Strict Geocaching Talk

3.9k · December 4, 2003

El Diablo wrote:
There were none then. we had some people that thought differently than most. They expressed views that weren't shared by most, but they were respectful and in return were respected.

Wow. Did you see that airplane fly by?

I think you missed the point completely.

*****

I usually miss very little. Let me define the enemy so that you may better understand.

The enemy is the ones that showed up in the last 6 months or so and started taking over the topics. They had nothing positive to contribute. They spent most of their time posting negative and derogatory remarks about others. They whined and complained about everything. They carried this to the point that we starting being heavely moderated. They couldn't leave well enogh alone, they had to take everything to the extreme.

Now you may ask why am I upset about all that. Well we used to have civil discussions in here that quite often went of topic. However we did it with respect and in fun. It was done in such a way that no one minded. Certain people have changed that. Now the Admins have had to make rules to deal with them and it effects the rest of us. That's why I'm upset.

El Diablo

1.4k · December 4, 2003

Yeah that's all well and fine. But "enemy". I don't think so.

*****

3.9k · December 4, 2003

Yeah that's all well and fine. But "enemy". I don't think so.

*****

Just curious as to what you would call them?

El Diablo

December 4, 2003

I don't recall ever arguing in favor of something I don't agree with, but I suppose it could happen. I do love a good debate. I like to post in "controversial threads", but I don't like to see them closed down. They get closed when people get out of hand. It is possible to have a fast paced, heated debate without insulting people. I have a pretty good idea when a thread is about to be closed (most of the time) just by reading the posts. People can get upset when someone points out flaws in their position on a topic, and flaming and attacks often result. That's when the threads get locked. Usually it's two or three random people who square off against each other in any given controversy. That's fine, as long as the discussion remains civil. The mods are there to attempt to keep those topics open for people to use by nudging people in the right direction. If, despite their best efforts, the htread cannot be saved, is gets locked.

I'll second that!

I enjoy a good debate. Sparring with BloenCustoms in recent discussions has been interesting. At no point did I feel he was getting personal or below-the-belt. I feel good clean debates like that are healthy.

However, things do get out of hand at time, and I certainly have been guilty of that. I try not to get personal, especially in public, but sometimes I slip.

In private is another matter. Certain chuckleheads will get a e-mail from me for attacks, and it may not be pretty.

I will say there are some very unbalanced individuals out there. One former poster (I think he's long gone from the forums now) actually took up "stalking" me, and harrassing me by phone. What a loon.

George

1.4k · December 4, 2003

El Diablo wrote:
Now you may ask why am I upset about all that. Well we used to have civil discussions in here that quite often went of topic. However we did it with respect and in fun. It was done in such a way that no one minded.

I'm sure that I could bring up some old posts from well beyond six months ago where people were a lot less than respectful to one another. If you're going to go on and on about something, at least make certain that the point is valid (no disrespect intended towards yourself).

*****

1.4k · December 4, 2003

El Diablo wrote:
Just curious as to what you would call them?

How about "Fellow cachers?" Yeah, that works.

By calling someone "the enemy" you predispose yourself to viewing them with a very narrow point of view. It's like when you are having a problem with someone and you say to yourself "if that son of a gun even looks at me the wrong way today I'm going to blast him". That kind of mentality only leads to confrontation. Perhaps you should reconsider the word "enemy" -- it's a pretty strong word.

Yeah, fellow cachers is a lot better.

*****

1.3k · December 4, 2003

I feel the same, Nincehelser. You are a worthy adversary. I enjoyed discussing the permission topic with you, among others. I felt that although we strongly disagreed about a few points, the discussion was productive without being abusive.

4k · December 4, 2003

I find I'm much more likely to abuse and insult myself when I get into an argument with myself.....but at least I always win!

eeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr, uuuuuuummmmmmmmmmm.......... geoCaching

3.9k · December 4, 2003

El Diablo wrote:
Just curious as to what you would call them?

