+travisl Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 No need to name names or point fingers; I'm willing to go with the general consensus on this one. I'll try to phrase this as non-biased as possible, although you can probably guess where I stand on this one. Facts: 1) Not found logs take up server space 2) A not found log generally has little useful cache hunting information when it was more than a year ago with many subsequent finds 3) Not found logs provide a record of caches that a cacher has been to on their ''my cache page'' Question: Should not found logs be deleted after a certain period of time to save space on the GC.com servers, or should they be retained for historical purposes? Link to comment
+Markwell Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 Absolutely kept. Taking up server space is an issue that the Groundspeak people should be worried about, not the users. If they need more space, I'm sure they'll let us know well in advance of any problems. There are times that I periodically go out and remove my notes on pages if they don't carry any possible needed information to a story, but I would never delete a not-found note of mine. And unless I had a REALLY good reason, I wouldn't delete anyone else's either. Link to comment
Moun10Bike Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 I agree with Markwell - the not found logs absolutely should be kept. Regarding your first fact, I don't believe that deleting the log actually removes it from the database. It just marks it as "invisible" when viewing the cache page. Link to comment
Keystone Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 I do not recall ever hearing anything from TPTB regarding a server space problem for the logs. In fact, the argument about saving server space is specious: all logs are retained on the server even if they are archived off the associated cache pages. They can be recovered in appropriate circumstances. Shifting to personal opinion, I believe that a not-found log is an integral part of the history for both the cache and the geocacher, and it ought not be deleted. Especially when the log is as entertaining as the typical Travis DNF log. Exceptions may be in order when the DNF log is clearly inappropriate, as where the logger engages in a personal crusade against the owner, includes obscene language in the DNF log, etc. While the cache owner owns the cache page, the logger owns their log and it ought to be preserved absent these special circumstances. Sometimes there is an inherent tension between these competing ownership rights. Link to comment
+NJ Admin Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 (edited) Nothing is ever really deleted in a database. The fact that you can now go back and read a "deleted" find/DNF/note if you still have the link should attest to that. So deleting DNFs saves no server space, and only a tiny bit of bandwidth, and often make for more interesting reading then the find logs. Leave them unless you have a very good reason to remove them. [EDIT] Keystone and Moun10Bike beat me to it! Edited December 9, 2003 by NJ Admin Link to comment
Jeremy Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 Yeah, to me removing "not found" logs is like removing Bambi's mom from the beginning of that Disney movie. It's part of the story. Link to comment
Keystone Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 Wow! In less than an hour, Travis has gotten supportive responses from Jeremy, three volunteer cache reviewers, and the ever-authoritative Markwell. I have a feeling that a cache owner might be receiving an e-mail and a hyperlink..... Link to comment
+RocketMan Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 Regardless of the information contained in the not found logs, just having them posted on the cache page provides valuable information. If a cache has a high percentage of not found logs with a few found logs scattered throughout, it tells me that the cache is going to be a challenge and I should spend some extra time looking for it before giving up. It also tells me to spread out my search and to look in those not so obvious places. RM Link to comment
+Renegade Knight Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 I'm with everyone else. They are part of the cache history and DNF logs somtimes tell a much better story than when they finally find it. Link to comment
+Lazyboy & Mitey Mite Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 Hmmm I've removed my own not found logs a few times. I guess I should have left them in there. I figured I was clearing server space. Well I'll leave them alone from now on. Link to comment
martmann Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 I like the not found logs, particularly travisl's not found logs, deleting them would be a crime. Link to comment
Pantalaimon Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 Yeah, to me removing "not found" logs is like removing Bambi's mom from the beginning of that Disney movie. It's part of the story. Which Disney movie is that? Link to comment
