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The Meter Of Shame


Bob&TheGang

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My computer hates me tonight when I try to quote. So without quotes:

 

Johnnie Stalkers: I don't think "most influential" is a good title for me when I am so wishy washy. But I do speak my wishy washy mind and mean every wishy washy statement! I'm still trying to decide what to make of that.

 

Co Admin: Ha! You can get to the border, but I am closer to Iowa! Try getting here in an hour and 1/2!

:)

 

I know when my $5 is safe! No one ever comes to Nebraska, they just pass through if they must (yet it is a great place)! :)

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My computer hates me tonight when I try to quote. So without quotes:

 

Johnnie Stalkers: I don't think "most influential" is a good title for me when I am so wishy washy. But I do speak my wishy washy mind and mean every wishy washy statement! I'm still trying to decide what to make of that.

 

Co Admin: Ha! You can get to the border, but I am closer to Iowa! Try getting here in an hour and 1/2!

:)

 

I know when my $5 is safe! No one ever comes to Nebraska, they just pass through if they must (yet it is a great place)! :)

I've been through it once all the way from Ogallala to Omaha. I've also been to the Cabela's in Sidney.

Edited by Team GPSaxophone
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I've been through it once all the way from Ogallala to Omaha. I've also been to the Cabela's in Sidney.

 

I love Cabelas. I was disappointed the last time there though. They had tons of ammo cans for something like $.50 each at the sidewalk sale. Well, they were all dented to the point where the lids would not close or be waterproof. I dug through tons of them for some time and found no keepers. :)

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Tell you what, I'll put in a special FTF prize if you come find my next cache. :)

Well I don't know about that but what if I send one of my Favorite travel bugs to AZ for ya to grab?

As long as it comes through New Mexico... :) send me a link to your bug if you do

Here's Cindy, My TB Its rumored that she is going to be at this Cabelas event on the 28th, the one that 360 is coming to. :)

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Please send some examples of non-offensive tv........

The only shows that have "BEEP"-sound are american shows on Swedish TV. For example have we every year a special christmas show for kids, from Dec 1 to Dec 24. It's a different every year, and this year it was a tv-serie about a young kids that got into trouble all the time. He's father are a feminist and drinking vodka in the serie. The son lays his hands on his teachers siliconboobies.. Just to mention some things - and now we are talking show for kids...

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Please send some examples of non-offensive tv........

The only shows that have "BEEP"-sound are american shows on Swedish TV. For example have we every year a special christmas show for kids, from Dec 1 to Dec 24. It's a different every year, and this year it was a tv-serie about a young kids that got into trouble all the time. He's father are a feminist and drinking vodka in the serie. The son lays his hands on his teachers siliconboobies.. Just to mention some things - and now we are talking show for kids...

Its nothing new that American TV is very censored and our culture is very puritan compared to Europeans. For example, a young American woman would be embarrassed to be seen in a towel (covering her from shoulders to knees) when getting out of the shower but will go to the beach in a tiny bikini and thong without any embarassment... I agree its crazy

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I do understand what you are saying about comparing people to others woodsters. I guess I feel that I'm not comparing but rather giving an example of posters that do post in a civil and respectful manner. You can see that I am big on giving examples.

 

In my opinion you can modivate people to change. That is leadership.

And you know I am big on examples as well. Giving examples is the same thing as comparing one thing to another. And it should be one "thing" to another, but not one "person" to another. We are all different. We interpret and communicate differently. One may say something and we think we understand it 100%, but really we don't. Some people do communicate better than others. But each and everyone is differently.

 

Modivating is not a positive way of making someone change. Modding is normally not a positive thing to the person you are modding, so there's no positive effect. Motivating although is an entirely different story. But once again, only those that are willing to change, will. Moderate them and don't try to modivate. By modivating, you are trying to incorporate both negativism and positivism into one. Kind of like saying you are ugly, but I still love you.

 

If you want to incorporate leadership into your moderation duties, then lead by example, don't make "ideal posters" examples. If you are going to do that, then it needs to be incorporated into the policies or rules for the forums as to the "ideal" way of postings to be written. Yep, canned posts. Select from the multiple choices of what your reply will be. They are all politically correct. Be consistent (not just you, but all mods overall). Don't warn/ban someone from derailing a thread and then turn around and do one yourself (just like this thread after our last postings last night).

