Personal Privacy And Security

[Spike's Mum and Dad]

We are quite new to geocaching and have chosen to preserve our identity. There are, however, a number of geochachers who do not respect this right to privacy at all. Yesterday we were alerted to a gps forum called gps.org.nz where we were the subject of a discussion forum. This discussion is in the public domain and is administered by someone called rediguana who has since removed the discussion thread from the forum.

The geocachers who chose to discuss us in public were: Bear_Left, BigNick, Sallies, tgsnoopy, and Swanny. We have no hesitation in naming them as they appear to be of a mind that all actions they and others take should be in the public domain.

These people chose to find out as much personal information as they could and then post it on the bulletin board with scant or no regard for us. Some of the people named above represent geocaching.com in this part of the world and we do not consider their actions (or lack of action) to be in the interests of fellow geocachers or other people.

We were alerted to the website by someone calling himself da_snoop, we don't know whether this is the same person as tgsnoopy or not, but thank him for his integrity by alerting us, the others showed no integrity at all.

We would like to make others aware of the dangers of releasing any information at all to any people that they do not know. A seemingly innocent email or geocache log entry can be used in all kinds of ways and some people will use personal information for their own ends.

[+briansnat]

And who exactly are " rediguana", "da snoop", "tgsnoopy", "Bear_Left", "BigNick", "Sallies", "tgsnoopy", and "Swanny"?

 

And who the heck is "Spike", nevertheless his/or her "Mum and Dad"?

 

These are all made up names that people hide behind, so please explain the "privacy issues".

Edited December 17, 2003 by briansnat

[+carleenp]

I'm lacking info to know what to say for sure. From a thread on that site with some apologies in it and a person writing there that they were concerned that speculation caused a brilliant cacher (referring to you I assume) to quit, all I can surmise is that something happened with a cache that caused a bunch of speculation about who you were? Certainly it is rude to go try to dig up a bunch of personal info about a person and post it publicly. I think some people don't think about manners much on that stuff. But it also sounds like they didn't realize it would offend you so much and are sorry about it.

[+RobertM]

E-mail Groundspeak.com (through the link on the website) with your issues directly. The forums are not the place to address these issues.

 

RobertM

Geo 105, 91

[+rooboy]

While I feel for your situation and am all for personal privacy, unfortunately in the information age we have very little privacy. You would be surprised at how much of an electronic trail you leave behind in your day-to-day life. And most frightening, this trail is impossible to delete.

 

So who believes the governments of the world when they say, if you are not a criminal, you have nothing to worry about us (the government(s)) knowing everything about you.

 

A good book that deals with this topic is:

Database Nation : The Death of Privacy in the 21st Century

by Simson Garfinkel

ISBN: 0596001053

 

Ciao

RooBoy

[+Sparky-Watts]

By example, explain what personal info they were posting? Real name, address, phone number, driver's license number? Credit card info?

[+nincehelser]

While I feel for your situation and am all for personal privacy, unfortunately in the information age we have very little privacy. You would be surprised at how much of an electronic trail you leave behind in your day-to-day life. And most frightening, this trail is impossible to delete.

Amen to that. About the only way to maintain anonymity in this day is to try to avoid the Internet entirely...and deal strictly in cash...even then it often doesn't work. I personally gave up on the concept years ago.

 

Intentionally posting personal information about someone without their consent is totally uncool, though. Depending on what and where it was posted, in some places it is considered a crime.

 

George

[da_snoop]

Ok, Time for a comment I feel. da_snoop and tgsnoopy are the same person, me. da_snoop is my Groundspeak volunteer cache reviewer account, tgsnoopy my personal account. The other geocacher who was until very recently also a Groundspeak volunteer approver was rediguana, his Groundspeak reviewers account nzmoderator1 was closed within the last two weeks, before this incident.

 

New Zealand is a small country and the bunch of geocachers is quite close knit near our geocaching capital of Christchurch. A small number of geocachers where fascinated by a new geocacher whom was impressing all of us with the speed they were able to find geocaches.

 

One of the local geocachers down near our Geocaching Capital was curious as to who the new geocachers were, he started a topic asking if anyone knew.