+Markwell Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 I'm with everyone else. They are part of the cache history and DNF logs somtimes tell a much better story than when they finally find it. I always like to link to my favorite not found log. Lots of others in the area got a good chuckle at it, too. Link to comment
+Marky Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 The only thing I have to add is my wish that geocachers actually log their do not finds. As a cache owner, I like to know what activity is going on with my caches, even if it's DNFs. As a finder, it provides valuable information. Plus, in general, DNF logs are more fun to read... --Marky Link to comment
+Criminal Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 (edited) I think you’ve all been duped; this has nothing to do with server space, but with chagrin. Travis has good reason, a lot of good reasons actually, for wanting to see the NF logs disappear. I was on the telephone yesterday with a Major up at TACC at Scott AFB, Illinois. When I told him I was calling from Washington he asked, “Do you know that guy who can’t find a geocache? By the way, what is a geocache?” You see, his reputation is nationwide, perhaps even worldwide. But I should start at the beginning. As a young lad, Travis used to dread the coming of the Easter holiday. The other children would parade their heaping baskets of colored eggs, peeps, and chocolate balls before him. Poor Travis could only look on as one by one; all the Easter treasures were discovered, and a little tumbleweed blew around in the bottom of his pink basket. Even at Christmas, Travis could find little joy, or even his presents. “They’re right under the boughs of the tree!” his exasperated mother would exclaim. Little Travis would pull back the lower branches and ask, “Where? I can’t see them!” At school, he was constantly losing his books in his desk, his lunch on the table, and even his coat on the back of his chair. High school presented new and embarrassing situations for Trav, as he was then known. Young Nicole, with the budding shirt muffins, stood in front of him, glaring and seething in anger. “You stood me up again, I missed the dance!” she hissed through clenched teeth. “I’m sorry Nicole,” Travis said sadly, “I couldn’t find my dad’s car.” “Hey!” she said, “My eyes are up here, and your dad’s car was right in the driveway!” Feeling dejected, Travis sought advice from his guidance counselor. She told Travis to find a hobby to get his mind off his troubles. “Just don’t pick a hobby that involves finding things.” she recommended. Travis was successful in finding one thing though; he found love and was married. The marriage almost didn’t go down though as he got lost backing out of the driveway on his way to the church. The rest is a little fuzzy, thank God, and today Travis has a wife and a daughter. True, he has to tie a string around his finger and her belt loop to keep from losing her at the mall, but you do what you gotta do, right? Somewhere along the way, Travis discovered geocaching. Geocaching presented a number of challenges to his poor navigation and finding skills. I paraphrased this over in the NW forum, but will expound on it here as well. Travis became embarrassed when new geocachers such as myself were slowing building a find count while his NF count continued to grow. One cacher, who is wise and good-looking, was even emailing poor Travis to gloat over FTFs. (He was only doing this in hopes of spurring Travis on towards more finds.) Travis became worried that his wife and daughter may not hold him in high regard if he were to quit his new hobby, so he began to wonder how he could improve his find count. While he should have been trying to improve his finding skills, he decided instead to consider how he could simply boost the number of successful finds. November of 2002 would be momentous year for Travis. Most people will never receive a vision during their whole life, some will receive many. Travis received his vision late one night as he lay awake worrying. This account was pulled from his diary. And lo, as I stared upward at the dark ceiling of my discontent, there appeared before me an apparition; I wanted to believe it an angel. It appeared slowly, as though it were having trouble taking form. The room crackled with electricity and began to smell like the inside of an ammo can. I drew back in fear; there was much sweat and trembling. The angel finally took shape and I was shocked to see that it looked much like Jeremy, only ten feet tall and somewhat transparent. His face was stern, his eyes bore straight through my soul, and his hair flew like hair does in a wild breeze. I at once saw his hand begin to rise and I put my arm up in a defensive maneuver. “Don’t smite me!” I cried out. The spirit put his hand up to his chin with his thumb up and his index finger pointing outwardly towards the east, his mouth opened and he spoke in voice that boomed like that of rough god. “YOU