The Other Moderators

24.7k · December 18, 2003

Have you ever noticed that there are approvers and moderators who go unsung? You never hear from them. Only a few moderators do all the work, hog all the glory, cause all the trouble, or do so well they never need a hand. All depending on your point of view.

Slashdot has a moderator policy in that any member who meets criteria (posting too much rules you out by the way) will at times log in and find themselves moderating. The system actually rewards active lurkers. They have so many moderation points they can spend and when they are gone or their time is up so is their moderating stint. But they go back in the pool for future selection.

Now we know GC.com won't go so far as to let members moderate. But there are people with the power who you dont' hear from. So why not modify the slashdot system. Each moderator only gets so many points. They edit a post there goes a point. They warn a person there goes 2 points. They ban someone and their stint is up and the next moderator gets their turn.

Truely prolific moderators like Keystone and CO Admin would burn out their points in one heated debate. But then we would hear from the hidden moderators who will bring their own style to the job. We may just find one who does the same job but who has a different take on the moderation gig. An angle on the job that we like.

Edited December 18, 2003 by Renegade Knight

1.3k · December 18, 2003

A take we like

What's this "we" business? Are you saying that "we" (including me) don't like what they're doing? Personally, I like the moderators. If you or some people you know have a problem, fine, but please don't speak for everyone else.

9.4k · December 18, 2003

Only a few moderators do all the work, hog all the glory, cause all the trouble, or do so well they never need a hand.

You wouldn't be speaking of anyone in particular, would you? :lol:

Slashdot has a moderator policy in that any member who meets criteria (posting too much rules you out by the way) will at times log in and find themselves moderating.

Whew, glad I'm out...

December 18, 2003

... a moderator policy in that any member who meets criteria (posting too much rules you out by the way) will at times log in and find themselves moderating.

Would those with an average of 6.3+ posts per day qualify?

December 18, 2003

That seemed like a serious (and reasonable) suggestion to me. I like the concept of randomly selected moderators. It's like that old saying about... was it politicians? -- "anyone who wants the job should be disqualified."

But, since that idea would probably take coding changes to implement, I'd rather have Jeremy working on other site enhancements instead. The moderators are doing ok overall.

-BeachBuddies

24.7k · December 18, 2003

A take we like

What's this "we" business? Are you saying that "we" (including me) don't like what they're doing? Personally, I like the moderators. If you or some people you know have a problem, fine, but please don't speak for everyone else.

Since you just might like what another moderator does even if it is different from what you are used to, because that is true "we" includes you. It was used in that generic sence.

However I do see your point in how it reads. Which wasn't what I was trying to get at. "A take we like" means that we like the new moderators style, one we haven't yet seen. I will modify the orignal post to reflect that.

Thanks

December 18, 2003

Forum Wars V without the title. Why the obsession?

December 18, 2003

Forum Wars V without the title. Why the obsession?

I disagree with that interpretation of RK's suggestion. Slashdot is a reasonable model; why not consider one of their interesting approaches? (Even though I happen to think GC resources could be better spent.) If it was an easy change, I think it should be considered. There was nothing in RK's post that was inflammatory.

December 18, 2003

Forum Wars V without the title. Why the obsession?

Cleaver perception!

I'm too am getting tired of this.

Salvelinus

9.4k · December 18, 2003

(Even though I happen to think GC resources could be better spent.)

Bingo.

For Slashdot that is the site. So they spend their focus on creative solutions for difficult users.

Write the forum software and I'll have a look.

24.7k · December 18, 2003

Forum Wars V without the title. Why the obsession?

Good observation. I didn't realize it until halfway into the post. Still it's all about feedback. Ideas are good, or not and only feedback refines them gives them wings or tears them apart.

If you are afraid to put them out there because people like Salvelinus will make posts that are derogatory and don't even take the time to say "the idea sucks and here is why" then you might as well pack it in and go home.

Jeremy makes a very valid point with the fact that the forum software just isn't built to allow such a thing. It could be customized or they could create it from scratch and that would divert resources. Even so an idea has merit or not even if implementing an idea with merit is just a pipe dream.

3.8k · December 18, 2003

It is, indeed, an interesting approach to moderating,

but I'd miss the intelluctual and entertaing comments

of those prolific moderators of which you speak. :lol:

December 18, 2003

Deragortory?

Did you take my little comment personally? I certainly did not intend it so.

