Subjective Opinions

December 20, 2003

I received a log today on one of my caches and it read:

Took two tries. No offense, but I'd wear gloves on this one. Pretty unsavory location, from a germ standpoint. It's always great to see a new cache, and I truly appreciate the effort that goes to putting one out, but this spot is kind of gross.

I need to vent. :mad: Basically this person is saying, "Hey thanks for the effort, but your cache stinks."

I am over it now since I deleted the log from the cache page, but has this happened to anybody else? Any thoughts?

By the way the aforementioned cache location is similar to a million other geocache locations. The descriptions of gross and dirty are unfounded.

-Ryan

24.7k · December 20, 2003

Yup. I let the log stay.

December 20, 2003

Its your cache, its your call.

I have had my logs deleted because : you were not there on the 13th you were there on the 14th I checked the log book. ( I don’t date my logs any more this happen three times )

I have deleted logs that gave spoilers and ask them to re-log it without them, and one cacher that called me a thief on his cache page and still deleting him until he tells me he is sorry. dream on, he is as stubborn as me

…………………JOE

38.2k · December 20, 2003

I think it's wrong to delete legit find logs unless they contain profanity, or unwanted spoilers. It both cases it's a courtesy to ask the logger to change it first and only delete it if they refuse.

If the log is critical of your cache, so be it. That's the person's opinion. If it's one person who is critical and the rest have no problem, you can rest easily knowing that your cache is fine and the problem is with that person. If you get a number of critical logs, then maybe you should re-think your cache.

One of the points of logs is for finders to provide feedback to the owner, whether its positive, or negative. I know of one person who complains about ticks in almost every cache log. Yeah, there are ticks out there. Caches are outdoors. Still, I'd never delete one of his logs even though there is a possibility that it could scare off people. If we started deleting every log that complained about mud, ticks, rocks, poison ivy, germs, what have you, there is going to be a lot of deleting going on. Which brings out another issue. You start deleting someones logs and you may find yourself in the middle of a log deletion war. There have been instances of people getting into juvenile "You deleted my log, so I'm deleting yours" battles, believe it or not.

Edited December 20, 2003 by briansnat

December 20, 2003

If the log is critical of your cache, so be it. That's the person's opinion. If it's one person who is critical and the rest have no problem, you can rest easily knowing that your cache is fine and the problem is with that person. If you get a number of critical logs, then maybe you should re-think your cache.

Yep.

Could you describe the location of the cache?

Edited December 20, 2003 by OUTSID4EVR

2k · December 20, 2003

I think it's rude to delete a log. If you have issues with what a cacher said, post a note after their log explaining the situation. Not sure what happened in this case ... it might be interesting to look at the other logs the cacher made to see if he/she has some sort of phobia!

4.5k · December 20, 2003

It does hurt when you get a negative post. But you cannot please everyone. I read the log page and frankly I think your replacement post is worse then the original log. It'll scare more people away then the original. Also, the other finders' posts were not negative so don't let one post get you down.

PS: I wouldn't hunt any of that guy's caches or you might find your logs deleted too.

December 20, 2003

I would not like the log myself, did you ask for feedback through email to clarify? Did you check on the cache to see if the person was justified? (maybe something has changed or the cache has been plundered)

1.1k · December 20, 2003

This isn't the Port-O-Potty Cache is it?

9.4k · December 20, 2003

The most I've done is delete a picture that gave too much away. I emailed the finder about it so he could post an edited picture.

Since there is a warning that logs may contain spoilers, I'd just encrypt any log that gave too much away.

4.2k · December 20, 2003

I've only had one negative post on any of my caches, and the cacher deleted it after I contacted them via e-mail.

He complained about the route to get to the cache (private little mountain road with unfriendlies). After reading the log I knew he had taken the wrong road and contacted him via e-mail to correct him.

When he realized the mistake, he deleted the log himself.

Had he left it, I would have been inclined to just post a note rather than delete it myself. With all the other logs NOT complaining about the cache, his would have stood out as the exception rather than the rule.

3k · December 20, 2003

I just don't get it. You delete his log for saying something about the caceh being gross and dirty. And yet you replace with a log of your own saying don't call my cache gross and dirty, in effect letting everyone know the cache is potentially gross and dirty. In this case I would have let the log stay or ask them to edit to clean it up. You defeated your own purpose of deleting the log. That doesn't make sense.

And you Left Coasters will put caches anywhere won't you?

