Firemen, Please

[+team travel pig]

There's an old, abandoned office building (empty for around 10 years now) up the road from my office. It was several brass "sand pipe" inlets? at intervals in the walls. Many have lost the screw on caps but some have not. Would it be problematic if I put a cache there? Explain the sand pipe usage, please.

 

Thanks.

[+Eric K]

There's an old, abandoned office building (empty for around 10 years now) up the road from my office. It was several brass "sand pipe" inlets? at intervals in the walls. Many have lost the screw on caps but some have not. Would it be problematic if I put a cache there? Explain the sand pipe usage, please.

 

Thanks.

IMHO this has bad idea written all over it.

 

While you may be discreet just think like a non geocacher for a second. Even if it's an abandoned building can you imagine the first time somebody is seen putting some kind of object in a pipe on a building.

 

I'd bet you 1000 to 1 that the bomb squad would be there in about 5 minutes.

 

Don't be offended, that is just my opinion.

[+team travel pig]

Not offended at all - you make a good point. That section of our downtown is pretty much unrevitalized, so the chances of being seen are not great... But you're probably right... I was bummed because a great spot behind a giant vintage alarm bell on the outside of another building is too close to another downtown cache, so I was looking for an alternative without totally thinking it through...

[+brad.32]

Do you mean "stand pipe"? A sand pipe is a rock formation. A stand pipe is a (metal) pipe for setting water pressure.

 

Probably not a good location like Eric wrote.

[+team travel pig]

Could have been stand - the metal was pretty corroded and hard to read.

[lessenergy]

It is a stand pipe. They are outside of many buildings and water does NOT come out of them. Firefighters attach a water hose to them (usually from a fire hydrant) to pump water into them. The water is then sent through those pipes to the sprinklers inside the building.

 

That way, the sprinkler system is not dependent on internal water pressure that may fail during a fire and water does not need to be in the sprinkler pipes all the time which, inevitably would leak.

 

Les.

[+Scoobie10]

Interesting question. Being a firefighter, let me say this; even if the building is unoccupied the sprinkler system could still be fed via the stand pipes if the building were to catch on fire. If I didn't see the cache in the pipe, and chances are that I wouldn't given the situation, and hooked up a line it would blow the cache to a blocking point in the system and this would restrict water flow considerably.

 

It wouldn't be a good idea to do this but thanks for bringing it up, it's a very good question.

[+Brenin Tegeingl]

It is a stand pipe. They are outside of many buildings and water does NOT come out of them. Fire fighters attach a water hose to them (usually from a fire hydrant) to pump water into them. The water is then sent through those pipes to the sprinkler inside the building.

 

That way, the sprinkler system is not dependent on internal water pressure that may fail during a fire and water does not need to be in the sprinkler pipes all the time which, inevitably would leak.

 

Les.

There is two types of Stand Pipe, depending on the size of the building, the first is as described and is classed as a uncharged system. On larger buildings due to the extra time it would take to pressurise (charge with water) the upper floors, these have a charged system, already full of water. They both operate exactly the same way, its just that the charged system saves the fire fighters precus time having to pump thousands of litres into the system before they can connect into it. Also stand pipes usually do not feed the sprinkler system, but supplies connection valves on each floor allowing for a quicker supplies to the firemen, rather than having to run hoses from the appliance into the building and up to each floor. Sorry to Witter on, but it's hard to describe this properly in a few words. Dave.

[+NJ Admin]

Interesting question. Being a firefighter, let me say this; even if the building is unoccupied the sprinkler system could still be fed via the stand pipes if the building were to catch on fire. If I didn't see the cache in the pipe, and chances are that I wouldn't given the situation, and hooked up a line it would blow the cache to a blocking point in the system and this would restrict water flow considerably.

 

It wouldn't be a good idea to do this but thanks for bringing it up, it's a very good question.