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I do understand what you are saying about comparing people to others woodsters.  I guess I feel that I'm not comparing but rather giving an example of posters that do post in a civil and respectful manner.  You can see that I am big on giving examples.

 

In my opinion you can modivate people to change.  That is leadership.

And you know I am big on examples as well. Giving examples is the same thing as comparing one thing to another. And it should be one "thing" to another, but not one "person" to another. We are all different. We interpret and communicate differently. One may say something and we think we understand it 100%, but really we don't. Some people do communicate better than others. But each and everyone is differently.

 

Modivating is not a positive way of making someone change. Modding is normally not a positive thing to the person you are modding, so there's no positive effect. Motivating although is an entirely different story. But once again, only those that are willing to change, will. Moderate them and don't try to modivate. By modivating, you are trying to incorporate both negativism and positivism into one. Kind of like saying you are ugly, but I still love you.

 

If you want to incorporate leadership into your moderation duties, then lead by example, don't make "ideal posters" examples. If you are going to do that, then it needs to be incorporated into the policies or rules for the forums as to the "ideal" way of postings to be written. Yep, canned posts. Select from the multiple choices of what your reply will be. They are all politically correct. Be consistent (not just you, but all mods overall). Don't warn/ban someone from derailing a thread and then turn around and do one yourself (just like this thread after our last postings last night).

I'm too sober to understand all that. :) I'll give it another shot after I've had a few eggnogs tonight. Then I'm sure it will clear up for me. :)

 

El Diablo

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I guess you missed my first sentence, "I do understand what you are saying about comparing people to others woodsters."

 

I work with troubled kids. Motivation is indeed a way to help people. Motivating people is not "trying to incorporate both negativism and positivism into one". Motivation is not saying "you are ugly, but I still love you", but rather "you are as good a person as anyone else out there". Motivation is saying things like:

Good discussions are easily fostered by simply respecting each other and following the guidelines for these forums.  At this time of holiday reflection and for giving thanks for what we have it might be good to remember that it is best to do unto other people as you would want them to do unto you.  Words to live by.

 

The bad thing about modding is that it is almost always a negative thing. A negative action almost always precipitates it. The person that is modded most of the time will not be happy. That is a fact of life. I guess its like being "modded" when you drive 90 MPH down the highway and eventually get a ticket. I don't know of anyone that is happy about getting a ticket. The key is what you do after that. I've gotten tickets in the past, but I don't drive as fast now so all is well and I am a more relaxed driver. This can be done here in the forums as well. As Doc-Dean said: "I wiped out my 10% by making meaningful posts and helping out others... " He turned a negative situation into a positive situation and eventually decreased his warn meter level. I'm sure he is a more relaxed forum participant as well.

 

A good possible rule of thumb might be that if you think the post may be over the line and might have the potential to induce a warning, then it might be best not to post it. That's the way I post.

 

And with that, I think I'm done on the subject. (...and the crowd cheers! :) )

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The person that is modded most of the time will not be happy.

 

Only when it appears arbitrary. :)

 

I guess its like being "modded" when you drive 90 MPH down the highway and eventually get a ticket. I don't know of anyone that is happy about getting a ticket.

 

The other drivers not subjected to you are happy! :)

 

As Doc-Dean said: "I wiped out my 10% by making meaningful posts and helping out others... " He turned a negative situation into a positive situation and eventually decreased his warn meter level.

 

Hasn’t been my experience. Appears somewhat arbitrary. :)

 

A good possible rule of thumb might be that if you think the post may be over the line and might have the potential to induce a warning, then it might be best not to post it. That's the way I post.

 

Good advice. I could write a book with the posts I’ve never posted. :) I’m self moderating!

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No I didn't miss it and a matter of fact I quoted it. I was referring to using examples. It's the same thing as comparing. You used people as examples, so then you are comparing them still.