 

The second post on the topic, was from our societies president no less. He made a comment revealing the two first names the new geocachers had signed the log of one of the caches with.

 

The third post was from a highly thought of geocaching couple, who posted portions of two e-mails they had received from the new geocacher, this revealed some personal information and also gave an impression they were intending to reveal their identity to a geocacher they knew after they had reached a certain number of finds.

 

The fourth post, was from myself, using my personal account (tgsnoopy), I revealed no details of the new geocachers (I do not know who they are!). I do not have the ability to identify them, but based on the descriptions the new geocachers gave in the e-mails, provided in the third post, I suggested another geocacher be contacted as I thought he might be able to identify them.

 

At no stage did I obtain, nor can I obtain information of a private nature about any geocacher from the geocaching website. All I can do, is the same as any member of geocaching.com, e-mail via the geocaching website, and supply my return e-mail address that way. It is up to the person receiving the e-mail to reply directly, thus revealing their personal e-mail address, or via geocaching.com keeping their identity secure.

 

I sent the e-mail to the new geocachers via geocaching.com using my Groundspeak cache reviewer account, da_snoop. That e-mail pointed out the forum topic, and invited them to perhaps tease the geocachers attempting to identify them (It hadn't occurred to me that we were breaching their privacy).

 

A fifth post to the topic occurred at this stage, it was by an ex kiwi geocacher currently living overseas was of a light nature and contained no personal information.

 

A sixth post occurred, it was very brief, from a geocacher with a similar name, it pointed out he was no relation, and contained no personal information.

 

A seventh post occurred, it was from the person who originated the topic, he had identified more possible but unconfirmed information about the new geocachers, the post contained a location and Christian name of a possible son, and two hobbies they possibly participate in.

 

An eight post occurred, it included a link to the white pages (telephone directory), it had no further personal information, but the implication you could turn up at the door. it was from the same cacher as whom made the fifth post.

 

A ninth post occurred, from the topic originator. It stated he would never stoop to such turning up unannounced at their door, and that their phone number wasn't listed. (at no point was their surname or address revealed).

 

A tenth post occurred, same poster as the fifth and eighth posts. I'll quote this one "It's all part of the mystery I guess. Thinking more about it after talking to someone else, I say let them remain anonymous if they want to. It seems that it is how they have chosen to play the game."

 

An Eleventh post occurred, same poster as the second. I'll also quote this one: "I'll agree, but it is still fun to speculate. They certainly have been very busy over the first month - I am looking forward to seeing a cache placed by them (actually, maybe I am not, with 6 hour bike trips that they do for 'fun' they might end up placing a cache somewhere really nasty... top of Mount Cook maybe )".

 

A twelve post occurred, same poster as the second and eleventh posts. I'll quote this one as well: "Shhhhh.... our newest member is going to think we are freaks....".

 

At this point the new geocachers choose to reply via geocaching.com keeping their e-mail address & identity secure. Essentially I was thanked for providing the link to the topic, then this part: "We consider our privacy has been breached and now do not want to take part in geocaching ever again. I will tell as many people as I can to be very very careful when they log on to websites such as geocaching.com Please pass this to all those nosey parkers out there."

 

The thirteenth post was myself, apologizing, and posting the above portion of their e-mail.

 

At this point I discussed the events with rediguana (previously also nzmoderator1), he closed and removed the thread from view. He then created a new thread where apologies were placed. rediguana never contributed to the initial topic.

 

This is the link to the new topic.

 

While it is unfortunate we have lost a new geocacher who was doing very impressive statistics, and also brought some disrepute to the sport. It was never the intention to do any such thing. I will not reproduce the initial e-mails which implied they were intending to become public. The initial topic was closed and removed because it contained private details. We have apologized and done everything in our power to prevent a repeat. Users have been instructed not to reveal personal details in that manner again.

Edited December 17, 2003 by da_snoop

[McKenzie Clan]

So what was revealed... A name, a location, and an e-mail address?

 

Crap, I have that in my profile, and pictures of my family to boot.

 

Some people just need to relax. Its not like they were stalking them or anything.

 

 

Scott McKenzie

Morewood, Ontario, Canada

samcorp73@yahoo.com

[+rooboy]

da_snoop,

 

You descrption of events reveal a harmless topic/thread. I too looked at Spike's Mum and Dad profile on gc.com and they have 60+ in around 30 days of caching--impressive.

