is nearby; even when your best friend has his entire snout buried in an animal hole and is snorting and cavorting.

 

Please don't cast him aside and try with another dog!

Not my intention. If I can’t keep Patch, I’ll have to teach one of our cats to hike. I’ll not be getting another dog.

 

Criminal stated he'd get more professional training if he couldn't find Patch a good home. But I'll be brutally honest and say that if a dog put my child in the hospital it isn't worth spending a dime on.

 

No, I’d get Patch training if I thought it would help the situation. Training=Keep Patch. Right now I’m not convinced that this particular behavior is one that can be trained out of him. (I don’t want a dog with a crushed spirit either.) I’m looking to find him a good home because I know the value that he brings to a human-dog relationship. As to your second point, that’s the issue Patti is dealing with, her love for Patch and her motherly instinct to protect her child.

 

Trust me, it's emotional for all of us as well. We don't want this.

Edited by Criminal
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But I'll be brutally honest and say that if a dog put my child in the hospital it isn't worth spending a dime on.

Time for me to leave this forum, I just got very emotional! Adoption agengices, shelters and the humane society are swamped with animals that humans have allowed to misbehave then discard because they can't deal with the problem they created!

 

Best of luck Criminal, as a dog owner I do know that you are faced with a VERY tough choice!

With all due respect, runhills, you have made a very big assumption with that parting statement in regards to Criminal's handling of his dog, the situation he finds himself in, and the people that have posted here. You clearly show you haven't completely read what Criminal has posted here nor have you read any of Criminal's logs.

 

Regardless of these assumptions you hold, if anybody accused me of not loving my pet well enough to make sure he and family weren't properly trained... we would be toe to toe. Let me be very clear though, if MY dog even began to display the certain behavior described here, I too would have to make the difficult decision of family safety and comfort first, animal second. Snickers is family, but like any other member of the family, sometimes they can become dangerous to others and need to be treated appropriately. At 90 lbs and a mouth full of sharp teeth and an inability to be reasoned with, that has to be held in the highest regard in terms of safety to my family if he fails to hold to his training. Do not assume my family doesn't know about the pecking order and how to behave in that regard but you cannot have a child being afraid in his/her own home.

 

Saying that all breeds' misbehavior is solely due to handler mistraining or allowance of bad behavior is a fallacy. Animal instinct has a large play in how the training is overridden when in a moment of panic fight or flight mode. Also, certain breeds have a higher level of loyalty to the Alpha in the pack than to others within that same pack. Some also have a higher level of aggressiveness. The Catahoula Leopard was bred with both traits. If you read the link I provided earlier, you would have noted this breed was also once bred as a war dog.

 

It is quite clear Criminal is trying to do what is right to family safety, comfort and liability while trying to do right by Patch while he is still young.

 

Fwiw, if it wasn't for his herding instincts, he would have a home with my Mom, two other dogs and lots of room to romp with an open invite to come up and visit. But there are sheep nearby and the owner has made it clear any dog harrassing his flock will be shot. After some discussion, we decided we couldn't guarantee Patches' safety. Sorry dude. Their lab almost met the same fate. I'll keep an eye out for other possible homes.

Edited by TotemLake
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I tried to bail out of this forum but failed!

 

1.) I do not appreciate forums that divide into split issues!

2.) I do not like people second guessing my assumptions!

3.) The dog is either trainable or not! This is Criminal's decision to make!

4.) If the dog is not trainable (I doubt) it may need to be put down! Passing the buck shouldn't be an option!

5.) If it is trainable, is Criminal willing to get the help to do it?

6.) If Criminal can't make the effort to train it, then as he has indicated, a dog is not a suitable pet for members of this family!

7.) I beleive that Criminal does not blame the dog, he just regrets the current situation!

8.) Only Criminal and his family can wade through this mess! The rest of us drawing battle lines and slamming each other does not help!

 

Maybe this time I will suceed in bailing out of this forum!!!

