I'm Moving On.

7.2k · December 3, 2003

It has been brought forcefully to my attention the forums and the politics of geocaching.com has taken up too much of my time. My desire to contribute to my recently found hobby has been met with much resistance. The time these challenges have taken away from other, valuable areas of my life have been costly. Therefore, I'm sidestepping many of these issues and moving on.

This does not mean I'm leaving and never coming back. Nor, does it mean that I'm archiving my caches. I will not insult my fellow cachers by making such statements when I know it's not true. I will not punish my fellow cachers by taking up my caches. This is not a knee jerk reaction. I have thought about this long and hard. It means I've outgrown geocaching.com and am ready for the next step.

While I feel geocaching has some inherent flaws that may cause a meltdown in general, I truly enjoy the pastime. I enjoy seeing sights that others have been thoughtful enough to share. I enjoy the challenge of the hunt. Mostly, I relish the time I get to spend with my wife away the worries of life. What I don't enjoy is the arbitrary restrictions placed on me by TPTB here at gc.com.

No, I'm not talking about not being able to put caches on private property without permission, putting caches on active railroad tracks, or a host of other commonsense and sensible issues. I'm talking about the proximity restrictions, so-called commercial caches, and others things that seem to not be an issue in letterboxing--a hobby that has been around for many more years that geocaching. Actually, it was one day that I was mulling over the similarities and differences of the two pastimes that sparked my critical look at geocaching.com.

One of the main differences between letterboxing and geocaching is where you get your clues. With letterboxing, the main place is letterboxing.org, however, you can literally get your clues anywhere. With geocaching, unless you know about the other sites you pretty much think gc.com is the only place to get them. Gc.com doesn't encourage alternatives, in fact they squash it. Yes, recent changes to the forums have allowed folks to post the names of other sites, but that was not the case before. Mention a competing site and your post was moderated.

On the subject of mentioning other sites, some have asked why should gc.com allow mention of other sites? I ask, "why not?" Pepsi commercials many times will feature Coke in their ads. They highlight the differences, not try to deny they even exist. The geocaching.com site is far superior to other sites. Most people would use gc.com over any other existing site. But, if gc.com policies weren't so restrictive and TPTB were more responsive and accomodating, this post wouldn't even exist. (If it doesn't get deleted, that is.) TPTB that given me a reason to go.

I get the distinct impression that TPTB here at gc.com only want people to get their cache clues here at gc.com. They would perfectly happy if there were no other sites. In fact, they have taken steps in the past to make that statement true. They, in essence, want to play god with your and my hobby. They want to set all of the rules and they will hear nothing of dissent. This is evidenced by the fact we still don't have stats, either on or off site.

This post is not about debating the issues of why I'm moving on. It's to inform.

I'm moving on. I will continue caching and I will continue to use the services of gc.com I've paid for. Beyond that, I have started taking steps to ensure people have alternatives and know about them. In the not too distant future, cachers will understand that gc.com is not the only place get cache clues. Actually, more than that, gc.com will not have all of the caches. I will be crossposting all of my caches to the alternative sites and many of my future caches will not be posted here. I'm sure as more people become disgruntled with gc.com they will follow suit. Cachers will soon learn in order to find all of the caches in their area they will have to visit other sites.

Not only that, cachers will soon learn that they no longer need to abandon a cache that doesn't get approved here. Other listing sites and even going "private label" are alternatives. It will become easy to "get past" gc.com restrictions. TPTB will, in turn, either change their policies or accept they don't hold a lock on cache listings.

Until we see each other on the trail,

Signed,

Tired With Geocaching.com Politics

PS: One last thing. Many will probably take issue with my statements and say I'm trying to undermine Irish's revenue. My take on this is, Irish is setting this site up to be "The Official Global GPS Cache Hunt Site." That has been at the top of the windows ever since I can remember. Being the official site of something tells me, and I'm sure most people, that it's the "controlling" site, they make policy and rules. Read: "...for the game, not just this site."

If this is true then only one man controls this whole game, your whole passion.

...and that's not something I can accept.

7.2k · December 3, 2003

One more thing.

Don't misconstrue this into I have problems with any of the approvers. My local approvers have been nothing but helpful. I do applaud them for the work they do. I don't envy them their job.

I do thank them for everything they've done for me.

CR

1.4k · December 3, 2003

Ummmm, bye?