3.5k · December 20, 2003

I think that a log that is negative in tone and does not offer *constructive* criticism, such as the log in question, can be deleted.

2.3k · December 20, 2003

I think that a log that is negative in tone and does not offer *constructive* criticism, such as the log in question, can be deleted.

A log should not be deleted just because it has a negative tone. Get some tougher skin... not everyone is going to agree with everything you say or do.

Is deleting the log being done just to make you feel better

or is it being done because it is better for the cache and any

future visitors???

I agree with those who say post a note refuting the negative claim and let

everyone make their own decisions on whether to believe it or not...

2.1k · December 20, 2003

I think that a log that is negative in tone and does not offer *constructive* criticism, such as the log in question, can be deleted.

I think that any log if it is true that the finder did find the cache (even regardless of date) should be left alone. If you don't like the log, tough it out, nobody said everyone needs to be happy about every find. Should that person be a jerk and write mean and nasty things in your logs? No, everyone should be courteous, but it doesn't happen all the time.

As for this particular log, I think deleting it was overreaction. So they said you hid it in a gross, dirty place? Wow. Them's fightin' words! Dirty! Imagine a box outside being dirty! It's amazing that you didn't ask GC.com to just shutdown their account!

If "this spot was kind of gross" is the level at which log deletion takes place for you, so be it, but that doesn't make you any more right than they were. There is still the notion that you should be bigger than the other person so that you might lead them by example.

If they put a note that was not constructive, I could see deleting it, but a Found log is this system's way of marking it out of your find list and keeping track of your numbers. By deleting it (since you can't just edit out the text), you are saying "no, it is not true that you found my cache" and unless the log attached to the smilie face was obscene or a blatant lie (like 'don't do this cache it's balanced over a 400 foot deep hole'), then I don't think it should be deleted. You don't have to like the finder or what they think, but you should also be a lot slower to screw up their numbers and things. If this cache wasn't at the top of their filtered list, then it may be a while before they would even realize it was deleted (last I heard, there's no alert mailed to you if hiders delete your logs).

Like the topic was rightly stated, each log is a subjective opinion and while you may not agree with their opinion of your cache hiding skills or specific placement of *this* cache, you should at least respect it and leave their log alone.

9.2k · December 20, 2003

Calling a cache "unsavory" is hardly grounds for denying the logger credit for their find.

2.6k · December 20, 2003

They found your cache. They deserve a find.

2.1k · December 20, 2003

BTW, I have another subjective opinion about this cache....

The BGSOUND tag with an unending loop of the Mexican Hat Dance is gross...makes me almost want to go use Netscape.

December 20, 2003

You shouldn't delete it. Found logs with a negative tone and DNF logs can be the most telling of a cache's history. There is no rating system on GC.com for finders to evaluate a cache, other than through the online logs.

Edited December 20, 2003 by Ce'Nedra

2.3k · December 20, 2003

YOu can always encrypt that portion of the log you find offensive.

December 20, 2003

The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error. ~John Stuart Mill, On Liberty, 1859

1.1k · December 20, 2003

I think that a log that is negative in tone and does not offer *constructive* criticism, such as the log in question, can be deleted.

A log should not be deleted just because it has a negative tone. Get some tougher skin... not everyone is going to agree with everything you say or do.

Is deleting the log being done just to make you feel better

or is it being done because it is better for the cache and any

future visitors???

I agree with those who say post a note refuting the negative claim and let

everyone make their own decisions on whether to believe it or not...

I agree with Doc on this one. Had a brand new cacher log our cache Like this. My response was to post this note. Note. What I did not do is delete his log, he made a mistake. I didn't want other cachers to think there was a problem, and I didn't want to discourage a newbie.

4k · December 20, 2003

JS, if the coords put them 5 miles north of the cache, how the heck did they ever find it? Sorry to be off topic, but it just seems a bit odd.

December 20, 2003

Thanks for the opinions. Amends will be made and the world will be a happier place.

-Ryan

2.6k · December 20, 2003

Thanks for the opinions. Amends will be made and the world will be a happier place.

Yeah!! Let's party!

1.1k · December 20, 2003

JS, if the coords put them 5 miles north of the cache, how the heck did they ever find it? Sorry to be off topic, but it just seems a bit odd.

I am an educated man but I am afraid I cannot speak intelligently about the caching habits of this particular cacher.

December 20, 2003

Glad to see this issue resolved. BTW, can I point out that all opinions, even "expert" ones are subjective?

1.1k · December 20, 2003

Glad to see this issue resolved. BTW, can I point out that all opinions, even "expert" ones are subjective?