If you must know...The idea does suck because nobody has demonstrated a real need for what you propose...other than pushing their own personal agendas...again!

IMO, of course.

If you want any more elaboration than what I offered?...My responses MAY become deragortory and somewhat personal.

These forums are no place for that.

Regards,

Salvelinus

6.5k · December 18, 2003

Truely prolific moderators like Keystone and CO Admin would burn out their points in one heated debate. But then we would hear from the hidden moderators who will bring their own style to the job. We may just find one who does the same job but who has a different take on the moderation gig....

Interesting idea, but how fast would the Mods get cycled back in? It seems like you could burn off the whole current Mod pool in a couple 'broiler threads'. Leaving either an un-controled thread, or the same up to bat right away.

(You can't see whats on the other channel if someones' always hitting the remote :lol: , which is the point right?? )

6.5k · December 18, 2003

Deragortory?

Did you take my little comment personally? I certainly did not intend it so.

If you must know...The idea does suck because nobody has demonstrated a real need for what you propose...other than pushing their own personal agendas...again!

IMO, of course.

If you want any more elaboration than what I offered?...My responses MAY become deragortory and somewhat personal.

These forums are no place for that.

Regards,

Salvelinus

Seems like it.... :lol:

December 18, 2003

So when your buddy, who holds the same opinions as you about how you may not care for this website or its guidelines, gets a stint as moderator, email you to start up an imflammatory thread, knowing that he won't take any actions against you as a moderator for stirring up the pot? Somehow I don't think that would work on this type of site. :lol:

edit(typo)

Edited December 18, 2003 by Navdog

3.5k · December 18, 2003

NavDog stole my thunder regarding this thread.

Bravo, Mr. Dog! :lol: Well met!

7.2k · December 18, 2003

"Be careful what you wish for..."

We discussed the forums briefly at the TN event cache that I was at this weekend. I see more and more people who are tired of the same few people posting the same inflammatory stuff. RK, I don't see this as inflammatory but rather as just an extended discussion based on other discussions within these forums.

This topic is immediately identified as "Forum Wars V" by a forum poster, though. A new moderator who rotates in might just have stopped this topic in its tracks. I would venture to say that there are far more people that are tired of this and would just close the topic since it is just some skewed restructuring of complaints that have been expressed before. The established moderators will let it go though, even though it is a vague rehash of previous discussions.

Slashdot may very well let the "inmates run the asylum". I don't think that is the best thing. I've never looked at their forums until now so I don't know what the discussions encompass. It seems to be a free-for-all. One thing I notice right away is this:

"The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way."

These are geocaching discussions and the moderators are challenged to keep them within the guidelines. The site wants it strictly about geocaching. It is far from a free-for-all as you well know since the moderators are charged with keeping these discussion about geocaching only. Since a lurker may or may not realize that, they most likely would not apply the guidelines for these forums. I don't see any guidelines for the slashdot area so moderators there don't have a code to follow. They do here, whether you like the code or not. Since there is a code to follow here we will enforce it. I think the moderators you have cited have done an outstanding job following the code set forth for these forums. The time I can devote is sporatic, but I feel exactly the same way they do regarding the code that we have been asked to follow. I agree with it.

If you want a free-for-all and a chance to be a moderator if the lottery pulls your number then slashdot may be your place. If you want to discuss geocaching within a specific code of conduct for these forums, well, you've come to the right place.

(EDIT: changed "sited" to "cited")

Edited December 18, 2003 by mtn-man

December 18, 2003

Well said mtn-man.

Tennessee Geocacher

2.3k · December 18, 2003

Click HERE.

December 18, 2003

Man O Man I liked the way this thread started out “Have you ever noticed” and yes a lot of us have noticed.

All the great ideas brought to us all , by six or seven posters, and the ideas are so wonderful.

Have always wondered why they don’t go somewhere ( with their great Ideas ) and start there on site scene they think so much is wrong with this one.

Why don’t they take them and leave, the great majority here likes this site quite a lot and would enjoy it much better without all the fanatics ideas that they bring to us.

See I was nice this time and did not call out any names, I have learned to play by the rules of this site and appreciate what we have here…………………JOE

24.7k · December 18, 2003

This thread has taken an interesting turn.

The other day I heard from someone in the GC.com circle and it was a pleasant exchange. Until then I didn't know they had anything to do with GC nor was I really aware of their presence. Later they posted in a thread to diffuse a situation and did an excellent job of it.