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What would it take for you to disown a son or daughter that became harmfull to society. Pets are family; I admit to being a bit extreme! <_<

Yeah you might be a bit extreme especially since you wouldn't answer the question. Pets may be family but they aren't human. :wacko:

 

I'll answer your question though. What would it take for me to disown a child of mine? If a child of mine hurt another child he or she would be gone. I'm talking about adults here of course, not minor children.

 

Dogs can and do kill family members. That is always something to consider. I believe Criminal is taking a logical approach to the situation. In my mind one trip to the emergency is enough. It's their decision of course.

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L&MM,

 

I probably can't answer your question, I would see the faut as me and not want to admitt that I couldn't outsmart the critter!

 

The last dog we adopted sent my wife to the doctor and cost us a couple of grand in vet bills but now you couldn't pick it out of our four dogs.

 

You may not realize this but I would put a dog with a behavioral problem down before I gave it to a new home!

 

At less than two years, Patches is a minor!

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You may not realize this but I would put a dog with a behavioral problem down before I gave it to a new home!

 

Well I respect that you would recognize when to throw in the towel. In all my years of being a dog owner I have had to destroy one dog because of bad behavior. It was a bad seed from the beginning. I didn't allow it to make it to adult stage. It was a mutt and I suspect badly inbred.

 

We are living with a dog with poor behavior towards small children. We don't have small children. Those with small kids who visit give us a call before coming over and as I said earlier we pen the dog.

 

Don't take things too seriously online runhills. Criminal is having a tough time with this as it is.

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2.) I do not like people second guessing my assumptions!

runhills,

 

All other issues aside, one can only second guess when you leave it open that way. I tried to be respectful of your opinion, but my perception of it was you were not reading the full posts and only picked on the pieces that suited your position. That was all that I pointed out regarding your statements. Please sit back, set aside your emotions for just a moment (which is hard for any of us to do) and re-read.

 

I'm not trying to pull you back into the argument - you have stated your position eloquently enough, but I sincerely believe you mis-read Criminal's postings by picking at the pieces rather than looking at the whole.

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What would it take for you to disown a son or daughter that became harmfull to society. Pets are family; I admit to being a bit extreme! <_<

That's not extreme at all, Runhills, that's the only proper way of dealing with this kind of problem.

 

There is no point in casting the blame on the dog, or on the owner. It's a family problem (the dog being PART of the family), and family therapy is in order, if the family members can handle it. From what I read, I have no doubt that Criminal loves Patch, and will do everything possible.

 

The question, of course, is whether the rest of the family is as comitted to Patch as Criminal is. If this is not the case, Patch may be better of in another environment.

 

A dog with the breeding background like Patch will have no problem adjusting to a new pack. His welfare should be the weightiest factor here.

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What would it take for you to disown a son or daughter that became harmfull to society. Pets are family; I admit to being a bit extreme! 

 

OK, I am using this quote to speak generally about this whole thread, so please don't read too much into that!

 

The facts as I see them is that Patch once bit Criminal's wife and then bit his son, causing a trip to the hospital. Basically, the dog, while otherwise wonderful, has had problems with being territorial over food. The dog also has some breeding where that would make sense. The dog is now around 9 months old.

 

With the facts in mind, should people take on pets with the idea that they make a committment for life? Well, yes, I subscribe to that. But when a pet causes physical injury and pain to the family is it OK to try to find a different place for the pet where it will fit in? Well, yes. The way I see it, Patch is normally a great dog and a very much loving member of the family, but he appears to have a thing with food. Then, he can bite. Can that be trained out? Maybe, maybe not. What I'm comfortable saying is that if any such training would be successful, that it would take some time. In the meantime, it is unrealistic, and frankly mean, to expect Criminal's 10 year old child to live in fear of the dog. And what if it couldn't be trained out? Should the poor dog live tied up in the yard away from people for their protection when maybe a home that would suit him is out there?

