Destroyed Or Not?

[+FSU*Noles]

Howdy, newbie here. Found QO1897 on a drive-by today - the official description marks it as the cross on top of a green cupola, about 75 feet above the ground.

 

The church is intact, with the markings "St. Albert" still clearly visible on the front. But it's no longer a church, in a bizarre twist there's a banner hanging on front that reads "Kay Marie & Carol's School of Dance".

 

The cross that is used as the benchmark has also been removed, only the building and cupola remain.

 

How would you mark this one, is it officially destroyed? Any advice appreciated, check out the picture below:

 

http://www.visi.com/~ktsoi/stalbert.jpg

 

Thanks in advance,

 

-Ken

[+Klemmer]

Might be an interesting discussion to let the owners know that removing the cross has disturbed an official US Government Survey Marker! WhoooBoy --- this thread could get into a whole thing about separation of Church & State! NGS using religious icons as marks.... Hmmmm... any lawyers out there???

 

Seriously: Personally, I would log it as a find on geocaching.com, including an explanation & piccture. Interesting! And, if you are so inclined, you could submit a recovery report to NGS (on their Datasheet page) at: http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/cgi-bin/datasheet.prl

[+JeremyA]

The datasheet for this benchmark states:

"THE STATION IS A CROSS ON TOP OF A GREEN CUPOLA ABOUT 75 FEET ABOVE THE GROUND."

 

I interpret from this that the benchmark is the cross on top of the church. If the cross is gone then you did not find the benchmark.

 

I would log this as 'not found' at geocaching.com but I wouldn't bother sending anything to the NGS.

 

JeremyA

[+FSU*Noles]

Hmmm, thanks for the two quick replies, I really appreciate it! Can someone please help me then with the difference between "not found" and "destroyed" in this case...if you check out the picture, the cross is clearly gone. I do not have 'first-hand' knowledge of where it is, but it's not there...does that move it into the "destroyed" category since the structure is still clearly intact but the benchmark is gone, or is it still a "not found" because the benchmark is missing? This newbie is so confused! Many thanks again,

 

-Ken

[ArtMan]

Good question. Personally, I wouldn't have described the structure in your picture as a 'cupola.' Typically, the tall thing atop a church (which civilians usually call the steeple) is described as a 'spire.'

 

Maybe I'm being too much of a purist, but I would log this as 'not found.' From the datasheet:

 

QO1897' ...THE STATION

QO1897'IS A CROSS ON TOP OF A GREEN CUPOLA ABOUT 75 FEET ABOVE THE

QO1897'GROUND.

 

Seems to me that if the station, the technical term for the benchmark itself, "is a cross," and the cross is gone, then it can't be a 'find.'

 

On the other hand, this is a third order horizontal station - meaning it is used for lat/long position, not height. So if the location where the cross was previously installed can be correctly determined (and the photo suggests that may be the case), then this benchmark may still be useful for surveying purposes (although possibly not to the same accuracy/precision as before).

 

This is analagous to cases where the benchmark disk may be missing, but the drill hole where it was installed is still present. Did we ever get a consensus on those? Sometimes it's easier to just describe what you've got, rather than have to categorize it.

 

Or so it seems to me.

[+Rich in NEPA]

 

In order to claim that a station is destroyed it's essential to provide adequate evidence that the station was positively identified. So here's how I see it: if I can provide the evidence then it's exactly the same as a regular “Find,” and I do not use the Destroyed logging option.

 

Seeing that it's a fairly straight-forward task to verify the identity of this particular station, there's little doubt that I would be logging it as “Found.” However, since I don't know the entire situation and whether enough of the landmark exists to be useful, it would be a tougher call for me to claim whether it's in “Destroyed Condition” or merely “Poor/Disturbed/Mutilated/Needs Maintenance.” I might simply log it “Found—in Poor Condition” and explain why. Later, if a recovery report is submitted to NGS, I'd wait to see how they will declare it. If NGS updates their datasheet for this station as “Destroyed,” I can always go back and revise my log. Either way I would include at least a photo of the site with my log, as well as a good description of any other evidence I may have discovered (for example, an old photo from the library, or a conversation with someone who has local knowledge of the changes that were made).

 

[Edit] Some recent examples: MEHOOPANY, LZ0106, LY2800 and LY2802.

 

I have to agree with ArtMan that it's sometimes easier to just describe (or photograph) what you found than it is to categorize it's condition.

 

Cheers ...

Edited December 24, 2003 by Rich in NEPA

[+GEO*Trailblazer 1]

Great Descriptions there Rich,and photos as well.

 

I agree on the each Station,Bench Mark,Cross,Spire,Stone,Rivet or other markers used all have their (unique) description,and condition.

Keep up the (GOOD) work.

 

As said each one is unique and requires the (VISIT) to verify the condition of said mark,and it's present condition.

[+FSU*Noles]

Hey, thanks everyone for your help and replies, I appreciate it! I'll mark it as "not found", until maybe some future date when there are more choices for the descriptions.

 

ArtMan, I was thinking that the 'cupola' is actually the little ball on top of the steeple, what do you think? It's still there, just the cross is gone.

 

At any rate, thanks again everyone, hope y'all had a safe and happy holiday!

 

-Ken