Thanks for the creative idea, and discussing it with fellow cachers before submitting as a cache. I would not knowingly approve such a cache, based mostly on the reasons quoted. An unoccupied building probably has a greater chance of catching fire, and restricting the water used for fighting a fire could possibly cause increased fire damage, and possibly even cost a firefighter his life.

[+team travel pig]

You got it. When I thought is said "sand" that seemed less urgent than a water pipe. Thanks for all the replies on this... I'll get thinking on something else. The last thing I want to do is endanger anyone's life!

[+greengecko]

As a fire protection engineer I can assure you that placing a cache in a building’s standpipe connection is an extremely bad idea and illegal! Standpipe systems are installed for the protection of life and property, even in abandoned buildings. A cache placed in the pipe connection, no matter how small, would seriously impair the system’s ability to provide the intended protection. I would hate to be responsible for a cache that contributed to injury, the loss of a life or increased property damage during a fire.

 

I’m glad you asked the question. Perhaps this discussion will alert others to the dangers of tampering with fire protection systems no matter how innocent the intent.

Edited December 5, 2003 by greengecko

[+Sparky-Watts]

I'd certainly hate to have my name on a cache that was found in the standpipe of a pile of smoldering remains......bad kharma!

 

Good of you to ask, however. I bet the approvers all across the country run into all kinds of people who submit ideas like these without thinking them through. I've got a feeling, I'll probably end up being one of those people some day....don't know why, just sounds like something stupid I'd do.

[+astrojr1&GGGal]

We recently did a cache that was a decon container in a downspout, velcro'ed to the upper part of the angled spout at the bottom. Didn't seem like the building was big enough to make the flow sufficient to be impaired at any time by the cache. What do you all think? Same as the stand pipe or is this apples and oranges?

Thanks

[+Sparky-Watts]

I'm thinking apples and oranges. I don't see that placing one in a downspout will endanger anything but the cache itsself, not like the original question here about placing one in a fire-protection system. But, you'd be amazed at the amount of water a "small" building can displace in even a small rainfall. I guess theoretically, if it were the only downspout, and it got plugged, depending on the roof design, it could potetially cause water to stand on the roof collapsing it, but I really don't see that happening in any type of building.

 

Anyone else got a different view of this?

[+Confucius' Cat]

yes. Bad idea to place a cache where it can restrict water flow of any kind in or on a structure.

 

Blocking a downspout could, at minimum, cause water to overflow the gutters and people might get wet, resulting in building maintenance people finding the cache.

 

At worst... I was a firefighter practicing ladder techniques in my little town on an abandoned building- three stories, brick, the tallest structure in town.

 

We put our ladders up to the top and were able to reach the roof just barely. All went well in the practice.

 

The very next day, we had a heavy rain and the roof collapsed, which brought down the entire building. Could have been caused by blocked downspouts. We don't know, but the bottom line is the building collapsed because of standing water on the roof.

 

Probably irrelevant, but a good story anyway. The point is you never know what you might cause.

[+Sparky-Watts]

 

At worst... I was a firefighter practicing ladder techniques in my little town on an abandoned building- three stories, brick, the tallest structure in town.

 

We put our ladders up to the top and were able to reach the roof just barely. All went well in the practice.

 

The very next day, we had a heavy rain and the roof collapsed, which brought down the entire building. Could have been caused by blocked downspouts. We don't know, but the bottom line is the building collapsed because of standing water on the roof.

 

Probably irrelevant, but a good story anyway. The point is you never know what you might cause.

Or maybe it was the firemen practicing ventilation techniques on the roof......

[+Firehouse16]

 

We put our ladders up to the top and were able to reach the roof just barely.  All went well in the practice.

Or maybe it was the firemen practicing ventilation techniques on the roof......

 

Oouch. It's good to have at least have 3 rungs above the roof line. If they vented the roof, it would not have caused excess weight from water, just the opposite, it would have been a big drain.