How about "Fellow cachers?" Yeah, that works.

By calling someone "the enemy" you predispose yourself to viewing them with a very narrow point of view. It's like when you are having a problem with someone and you say to yourself "if that son of a gun even looks at me the wrong way today I'm going to blast him". That kind of mentality only leads to confrontation. Perhaps you should reconsider the word "enemy" -- it's a pretty strong word.

Yeah, fellow cachers is a lot better.

*****

J5, It's obvious that you and I will never agree on how these fourms should be conducted. So while we are both civil...let's just agree to disagree. You can persue your objective, and I'll persue mine. I've enjoyed the debate.

El Diablo

1.4k · December 4, 2003

Sure, if it makes you happy.

btw: I certainly don't consider you "the enemy".

*****

Edited December 4, 2003 by Jomarac5

1.5k · December 4, 2003

I'll 52nd the motion that there should be an open forum where topics within a certain scope (PG-rated, non-religion oriented (that can is just TOO big), with perhaps some other limits, but other than that open. Personal attacks would be a matter of maturity, as would responding to those attacks.

I post on another forum, but it is a closed community of individuals who banded together after the utter destruction of something we all had in common. New members have joined in the meantime, but with recommendations of current members. It's resulted in a very tight 'community', and there are limitations on what we can talk about, but those limits are few and far between. Occasionally, someone gets a smackdown from a moderator or the site admin, and it's respected because we know the limits and don't try to push it. The questionable threads are closed immediately, but not deleted and threads certainly aren't edited.

As a moderator of one of the forums, I haven't needed to intercede in anything yet. Bottom line is that censorship isn't really an issue unless the topic delves into the illegal.

Of course, that site doesn't have a corporation with a for-profit side running things so that could change the perception a bit.

Edited December 4, 2003 by Brian - Team A.I.

4.5k · December 4, 2003

This is totally off-topic and I'll probably get a smackdown, but Jomarac5, I've been admiring your avatar. It reminds me of one I was working on awhile ago when we were all creating our own logos. Just curious though about the object your world is casting its shadow onto. Could you let us in on it? What and where is it?

ALan

2.3k · December 4, 2003

What you fail to realize is that there is an online culture that has developed here and the members of that culture do not wish to be oppressed. They want to talk openly and honestly about the issues that they face while engaged in this activity.

What we really don't need is someone trying to tell us how we can, or cannot do, that which we are all passionate about. We are not idiots.

You hit the nail right on the sweet spot of the head J5!

I love talking about geocaching, but as I have gotten to know those of you who post regularly, I find myself wanting to discuss other topics which may or may not be related to geocaching... Email is not a good recourse for this as I still want to experience the community culture and input. Its very refreshing to see all the differences between all of us yet we share some of the same passions.

First off I would like to thank J5 and Doc-Dean. The above post and response got me thinking. I too believe we should have an off topic discussion here. The admins do not. But WHY do we need to have it HERE? It would certainly be more convenient for we the customers/guests, but why should the admins want it here? Especially in light of recent events. Maybe those are the reasons we need to come up with so as to convince them it would be in their best interest to have it here.

One reason could be that if we go somewhere else to have off topic discussions we might as well do all our stuff there. This may result in traffic and revenue loss here.

The harshness expressed recently does nothing but to get everyone more set in their ways and unwilling to compromise. Maybe if we discuss this reasonably we can come to a solution most of us can live with.

I would also like to suggest to TPTB that maybe they could try an off topic forum for a short time to see how it would work, one month or so should do. If it does not work out, at least you can say it was tried, if it does, great- give it a probationary period of say 3 months more before making a final decision. Of course we the users would have to largely self moderate ourselves to ensure that it goes smoothly.

Comments?

Cache On.

[edit] changed area to forum per J5's suggestion in last paragraph.