Becaues of that I had the idea about rotating mods so we see more of the rest of the people behind the site. I've already said I proposed the idea to get feedback. Now you know my hidden agenda.

Navadog, good point. The solution might be to have several mods rotating?

Welch, another good point, and with some of the threads I'm not sure any number of mods could rotate in fast enough.

2.3k · December 18, 2003

Click HERE.

Note: above was aimed at no one in particular, but everyone in general.

I for one like these recent threads by RK (and a couple by Criminal). They have started out with seemingly well thought out and stated topics and/or opinions. Some of the replies to them have been less so. I do not think that rotating admins would be good here for the reasons stated by others and also because if they are rotated in and out they may not have a good perspective if they only know the history of a particular situation only sporadically. That said it might be a good idea to cycle new admins in just to give the current ones a break, maybe it would come down to a question of frequency.

1.3k · December 18, 2003

A few notes to clairify.

Slashdot doesn't really let the inmates run the asylum. Actually a slashdot moderator as being discussed doesn't do anything other than add data.

The moderator he's talking about cannot close a thread, cannot warn a person, cannot even post in a thread they're moderating (so they can't explain their actions). What they can do is add a peice of data to a post and they can do this a whopping 5 times (once each to 5 difference posts).

That peice of data is a one word description of thier opinion of the post. Here, likely canidates would be : "interesting", "informative", "flame", "whining", "funny", "off topic".

Ok. so now your post has a little bunch of opinions attached to it. What good does this do?

Well, you can make certain opinions worth more than others. Let's pretend all posts have a score of zero and we're going to add a point for interesting, informative, and funny and subtract a point for all others. So You can say you only want to see those posts that are a 1 or higher, in short, you only want to read the stuff someone else has said is worth reading.

On the other hand, you could make "flame", "whining", "funny", "off topic" all +1 and ignore those people who take this sport too seriously. Oh wait. You may want to make whining -1 also. It depends on if you laugh at them or not.

That's it. It's a configurable rating system on posts. It's a public version of consumer reports rating what people say. That's it. A slashdot moderator does NOTHING other than add data anyone with two and a half brain cells can ignore and anyone with more than that can use any way they want.

If geocaching had a need for such a thing it would probably be in a cache rating system more than a post rating system but I have my doubts about the maturity level being high enough for me to trust the data.

The code is open source. Anyone who wants to build a competing forum, feel free. But I'm not seeing where this forum is broken, at least on the admin end.

Edited December 18, 2003 by bons

3.9k · December 18, 2003

It is an interesting concept. Wouldn't work...but still interesting. I'd rather keep the Moderators we have rather than have to deal with new ones everyday. Take me for example. I wouldn't make a good mod, I'm too opinionated. If I were a mod there are certain people that would waste their time logging in, because everytime they opened their mouth I would shut it. Regardless of what they had to say.

Over time we have gotten to know our Moderators and what they expect from us. They in turn have learned us. If you look back you'll see that the invaluable experience they have gained has turn these forums into a better place. When they first started it was a rocky road. As time has gone by we have adapted to each other to make this a more pleasent and positve experience.

El Diablo

December 18, 2003

Have you ever noticed that there are approvers and moderators who go unsung? You never hear from them. Only a few moderators do all the work, hog all the glory, cause all the trouble, or do so well they never need a hand. All depending on your point of view.

Slashdot has a moderator policy in that any member who meets criteria (posting too much rules you out by the way) will at times log in and find themselves moderating. The system actually rewards active lurkers. They have so many moderation points they can spend and when they are gone or their time is up so is their moderating stint. But they go back in the pool for future selection.

Now we know GC.com won't go so far as to let members moderate. But there are people with the power who you dont' hear from. So why not modify the slashdot system. Each moderator only gets so many points. They edit a post there goes a point. They warn a person there goes 2 points. They ban someone and their stint is up and the next moderator gets their turn.

Truely prolific moderators like Keystone and CO Admin would burn out their points in one heated debate. But then we would hear from the hidden moderators who will bring their own style to the job. We may just find one who does the same job but who has a different take on the moderation gig. An angle on the job that we like.

In principle, I think this is a good idea, but suspect that from a practical standpoint it might not work. No doubt the reason that moderators like Keystone Approver and others are highly visible is that they have the time to do it.....others may not. Having experience with various organizations with volunteers, this is the norm (that's norm, not NORM !!).