 

Obviously Criminal and his family love this dog, but there are concerns. I would be concerned too. You know what? I love cheetos and would maybe fight for one (well maybe not, but pretend I would). What if while in training someone drops a cheeto on the floor and the dog thinks "hey my cheeto" and then bites the child who happens to reach to pick it up? That is not the dog's fault or the child's, it is just a circumstance that could happen. But a child should not have to live in fear of that. Nor should a dog have to live where that fear is present.

 

So, back to the quote. I would not "disown" a child, but I would send him or her to a juvenile facility if he or she caused harm that I felt could not be fixed safely in the home. Basically, I would not put others in fear or danger. Also, I haven't seen Criminal "disown" patch. Instead, I have seen him post here hoping for help. He is asking if anyone without children could adopt Patch. If he was looking to simply dump the dog, he would not have posted. Of course, if no one can help, he might be forced to go to the newspaper or shelter option, I don't know. What I do know is that while I view my pets as my family, that a child ranks them. Yes, the whole story is sad. I bet it is really, really sad for Criminal, his wife, and his son, but the problem remains that his son must feel safe. I am one of the most softy, big hearted animal lovers on the planet, but a child feeling, not to mention actually being, secure still comes first for me.

 

I think Criminal is seeking a good home for Patch while looking out for his son. Now, surely there is someone out there who can help!?!?!

 

Edited for spelling and grammar and I bet I missed some.

Edited by carleenp
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Criminal--

I have a friend that works for the Humane Society further up the peninsula from you. If you would like, I could forward a message to her on your behalf to see what local resources she could recommend to you for whichever way your decision must be made. Then if she thinks she has helpful info and y'all are both willing you could communicate directly. I don't know her work e-mail, and I won't share her personal one without her permission. She's currently in route between Texas and Washington, so I can't ask just this minute. From what I know of her and her relationships to animals, I think she would completely understand both sides of your issue. Just a thought...

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Thanks Carleen and everyone for the support. I think the issues are all there so I won’t beat that to death. It has NOT been officially decided that the dog will go, we’re only at about 90% right now. We are waiting to speak to a pro and find out what our options are. The holidays are making that difficult but I think they reopen on Monday.

 

The question that seems to be in debate is, can this behavior be trained out of Patch?

I believe that it can be. Then the question is, do I still want Patch after that? I think it can be trained out of him, dogs are very pliable. But I also think that the degree of training required would crush his spirit. Patch would not be the same dog without his spirit. Have you ever met a dog that looked so crushed? Or one that looks away and tucks his tail between his legs when you reach for him? I don’t want that for Patch. I firmly believe that he would tear an assaulter limb from limb to protect Patti or me, that would not be the case if he had the spark trained out of him.

 

I am looking for a home where he would fit in better. I’ll let you all know soon what the verdict is.

 

Soft? Look at that face! How could you not be a softy? (I hope you’re looking at Patch’s face.)

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Soft? Look at that face! How could you not be a softy? (I hope you’re looking at Patch’s face.)

 

he (again) bit Connor (age 10) and we ended up in the ER to have it checked out.

 

Can you please post a picture showing the wound that the dog inflicted on the CHILD so that I can make a fair comparison before I answer your question.

 

I am assuming that you felt the damage was sufficient enought to warrant a trip to the ER, as just by reading your posts and your webpage you do not appear to be someone who over reacts, or goes running to the doctors with a boo boo. You seem to be a "together" person who likely is very self sufficent.

 

My point here is that you took the CHILD to the ER Room, you were concerned enough about the damage that it was not just a little bite.

 

Children should not be scared to live in their own home. I think that someone said that already. I am not talking about being scared of monsters in the closet or under the bed. This is REAL, and a child, or any other person should not have to live with that fear in their own home.

 

We put rails on stairs, we don't let children use table saws or use firearms, or leave sharp knives laying around. I think you already know what you need to do, you have decided what is best for the child. Remember we are talking about the safety of the child here.Why are you second guessing yourself?

 

I am sorry if this sounds jaded or blunt. But the reality is that we need to put our CHILDREN AND THEIR SAFETY FIRST, and our feelings about an animal second. The child did not ask to get bitten. And yes, we too have animals, and yes I have had dogs and dogs with children. But I know where my priorities are, they are in protecting my children.