6.5k · December 3, 2003

Therefore, I'm sidestepping many of these issues and moving on.

All I can say is "happy trails"

December 3, 2003

Best wishes and hope to see you on the trail.

~erik~

1.4k · December 3, 2003

Ignore the sarcasm of others CR.

Similar things will happen elsewhere. I'm certain of it.

*****

6.7k · December 3, 2003

Why do suicides always feel the need to explain their innermost feelings in long winded goodbyes, spatter all over everyone?

You're gone? So be it. Bye, but don't do this hoping we'll miss ya when you're gone.

6.5k · December 3, 2003

Why do suicides always feel the need to explain their innermost feelings in long winded goodbyes, spatter all over everyone?
You're gone? So be it. Bye, but don't do this hoping we'll miss ya when you're gone.

Unknown is better??

(I don't see this as grand standing....)

1.3k · December 3, 2003

If I understand your posting, you will still be finding caches, just not placing caches or participating in the forums. That's quite normal, actually. Lots of geocachers do only that. They're the unseen (except for their logs)masses. I think it's healthy to take a step back now and then and disengage from the inner circle of the website and just enjoy the hobby, however it goes.

1.4k · December 3, 2003

TheAlabamaRambler wrote:
Why do suicides always feel the need to explain their innermost feelings in long winded goodbyes, spatter all over everyone?

You are way, way, way over the line here. Your post should be deleted, you should be given a 20% warning and your member should be moderated for that asinine comment.

*****

Edited December 3, 2003 by Jomarac5

1.4k · December 3, 2003

Hey stop talking about other people's members! This is a family forum.

Edited December 3, 2003 by Nurse Dave

December 3, 2003

Well said, CR. See you on the other sites. As for the snide comments above mine, er... nevermind - you probably know what I would say about them.

December 3, 2003

Sweet home Alabama!

December 3, 2003

Why do suicides always feel the need to explain their innermost feelings in long winded goodbyes, spatter all over everyone?
You're gone? So be it. Bye, but don't do this hoping we'll miss ya when you're gone.

WHAT?

December 3, 2003

In the not too distant future, cachers will understand that gc.com is not the only place get cache clues.

From a standpoint of the greater good of the sport of geocaching, I think that this is ultimately a good thing. If geocaching.com is not satisfactory to a person, then by all means they should find or create an alternative that is. TPTB will have to decide wether the attrition rate justifies changes.

While I agree with some of what CR says, I disagree with the overall tone. Maybe it's just because I'm new here, maybe it's because I've administered public discussion forums in various formats before (and would *not* volunteer for that job again), but I plan to stay with the current site... at least for the time being.

2.5k · December 3, 2003

Bye CR,

I for one will miss your posts and the ideas I've seen posted here with your Sissy and CR account. In particular, when the site was being revamped (I personally liked the old layout), you had posted some great artwork in the way the cache listings could be displayed (the one with the colored stars for terrain/difficulty).

That design made so much sense and is still better than any of the improvements I've seen. It's too bad that nobody took advantage of your hard work and the thought you put into what you had to offer.

Anyway, take care and if I'm in your neck of the woods, I'll definately seek out your caches.

Edited December 3, 2003 by cachew nut

2.3k · December 3, 2003

I've enjoyed reading your posts in the past and thought they were usually level-headed and well thought out.

Hope you enjoy the hobby without the stress!

Happy trails CR.

December 3, 2003

Why do suicides always feel the need to explain their innermost feelings in long winded goodbyes, spatter all over everyone?
You're gone? So be it. Bye, but don't do this hoping we'll miss ya when you're gone.

Educate yourself about the whole situation before making such a disrespectful and shallow responce. CR has been fun to read and very informative. He has answered many a newbie's monotonous question with helpful advice. He (as Sissy-n-CR) posted so much because he cared about the game, not this site.

Take care CR, find the caches, and enjoy the sunsets...

1.3k · December 3, 2003

Bye, CR. I have enjoyed reading your posts, both the ones I agreed with, and disagreed with. I hope you continue to enjoy caching in whatever capacity you choose. Good luck on your next hunt.