Edited December 8, 2003 by Firehouse16 & Code3

[+AlistairMacilherron]

I agree with everyone that placing a cache in a standpipe is a bad idea. Yes if not checked properly it could get lodged and severely reduce water flow. But I also have to comment that as a FF/EMT myself that I was always taught that when I am connecting my engine to the standpipe system or for that mater any hydrant that I have to take off the cap and make sure that there are no obstructions in the way to block the system from working properly. Every time that I hook up to a standpipe system I do exactly that. Now don’t get me wrong, I am completely against the idea of placing a cache in a standpipe system but everyone on this post makes it sound like you don’t check for obstructions you just hook up and charge.

[+sbell111]

I agree with everyone that placing a cache in a standpipe is a bad idea. Yes if not checked properly it could get lodged and severely reduce water flow. But I also have to comment that as a FF/EMT myself that I was always taught that when I am connecting my engine to the standpipe system or for that mater any hydrant that I have to take off the cap and make sure that there are no obstructions in the way to block the system from working properly. Every time that I hook up to a standpipe system I do exactly that. Now don’t get me wrong, I am completely against the idea of placing a cache in a standpipe system but everyone on this post makes it sound like you don’t check for obstructions you just hook up and charge.

Do you realize that this thread is three and a half years old?

[+Cache_advance]

*shakes his head and chuckles*

 

I hadn't realized it until I saw SBells post..

 

Amusing... truly amusing!

[+Criminal]

That section of our downtown is pretty much unrevitalized....

Why do you find this spot speical?

Why do you want to bring other geocachers here?

 

The thread may be old, but the significance is the same.

Edited April 27, 2007 by Criminal

[+briansnat]

Interesting question. Being a firefighter, let me say this; even if the building is unoccupied the sprinkler system could still be fed via the stand pipes if the building were to catch on fire. If I didn't see the cache in the pipe, and chances are that I wouldn't given the situation, and hooked up a line it would blow the cache to a blocking point in the system and this would restrict water flow considerably.

 

It wouldn't be a good idea to do this but thanks for bringing it up, it's a very good question.

Thanks for the creative idea, and discussing it with fellow cachers before submitting as a cache. I would not knowingly approve such a cache, based mostly on the reasons quoted. An unoccupied building probably has a greater chance of catching fire, and restricting the water used for fighting a fire could possibly cause increased fire damage, and possibly even cost a firefighter his life.

 

And even if its unoccupied, it is still usually private property and permission would be needed.

[+briansnat]

Oops, I was just lured into responding to a 3 year old thread that was bumped for who knows what reason.

[+thedeadpirate]

Couple of things. I'd never heard of a standpipe and found the entire thread very interesting to read. I would never have found it otherwise, since I can't imagine myself doing a search for standpipes.

 

Second, don't we constantly tell people to search the forums for answers? Didn't we just have a thread a few weeks back discussing adding to an existing thread rather than starting a new one about the same content?

 

This may be an old thread, but I don't see a problem with it being bumped up. Since the question has been answered already, it will just drift back off the front page.

 

No harm done and some of us who were not around in 2003 learned something new.

 

**edited to add that when AlistairMacilherron bumped this thread, he actually added a significant piece of information.**

Edited April 27, 2007 by GeoBain

[+sbell111]

Couple of things. I'd never heard of a standpipe and found the entire thread very interesting to read. I would never have found it otherwise, since I can't imagine myself doing a search for standpipes.

 

Second, don't we constantly tell people to search the forums for answers? Didn't we just have a thread a few weeks back discussing adding to an existing thread rather than starting a new one about the same content?

 

This may be an old thread, but I don't see a problem with it being bumped up. Since the question has been answered already, it will just drift back off the front page.

 

No harm done and some of us who were not around in 2003 learned something new.

I certainly agree with your position that if you have something to add to an old thread, you should bring it back up. However, why dredge up an old thread with a 'me, too' post?

[+Confucius' Cat]

Do you realize that this thread is three and a half years old?

Wow!

I started from the top and being an ex firefighter (a very poor one), took interest in it.

 

Imagine my surprise to see I had ALREADY POSTED!