 

Ciao

RooBoy

 

PS: Has any All Black player been blamed for the RWC semi-final loss to AUS yet?

[da_snoop]

Has any All Black player been blamed for the RWC semi-final loss to AUS yet?

 

The coach!

[+Sparky-Watts]

If I read that correctly, they offered their first names in a cache log, and also other personal information in an email to someone in those forums? I never use my first or last name in logs (and most places still use the alias Sparky Watts as my name when giving any information to a website), and never send it to people I have never met in person. Sounds to me like they did quite a bit to breach their own security and compromise their privacy. Just my opinion based on what I understood from your post.

[+SBPhishy]

I also don't really understand what the big deal is. I don't see the problem if other cachers know what your first name is. As long as no home address or home phone number was released, (or CC number) the rest is usually public information. My real name is "Ori". There. ive breached my own information. I hope i dont get stalked, or killed.

[+GeckoGeek]

Sounds to me like they did quite a bit to breach their own security and compromise their privacy. Just my opinion based on what I understood from your post.

Perhaps, but it's still bad form to collect all the information in a public posting like that. To some extent our privacy come from the fact it takes effort to track down all the bits and pieces of information. To collate information, especially information that's not "fully public" for lack of a better term (such as a written cache page and a private email) in a public area is very uncool.

[+New England n00b]

I have to agree. That's pretty * offensive. I don't go around trying to collect information & posting emails. That's just freaking rude, at the very least.

 

Find the caches, not people's privacy. Is that a difficult concept?

 

Some people make me sick.

[+Sparky-Watts]

Sounds to me like they did quite a bit to breach their own security and compromise their privacy.  Just my opinion based on what I understood from your post.

Perhaps, but it's still bad form to collect all the information in a public posting like that. To some extent our privacy come from the fact it takes effort to track down all the bits and pieces of information. To collate information, especially information that's not "fully public" for lack of a better term (such as a written cache page and a private email) in a public area is very uncool.

I'm not saying posting it was right, but it appears that the other forum members didn't have to work too hard to get what was posted. I don't worry about people getting my personal info or coming to my home....I'm usually here and have a gun close by, as well as a very LARGE German Shepherd (retired USArmy MP Dog). But, I'm usually pretty friendly, and don't need the gun or the dog in most cases.

[+BigNick]

As one of the people involved in the initial discussion we do feel pretty stink. We did not ever intend on offending the above cacher, it was just with their amazing track record over the past month they did intrigue the local cachers (imagine if you are involved in another activity and someone new started to play, and they were really good, but whenever they played they wore masks, would you not wonder who they were? - this is not trying to justify our actions, as I respect that we did cross the line).

So what was revealed... A name, a location, and an e-mail address?

The only thing that was revealed was their Christian names (assuming that they signed the log book with their real name) and speculation on their sons name and the area of town that they lived in (I assume that this was turned up via a search engine based on their names) + some of their history from another cacher. There was no email address, nor street address, nor surname posted

 

As soon as it was known that the above cacher objected to the discussion of their identity the thread was promptly deleted and an apology was posted.

 

We have all learnt from this error in judgement, and it will not be repeated.

 

Cheers

Nick and Bernadette

[+Bear_Left]

Just for the record, I'm the originator of the original thread, and meant it to be in the same prankish mood as I'd assumed (from received information) that the complainants' hiding of their identity was in.

 

If I'd had any idea that their privacy was so important to them, I wouldn't have started the thread, of course. I'm a good person, by and large, and don't want to hurt folks.

 

Spike's Mum and Dad (Spike's a dog, by the way) didn't give me any real indication that they were so concerned about their identity. I know their real name (it was on several emails they sent me, direct from their ISP, not via gc.com), I know his cellphone number (he called me on it, without dialling the blocking code) and their address is even in the local White Pages! I didn't put any of _that_ in the public forum, because that would've been intrusive and spoiled the game.

 

I regret the hurt they've taken, but I do think there's more to the story than we had any reason to suspect.

[Clown Knife]

I cannot believe the wasted time this topic has generated. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS PRIVACY ANYMORE! GET OVER IT AND MOVE ON! D'OH!