4k · December 3, 2003

What more can I say that hasn't been said? Yeah, I think gc.com is going to have to face the music when it comes to competitive sites. It's just a matter of time. I like the idea of cross-posting to some extent, but it also has a few problems that I'm not prepared to discuss intelligently at this time. I've got a virt that I have been trying to get posted for about 3 weeks now, just an old tree with lots of history as a landmark for the settlers moving west at the turn of the LAST century. The approver wants to make it into some kind of Harry Potter thing with the "magical powers" of the tree bending time and space....blah blah blah. It's a neat old tree, for Pete's sake! It doesn't need any made up story! If ya get a chance, send me some links for other gc sites so that I can use them as well for other ideas I have for caches.

Take care, enjoy the hunt, live long and prosper!

errrr, ummmmmmm.......... geoCaching

5.3k · December 4, 2003

It has been brought forcefully to my attention the forums and the politics of geocaching.com has taken up too much of my time.... Therefore, I'm sidestepping many of these issues and moving on.

Coyote, I've done the same thing. A couple of months ago I got very exercised about the attitudes of GC.com and the way that cache hiders are treated. But then I had a chance to go away for a few weeks and do some actual important work, and I realized how much the whole thing is a tempest in a teapot.

As a result, my caching has slowed down enormously, but I am enjoying each individual cache that I do more than ever before. And I mostly avoid the forums, which have become almost useless.

One of the great things about geocaching for me has been the people I have met through it, and one of the best ways to communicate used to be the forums. But I am now using IRC much more, and finding that better in a lot of ways.

GC has been responding to customer pressure. They have changed the guidelines to be much more respectful, and I appreciate that. I think your insight that true competition is needed is a good one. What we really need is a non-commercial body to set the "rules" for geocaching. No matter how well-intentioned the people, a commercial entity setting rules is never a good idea in the long term.

December 4, 2003

Fizzy, does that mean some of the rest of us have a chance at FTF ? Ahh how my wife and I have cursed your name!

Seriously though, some perspective is a wonderful thing. Mrs. CC and I only joined a few months ago, and as such have avoided much of what many of the original folks have had to go thru. I've got to say, the current version of GC.com has been an amazing tool to get us going! It couldn't have been eaiser to learn about and go geocaching.

Take from it what you can, go somewhere to get what you can't. All the while, keep getting off that couch, keep getting outside and keep seeing what our amazing planet has to offer (before we destroy it). When you think about it in those terms, the website you use becomes somehow less important.

Mr. CC

2.2k · December 4, 2003

it's their site, they can do what they want with it, right or wrong. if i don't like the rules

of the house, i go home, or to someone else's.

2.7k · December 4, 2003

The only way the other sites are going to be useful is if people post caches to them. I registered on one of them and the 2 caches they listed in my area were both long gone.

A site with 100 caches per COUNTRY doesn't do a person with over 100 finds much good.

If people want alternatives, the'll have to start posting on the alternative sites so they will have enough listings to be useful. If everyone who is concerned about GC.com's policies would duplicate list their caches on the other sites, they might have a choice.

I have not seen the need to do so...yet.

The hard, fast rule of .1 mile is a concern to me... it should be negotiable.

I think I, too should spend less time posting and more time caching. Oh well, "good intentions" and something about a road...

2.1k · December 4, 2003

One of the ideas I have heard bantered about is the idea of keeping cache listings on a non-commercial location (such as a donated server or your own web listings) and it would be kept in such a way that any listing service (like GC.com) would poll that location and get your info for your cache if it met their criteria (such as not being a locationless for this site...while another site might list it because it is).

GC.com would only lists the caches meeting its criteria, but others would be able to list any and all of those as well as any others GC.com decided not to list. This way every listing service had a fair shot at getting all of the same info or a specific subset particular to their desires.

It's a good idea, but since GC.com isn't likely to give up its monopoly/copyright on the caches currently listed here (aka almost all of them) then it would be up to each individual to do something similar to CR and list it elsewhere voluntarily. Since my guess is that more than 50% of the caches listed here wouldn't be copied over to a new server/personal webpage in this manner....this pipe dream will have to wait for a newer day.

4k · December 4, 2003

good point, juggler.......and the couple posts prior to yours also made good points.....perseverence may just make the mark we're after!

errrrrr, ummmmmm............... geoCaching

1.8k · December 4, 2003

CR -- maybe we are taking this 'game' too serious, sometimes. You appear to be a creative and imaginative person. Qualities that Albert Einstein thought were more important than knowledge, please don't stay gone for long. Go, take a break, and come back to join us.