 

The thing about modding is that it is a negative thing, at least to those being modded. It's the way they see it, especially when they don't see a reason why. You and I may see the reason, but they may not. Moderating is in no comparison to getting a traffic ticket. Because while a police officer may be issuing you a ticket for violating the laws right now, tomorrow they may be saving someones life or helping them change a tire. A police officers job is far more than to enforce the rules. A moderators job is more or less more of a straight line, enforce the policies. Doc-Deans example of him getting his warn lowered is a great thing. Was his initial warning needed? I have no idea as I don't even recall what it was. His was lowered for helping others and posting meaningful posts. Ok so what about all the other times when people that are banned that have helped others or posted meaningful posts? Do they get a "get out of jail free" card when they make those posts? Perhaps a merit/demerit system is needed if this is the way it works. Or at least now people know if they get a warning, all they need to do is blow smoke up someones butt and appear to help others. Not saying that is what DocDean did, but they know if that it can happen to others, then they will do it even if it is fabricated. Others are banned from posting for periods of time, therefore they don't even receive that chance to post something worthwhile of dropping their warn. One moderator may warn for something, while another won't. One may give a 10% warning while another may abn them for 3 days. Then on top of that, their are mods doing the same thing that others are getting warned/banned for. Someone mentioned "hypocrisy" somewhere. Is it true? I don't know, but seeing it from the backseat it appears that way. Come up with a moderator plan of action and have them all go by it. TPTB should be moderating the moderators and ensuring they are acting accordingly. Obviously it's not done because all we see is that they back up each thing their mods/approvers do (we wouldn't expect any less) and folks can see that mods/approvers do the same thing as others.

 

I do agree, that if you feel a post is towing the line, then it's best to not post it, especially if being moderated is not what you want.

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A good possible rule of thumb might be that if you think the post may be over the line and might have the potential to induce a warning, then it might be best not to post it. That's the way I post.

 

Good advice. I could write a book with the posts I’ve never posted. :) I’m self moderating!

True here, also. If this were an "R" rated adult forum, I'd be in the top 3 of the all-time posters list! :)

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The thing about modding is that it is a negative thing, at least to those being modded. It's the way they see it, especially when they don't see a reason why. You and I may see the reason, but they may not. Moderating is in no comparison to getting a traffic ticket. Because while a police officer may be issuing you a ticket for violating the laws right now, tomorrow they may be saving someones life or helping them change a tire.

Earlier someone mentioned that too many traffic tickets will get you banned from driving. Apply that logic with the Warn system. Banning some people at 10% and others remaining with a 50% warning makes the warning system irrelevant.

 

Also, if you receive too many tickets, but not enough to be banned from driving, the police officer doesn't ride with you in your car for 3 days, either, "moderating" your speed. If you want to use the warning meters, make them relevant to something, and make them constructive. Jeremy has said they are a teaching tool, so use them as such, not as a "Meter of Shame" as is the topic of this thread.

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Exactly Sparky. Have a guide to go by. A warning gets a certain percentage and lasts for whatever period of time. It should be when you reach 100% that you are restricted, banned or whatever you call it. Of course then, there should be levels of restriction as well. Of course the offenses should be carried accordingly with the appropriate levels of warning. Make it public as well. That way a person knows that they will get such an such for this or that. Right now, it appears a free for all, especially by the moderators. At least put some consistency into it.

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Exactly Sparky. Have a guide to go by. A warning gets a certain percentage and lasts for whatever period of time. It should be when you reach 100% that you are restricted, banned or whatever you call it. Of course then, there should be levels of restriction as well. Of course the offenses should be carried accordingly with the appropriate levels of warning. Make it public as well. That way a person knows that they will get such an such for this or that. Right now, it appears a free for all, especially by the moderators. At least put some consistency into it.

You could start moderating a member when they reach a certain percentage level, say 60%, and thereby, prevent anyone from reaching the 100% level and getting banned. I would think that after 3 moderations in a given time, they could be dismissed from the forums for a preset amount of time, also. Use it as both a teaching tool and a helping tool at the same time.

 

Any thoughts, Jeremy?

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Earlier someone mentioned that too many traffic tickets will get you banned from driving. Apply that logic with the Warn system. Banning some people at 10% and others remaining with a 50% warning makes the warning system irrelevant.