December 18, 2003

...other than pushing their own personal agendas...

And the current mods don't push their own personal agendas?

Of course they do. We all have personal agendas and that is what we bring to the table. It is what makes us individuals. So what?

The problem is when you don't like the other person's personal agenda. As long as the person in charge has an agenda you can agree or deal with it is OK. But if someone comes along with a different idea or agenda then they are just making trouble for all of the right thinking people.

38.2k · December 18, 2003

You can be a moderator. Post a statement and as soon as someone disagrees, you rebut their post and close the topic. Cool, everyone can be a moderator!

Edited December 18, 2003 by briansnat

21.9k · December 18, 2003

Thoughts from a so-called "prolific moderator":

I didn't ask to be a cache reviewer, I got asked. (This was easy, I had no idea what I was in for and I said yes right away.) I didn't ask to be a forum moderator, I fought tooth and nail and got strongarmed. (The fact that I ultimately said yes is yet another indication of the same poor judgment and codependent behavior that led to a messy divorce.) The point being, I don't have an agenda to push, I am just doing the job Groundspeak asked me to do, according to the published Forum Guidelines. It sure ain't done for glory. Anyone who doubts this, I will forward a select sampling of my hate mail.

No, I don't have time for this job. I work full-time and I have a home and family to look after. I continue doing the job out of dedication to Groundspeak and also to the forum community. I sure wouldn't mind rotating out for a break. Three months in the hot seat, then three months in a padded cell to recover from it. It is a time-consuming job. It stole away my Thanksgiving, and I am determined not to let it steal my Christmas.

But be careful what you ask for. Lose Professor Utonium or Purple Pony, and you may wind up with a Secret Squirrel with a big chip on his shoulder and an index finger duct-taped to the "DELETE" key.

38.2k · December 18, 2003

It stole away my Thanksgiving, and I am determined not to let it steal my Christmas.

There's our chance everone. Christmas day, flame away and post off topic until your fingers fall off :lol: .

...and you may wind up with a Secret Squirrel with a big chip on his shoulder and an index finger duct-taped to the "DELETE" key.

Please no, not that! Anybody but NJ Admin! We love you Keystone, you're the greatest moderator on the planet.

Edited December 18, 2003 by briansnat

December 18, 2003

As I mentioned in one of my last posts...................."the wheel on the bus goes round and round, round and round, round and round.................(you know the rest)". Same few people, different day.

To stay on topic, I like it (forums and moderators) just the way it is now except for the same ole 8-10 folks that keep stirring the pot. I agree with JoGPS 100% on his above thread.

Happy cachin' all!!! :lol:

Edited December 18, 2003 by The Cache Couple

December 18, 2003

Ok I think I'll chime in for the first time on this whole argument about admins and mods.

Just for a little back ground I help run a site ( I am an Admin ) that sees quite a bit more traffic than gc.com does. When we started out it was easy to read most of the new post, catch things that were not within the post guidelines ( pg-13, swear filter curmvention, flames ). We are now to a point that we have 1000-1500 post a day Mon-Thur and 2000-3000 Fri Sat and Sunday. So I have a good idea what it takes to keep things in some kind of order.

First up is these are a private fourm that you aggreed to follow the rules and guidelines when you signed up.

There to be honest is no freadom of speach as these are private fourms and the owner can set up what ever rules they would like to have in place.

Some users just can't seem to ever get along with the people that are tasked with keeping things in order. There is alway someone trying to buck the system or see how far they can push the mods and admins on issues without "technically" breaking the rules.

Post editing has to happen in some cases, Thread deletes in my opinion should never happen, they should be moved for archival reasons and so that the problem can be seen and quoted at a later date.

Topic locks, these happen a but more here than I have honestly seen any where else. Some times its honestly needed some times it a bit heavy handed. Every mod has a "style". Some people rub others the wrong way. Its life, to some extent you need to suck it up and grow up and try to act like an adult, not a 12 year old kid hidding behind a key board causing trouble for no other reason than your board.

I am quite proud of the people I have helping me run my forum. There are 8 key mods 3 admins and 2 or 3 guys that have the power and use it on very rare occasions. Most of our users now are self moderating, you will get a core group that has been around a while and they will help out users, point people to help threads and alert mods when there is a problem. They are also a good source for freash ideas to some old problems.