2.1k · December 4, 2003

Good post CR!

As you stated (in resemblance to letterboxing) and another or two stated about alternatives...I think there needs to be an arbitrary list of places to get clues to caches. If folks will send me email addresses of places that list caches, i will post them on my site. I agree, alternatives are as good as what you make them. Are you more in favor of a website or more in favor of reaching as many potential finders of your caches?

Please sned me those website addresses!

38.2k · December 5, 2003

A couple of months ago I got very exercised about the attitudes of GC.com and the way that cache hiders are treated.

I don't get it. CR and Fizzymagic seem to have all sorts of problems with cache approvals and the way cache hiders are "treated".

Yet there are thousands of caches out there, so obviously a lot of people are placing caches without a problem. I just placed my 60th cache. 60 caches, with zero approval problems and as far as I can tell, I've been treated just fine. What am I missing?

Edited December 5, 2003 by briansnat

4.8k · December 5, 2003

I don't get it. CR and Fizzymagic seem to have all sorts of problems with cache approvals and the way cache hiders are "treated".

With all due respect (and a lot is due) I didn't really get that from their posts in this thread. Although I suppose I can see why you thought the undertones for that were there in CR's post. I didn't see it at all in Fizzy's????

Regardless, CR I have enjoyed many of your posts here. I wish you the best of luck.

December 5, 2003

Great post, CR. I'll miss your posts here - as I remember, you're one of the most, if not the most, thoughtful and level headed persons in these forums.

I agree with just about everything you said. Maybe some people have noticed that I haven't been around as much (or maybe not). The reasons are the same as why you're bowing out.

Take care, and I'll see you on the other side.. er.. sites. :rolleyes:

5.3k · December 5, 2003

I don't get it. CR and Fizzymagic seem to have all sorts of problems with cache approvals and the way cache hiders are "treated".

You're absolutely right. You don't get it.

By the way, I've never had any troubles with cache approval. I do have trouble with the disrespect shown to cache hiders by TPTB. Since, as far as I can tell, you share the same attitude toward your fellow cachers, I'm not surprised that you don't see it.

1.3k · December 5, 2003

...there are thousands of caches out there, so obviously a lot of people are placing caches without a problem. I just placed my 60th cache. 60 caches, with zero approval problems and as far as I can tell, I've been treated just fine. What am I missing?

Not sure... when you find it can you let us know? We don't have that many hides (yet) but have had no problem gaining approval. Once we did clash with the guidelines slightly, but our friendly neighbourhood approver gave us positive feedback and advice, allowing us to rethink, improve and gain approval. The resulting cache was way better than the original submission, so we say hats off to the approvers.

Why would anybody want 2 caches within 500 feet of each other? W don't see the point of that at all, and we're expecting someone to flame on this, but how difficult would the sport be? We like the walk, the hunt, the thrilll of the find... we would not enjoy driving to a small wooded area and collecting 50 "finds" in an hour.

We know all about letterboxing, and over here at least it does have its restrictions too. Letterboxing.org is a quaint little site, but where's the UK and worldwide aspect to the game? Geocaching is truely global, and as such needs some restricitions placed up on it. We'd wager that if we all signed up to letterboxing.org and started submitting boxes we'd soon be hit by some new guidelines.

Edited December 5, 2003 by NattyBooshka

38.2k · December 5, 2003

You're absolutely right. You don't get it....I do have trouble with the disrespect shown to cache hiders by TPTB.

Well since I don't get it and haven't experienced this disrespect, would you explain for my benefit?

Since, as far as I can tell, you share the same attitude toward your fellow cachers, I'm not surprised that you don't see it.

Kindly provide examples. Perhaps I should be changing my ways, so I can be as angry and disaffected as some people here. I'm missing out on all the fun.

Edited December 5, 2003 by briansnat

1.6k · December 5, 2003

Okay, so my curiousity got the better of me and I had to peek at my "Swansong." I was a little concerned at first because my post wasn't buried on page 3. I was sure to see plenty of "...and don't let the door hitcha in the behind" posts.

On the contrary, I was really surprised at all of the support I've received. It's almost enough to make me stay, but my reasons for going are still valid.

While this site will no longer be my primary hangout, I still have caches here and I have questions of TPTB, so I still have to come back occasionally for a visit. Maybe, sometime I'll even pop in for a post or two in the lighter threads.