 

Criminal, please do not be offended by my post, I simply want to state the obvious fact that some people tend to put dogs and their own personal feelings as a higher priority than the safety and well being of children. There is plenty of time for dogs when the children are grown and out of the house.

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But the reality is that we need to put our CHILDREN AND THEIR SAFETY FIRST, and our feelings about an animal second. The child did not ask to get bitten. And yes, we too have animals, and yes I have had dogs and dogs with children. But I know where my priorities are, they are in protecting my children.

Ah, I now understand why a previous comment I made was misunderstood.

 

I never contrasted the welfare of dogs with the welfare of humans. They go hand in hand. It goes without saying that the safety and welfare of all family members come first. But family members include humans AND canines.

 

What should NOT be a consideration are our personal sentiments, if we want to make a *right* decision.

 

Getting or keeping a dog when you cannot provide him with a suitable environment is bad for all persons involved. A suitable environment, in this case, would imply comprehensive family retraining. If Criminal for some reason should find this impossible to provide, or if any of human family members would be uncooperative, it would not be fair to Conner AND to Patch to keep them together.

 

But only Criminal can assess his situation and the feasibility of a comprehensive family retraining, and it is not up to us to make recommendations.

 

I am sorry if I stepped on somebody's toes - that wasn't my intention. I was trying this whole discussion out of the who-is-to-blame-and-who-will-now-be-punished sphere, and pint out that we have a household crisis here between various family members, and that the best decision must be made for all family members, REGARDLESS of how we may FEEL about it.

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<<The question that seems to be in debate is, can this behavior be trained out of Patch?

I believe that it can be. Then the question is, do I still want Patch after that? I think it can be trained out of him, dogs are very pliable. But I also think that the degree of training required would crush his spirit. Patch would not be the same dog without his spirit. >>

 

I'm not so sure this will happen to Patch, Criminal. We own a Belgian Shepherd. I'm not sure if she's a purebred or not as we found her but she definitely looks like a purebred. And, unfortunately, she has all the instincts of a Shepherd. She is especially protective of us when confronted with strangers (at least strangers to her) are coming toward us when out walking, coming to our door....and she does not like other dogs except the ones she has gotten to know well.

 

But this has not been a problem because we just approach it the same way one more closely watches a small child when out then one watches their teen. Just as one watches a small child closely, for example, to ensure they don't rush into the street. Some examples:

 

When we're out walking in the woods, at the beach, or other places I always have the leash handy. If another dog comes within her "alert" range, she is very good. I just say "no" and she sits there and lets me put her leash on. Now, she'll still bark like crazy at the other dog but she doesn't try to get away from me to go after it.

 

If a stranger without a dog is walking towards me, I know her well enough to tell by her body language how she will react. There have only been a few times where she has started to look aggressive and, when that happens, she responds the same way to my "no" and lets me put her leash on. Quite frankly, the few times she has done that the people have been the type where my own radar is up a bit as well. Maybe she senses that they have the capability of doing me harm? Who knows? But, again, this hasn't been a problem.

 

She is not allowed to run loose outside our home because she will chase anyone who comes on our sidewalk that she doesn't know and will chase off after dogs. Since we have a leash-law in our town anyway, this isn't a big deal. If we're out front doing something, she is out with us but is on a tether that is not long enough to let her get near the sidewalk. And we have ensured that our backyard is well-fenced so she can't escape from there. Although she is babied and is rarely out there as we prefer to keep her inside with us.

 

If someone comes to the house that she doesn't know, we just open the door enough to talk to them and block her ability to exit. She may bark a lot until she determines they're safe. However, if she did get out first, I know her protective instincts might cause trouble. I can let someone she doesn't know in the house if I take care to turn around and tell her that they're "OK" and pet her first. This is enough to assure her that they're fine. On a few occasions, she hangs around and watches them closely but, most of the time, she retreats to her favorite spot to view the outside world from and ignores them. On the occasions where she watches them closely, I just ask them to introduce themselves to her. A quick sniff and a pat on her head from them is all it takes to reassure her that things will be OK.