I disagree.

1.3k · December 20, 2003

I still believe that there should never be a bad or negative find log on a cache page. An intelligent person would stop searching for the cache if they felt uncomfortable. If the area is too dirty for you, go away. Don't keep looking in all the filth untill you find the cache, and then complain about it. We all have the option to stop searching the instant we decide we don't like the conditions at the cache site. The fact that people press on through the very stuff they complain about until they find the container is interesting. It obviously wasn't bad enough to deter them from finding the cache, so they ought to keep their mouth shut. If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all.

On the other hand, I have never deleted or encypted any of the logs to my cache pages, even the spoilers. There is a warning that the logs can contain spoilers right above the logs on every page. I will however delete any logs containing references to seafood written in french, or the letters DPM.

1.1k · December 20, 2003

It obviously wasn't bad enough to deter them from finding the cache, so they ought to keep their mouth shut. If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all.

So, if they DO stop because the area is unsafe/unsavory, or the location is revolting, or some weed head hid the cache in a bag of trash and t'ain't no one gonna fish through that puppy, we can't log a "DNF" expressing the reason we didn't follow through?

We recently found a cache in a big ol' empty stump, covered with an empty, wet case-of-beer carton and all the empties that came out of it. We pressed on using a big stick to get rid of all the trash covering the box, but you can darn well bet I mentioned the cache was covered in garbage in my log. Encrypted, of course, but still. Is is SUPPOSED to be covered in trash or what? (Being the good little cachers we are, we covered it back up just like we found it.)

As a cacher, I'd rather people said what they thought was up in their logs, as a cache-hider, same... tell me what you really think. I can take it. How tough is it to go check it out to see if what they said is true and to add a note afterward saying you'd been there and all is good in the land of cache-dom? What? You're too busy to check out the cache? Hm...

-=-

michelle

1.3k · December 20, 2003

If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all.

Personally, I think the guy behind me deserves to know that the cache is located on private property between two sinkholes that might be a little hard to see when the snow gets deeper. I'm not sure if saying that is a "subjective opinion" or not, but I'd want to know if I was him.

Given a choice between nice and honest, I'll take honest, thank you.

---------

Edit: added all the following silliness.

As I think about it, I'm more and more sure there is a need for negative honest feedback.

Given that some people are currently unable to maintain their caches (much like some people seem unable to return the TBs they're holding), someone else must do maintainence on the cache. The community seems to think that the community should help in maintaining the cache. They seem to feel that only the owner should be the one to actually remove it, but as far as repairing it and trashing out the joint, that's a community project.

Therefore there's a lot of negative feedback that needs to be left such as:

"Please bring a log book/pencil/trash bag/ammo can/whatever with you on your visit."

"There is a dead skunk/deer/park manager that needs to be removed. I wasn't going to touch it."

"Bees have built a hive around the tupperware container. If you're alergic, try another cache".

"There's a lot of quicksand if you approach from the south..."

"DNF as there was a mountain lion with cubs in the approximate location of the cache."

"DNF. Hobo cache is very well named. The homeless people here did not appreciate my night caching. Took dump in pants. Left nothing."

"Found bear trap."

"Wear red, the #*!% hunters out here are idiots."

"Thought cache was located at the top of the cliff. Coordinates are still the same but elevation appears to have changed. Saw cache but needed better equipment in order to be able to sign the log book."

"Found beavers. Found beaver dam. Did not find cache. Reccomend next cacher brings SCUBA gear."

Edited December 21, 2003 by bons

2.6k · December 21, 2003

I still believe that there should never be a bad or negative find log on a cache page. An intelligent person would stop searching for the cache if they felt uncomfortable. If the area is too dirty for you, go away. Don't keep looking in all the filth untill you find the cache, and then complain about it. We all have the option to stop searching the instant we decide we don't like the conditions at the cache site. The fact that people press on through the very stuff they complain about until they find the container is interesting. It obviously wasn't bad enough to deter them from finding the cache, so they ought to keep their mouth shut. If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all.

WoW! That's an outrageous expectation. Very weird reverse logic. It's funny that you would question the intelligence of others who are only compelled to succeed.

The cache hider is the only one that must meet expectations. Make your cache interesting and memorable. Especially if you don't want to hear complaints.

Do you expect everyone to lie about their experience? I think that is contrary to the nature of the log it self.

December 21, 2003

It's all in the hide, right? The whole idea of this is to get people to come to a place that you want them to see, not just any old spot, just so you can say --that's my cache, find it ! If these are your only options, just search and never mind hiding.