I had an idea about how I charactarize my relationship with gc.com. I'm a step parent of two teenagers--one is 16 and the other is just short of 18 (Yeah!). It's almost like the Freaky Friday with me and gc.com. TPTB are the not so perfect parents and I'm the teenager. I just can't live by the house rules anymore and I've got to move out.

It's kind of funny. My step son moved out on his own a few months ago, works full time and is finishing school in the evenings. His dad helped him get a car, but it was "an old man's car." So, when he blow the engine in it, a "friend" sold him an '89 Camaro. Bright red, stick. He was so cool! But it had problems and has been in the shop more than on the road. Now he has to bum rides to work and school and rely on his girlfriend to go out. Sissy asked him, "what's it like to be a grownup?"

"It sucks," was his rely.

I'm sure it's going to be the same with me. TPTB really did a good job introducing me to the sport of geocaching. They made it really easy to list and find caches. Kind of like a parent raises a child.

But, I'm no longer a child. If I have reasons to do something, I don't need or want people telling me no. I understand why the vast majority of the rules are in place. I also understand that when working on a scale such as this, many times it comes down to the lowest common denominator. I would never knowingly put myself or a finder in legal trouble, I research my locations fairly well. I am sensitive to the public view of geocaching and will never knowingly compromise it. However, some of my ideas push the envelop. I have had caches denied, the important one modified to work within the guidelines--I'm still not satisified with the result but it's workable. By far, most of my caches have been approved without question. I knew some of my ideas would not work here at gc.com so I didn't submit them.

Anyway, like I said I'm not gone for good or absolutely. Sissy doesn't feel the way I do so you'll likely see a few more caches listed here. Obviously, they will "gc.com safe."

However, mine might just push the envelop over the top. Regardless of if they are innovative or not, I want to place caches on my terms. I feel no one should interfere with the agreement I make with whoever manages the property I place my cache on. It should be between me and them only.

See you on the trail!

CR

December 5, 2003

See ya....... I'm going geocaching.

Yeah, there are "other" sites for geocaching, but I still think this one is the best ran and the most informative.

As the saying goes: "Your results may vary"

1.2k · December 5, 2003

Take care CR, enjoyed tradin' posts with ya in the past, hope to see you on the trail.

Now go forthe and Geocache!!!!

Mac

:rolleyes: :unsure: :blink:

4.5k · December 6, 2003

Guess i just dont get into this "forum" thing as much as others. I cant believe that for some people this is so dang important in their lives and that it can cause such heartache. We may get our feelings hurt, we may get upset when our caches arent approved, and we may find some people that are annoying as all get out on here, but to get so distraught about it sure makes ya wonder! Sure i enjoy reading posts and sometimes making replys. I sometimes agree with what is said, somtimes not. WHAT IS THE BIG DEAL? There are alot more important things in life (at least there should be) and this is not a place to take anything that seriously! If this is your life then you might want to think about getting professional help

4.5k · December 6, 2003

Now im really upset . My last post shows me as just a non-paying Geocacher instead of a Premium Member and is making me look baaaaaaaad!!! Im quitting too :bad: :bad:

December 7, 2003

CR - I have enjoyed your posts in the past. Sorry you have come to this point; glad you will be checking in from time to time, and that Sissy will still be around. Good luck, but remember the old saying: " Be careful what you wish for, you might just get it". And bear in mind what you said above about your stepson - once he got away from house rules and on his own, in his words "It sucks".

December 8, 2003

CR, I hope this doesn't affect the order I just placed from you...

December 9, 2003

Why do suicides always feel the need to explain their innermost feelings in long winded goodbyes, spatter all over everyone?
You're gone? So be it. Bye, but don't do this hoping we'll miss ya when you're gone.

I agree. You want to go? Go. Whatever. Why do you feel the need to explain your actions to us?

2.1k · December 9, 2003

No offense, but why did you feel the need to tell us that? It's pretty simple. Communication of ideas and thoughts. Obviously, CR has some issues that he wanted to explain as he has decided those ideas have him wanting to use a different website from now on. Obviously, you had issues with his posting about having issues.

It's all a matter of civil discourse and the courtesy of letting us know he's not ignoring us, he's left the room and walked away for now.

Welcome to CR's "moving on" topic. If you're done reading it, feel free to move on yourself and not return to this topic in the future...no need to muck about asking questions if you're not interested in hearing from the person leaving anyways.