Edited December 4, 2003 by Corp Of Discovery

1.4k · December 4, 2003

Alan2, obviously you've deduced that it is a shadow so that part of it apparently needs no further explanation -- what it's casting it's shadow on is not important. It just is.

Corp of Discovery wrote:
I would also like to suggest to TPTB that maybe they could try an off topic area for a short time to see how it would work, one month or so should do. If it does not work out, at least you can say it was tried, if it does, great- give it a probationary period of say 3 months more before making a final decision. Of course we the users would have to largely self moderate ourselves to ensure that it goes smoothly.

This sounds very reasonable. But it needs to be a forum -- not just a single thread. How about it Jeremy? Is this something that you'd be willing to meet halfway on? You could stick this forum out of the way, down at the very bottom of the forum listing page. Where's the harm in trying? I'm sure that most everyone would be grateful.

*****

Edit: added wink

Edited December 4, 2003 by Jomarac5

3.8k · December 4, 2003

Edit: added wink

1.2k · December 4, 2003

Alan2, obviously you've deduced that it is a shadow so that part of it apparently needs no further explanation -- what it's casting it's shadow on is not important. It just is.

Corp of Discovery wrote:
I would also like to suggest to TPTB that maybe they could try an off topic area for a short time to see how it would work, one month or so should do. If it does not work out, at least you can say it was tried, if it does, great- give it a probationary period of say 3 months more before making a final decision. Of course we the users would have to largely self moderate ourselves to ensure that it goes smoothly.

This sounds very reasonable. But it needs to be a forum -- not just a single thread. How about it Jeremy? Is this something that you'd be willing to meet halfway on? You could stick this forum out of the way, down at the very bottom of the forum listing page. Where's the harm in trying? I'm sure that most everyone would be grateful.

*****

Edit: added wink

Jeremy has stated Over and over.

That there will be no off topic forum.

What part of NO are you having problems with or is the normal thing where if its not the answer you want you keep asking again and again. (this is not an attack, just stating known facts)

Accept it. it is not going to happen. Give it up. go caching.

I want a..... aww its not even worth it any more.

Edited December 4, 2003 by CO Admin

December 4, 2003

I haven't been following this long enough to figure out what has been asked for and why it has been rejected, however I will say that if certain people feel very strongly that such an off-topic discussion area should exist, that they should take steps to create it off-site.

There may be good, valid reasons why the powers that be don't want to play host to a discussion area that they have zero control over. I'm thinking along the lines of liability. Perhaps a yahoo group, or a usenet group would be better suited for that type of discussion area.

1.4k · December 4, 2003

OhNoMrBill wrote:
There may be good, valid reasons why the powers that be don't want to play host to a discussion area that they have zero control over.

Who said anything about zero control?

*****

2.1k · December 4, 2003

I haven't been following this long enough to figure out what has been asked for and why it has been rejected, however I will say that if certain people feel very strongly that such an off-topic discussion area should exist, that they should take steps to create it off-site.

In a thread a bit more pertinent to this fact, I pointed out justifiedly that unless you can somehow hook into this site's user database for names and passwords, then you have 3 problems...

1) Misrepresentation...everyone would have to log as themselves there and if someone intentionally beat you to your own username, they'd be able to use it as a sock puppet that looked like you (or you'd be able to create a new account and have the time of your life saying 'wait, that's not me!' and so on).

2) Posts in this forum would not magically appear over there when they went sour or started sour. This means you'd still have people going crazy here and getting modded to high hell and back and the *best* you could do is say "Oh yeah! I'll meet you over in ju66l3r's Palace of Pestulence Phorum of Phun!! We'll settle each other's hashes there!"

3) Which leads to problem 3...if people are using these forums, they're not likely to open up yet another window and head over there just to see who's in the main arena for the 10 count today...

It's just not reasonable to have a totally separate unlinked site for truly "general" discussions. No, what these forums should have are 2 more forums; General (K) and General (PG-13). Wanna see what kind of cake people like to eat...General(K)....wanna see if they wear boxers, briefs, or nothing at all....General(PG-13).