4.8k · December 21, 2003

I wouldn't delete a negative log. I might respond to it with a note or a private email. I would maybe encrypt spoilers.

As for negative logs, I think in many cases they can be helpful to the owner even if they maybe could have been worded better. With that said, I once saw the following two logs (neither were on one of my caches, I just came across them) that just baffled me: (1) In a cache stating that it had a special first finder prize, the first finder wrote "nothing special here." Maybe they meant the prize was gone or something, but it sure sounded odd! (2) "took a lame signature item and left my signature card." Now if they thought the item they took was "lame" why take it, much less mention it?????

2.6k · December 21, 2003

I still believe that there should never be a bad or negative find log on a cache page.

So I should lie about I hurt my leg when I tripped near the cache? Or that someone had dumped a month worth of their household garbage right on the cache? Or that I saw an exhibitionist on the way to the cache site? Or that the cache was 150 meters off the given coordinates? Or that the contents were wet and moldy? Or that there were a bunch of tough looking thugs staring and following me when I approached the cache site?

4.8k · December 21, 2003

So I should lie about I hurt my leg when I tripped near the cache? Or that someone had dumped a month worth of their household garbage right on the cache? Or that I saw an exhibitionist on the way to the cache site? Or that the cache was 150 meters off the given coordinates? Or that the contents were wet and moldy? Or that there were a bunch of tough looking thugs staring and following me when I approached the cache site?

Outside of the exhibitionist, I think I have included all of those in cache logs at one time or another. In some cases, such as getting hurt, or banging up my car, they were not even negative coments and just part of the experience. In others, they were meant to notify the owner (e.g. moldy cache), and in yet others to tell others (e.g. watch for creepy guys or bring a trash bag to CITO).

These types of logs are helpful or tell part of the story of the cacher's experience.

2.6k · December 21, 2003

My point exactly, carleenp. They can be read as negative, but nevertheless they are informative and above all, part of the cache history. Not everyone's going to like your cache. That's life.

3.8k · December 21, 2003

Just say NO to deleting logs.

4.5k · December 21, 2003

The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error. ~John Stuart Mill, On Liberty, 1859

Scheesch! I guess Mills is right, but we are talking about geocaching here!

December 21, 2003

I have deleted logs that gave spoilers and ask them to re-log it without them, and one cacher that called me a thief on his cache page and still deleting him until he tells me he is sorry. dream on, he is as stubborn as me

…………………JOE

Grow up people.

9.4k · December 21, 2003

... Or that I saw an exhibitionist on the way to the cache site?

That exhibitionist might have been NudeCacher. You should have flashed the Geocaching sign at him while he was flashing you

1.3k · December 21, 2003

Heh, that did not go over well.

No, I do not expect people to lie about their experiences. "Bad" is a matter of opinion. In some people's opinion, multis are bad compared to single stage caches. For instance "Found the cache. I would have liked it except it was a multi. Multi's suck." That's an example of a negative log. Many of us hold the opinion that if you don't like a particular type of cache, you shouldn't search for it. I believe that can apply to any individual cache of any type. If the area is so bad that you stop your search, then go ahead and log a DNF stating your reasons, by all means. But remember, this is a game. If you are made so uncomfortable by the search that you feel the need to bash someone for placing a cache that is not to your liking, the fact that you continued to subject yourself to the very things you complain of just to play a game does not strike me as being intelligent.

If the cache is worth finding, it can't have been all that bad.

If something happens to you on the hunt, like insect bites, broken bones, sprains, etc. Those are not the hider's fault. Many of the examples of reasons to put criticism in logs are legitimate, because they are examples of poor maintenance and/or caches that should not even have been approved. In that case, because the moldy piece of garbage you followed the coords to doesn't meet the guidelines, it isn't a cache anyway.

There's a difference between informing a cache owner of a maintenance issue they might need to address, and saying "the cache stinks, it was too quick and easy." If you feel the need to say that, go ahead. It would make me pretty angry to see a log like that on one of my caches. I probably wouldn't delete it, just leave it there for all of the other finders to gawk at and think, "Jeez, what a jerk."

As for complete honesty, I'd better not.

December 21, 2003

Sometimes you don't know a cache is lame, or potentially dangerous until the last moment. I would like to read about bad caches in the logs so I can avoid them. Lame caches and dangerous locations are a waste of time.