ARE TRAVIS, THE FINDER OF NOT!” “Finder of not?” I thought, “what the hell kind of speech is that?” Then again spoke the ghoul, “YOU ARE TRAVIS, THE FINDER OF NOT! I HAVE COME UNTO YOU TO GRANT YOU THE POWER OF FINDING! With that, the spirit drew a Garmin seemingly from thin air and pointed it at me. A powerful bolt of pure white light streaked from his hand and hit me squarely in the forehead, where it was deflected to the mirror, the shiny belt buckle on my pants, and straight into the toilet. The Jeremy looking spirit scratched his head. ”THOU SHALL USE PLAN B THEN!” he boomed. BRING UNTO ME GEOCACHERS, BRING THEM TWO BY TWO OR SIX BY SIX, IT MATTERS NOT! ASSEMBLE BEFORE THEE GREAT MASSES OF GEOCACHERS TO DO THY BIDDING! FOOL THEM INTO BELIEVING THEY ARE ATTENDING AN EVENT! MAKE THEM GO OUT BEFORE THEE IN GREAT NUMBERS SO THAT THE EARTH SHALL SHUDDER AND BE TRAMPLED DOWN UNDER THEIR CHARGING HOOVES. WHEN THE VEGETATION IS FLATTENED, EVEN THE HIDEYEST OF CACHES SHALL BE OBVIOUS UNTO THEE!” With my voice trembling, I asked, “How shall I find these geocachers?” The apparition seemed angered by my question and boomed, ”THOU SHALL USE THE FORUMS! THOU SHALL CALL IT THE BREMERTON CACHE MACHINE! I opened my mouth to ask him where I should begin, but he checked his watch and quickly vanished. There was much success and rejoicing on the day of the event as Travis followed along behind the herd of cachers and his find count leapt to legend status. But there was shame in Travis’ mind over the method used to bump those numbers, but not so much shame that he couldn’t plan more cache machines. The rest is well known by those of us here in the Pacific Northwest. There are those that believe that if you sit very still and listen, really listen just before you open a PNW cache container, you will hear the faint call of Travis echoing in the wind, “I found one Geogrrrl! I really found one!” Edited December 9, 2003 by Criminal Link to comment
+javamutt Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 Whoa. That was pretty heavy. Link to comment
+Prime Suspect Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 Yeah, to me removing "not found" logs is like removing Bambi's mom from the beginning of that Disney movie. It's part of the story. Which Disney movie is that? "The Lion King". Don't you remember the part where Simba tracks down, kills and eats Bambi's mother? That may have just been in the director's cut. Link to comment
Pantalaimon Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 "The Lion King". Don't you remember the part where Simba tracks down, kills and eats Bambi's mother? Let's try to keep it PG, shall we? Link to comment
+travisl Posted December 9, 2003 Author Share Posted December 9, 2003 I'd think you were stalking me, Criminal, but Lucile's name was Nicole. Whew. Link to comment
+Criminal Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 I'd think you were stalking me, Criminal, but Lucile's name was Nicole. Whew. Oops, my bad. Lucile was the girl that worked at the Jack-in-the-box. Post changed to reflect the accurate information. Link to comment
+Mopar Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 I think you’ve all been duped; this has nothing to do with server space, but with chagrin. <SNIP>> “I found one Geogrrrl! I really found one!” OMG! I can't breath! I'm laughing too hard! Link to comment
+Runaround Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 I think its been said before, but.... Criminal for President! Link to comment
+Divine Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 I think its been said before, but.... Criminal for President! But don't you alr....errrr... I never delete my (or no one else's) DNFs. I know some people edit theirs to Found-its when they finally find the cache, and someone has said he actually considers his DNFs as a 'ToDo-list' where he can go check which caches he should go back to. When he finally finds them, he edits the log to Found-it. Like many others have said, I consider my DNFs as my caching history, and would never delete them. Link to comment
+robert Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 (edited) maybe we should have a stat site about those with the highest DNF percentage. we'll call it lamepeople.com. I vote for - travisl - kablooey Edited December 10, 2003 by mrkablooey Link to comment
+briansnat Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 (edited) maybe we should have a stat site about those with the highest DNF percentage. we'll call it lamepeople.com. I'm the king of DNF's. Anyway, I think they should be logged and left. They are part of the history of the cache and often tell funnier stories than the found logs. Christopher Columbus pulled a DNF on India. What if he deleted all his logs and went home and didn't tell anyone about what he DID find? Huh, think about THAT! Edited December 10, 2003 by briansnat Link to comment