2.7k · December 4, 2003

wanna see if they wear boxers, briefs, or nothing at all....General(PG-13).

I hope you meant General( R ) and not PG-13!

Edited December 4, 2003 by New England n00b

4.5k · December 4, 2003

Alan2, obviously you've deduced that it is a shadow so that part of it apparently needs no further explanation -- what it's casting it's shadow on is not important. It just is.

Thanks for clearing that up. Would you consider it plagiarism if I used the same object to cast my logo's shadow on?

December 4, 2003

*****

Well we used to have civil discussions in here that quite often went of topic. However we did it with respect and in fun. It was done in such a way that no one minded.

El Diablo

Yes -- finally a response that hits on what I was talking about with this post. THIS is the kind of off-topic stuff that now gets blocked, for no good reason. Let's have this back, but clearly not the extreme examples that others have given and that I never was arguing for.

.....and wow....this topic really has become interesting over night.....Enemy !!! That's what I mean by responding with statements that are extreme and in my opinion unfounded.

December 4, 2003

Hey Admin !

To create a "off-topic" forum will take you 30 sec. to do !!! So please listen to your audience, this is not the first post asking you politely to have a "off-topic" section !!!

SO JUST DO IT FOR US OK?

TANKS IN ADVANCE.

2.1k · December 4, 2003

I think we can beg and plead all we want, but I don't think it's going to happen. I think it's obvious like when they removed the img tags from the sig lines. Reason, Jeremy stated they were receiving numerous complaints from people about them and the time it takes to load a page. Of course we discussed it here in the forums and I think it was said that it was by people who don't post in the forums and there were some other discussion about people won't post in the forums, but I can't remember exactly on what topic that was about. I believe it was on the heavy censor...er moderation. The excuse that was used of slow downloand tiem, well all that happened right before the forums went down and they had to get another server. Obviously it was different problem than stated. Of course there was speculation of the real reason, but that's something else.

I don't think an off topic forum is going to happen here. At the most i would see him loosening the grips of the moderators, but then again they did rename this forum just yeaterday. I guess it was because people kept referring it to "General" and not "Geocaching".

But the good news is, that there are other places you can go to talk off topic and even some geocaching too...

December 4, 2003

.....and the would include, www.woodsters.com....which has a great off-topic section.

December 4, 2003

Hey I just visited www.woodsters.com, and I also register at www.woodsters.com. Did you know that they have an "Off Topic" forum @ www.woodsters.com

4k · December 4, 2003

Well, none of you will listen to me about the off-topic area Jeremy already has on this site, so maybe you'll join some of your own regulars over here at another off-topic site that is related to geoCaching and doesn't have the heavy moderation you'll find on this one:

http://geocaching.sthomas.net/forums

errrrrrrr, ummmmmm............. goeCaching

9.4k · December 9, 2003

Maybe 'General' should just be listed at the bottom of the forum list. That way visitors will see 'Getting Started', 'Travel Bugs', 'CITO', etc to learn about the game. When they're interested in getting to know other Geocachers, they can scroll to the bottom of the forum list and meet us.

EDIT: Actually, it's called 'Geocaching Topics' now, which is redundant since all the other forums deal with Geocaching topics as well.

Edited December 9, 2003 by Team GPSaxophone

1.1k · December 9, 2003

I didn't have an opinion. I was annoyed by what I perceived as troublemakers. Then my "Can't we all get along?" thread got closed. I still see no reason why this was done. So I asked a question: Am I a customer or a guest? Not happy with the answer or attitude I got from Jeremy. Hoping TPTB do something to make me feel like a customer. Until then, I will bite my tongue and try to enjoy the forums. Until a certain TPTB posts some hateful, condensending snide post and I get mad again.

PS - I can't recall anyone ever crying freedom of speech. It's about customer service to me.