Before I stir up the "No cache is a waste of time" folks, consider that all caches are not created equal. Some caches are really poorly chosen places, like 50 feet from a road in a bamboo thicket with 2 hobo encampments nearby. I was not aware of the situation until I actually got near the cache. You bet my log reflected what I saw.

I wasn't rude, but future finders should know the facts. Tell it like it is!

1.4k · December 21, 2003

This is my DNF log for a cache my wife and I hunted.

LOG

I got to the area then I left. I won't be back to look again.

/LOG

The area was an obvious hangout for drug users. There were used needles and a lot of broken glass there. I felt this was the best way to handle the log.

I think that log politely let me feelings be known. I know of at least two cahers that didn't hunt this cache after reading that log.

Edited December 21, 2003 by Harrald

2k · December 21, 2003

An obvious hangout for druggies? I think I'd put that in my log. What's impolite about saying there's a bunch of high losers in the cache area?

3k · December 21, 2003

I would think not everything that appears in a cache log amounts to "opinion," or is in any way "subjective." A log consisting of information a cache owner considers "subjective negative opinion" could very well be both objective and absolutely factual. It could very well be that the log wasn't even remotely negative; that appraisal was merely the cache owner's opinion.

20.7k · December 21, 2003

This is my DNF log for a cache my wife and I hunted.

LOG

I got to the area then I left. I won't be back to look again.

/LOG

I think your log would have been totally appropriate if your log was:

The area was an obvious hangout for drug users. There were used needles and a lot of broken glass there. We will not return.

Certainly, this info would be useful to cachers considering this one in the future.

Edited December 21, 2003 by sbell111

4.8k · December 22, 2003

If something happens to you on the hunt, like insect bites, broken bones, sprains, etc. Those are not the hider's fault. Many of the examples of reasons to put criticism in logs are legitimate, because they are examples of poor maintenance and/or caches that should not even have been approved. In that case, because the moldy piece of garbage you followed the coords to doesn't meet the guidelines, it isn't a cache anyway.

Are you saying that injuries should not be in logs? Or just that they should not be read by the owner as a negative? I have included injuries and difficulties in several logs, but they were not written to be negative (anything but). Instead, they were part of the experience/story. This was one where I followed directions poorly, banged up my car and ended up loving the experience. And this was another on the same day and the injuries were part of the story. If I remember right, my friend bashed her finger at yet another cache that day and I may have put that in the log there too. We got really banged up that day and loved every minute of it! Of course, I would never try to word an injury to sound negative. But I suppose if I got injured because of something dangerous about the placement, I might note that people should be careful or something.

Edited December 22, 2003 by carleenp

2.3k · December 22, 2003

If something happens to you on the hunt, like insect bites, broken bones, sprains, etc. Those are not the hider's fault. Many of the examples of reasons to put criticism in logs are legitimate, because they are examples of poor maintenance and/or caches that should not even have been approved. In that case, because the moldy piece of garbage you followed the coords to doesn't meet the guidelines, it isn't a cache anyway.

Are you saying that injuries should not be in logs? Or just that they should not be read by the owner as a negative? I have included injuries and difficulties in several logs, but they were not written to be negative (anything but). Instead, they were part of the experience/story. This was one where I followed directions poorly, banged up my car and ended up loving the experience. And this was another on the same day and the injuries were part of the story. Of course, I would never try to word an injury to sound negative. But I suppose if I got injured because of something dangerous about the placement, I might note that people should be careful or something.

I've had several logs where I've logged, Took ......., left blood on every prickly bush or fed a few hundred mosquitos for the month.

When I review other people's logs and see similar things, it helps me prepare better for what I need to do for the hunt!

1.3k · December 22, 2003

Are you saying that injuries should not be in logs?

Certainly not. Injuries are part of the experience and should not be seen as criticism, rather an account of what happened.

Or just that they should not be read by the owner as a negative?

Exactly.

The "negative" logs I was referring to are the ones that complain about asthetics. I should have been more clear. So what if the cache isn't the most fantastic thing we have ever seen. It's still a reason to get outside and do something fun. I just don't see the need for people to complete a cache hunt that they thought was not fun enough, then complain about it. If you're not having fun, then stop and log a DNF. If you do find it, be happy someone placed a cache for you to find. The first cache I ever found wasn't anything special compared to some of the fantastic hides I've seen, but at the time it was awesome. Literally the best cache I'd ever found. So before we go doot on someone's cache in a log, we should think about whether what we write is informative and constructive, or just plain mean.

Subjective Opinions

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