N'est pas?

1.3k · December 9, 2003

I think it's rude, and uncalled for to take a "parting shot" at a person leaving the forums. When better to attack someone than a time where the possibility of a response is so remote? Yes, it is safest to insult someone after they have left a room, rather than do it to their face.

December 9, 2003

Do i not geocache enough to notice or just not hang out in the boards enough but to tell you the truth I'm not seeing the TPTB oppression to this level everyone loves to comment on.

Anyone want to fill me on this?

1.4k · December 9, 2003

Why do suicides always feel the need to explain their innermost feelings in long winded goodbyes, spatter all over everyone?
You're gone? So be it. Bye, but don't do this hoping we'll miss ya when you're gone.

I agree. You want to go? Go. Whatever. Why do you feel the need to explain your actions to us?

Wow. That sure gave this thread a shot in the arm. Well done.

Hey, I'm alright if you want to express your thoughts on the subject even if they go against the grain. At least you weren't rude about it.

Don't know if I can answer your question adequately, but perhaps it's just because they can. Or maybe they feel an alliance with several personalities on this board and just want to let their online pals know why they're not around anymore. I really don't know. I suppose it could be for one or more of many reasons. It's not my style but hey, who really cares?

*****

Geo 96DFV

4k · December 9, 2003

Do i not geocache enough to notice or just not hang out in the boards enough but to tell you the truth I'm not seeing the TPTB oppression to this level everyone loves to comment on.

Anyone want to fill me on this?

Hey, J5, ya got that can opener I loaned ya?

{Edited to keep the mood light}

Edited December 9, 2003 by Sparky-Watts

1.2k · December 9, 2003

I do tend to agree with Mudfrog about not letting this stuff get to you to the point of it disrupting your life or equilibrium, but I don't mind when someone posts the information that they are not going to post anymore..... if that makes any sense at all.

If I ever decide not to post for a while I'd actually consider it a courtesy to those I normally discourse with to post some kind of notice saying what the situation is and why I won't be on for a while. Just some information, like, "Hey, I've got a new motorcycle and I've decided to tour the nation totally disconnected from the internet for a while." Well, something like that, anyway.

If it helps someone to come online here and regurgitate the frustrations and feelings they have before taking a break, I have no problem with that, I have the ability to NOT READ IT if I don't want to. We've all seen this happen before with others, with about a 70% return rate within a few months to a year. Such is life.

Myself, I don't take this stuff seriously enough to even complain about this issue...lol.

Now go forthe and Geocache!!!

December 9, 2003

Do i not geocache enough to notice or just not hang out in the boards enough but to tell you the truth I'm not seeing the TPTB oppression to this level everyone loves to comment on.

Anyone want to fill me on this?

Hey, J5, ya got that can opener I loaned ya?

{Edited to keep the mood light}

Please

The game started as finding a container in the woods and signing the log using a GPS. If you want to evolve it into something it never was suppose to be make your own website and play your own way. I really think its the people that read the forums are the ones "grabbing their guns" in order to defend some territory they thought they had a right to defend.

editing posts and censoring - yeah it annoying but its not like everyone's posts have been changed to "All hail Jeremy".

Virtuals. I'm sorry but lame virts with no "wow" factor should not be approved. I still see a couple new ones come out from time to time, but once again I don't think virtuals were where geocaching was originally headed. Plus cheating seems to easy

Locationless. Cool creative locationless caches are cool to go out and find but c'mon when we had "Log a Water Tower" approved among other lame locationless I think something had to be done. I'm surprised no one came out with a "Log your right thumb" locationless.

The site looks good, it runs well, the approver in my area is great and easy to work with, and the boundaries that have been set help steer geocaching away from legalities such as abandoning caches placed on vacation or geolitter being placed 30 ft away from another cache.

I'm just not seeing such oppression that drives someone to post a huge diatribe explaining why they "just can't take it anymore" or "are putting it behind them like a bad habit". Its a game meant to enjoy, not to over analyze; not to get a degree in and become a paid professional in. Sometimes people forget Geocaching is supposed to be fun.

You can put that can opener down now sparky

Edited December 9, 2003 by pnew

1.3k · December 9, 2003

Lets not forget about those who work to make caching fun for the rest of us.

I'm Moving On.

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