 

I need to emphasize that she wasn't like this in the beginning. At first, she was very aggressive to anyone who was a stranger to her and, if another dog appeared when we would be out exploring somewhere with her off-leash, she would chase after them pronto while ignoring any commands to stop. But, as she matured, and as we became better at being the Alphas, those behaviors all became very controllable.

 

Sorry for the long post but, after we had her for a short time, she was in our front yard with us and was not tied up. We hadn't yet observed any of these aggressive behaviors and didn't think she would be a problem. A lady was walking her dog acrossed the street and she tore after them, almost got hit by a car in the process, and ended up biting the lady who got between my dog and her's. It was only a tiny puncture, thank goodness, so we offered to pay any medical bills and pay for her pants. She didn't press charges but we sure learned a hard lesson and realized that we needed to be more diligent in helping her keep herself in check by implementing better safeguards and being more alert.

 

So, when I do take her places where she can run around off-leash, I always have one eye and ear out to ensure that no one is coming up behind us that would startle her and that no dog is coming into her "alert" range. I do liken it to caring for a child because it's so similar to how I was when my children were young. You know, the way you might always keep your eyes on your kids while shopping in a big mall or store. It becomes second nature and doesn't detract from our enjoyment and the joy she brings me is worth the extra effort we have to expend to keep herself safe from her own instincts.

 

My final comment is that none of this has diminished her spirit in any way. We have never smacked her or done anything else in the process to do this. The worst that has happened is that she has been yelled at a few times and, since she wears a choke-chain, a few times I've had to tighten it on her to get her to calm down. But those incidences become less often over time as she gets better and better about knowing what is proper behavior and what isn't. Nowadays, other dogs can get a lot closer than they used to and she will normally still wait for me to put the leash on her. I can see every muscle twitching while she fights the instinct to run after them but she will sit there until the leash if fastened and then she'll act tough and start barking. Although as time goes by, the barking has lessened as well. She also used to jump around a lot like she was trying to get away from me but rarely does this as well anymore.

 

However, I really want to emphasize that her spirit is not gone or diminshed in any way. She is just as rowdy, fun-loving, rambunctious, loving, and fun to be with as before. Well, even funner as I become more confident in my ability to control her as well as her ability to control herself, at least for a little while, until I can put the leash on and exert more control over her.

 

I hope this all makes sense. I'm not in any way trying to tell you what to do. My dog has never harmed a family member and that puts a whole different aspect to the situation you are dealing with. I think what I'm trying to say is that your son and other family members can also be taught better Alpha behaviors. Someone posted something about how Patch's behaviors are only when she is protecting her food and how someone reaching down to pick up a dropped Cheeto could be bit. Yes, that might be a likely scenario.

 

However, I think Patches could be trained to not harm someone doing this if the person who dropped it looks her in the eye, sternly says "no" or whatever word you choose to use as your command, and picks it up while still maintaining control over the dog. After this happens for awhile, her instinct to go after the food item would probably diminish over time but it might never go away and this would just be the way you would always handle it. It's not a big deal and might go a long way to resolving the situation.

 

As for your fears about kids in your neighborhood. Again, being properly restrained or enclosed would be appropriate here. I truly think this is better for any dog when they live in a neighborhood with lots of cars and people regardless of the dog's behavior and inclination to follow certain instincts. It would keep Patches from getting hit by a car, for example.]

 

Of course, the situation may be too far gone for you to consider these options and I sure would talk to a professional first as you are planning to do in order to make an informed decision. I feel for you and I truly do understand the pain you are going through about this.

 

But if your main fear is that your dog wouldn't be the same after being trained not to respond this way, I think that fear is unfounded. It hasn't happened that way with my dog or any other dog I've known. I hope this helps a bit. Again, sorry so long.

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Criminal I really feel for you guy. I might be able to help. And it maybe easier than you think. It could take just a few hours or a couple of days. Sounds crazy? Read on.