 

So if I get pulled over for drunk driving I should only get a 10% warning vs. a ban?

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Exactly Sparky. Have a guide to go by. A warning gets a certain percentage and lasts for whatever period of time. It should be when you reach 100% that you are restricted, banned or whatever you call it. Of course then, there should be levels of restriction as well. Of course the offenses should be carried accordingly with the appropriate levels of warning. Make it public as well. That way a person knows that they will get such an such for this or that. Right now, it appears a free for all, especially by the moderators. At least put some consistency into it.

Why don’t we just have Groundspeak write up a constitution? Maybe we could even have legislative body with elected representatives and everything. Of course then we would need judges and courts to settle the disputes and lawyers to represent the accused. Which would also mean we would need appellate courts and of course a supreme court.

 

It’s a forum for pete’s sake! A privately owned forum that has given us guidelines as to what is expected of us if we wish to participate in them. They have also given us the moderators as guides and leaders. They are under no obligation to set into stone a set of rules. If people would just treat others with decency and respect and stay within the guidelines, there would be no need for moderators much less warn meters.

 

The moderators may be arbitrary in some ways. These are not trained professionals that have a college degree in moderation. These are individuals that are volunteering the personal time to try and make the forums as pleasant and positive as possible. I for one think they do an outstanding job!

 

Now...everyone go have a Merry Christmas.

 

El Diablo

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If someone comes into the forums and with their first post and uses vulgar language and post pornographic pictures with links to XXX web sites and has a username that is a cuss word I would imagine that they would be permanently banned immediately. There are no absolutes, so that's why you have to make judgment calls. Granted this isn't perfect all the time, but you can't have absolutes.

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Exactly Sparky. Have a guide to go by. A warning gets a certain percentage and lasts for whatever period of time. It should be when you reach 100% that you are restricted, banned or whatever you call it. Of course then, there should be levels of restriction as well. Of course the offenses should be carried accordingly with the appropriate levels of warning. Make it public as well. That way a person knows that they will get such an such for this or that. Right now, it appears a free for all, especially by the moderators. At least put some consistency into it.

As stated earlier (by Hydee, I think) the warn meter is not a "meter of shame." It is a tool for the moderators to use, a record of mod activities concerning any individual. It is not public. It should not be public. The moderation that goes on here should be private. There should be no hard rules. It is arbitrary and should remain that way. Each circumstance is different. Like at work. You wouldn't want to be disciplined (if that's what you want to call it) in front of your peers.

 

Moderation may not be pleasant, but it does exist, and all the whining in the world will only get you moderated. As mtn-man, Criminal, and others have said, the ideal moderation is self-moderation. As Woodsters said, we all are different and we all have different opinions. The result in, any discussion, will lead to a potential for moderation.

 

The warn meter is a private record of this moderation. With the exception of discussions like this one, it is not publicly known who's been moderated and who hasn't.

 

As far as consistancy in the application of mod guidlines, well, life isn't guaranteed to be fair. And "fair" to you may not be fair to me. There's nothing I can do about that. So I go on with my life and make the best of it. I go with the flow. I hate paddling upstream.

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Earlier someone mentioned that too many traffic tickets will get you banned from driving.  Apply that logic with the Warn system.  Banning some people at 10% and others remaining with a 50% warning makes the warning system irrelevant. 

 

So if I get pulled over for drunk driving I should only get a 10% warning vs. a ban?

I'm sorry, I didn't exactly make my point clear on this. Different levels of offense obviously would mean different levels of warnings. And, as mm said, if someone comes in posting all that XXX stuff, yeah, a quick ban would be in order, however, not for life.

 

And, as el diablo stated, this is just a forum! Many have echoed the statement about treating each other with respect. It pretty much boils down to that, over and over again.

 

I still think that preset guidelines that are adhered to would keep a lot of the whining about inconsistency down. Sure, everyone has different ideas of what is fair, and what is not. Some people think they should be able to drive drunk, where others think you should be able to drive only half-drunk, and yet others think that any amount of alcohol consumption is unacceptable.

 

My point isn't about differing opinions on speeding vs dui, it's about having consistency in the warn/ban process. Pretty simple if it is followed.