[+Divine]

Spike's a dog, by the way.

There you go again! You breached the dog's security!

 

Myself, I've given couple of newspaper and magazine interviews and one national television news interview on geocaching, all in which my username and real name (and face! ) was revealed. I think I've also included my real name with either my mobile phone number or email addy in every cache I've hidden.

 

However, if people choose to keep their identity hidden, I'll appreciate it, and the kind of a thread mentioned here went a bit out of the line. I'm sure, though, that no one meant any harm to the new cachers, and I really hope they decide to continue this great activity. Seems at least that they enjoy it a lot. I bet the NZ geocaching scene will benefit from their existence too!

 

BTW, there seems to be great hiding places near 'Kaihoro' village in Peter Jackon's movie Bad Taste. I'd love to visit those cliffs some day! I'm a Derek and Dereks don't run!

[Nemesis]

(Divine)...there seems to be great hiding places near 'Kaihoro' village in Peter Jackon's movie Bad Taste. I'd love to visit those cliffs some day!

 

Divine, you you will pleased to learn that one of my caches is hidden on one of those cliffs, see Makara Beach (Wellington). BTW, Kaihoro means 'eat hungrily' in Maori and the town does not really exist, instead Makara township and its surroundings were used for filming about half of the movie.

 

Back on topic... I'm cautious with my privacy when online, but my details are out there for those that know where to look. As others have said, its a fact of life. Nobody has my photo yet however. No that is not intended to be a challange for others to try to get it.

Edited December 17, 2003 by Nemesis

[+swanny]

Ok. Since my user name was mentioned at the top of this post. I'll claim which posts were mine and comment on each.

 

A fifth post to the topic occurred at this stage, it was by an ex kiwi geocacher currently living overseas was of a light nature and contained no personal information.

 

Not completely ex-kiwi, I'm coming back! As with a lot of my posts there is generally an attempt to be humourous.

 

An eight post occurred, it included a link to the white pages (telephone directory), it had no further personal information, but the implication you could turn up at the door. it was from the same cacher as whom made the fifth post.

 

Yep, looking back, with 2020 vision it wasn't a good idea to post a link to the whitepages website (btw it doesn't allow reverse directory like I've seen on some US directories). It was never my intention that someone turn up at the cachers' door, although, my bad it could be interpreted that way from the original post.

 

A tenth post occurred, same poster as the fifth and eighth posts. I'll quote this one "It's all part of the mystery I guess. Thinking more about it after talking to someone else, I say let them remain anonymous if they want to. It seems that it is how they have chosen to play the game."

 

This was me realising that there are quite a few other cachers that I haven't met yet - although making a mental note that I'd like to try for another caching event to meet some more. I've met a few of the Christchurch geocachers and they genuinely are a decent bunch.

 

Finally, I'll steal a part of a comment from someone else: I guess we took the game of hiding and finding too far. For this I'll add my appology.

 

Brendon,

Jena, Germany.

[+Cat'N'Geo]

I don't care if the government gets my info. It's those d**** advertisers & spammers I want to keep away from my info.

 

Gutter-guard has first amendment rights my big ol' hairy but!

[+Sparky-Watts]

Well, it's good to see that you were all adult enough to come explain what happened civilly and without insults, and then also that you apologized to the offended people. I respect your intelligence in doing so, and hope that things will resolve themselves and the offended party will continue to enjoy the sport/game/thing.

[+shunra]

Spike's Mum and Dad (Spike's a dog, by the way) didn't give me any real indication that they were so concerned about their identity. I know their real name (it was on several emails they sent me, direct from their ISP, not via gc.com), I know his cellphone number (he called me on it, without dialling the blocking code) and their address is even in the local White Pages! I didn't put any of _that_ in the public forum, because that would've been intrusive and spoiled the game.

There you go again. It's none of our business if Spike is a person, a dog, a cat or some other real or imaginary being.

LOL

[+Sallies]

We would like to add our apology to those above. We had no idea that our posting would cause offence and upset.

 

We feel really bad about being part of the reason that new geocachers are now disillusioned about the sport. We apologise for any offence that our thoughtless actions have caused.