24.7k · December 9, 2003

...
Jeremy has stated Over and over.

That there will be no off topic forum.

What part of NO are you having problems with or is the normal thing where if its not the answer you want you keep asking again and again. (this is not an attack, just stating known facts)

Accept it. it is not going to happen. Give it up. go caching....

As new cachers come on board, the new people will time and again say "hey how about an off topic area" They will do this even if the people you are talking about now, quit asking.

They will do this over and over and over until even forum old timers are sick of it.

Newbies are like an endless wave washing upon the shores of geocaching.com. If you say no now, in two weeks it's outdated and time for another one for the newbies who missed the previous "NO".

Remember we have to keep those topics fresh, cause they sure aren't going to go away!

3.5k · December 9, 2003

These threads sure do give me tiredhead. Will they ever stop?

Go outside find some caches for cripes sake!

1.4k · December 9, 2003

If some people could actually accept the fact that conversation needs to stay on topic and didn't spawn 900 "They closed my last thread because they just like closing threads, I dare them to close this one because they are oppressive jerks, all this despite I am knowingly posting off topic but I know if they close this off topic thread after I have criticized them for being oppressive jerks that they will look even more like oppressive jerks" threads a day, I'd love it.

What I'd love to see is the chums that feel the need to clutter the boards with OT posts to find their regional or local boards and get to know each other there. Or go to another site that is built for off topic bantering.

Banter between friends is not bad, but it's been made pretty clear that only on-topic posts are welcome here. Having an outlet to horse around with friends while you're bored at work is not a function they wish to support.

4k · December 9, 2003

If some people could actually accept the fact that conversation needs to stay on topic and didn't spawn 900 "They closed my last thread because they just like closing threads, I dare them to close this one because they are oppressive jerks, all this despite I am knowingly posting off topic but I know if they close this off topic thread after I have criticized them for being oppressive jerks that they will look even more like oppressive jerks" threads a day, I'd love it.

Would that long of a title actually fit in the message boards?

December 9, 2003

So, just when is this topic going to be closed?

December 9, 2003

So, just when is this topic going to be closed?

It's a Catch-22, of course.

If The moderators close this topic, they run the risk of a half dozen new threads whining about how mean they are. If they leave it open, someone else may post threads complaining that this one is allowed to continue when others were shut down.

If they simply expect everyone on the forums to act like adults and keep matters from getting out of hand, they are sure to be disappointed...

December 9, 2003

That why they need an Off-Topic section in their forum !

December 13, 2003

NAVDOG Wrote:

The problem is some people want these forums to be their form of personal entertainment.

I don't see it as a problem

I used to come into the forum to get some pretty good laughs along with informative discussion.

I see from this thread, that good spirited debate is still permitted, but isn't that entertainment as well?

I have very few Geocaching opportunities available to me in Northern Japan and get into the forums to stay in touch with the sport and culture.

I can recall sitting at this computer monitor with tears in my eyes from laughing so hard at some of the old off the wall posts that have since been forbidden.

I stand at the crossroads now of determining whether to buy into a membership or not. I guess I will discuss this with the commitee in my mind.

Domo Arigato

24.7k · December 13, 2003

These threads sure do give me tiredhead. Will they ever stop?
Go outside find some caches for cripes sake!

Ok you win. Your avitar has me laughing so hard I can barely type. I better post a log or two from a few caches I'm behind on....

Edited December 13, 2003 by Renegade Knight

December 13, 2003

I have to say there is alot that I learned in the last 7mos of caching and forum watching that I wouldn't have because it may have not been in the "rules". I know cachers that do it only once in awhile and they do things that some people don't like, things that aren't in the "rules" but you learn from talking to others or reading forums. I'm wonder if a person just coming into the forums would be as educated? There were GOOD things discussed before that didn't have to do with caching directly but maybe indirectly.

Strict Geocaching Talk

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