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El Diablo....puh lease....I'll leave it just at that.

 

mtn-man...I agree...certain things should result in certain things. Of course with the example you used, then a ban should be appropriate.

 

sept1c....that's the problem. Too many arbitrators, arbitratiing the same things in different ways. For example I would expect the same warning results from all moderators. An across the board moderation. It should not be that mod x gives me 10% while mod y gives me a 3 day ban with no warn percentage at all for the same things.

 

I've not received any of it, but those who have obviously are a little upset about how it is given or what is given by different mods. Some mods are harder on folks than others are.

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It should not be that mod x gives me 10% while mod y gives me a 3 day ban with no warn percentage at all for the same things.

 

I could be wrong on this as I'm not completely sure but I think to date it has only been mod J that has handed out any bans. :)

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Earlier someone mentioned that too many traffic tickets will get you banned from driving.  Apply that logic with the Warn system.  Banning some people at 10% and others remaining with a 50% warning makes the warning system irrelevant. 

 

So if I get pulled over for drunk driving I should only get a 10% warning vs. a ban?

In New Mexico you don't even get that much!

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The argument that different mods reacting differently is unfair makes no sense to me. My parents never handled things exactly the same, some things mom was cool with, some things dad was cool with. As a kid I knew who to ask depending on what I wanted. I also knew who to get caught by if I was messing up. The real world is the same, some employers / supervisors / customers are easier to get along with than others. Seems pretty simple to me. Expecting the mods to be above everyone else in the world is unrealistic.

 

Edited for spelling.

Edited by Johnnie Stalkers
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The argument that different mods reacting differently is unfair makes no sense to me. My parents never handled things exactly the same, some things mom was cool with, some things dad was cool with. As a kid I knew who to ask depending on what I wanted. I also knew who to get caught by if I was messing up. The real world is the same, some employers / supervisors / customers are easier to get along with than others. Seems pretty simple to me. Expecting the mods to be above everyone else in the world is unrealistic.

 

Edited for spelling.

But in the real world, you're allowed to plead your case before any punishment is handed out.

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The argument that different mods reacting differently is unfair makes no sense to me. My parents never handled things exactly the same, some things mom was cool with, some things dad was cool with. As a kid I knew who to ask depending on what I wanted......

Awww come on though, what you mentioned is not nearly as serious as this forum stuff. :):):)

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So if I read this thread correctly...............

 

There are people that post here that want to see rules of posting set and made permanent?

 

I see two problems arising from this.

 

1) Society is fluid. Things change every day.

 

2) Having the rules spelled out in black and white (with no room for a Judgment call) only opens the door for a handful of people to start trying to beat the system. That would (in essence) allow people to post in a way the owner of this website has decided is not acceptable. All the while pointing to the RULES and circumventing them as loop holes are found.

 

If you folks think you're fooling anybody you are incorrect. The people complaining the most about moderation are the ones that brought it upon a web forum that until they arrived was in no need of it. This forum was created and maintained for a particular purpose. I'm sure you can find another playground to act up in. You reap what you sow.

Edited by Harrald
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Did you ever do anything in front of your dad that you couldn't in front of your mom? I imagine yes. But the difference is, that you aren't even sure who is watching or who will take action against you. You could walk a very tight rope and stay out of everyone's way (which isn't that hard to do), but many don't feel they should have to. Also on that comparison with your parents, what would you say if today your mom said you couldn't do this, but tomorrow you do it and she says nothing. Then you do it the next day and wham, punishment. Then the next day, she let's you get by with it. And then wham again. And then what if your dad, goes back and forth like that too...it's inconsistent. One should know what they are doing and getting themselves into. If i'm allowed to do this today, then I should be able to do it tomorrow. And if I'm not allowed to do it, then I would expect the mods to lead by example and not do it as well.

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Any thoughts, Jeremy?

Yeah. You guys sure love your rules.

We do? The last time I looked there were a set of them here.

Rules...hmm...

 

Don't post off-topic unless you're a moderator

Don't compare anyone on this site to anyone else, even if you're not comparing them

Report mods if you have a problem with them

Don't report mods for going off-topic

Don't derail threads, start a new topic instead

Don't start a new topic because it's probably being discussed already

Don't start a new topic because it was discussed 2 years ago

Don't dig up old threads becasue they are not relevant anymore

 

Confusing or truth?