+Sparky-Watts Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 MEDIC!! MEDIC!!!!!!!!! I think I broke a rib laughing at Criminal's story! OH, my, THAT was great! Why are you wasting time doing whatever it is you are doing with your life? You should write for Disney or Paramount or Popular Mechanics! Link to comment
+Swampgecko Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 An interesting thread, and quite a funny post there Criminal, I now feel like I have known Travis for all my caching life. but for the topic's sake, I use DNF's as a to-do list. I have one on my log list that dates back to the first month I was geocaching nearly 2 yrs ago. and having it sit there is now spurring me on to have another go at the cache. This would have happened sooner but work is the curse of the Geocaching Class... now what do I do with my DNF's? well I convert them to a find, but I leave all the previous details and dates in there so that the people can still access it all. But I also leave DNF's there on a as required basis. It really depends on how I see the DNF fitting into the overall picture for the cache. Link to comment
+sept1c_tank Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 Posting DNF, and leaving it for historical purposes, is staying in tune with reality. That's something we can all afford. Link to comment
kablooey Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 I'm the king of DNF's. Oh really? 260 currently logged DNFs (not including the ones deleted by kermit on Golden Bear). Link to comment
+travisl Posted December 11, 2003 Author Share Posted December 11, 2003 /me bows down to kablooey, with my lowly 79 DNF's (16%) compared to his 19.8%. Link to comment
+robert Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 /me bows down to kablooey, with my lowly 79 DNF's (16%) compared to his 19.8%. and remember, that 19.8% is as of last year!! (well, Jan '03, almost '04 now) he's gotta be breaking 30% by now I'm sure. Link to comment
+Jamie Z Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 ...the ones deleted by kermit on Golden Bear. What's that about? On-topic--> DNF's should stay unedited. Jamie Link to comment
+Team GPSaxophone Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 "The Lion King". Don't you remember the part where Simba tracks down, kills and eats Bambi's mother? Let's try to keep it PG, shall we? What do you consider 'budding shirt muffins' then? G-rated? Link to comment
+DustyJacket Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 They should be kept. Especially as Not Found logs are generally more entertaining. Link to comment
kablooey Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 (edited) ...the ones deleted by kermit on Golden Bear. What's that about? Oh, KermitDFrog got annoyed by the complaints on a very difficult cache he created; so he decided to clear out all the logs, including all logged finds and DNFs. Amongst my DNF attempts was a classic one where I couldn't find my car one night after I had given up looking for the cache. I spent over an hour walking up and down the streets of Berkeley thinking for sure that I had been towed or had my car stolen, adding to the cachelog from my phone (that was back when I could edit without Javascript), before I finally found my parking spot. Edited December 11, 2003 by kablooey Link to comment
kablooey Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 /me bows down to kablooey, with my lowly 79 DNF's (16%) compared to his 19.8%. and remember, that 19.8% is as of last year!! (well, Jan '03, almost '04 now) he's gotta be breaking 30% by now I'm sure. No, you're out of date, Mr. travisl is using the updated numbers. Link to comment
+robert Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 (edited) No, you're out of date, Mr.travisl is using the updated numbers. My apologies for over-guesstimating your ineptitude. You must have known this thread existed! Edited December 11, 2003 by mrkablooey Link to comment
+trippy1976 Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 I wouldn't ever delete any entry from my caches that's in good taste. It's part of the history of the cache. Old DNF logs are just as important and pertinent as old found logs to me. Link to comment
+Volvo Man Posted December 17, 2003 Share Posted December 17, 2003 I think its been said before, but.... Criminal for President! hasn't that already happened???? Link to comment
kablooey Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 My apologies for over-guesstimating your ineptitude. Maybe it's not an overguesstimate. Maybe it was just a prediction for the future. Logs so far for this year: Five finds. Four DNFs. And I thought I was getting better (No DNFs from 12/15 to 12/30). Link to comment
+Lazyboy & Mitey Mite Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 I used to delete DNF's earlier. Now I leave them stand. One cacher from back east made some really nasty comments on my cache page when he couldn't find one of my caches. I saw no reason for anyone to see that stuff so I deleted them. On his 3rd try he became civil and I left that effort. Link to comment
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