Sooner or later people will start to catch on to who are the people throwing chum into the water to stip up people, and they will be ignored as the trolls they are. BUT people have to be able to see them for what they are, and by alway editing, locking and deleteing threads you lose some of that ability to learn who the idiots really are. Other people need to stop also being so knee jerk reactionary about things. You don't have to post to every thread or make a comment about everything thats going on, by alway having to have the last say you are feeding the trolls.

So any way there is a .05 worth on the forums and mods.

-Robert

Edited December 19, 2003 by RobAGD

5.3k · December 18, 2003

It sure ain't done for glory. Anyone who doubts this, I will forward a select sampling of my hate mail.

I bet that would be some fun reading! :lol:

21.9k · December 18, 2003

It sure ain't done for glory. Anyone who doubts this, I will forward a select sampling of my hate mail.

I bet that would be some fun reading!

Yes, it would. I get lots of critical e-mails that comment on my find count, for example. "How could somebody with zero hides or finds presume to pass judgment on my fine cache next to the railroad tracks?" Answer: "Easy. I use a separate account for my volunteer work. Under my player account I have 500 more finds and 15 more hides than you do." Response: Silence.

But I was only kidding, of course. I would not post an e-mail or private message from a geocacher into the forums. Some recipients of my messages are not shy about doing that, however, and in those cases the reviewer or moderator in question ought to be able to post other correspondence needed in order to provide both sides of the story.

1.8k · December 18, 2003

I see more and more people who are tired of the same few people posting the same inflammatory stuff.

I think it would be fun to name these scally-wags. Anyone care to fire the first shot? :lol:

4.8k · December 18, 2003

No, I don't have time for this job. I work full-time and I have a home and family to look after. I continue doing the job out of dedication to Groundspeak and also to the forum community. I sure wouldn't mind rotating out for a break. Three months in the hot seat, then three months in a padded cell to recover from it. It is a time-consuming job. It stole away my Thanksgiving, and I am determined not to let it steal my Christmas.

OK people, do you think you could at least be kind to the moderators on Christmas? Keystone, I hope Groundspeak gets you that pony they promised you! :lol:

Also, this is an interesting take on RN's initial comments. Perhaps moderators should be rotated some not only to allow the forum posters to see more about how various moderators think, but to give the moderators themselves a break. It sounds like a job with a high burn-out factor to me.

Edited December 18, 2003 by carleenp

21.9k · December 18, 2003

I would regard a bunch of posts saying that "so-and-so is a troublemaker and ought to be banned from the forums" as a personal attack. The same rules apply to everyone.

2.1k · December 18, 2003

It is an interesting concept. Wouldn't work...but still interesting.

Those who claim that this will not work have obviously never interacted with slashcoded forums before. I'm not picking on diablo or anyone, but I just wanted to point out that slashcoded forums have been around for years and years and function just fine. The concept may be foreign but I think bons did a pretty good job of summarizing it. There are always a certain number of moderating points available. If you use up all of your's then someone else is allotted their 5 points. If they are unused, they are expired in 2-3 days time so that the forums never go wholly unmoderated. It is amazing how well the slashcode system allows for topics to be read at a level where offtopic nonsense is subdued through negative moderation and the highlights of an argument can be skimmed if desired.

I don't have the time or energy to find my posts before about bringing a slashcoded forum to life here but it would be beneficial to the current mods (who lost time on Thanksgiving to play with the burst of activity here) and it would be beneficial to everyone else in being able to read at our own customized comfort levels in the discussions.

Of course, changing this would be giving control of certain elements of this website to the people who create the content. This would be in juxtaposition of about 95% of the decisions made for this website.

December 18, 2003

It stole away my Thanksgiving, and I am determined not to let it steal my Christmas.

I know I am as critical of you mods and TPTB as anyone.

If this is really an issue then the hell with it and close the forums for the day. It is not like anybody is going to die. I rarely agree with how you folks go about your job here but I don't see a problem with you all having a day off.

Even QVC stops selling on Christmas. I think the sun will still come up.

1.8k · December 18, 2003

I would regard a bunch of posts saying that "so-and-so is a troublemaker and ought to be banned from the forums" as a personal attack. The same rules apply to everyone.