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So if I read this thread correctly...............

 

There are people that post here that want to see rules of posting set and made permanent?

 

I see two problems arising from this.

 

1) Society is fluid. Things change every day.

 

2) Having the rules spelled out in black and white (with no room for a Judgment call) only opens the door for a handful of people to start trying to beat the system. That would (in essence) allow people to post in a way the owner of this website has decided is not acceptable. All the while pointing to the RULES and circumventing them as loop holes are found.

 

If you folks think you're fooling anybody you are incorrect. The people complaining the most about moderation are the ones that brought it upon a web forum that until they arrived was in no need of it. This forum was created and maintained for a particular purpose. I'm sure you can find another playground to act up in. You reap what you sow.

I don't think people have a problem with what gets moderated for the most part. I believe it's more or less of the inconsitency of what gets moderated. As a mod, don't warn people or ban them for derailing a thread and then do it yourself. Also the inconsistency between the moderators. It's not like the moderators are all on the same playing field. You have certain ones who are more relaxed about things, while others are more a bit uptight. Kind of like putting Larry Flint and the Pope in the same room and letting them mod. I know that is extreme, but that's what it appears to be.

 

The need is for a consistent pattern of punishment handed out across the board. If Jeremy says no cussing allowed on my board and one moderator lets things go and another one slams the door on it, is the one that lets it go derilicting in duty or the the door slammer being too harsh? You are right about there being room. There needs to be. Just as you questioned about rules being in B&W, there's a difference in the mod styles like B&W.

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Rules...hmm...

 

Don't post off-topic unless you're a moderator

blah

blah

blah

I think its been said that OT is not so bad as long as its not to intentionally derail a thread and that its not done in a way to flame or be nasty to someone.

Heh, quoting myself. (I love it)

 

I guess the other thing that I read there is that even though we have all had some fun in threads together being OT you don't want that to happen anymore and that no desecration should be used with OT posts.

 

Did I read that right?

 

As far as what J said above it does really sound like everyone is asking for more rules. I think if that happens then things are going to continue to get uglier than they already are and thats just said. I think everyone should re-think what is being asked for.

 

Isn't that how all this came about in the first place?

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jokingly, but did all the mods get that memo? :)

Maybe not and maybe its just me speaking out of turn on this one but I can for see that if everyone keeps asking for something different than what I posted then we will be sure to see it here. I would hate to see that personally.

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Well let me say this. I saw the one thread I believe it was last week, where people, even the moderators, were joking and having fun. I even mentioned to my wife that hell must of froze over. I was pleasantly surprised. Then not too long afterward, like a water faucet, as soon as it was turned on, it was turned off and things were back to the same old thing. I did think that there was going to be some unity between the mods and the knuckleheads. I don't think their is really a need of rules for the most part. You already have mods. Jut give them the guidelines of what is to be done. Perhaps a flow chart of some sort. I'm not a mod. Perhaps there is already one. If there is, it's not an effective or consistent one. Assign values to infractions against the rules already in place. i.e. cursing gets a 10% warn, flaming gets 10%, etc...give each one a value. Then when a person does one, give them the right amount, keep adding it on. When they get to 100%, give them a 3 day break or whatever value assigned. Put them on a probation for a certain amount of time. After a 3 day ban, if they screw up again within the probationary period, make it a higher ban and so on. Not sure as what the system is for removing warns, but have a set period. Have only Jeremey (which it may be already) as the only one to over ride warnings (remove them). Just some suggestions.... Just as I know that if I go a certain speed limit over the maximum amount that my ticket will be a certain amount. I also know that I acquire points on my driving record and that if I reach a certain amount, then my license is suspended. Of course different infractions result in different punishments, but you know what's going to happen.

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Geeez woody, if all that was asked of me then I think they better start paying better. :)

 

Seriously I think you are trying to make things more complex then they need to be. My idea is that eveyone gets along and plays it cool then there will be no need for guidelines. That seems much easier to me, but thats me, why is it nobody else understands these simple things................. :)

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