 

We have a 6 month old 2 pound Yorkie. We did a lot of study before paying almost $1,000 for him. One of the things that I came across that has really worked well is "Clicker" training. We have trained Scruffy to go potty in a litter box, bark when people approach the house, stop barking on command, fetch and retrieve, walk without pulling on the leash, sit, and let us play with him and his food when he is eating.

 

The training is simple and quick and works with older dogs and pets from the pound. You can check out a really good video and a book with all the step by steps at the pierce county library. Either go to the library or to http://www.pcl.lib.wa.us/ then "online catalog. Video: Puppy love, Call #: VR J636.7088 PUPPY L , ISBN: 1890948020. The book is: Clicking with your dog, Call #: 636.7088 TILLMAN, ISBN: 1890948055

 

It works great for us. Even our kids help train Scruffy. I hope it helps keep you together.

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I almost forgot. There is a dog training school that gives classes in Tacoma. They use clicker training. They have a website that has really good info and class schedule on it. Call them and they can give you the website address.

 

Postitive Approach Dog Training & Daycare

1501 Center Street, Tacoma, WA 98409

(253) 627-4275

 

good luck :unsure:

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Thanks Happy. He's pretty well trained now, but only for Patti and me. He doesn't listne to the kids, even the 16 YO. If he's going haywire in the house, all I have to do is tell him "Down!" and he stops and alys down.

 

I'm still dragging my feet though, trying to keep him.

 

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Sorry to hear of your predicament.

 

Now, I have only had time to skim this message thread, but a couple of

things came to mind (so I may be redundant here).

 

Have you had or considered having the dog neutered?

 

Anyone who belives that breed and genetics doesn't influence temperment

is decieved, whether dliberately or by misinformation.

 

Yes, you can make a Pitbull more or less aggressive by how you train him,

but you cannot make a pitbull behave the same as a Labrador Retriever

by giving both dogs the same training and environment.

 

I have a neutered Lab-Shepherd mix that has not been given any

special training. He was so easy to train it was as if he trained

himself for most of the behaviors we wanted from him.

 

I, or anyone in my family can walk up behind him while he's eating

and pick up his hind end with his tail, and he will just wait for the

person to let him back down, or maybe look back and try to

wag the tail he's being lifted by. I'm pretty sure anyone he knows could

do the same, and I doubt even a stranger would be in much risk of

being growled at, let alone bitten.

 

I challenge anybody to duplicate this behavior from a pitbull.

 

Personally, my dog is LIKE family, some would say he IS family,

but if he became viscious towards my kids without severe provocation,

and I was relatively sure that it was not going to be an isolated incident,

I would either find someone without kids that wanted an otherwise good dog,

or take the dog into the backyard and put him down.

 

There is no way that ANY dog has even 1/1000th the value to me that

my children do.

 

But I tend to think more like a farmer, and consider people who spend thousands

of dollars to save a pet to be lunatics (Now, I never said I'm not a lunatic, or that

being a lunatic is entirely bad...)

Edited by Mark 42
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Have you had or considered having the dog neutered?

 

Yes, we’ve already done that.

 

Yes, you can make a Pitbull more or less aggressive by hoe you train him

 

I don’t believe in hoe training, or shovel training either. Yes, the dog will learn but it’s painful for him.

 

I, or anyone in my family can walk up behind him while he's eating

and pick up his hind end with his tail, and he will just wait for the

person to let him back down, or maybe look back and try to

wag the tail he's being lifted by. I'm pretty sure anyone he knows could

do the same, and I doubt even a stranger would be in much risk of

being growled at, let alone bitten.

 

Patch is much the same way. He’s a baby in all aspects of his behavior except when it comes to dog motivation #1, food. He hasn’t shown the behavior recently, we are trying to get Connor to learn not to place himself in a position where he’s lower in elevation than the dog.

 

I have my fingers crossed. Patti doesn’t want to lose him either, but she is a mom.

Edited by Criminal
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