Okay. :lol: Just looking to have a little 'witch burning' fun. It would be nice to give these select few posters that continually dribble the same, err, well, dribble a chance to read what most everyone thinks about them. I know turn abouts fair play (hope I got that phrase right) but my skin is as thick as a Buffalo, NY snowfall. I know you want 'peace and tranquility' hehehehe, good luck.

3.9k · December 18, 2003

It is an interesting concept. Wouldn't work...but still interesting.

Those who claim that this will not work have obviously never interacted with slashcoded forums before. I'm not picking on diablo or anyone,

I appreciate that! I'm a sensitve person and couldn't take being picked on. :lol:

After reading this thread I've been thinking that maybe there should be relief pichers for the regular Moderators to give them a break. However I think they should be handpicked not chosen at random. I would hate to see the ones we have now get burned out and leave.

El Diablo

2.3k · December 18, 2003

Answer: "Easy. I use a separate account for my volunteer work. Under my player account I have 500 more finds and 15 more hides than you do."

So you are saying you are a sock-puppet?? I never would have guessed! :lol:

6.5k · December 18, 2003

I would regard a bunch of posts saying that "so-and-so is a troublemaker and ought to be banned from the forums" as a personal attack. The same rules apply to everyone.

Does this mean you wouldn't let me do thread asking who the 8/10(some say 15) people that keep stiring the post are? :lol:

7.2k · December 18, 2003

It is a time-consuming job. It stole away my Thanksgiving, and I am determined not to let it steal my Christmas.

KA did the hard work on Thanksgiving, but I will be here on Christmas Day. With people getting GPSR's for Christmas, there would most likely be a few new folks here looking around. I do my family get-together on Christmas Eve and just sit at home on Christmas Day or go out for a walk with the dog. I don't have kids so Christmas is a bit different for me than for those who have kids. Hopefully we can all take a day off from controvercial posts that day and we can just all kick back and relax.

Yeah, I know... dream on! :lol:

Edited December 18, 2003 by mtn-man

3.8k · December 18, 2003

RE: Moderator Burn-Out.

Mods are real people, even Keystone. I think everyone should have time off occassionally, even non-mod-prolific-posters.

Maybe it's not such a bad idea to simply close the forums one day each week.

Then we could go caching, or read Atlas Shrugged, or walk the dog.

I can't believe I just said that! :lol:

December 18, 2003

Wow! This is a forum war! It's the disgruntled forum posters versus the prolific admins! I just got my ticket for front row and can't wait for the big fight! I like the forum posters over the admins because there are just too many of them.

The above message makes no sense!

1.8k · December 18, 2003

Does this mean you wouldn't let me do thread asking who the 8/10(some say 15) people that keep stiring the post are?

You could start a thread asking who has a 'warning percentage'. Chance are pretty good if someone has been warned or has a warning % then they have 'stirred the pot' from time to time.

21.9k · December 18, 2003

Wow! This is a forum war! It's the disgruntled forum posters versus the prolific admins! I just got my ticket for front row and can't wait for the big fight! I like the forum posters over the admins because there are just too many of them.

The above message makes no sense!

I don't think this is a forum war at all, which is why I'm glad it is not titled as such. A few frequent critics of forum and website policies, like Renegade Knight, ju66l3r and Grizzly John, are offering constructive suggestions and observations. I was especially interested in reading RobAGD's perspective as a moderator for an even busier forum. There's been zero violations of the Forum Guidelines and nothing to moderate. True "forum wars" are where the Forum Guidelines are violated, and the thread deteriorates into personal attacks.

If the forums were self-moderating, I wouldn't be so prolific of a forum poster. I'd love nothing more than to limit my posts to helpful responses to newbie questions in "Getting Started," questions about how to do something on the website or get a cache approved, etc.

2.3k · December 18, 2003

For record, there are 5 mods in this forum. Anytime one of us feels like we need a break. we notify the other and take a day or 2 or 5 off. We take care of our own and cover for each other as needed.

Personaly I could not have asked for a better group of people to work with in this forum.

9.4k · December 18, 2003

With people getting GPSR's for Christmas, there would most likely be a few new folks here looking around

Hopefully I will be getting a new GPSr as my Etrex Venture is falling apart.

Wow! This is a forum war! <snip>

Welcome back Radman! I haven't seen you here for a while.

Personaly I could not have asked for a better group of people to work with in this forum.

You could have asked for me :lol:

The Other Moderators

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